Dear Acman3: I did not but seems to me that this one could be even better and I understand is compatible with the XLM: http://www.williamthakker.eu/ADC-RSA-Astrion-Original-Tonnadel_c10-13-201_p5316_x2.htm
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Griffithds and friends: These are my current experiences with the Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?ranlg&1313624221&&&/Clearaudio-Virtuoso-Wood-Cartridge-
Btw, Lewm you need to experience this cartridge, worth the effort.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Regards, Acman3: And thanks Danny, fingers are crossed. The errant Black Widow has an ADC XLM-11 Impr. on it now, a good combo. Until volume is turned up. The BW has never done this before. The resonance seems due both to the two near-by active subs and the small, untreated room it's now in. Too many hard surfaces but under the circumstances there's little I can do about it other than listening exclusively to tape or CD's. I like a challenge.
The TK7ea- good presence in the mids, convincing bass foundation (bass notes are seperate and insturments identifiable) and subtle but accurate transients with clear reponse in the highs. A non-fatigueing cartridge, a good one to listen to for long sessions. Be aware that in complicated passages it'll throw mud at your ears if setup is off. The TK7LCa stylus tracks at less VTF and sounds slightly more open than the ATN155lc. I've a suspicion the magnets are stronger, too. I anticipate you'll like it with the 155lc stylus but if you find TWO of the OEM Signet styli, don't forget your friends (but let me be the first to know). :)
Peace, |
Er Danny, If you DO find any OEM LCa styli......I may become a better friend than Timeltel?.......after all he already has one :^) I have a TK-7e which accepts either a No.2 or No.3 Signet stylus (the No.3 converting it to a 7SU apparently..... although why would Signet produce a separate body with TK-7SU printed on it as well?....perhaps the Professor could enlighten? I was also lucky enough to find a TK-7LCa body (without original stylus) which, with the 155LC stylus is as close to the original LCa (according to Timeltel) as one can come. This is currently the King in my collection :^) Looking forward to your impressions? |
Hi Halcro, I'm not sure what a #2 or #3 stylus is, but as I understand it a 7E and 7SU are the same body. They would have the complete designation printed on it just like a AT-155LC or 155ML. I'm told the 7E or 7SU can substitute a ATN 15/20 stylus. The SS might be the ultimate upgrade, although I never tried it. I see AT-15 bodies for sale once in a while. They're very nice. Your 7LCA can take any modern 440/120 stylus. That would include a 150MLX. I imagine the 155LC sounds great on there. I love those beryllium cantilevers. Regards, |
Regards, Halcro: Hi, Henry. Same generator, different stylus? AT15xe, sa, ss, etc. IIRC, cart mass and elec. specs are the same. Someone correct if wrong, please.
Good to hear you're enjoying the TK7LCa/155lc stylus. I'm finding it performs nicely on the Yammie HS1 10.5gm ebony headshell someone thought I should try, it is a most attractive combination to both the eye and ear. IMHO, ancient gear & etc.
Peace, |
Dear Siniy123: Through the Clearaudio Virtuoso Black Wood review you can read which are good part on my AT/Signet top model tests. Here it is the complete models:
all cartridges were tested in the AT-1503MK3 tonearm, all with 100 kohms alond 100-150 pf added on capacitance, positive VTA/SRA and AT recomemd VTF.
The TK10ML SeriesII and the AT-24 were mounted in the AT-LH13, the AT-ML 180-OCC and the 160 LC-OCC in the AT-MG 10 were the AT-20SS and the AT 155 LC in the AT-LS12. Was in these headshells were perform better.
As you can read on the Virtuoso review the TK10ML Series II along the ML 180-OCC are IMHO the better quality performers in that AT/Signet vintage models. Very near is the 20SS and the third step goes to the 160 LC-OCC where the 155LC as good it is IMHO has a lower quality performance level. Btw, these two latest models are not as good trackers as the three top models and it is not that were bad trackers because that's not the case both are very good but the top three are exceptional in this tracking regard.
I think that could be worth that you give a listening to the Clearaudio Virtuoso Black Wood, amazing performer for say the least.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Halcro: ++++++ " This is currently the King in my collection " +++++
Could be that the Clearaudio Virtuoso can change that status. Try to give you an opportunity to hear it, it is a low price current model with manufacturer warranty.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Timeltel: If you can give a try to the Virtuoso. Knowing you IMHO you will find it better than anything you own. Of course you can lose the stylus inter-change fun but as a " side " advantage you could achieve higher quality performance level from your audio system for improve your music own enjoyment.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
I was wondering where this thread could go, now that we have perseverated over nearly every good MM/MI made during the "vintage" years. Now I know. We can start all over with current and recent production MM and MI cartridges.
Raul, I was a little surprised to note the ease with which you have let loose of your previous venerable gods in favor of this new god. One good thing is that there need not be a race to find these on eBay. They are all readily available from dealers all over the world. Perhaps I need to unlearn my bias against Clearaudio products. IMO that (Souther) linear tonearm is an abomination. What about all the higher end Grado IM cartridges, still being produced? |
Dear Raul, The Virtuoso is indeed an AT. If you pull out the stylus plug you'll see an AT assembly with the 2 magnets. All the top Clearaudio MMs have identical specs (inductance and impedance), which means the generators are the same. There are some body differences with the Maestro, but they look insignificant. The big difference is the stylus/cantilever. Unfortunately only the AT3400 series, which includes the AT-95 share the same plug. Swapping styli requires transplanting. This has been very worthwhile for me. Thanks for the review. Regards, |
Hi Fleib, The No.2 and No.3 stylus are OEM styli still available from WilliamThacker with the 2 being elliptical and the 3 being Shibata. What puzzles me is why Signet would go to the trouble of elaborate screen-printing on the top of each cartridge body designating either TK-7E, 7Ea, 7SU and 7LCa when apparently they all share the same body and generator? A change of styli thus changing a 7E to a 7SU and a 7Ea to a 7LCa? Surely they could more easily have printed these designations on the swiveling stylus protector of each assembly much like Fidelity Research did with their FR-5 and FR-5E?
Dear Raul, Your enthusiastic review of the Clearaudio Virtuoso certainly is tempting me to give it a try? It is encouraging to find that manufacturers are finally offering top flight MMs at reasonable prices instead of the constant stream of LOMCs at ever more stratospheric prices.......although J.Carr seems to be bucking this trend by introducing LOMCs for Lyra, at 'down to earth' prices.
Incidentally, Michael Fremer is promising to do a review of multiple MM cartridges currently available. Hopefully the Virtuoso will be amongst them? |
Dear Lewm: +++++ " I was a little surprised to note the ease with which you have let loose of your previous venerable gods in favor of this new god. " +++++
ease?, do you think that was ease for me made that review after more than four years and 12K+ dollars and all my effort on all those vintage MM/MI cartridges that many of us are enjoying?, you can't be more wrong than that.
After be " touched " by the Virtuoso first than all I have to fight with my self part that support the vintage ones afight that was loosed from the very first moment due to the greatness of the Virtuoso but I can tell you that only because I first than all like to be honest with me I decide to share my experiences with all of you. The easy way could been stay silent and post/review nothing about but I'm not " made " for the easy-way but what is have to be.
Yes, my vintage cartridge hunt finish right now. There is useless with no sense to follow lookinf for when no one of my 80+ vintages can't even the in different league Virtuoso cartridge.
My hunt from here start to look for " something " that can outperform the Clearaudio Virtuoso Black Wood: nothing less, as I said makes no sense to me. I'm trying to " catch " levels of Excellence and the Virtuoso is my latest step to be nearest that target.
I have to test all my today MM/MI designs to know if the Virtuoso performance is unique or a solid trend with today cartridge designs, I hope could be in this way.
For years I supported that there were no significant advance in phono cartridge designs over the last 30-35 years. Well if the Virtuoso is a good example on what we have today ( I need to confirm it with other today cartridges. ) then I want to say that I was totally wrong on that subject because the Clearaudio cartridge is a clear advance that IMHO outperform in clear way any " thing " we know.
The world/universe/life is in constant movement with constant changes we can live for ever with those vintages, the Clearaudio gives me the opportunity to move on: welcome to this we have to move on to a better audio world.
Lewm, the King is dead: long live the King!. I already accepted after asimilate this " hard " fact.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Fleib: Yes, I readed somewhere and that's why I posted in the review, thank's to confirm it. I own the AT-95 but I only heard it in brief way and I have nothing important to remember but the subject is in the Virtuoso performance. I don't understand you very well: do you own the Virtuoso?
Btw, this Clearaudio is not a reesemblance on any AT cartridge I know on tone and balance quality performance level. As I posted AT was a good choice for Clearaudio because its skills and very high quality on design execution but IMHO the main fact/subject with this cartridge was and is the extraordinary voicing made it by Clearaudio: There was IMHO the main merit in the Virtuoso design because I can't think that this kind of performance " appears " at random.
The voicing on top cartridges is what makes the difference, two cartridges with the same motor and stylus/cantilever assembly can be " tamed " with different " taste " and different quality performance. Those hand calibrated cartridges means not only tight specs but different voicing tone/balance color.
Anyway, for me this Clearaudio sets new reproduction quality performance level standards. From this moment it is my reference against any other cartridge alternative.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
I would like everyone to, for just a moment, reread the title of this thread. It does not say prototype M/M's, nor does it say experimental M/M's. And it certainly does not say vintage M/M's. I want to hear an honest review of all M/M's. Old. New. What difference does it make when it was manufactured or by who or what day. If it is a M/M, lets hear about it. Evaluate it. Hunt it out and purchase it. Wear it out. Repair/replace it or buy the next jewel that we discover. Thank you Raul for your HONEST report on what you found. Anything other than that would have been a disservice to not just us, but to yourself as well. |
Dear Halcro: Please do it.
I'm trying to get a 2M Black to give a full listen in my system hopping to find out a trend on the great performance road build by the Clearaudio Virtuoso. Good that Lyra take that " lower price " road in favor of gives their customers high quality for a reasonable price.
About reviewers I can't trust in them any more. The Stereophile people gives B rank to the Virtuoso when the SS SG the SMMC1 and the Voice received all an A. IMHO my Virtuoso outperforms easy all them. I don't want to follow speaking on ST reviewers.
Regards and enjoy the music, raul. |
I have to add: untrusty reviewers.
R. |
Regards, Raul: Your opinions are never disregarded. Consequent to a small amount of seeking info. online.
ClearAudio Virtuoso: Description: Moving-magnet phono cartridge. Stylus profile: Not specified. (See below) Frequency range: 20Hz-20kHz. Output voltage (1kHz, 5cm/s): 3.6mV. Channel separation (1kHz): >30dB. Channel balance (1kHz): <0.2dB. Trackability: >90µm. Recommended tracking force: 2.0-2.5gm. Electrical impedance (1kHz): 660 ohms. Coil inductivity: 0.42mH. Load resistance 47k ohms. Load capacitance: 100pF. Cantilever: aluminum. Weight: 6.0gm.
Stylus contact area is given as 4 x 40 micrometers in this quote from Robert Weaver, "The Stereo Times", Aug 1, 2001: "This shape dates back to a late 1960’s Japanese design purchased by Peter Suchy" (father of ClearAudio's Robert Suchy, Robert was Weaver's source). This is consistent with a parabolic stylus. The electrical configuration would indicate the generator compares with the AT15, AT20, Shure Ultra VST-111, V15-V, Tech. EPC-207 and Nagoaka 200/300, some very good company and the extended cantilever is an interesting approach to MM cartridge design.
Raul, the only comment I found resembling even the slightest criticism was a single comment that one listener found the ClearAudio Maestro even better than the Virt.
P.S.: Thank you, Griffithds.
Peace, |
Dear Raul, I can confirm your hypothesis reg.the 'tuning' or the 'voicing' of an cart by the 'master'. A former technician by Benz was my guest in Holland for a week.We compared 6 different carts while I was in particular interested in two of them: the LP and the Ruby 3S. According to the 'technician' both carts have the same 'motor' and the only difference is the wood-kind for the corpus. Well they sounded different to me qua 'tonality' and I preferd the Ruby as more 'neutral'. So deed my Swiss guest. But I am still confused because of this so called 'burn in period'. The 'master' in casu must also possess some extraordinary capability to be able to know how the same, already 'tuned' cart, will sound after, say, 40 hours of actual use.
Regards,
|
Raul, Don't misunderstand me; I do admire your honesty, and I know you've exposed yourself to criticism by changing your tune so dramatically. That takes some courage. If you read back among these more than 4000 posts, you will see that once in a while in the early phases I raised the specter of the current crop of MM and MI cartridges, not to say that I knew they would be good but only to say that I wondered out loud about how some of them could compare to the vintage ones. At that point, you already had good things to say about a few of them (Nagaoka, Grado Amber The Tribute, and at least one or two more), and you delegated some to second tier status (SoundSmith's lesser offerings). I was then and am still interested in the top line Grados. New generation Garrott Bros. cartridges may be of interest as well. Also, top line SoundSmith. But it costs a lot more to experiment with those.
Have you thought about building a special edition of your phonolinepreamp with MM-only gain that woould include selectable resistive and capacitative loading? I think there is a niche market for that, especially now. |
It's a very romantic notion, to think that Peter Suchy sat around "tuning" this cartridge which he had made for his product line by AT, apparently. However, my guess is that there was a large dollop of luck involved, if the Virtuoso is as good as Raul says it is.
Dgriffiths, You were not with us from the beginning. (I don't think I was, either, but I came in a year or two before you.) In any case, and in contrast to what you write above, this thread HAS been about vintage MM and MI cartridges, on the premise that "they don't make them like they used to". So Raul's review of the Virtuoso is a bombshell of sorts, a teeny tiny bombshell perhaps. |
Hi Folks,
I am very interested in the links between the ClearAudio's and the very very basic budget AT's
They point to the huge potential of these generators, and the fact that the limitations are NOT related to the generators but are related to the stylus and the resonance control - ie the generator mounting - shell around the generator - and the headshell/generator interface, as well as the resonance control between generator and stylus - in this case with the stylus permanently adhered to the generator.
The Clearaudio is "Clearly" a custom hot-rodded Audio Technica. And the results are apparently appropriately high end.
Given that the Virtuoso is using an Aluminium cantilever - one does wonder how much potential there might be in a basic AT95.... Perhaps with the HE or Shibata stylus mounted...
Getting top results might of course require hand picking a body from 10 or 20 of them for the best balanced channels in both inductance and resistance domains.
I don't know how tight production tolerances are, so I don't know whether you would need 5, 10 or 50 to get a single one that is sufficiently tightly specced. Then there is the custom body to be built of anti-resonant materials (whether wood, metal or otherwise...)
When a professional company like ClearAudio produce something like this, they provide an excellent product for the well heeled - and the obsessive - but they also shine a light on a direction in which the ardent tweaker can head.
I also find it interesting Raul, that as per your usual practice, you listened to the Virtuoso at 100k ohm loading.
So I would like to point out, that regardless of the designers voicing intent - you re-voiced it to your personal preference.
After testing a lot of cartridges, I am finding that 100k seldom provides a neutral response across the frequency range, it almost invariably provides a substantially rising high end.
On the other hand it does tend to fill in the lower high end trough which appears to be common to all the MM's I have tested. (between about 8k and 13k or thereabouts) So you trade off boosted highs (13kHz +) in exchange for improved neutrality in the 8k to 13k range.
This will artificially boost those frequencies that the older ones among us are less sensitive to (perhaps why it is popular?) - in addition to providing neutrality in a frequency range that we can all hear.
But I do wonder whether we can have our cake and eat it too - achieve both goals and a flat f-r across the range - using a hybrid digital/analogye system with digital EQ....
bye for now
David |
Hi Halcro, That's just the way AT designates their carts. The complete model # is on top. Unlike Fidelity Research, AT has produced hundreds of models over the years. There is even a duplication or two. When the Signet line was redesigned, if there was just a TK7 on top the new version would not have a stylus interchangeable with the older ones anyway. The stylus/plug is different on the LCA and I think the Ea. The older ones use the same stylus as an AT-15/20 and the newer ones - the 120. At that time AT started using the modern 440/120 style plug on the TOTL. BTW, I think if you cut away the plastic wings from any AT stylus and use it like a Clearaudio plug, you can get better performance. I put a little bit of tack around the plug at the bottom of the body. Sometimes the fit isn't quite as tight as I like. Here's a thread on the subject with pics etc. www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=88878.0
Regards, |
Dear Timeltel: That was the stylus shape in 2001 not today that is a little different as you can read in the review.
My experiences with the Virtuoso and Maestro shows me that as good the Maestro is the Virtuoso is IMHO bettter performer with out that added warm in the full wood body in the Maestro. Please go to the posts in the review where you can read something about.
Anyway, Clearaudio done with those two MM cartridges.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear friends: If any of you are interested this is a trusty source with good price:
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgcart&1317543188&/Clearaudio-Virtuoso-wood-
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Lewm, My version of the Virtuoso is the original one. Reviewed by Stereophile back in 2002. I bought my 1st one in 2003, after reading that review. Bought the 2nd one in about 2007 after unplanned sugery to the cantiliver. I had several M/C's at the time and my only M/M was a Ortofon M20FL. I had not heard how great the M20FL could be because of the unknown (on my part), tipped SRA requirement for this jewel. So to me, until the Virtuoso, M/C's rule the day. My top M/C is th Benz Micro Ruby III. I seldom use it because I truthfully, can not readily identify when it is in my system or when the Virtuoso in the system. They sound so similiar that I had to actually get up off my a-s and look to determine which on was playing. When one cost $3000, and the other $700, which one to use to me became a no brainer. Currently, thanks to this thread, my favorite is the Audio Technica 15sa with the 20ss stylus. This is by the slightest of margins I assure you. All three are so close, I would be hard pressed to rate then be 1,2,3. Rauls report has convince my that the new version of the Virtuoso is truly an improvment over my model. My model I think of as a vintage Virtuoso. Perhaps, there is truly a new King. I'm trying to get my hands on one of the Black Virtuoso's but the only web site that I have found that pictured it was in German. I do not speak German so ?????????. If someone has a lead on where to buy one (in English), please post. |
Hi Raul, Yes I own a Virtuoso, one with a red wood top. Unlike you, I bought it with a broken cantilever. I was curious about these carts and when I learned that AT was the OEM, I picked it up for experimentation. It shares the same stylus plug as the AT-95 but is a much more sophisticated cartridge. I'm sure Clearaudio worked with AT in developing the generator and voicing the cartridge. It seems to have about the lowest compliance of any AT MM. It's similar to an AT-95 or 7V. That would be around 6 or 7cu @ 100Hz. This was probably chosen for greater compatibility with heavier arms and necessitates relatively heavy VTF. I disagree with you about the voicing of the stylus/cantilever. Although the top carts have the best stylus etc, the generators seem to be identical with all Clearaudio MM. If you broke in a Maestro and then put the stylus on the Virtuoso, you might not be able to tell them apart. Indeed, if you sent out your Virtuoso for an exotic tip/cantilever, it might outperform a Maestro. We are in agreement about the Clearaudio MM though. They are excellent. I have a 7V stylus on mine and it sounds considerably better than my modified 95. The textures, detail and natural presentation are really outstanding. I'm looking forward to hearing it with a better stylus. Regards, |
Raul, In my playbook AT24, AT155LC, AT15SS outperform ATLM170 and AT160ML with more visceral and tactile sound. ATLM170 and AT160ML are better (gripper) trackers, but more subdued, thinner and less enjoyable. if I would transfer LP to digital I would use ATLM170 and AT160ML as more accurate, but for pure enjoyment with not a single problem during playback I'll pick first group.
Nowadays I'm not listening very ofter, may be once a week. So, when I seat down and listen I want instant gratification.
I guess our sound priorities are different.
Thanks |
Dlaloum/David,
Regarding your comment-- "one does wonder how much potential there might be in a basic AT95....Perhaps with the HE or Shibata stylus mounted..."
I feel the same way but haven't yet taken advantage of these options that are indeed available. LP Gear is marketing the AT95 upgraded with those two stylus choices, reasonably priced. They can be found in the "LP Gear cartridges" link on the cartridge page of their website. The Shibata version got a great review in Stereo Times if I recall.
Best, Jim |
Regards, Raul: You're correct. The first place I should have looked for info. concerning the CA Virt. was right here on A'gon. Nice review. The 5 x 80um figure was given elsewhere but as the earlier 4 x 40 contact area figure was provided by an unquestionably "knowledgable" source it was quoted. So, heads up!, revisions have been made.
There is a lot of interesting and sometimes heated speculation about the cart and it's paternity on other forums. Without direct info from CA or AT, the important thing to consider is that it's tuned by Clearaudio and equipped with a stylus assembly designed by and unique to the Virt. There is a reference to CA having purchaced Elac's cartridge mfg. equipment circa 1991, CA should be capable of producing these entirely in-house, as stated. IMHO the four-pole generator/V-magnet design is a very good one, performance rather than patents and liscencing agreements are this thread's concern. It does appear that this isn't your father's AT.
Peace, |
Dlaloum, Dean_man, Indeed you can improve the performance of most AT carts, but a 95 is not a Virtuoso and you won't get (IMO) a TOTL performance. I don't think the 95 even has OCC wire. The generators are different. The impedance of the 95 is 3.2K. My 95 is potted internally and has an aluminum top plate. It sounds really good but doesn't seem to have the finesse of the Virtuoso. The Jico shibata stylus for the 95 will fit the Clearaudios if the plastic wings are cut off. It too is outperformed by a high quality orig AT stylus transplanted in an appropriate plug. All the Jico styli for these are bonded with a straight alum cantilever. For those interested in transplanting, the link above (AudioCircle thread) has pics and discussion about it. I'll check the pics and maybe add some more. Regards, |
I have posted as a reply on Rauls review, the differences between the specifications of his cartridge, and the specifications right off the manual that came with my older cartridge. There were differences to be sure. I have just found my copy of the original review by Robert J. Reina Posted Dec 22, 2002 in Stereophile. I don't understand why, but the specs. he reports are the same as what Rauls are? Concidering the date, it should have been the same as what is printed in my Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood manual,(my 2 cartridges were bought one in early 2003 and the other in 2007). Raul, did you get a manual with your cartridge, and were the specs. that you posted from the manual or from what is being printed on the web sites? I do not understand why my manual for my cartridge from Clearaudio would be any different than what got reported in the press or on the web? Up until this discovery, I thought perhaps there has been 2 versions of the cartridge. Now I'm not so sure? |
Dear Siniy123: Well, the 170 performs different from the 180 , I own both.
No, I don't think we are so different because the 20SS goes up to the 160 as you I think the main difference is with the 155 in the other side there are different 160's I don't know if yours is the same that mine. You can check on the cartridge top plate and compare model with mine.
Regards and enjoy the music, raul. |
Dear Lewm: +++++ " to think that Peter Suchy sat around "tuning" this cartridge which he had made for his product line by AT, apparently. However, my guess is that there was a large dollop of luck involved.... " ++++++
that could be, whom knows for sure, but that does not change the fact that thank's to that great luck or voicing surged that great cartridge performer.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Raul,
BINGO! I found the sweet spot on the Virtuoso. Man, is it up in the back. You would think I was plowing for potatoes. My Vandersteen's have never disappeared before in my room. What a difference. I have to figure out a way to mark this setting or my days of rotating cartridges would be over. This is true heaven. |
Dear friends: Now that Fleib posted about his Clearaudio I remember where my sample came and in what condition.
I bought it through ebay Italy at very good price, seller/owner said that the cartridge was near mint condition but he thought there was a problem on cartriudge suspension and that's why the price.
I bougth it and ask him to send directly to Soundsmith ( I did not choose VdH as usually because VdH refuse to use aluminum cantilever and my thought was that if for any reason the CA need it a cantilever change VdH will use boron one and I don't want it that way. ). I let know to Peter about and he told me that needs repair, this are the emails between him and I:
+++++ " The Clearaudio can be rebuild with aluminum, or either of the two diamond Contact Line varieties with Ruby cantilever. The paperwork says “aluminum/elliptical” but it also said that you want advice. " +++++
mine: ++++++ " About to fix a cartridge I always think and want that the cartridge “ return “ to original condition, in the similar way that was designed. So I prefer that the Clearaudio be fixed with out the Ruby/contact line but in the way that could be nearest to the original. " +++++
Peter: +++++ " The original cantilever was aluminum with a very low cost bonded elliptical stylus. The Ruby with either of my contact line styli will give far better performance than the original parts. The Aluminum/Elliptical is also better than the original parts " +++++
Mine: +++++ " This can be fine: “Aluminum/Nude elliptical. " +++++
and this is what I have. That Peter " low cost bonded stylus " could have a little " weight " trying that I decide for the other two higher price options but I stay with the aluminum/elliptical option.
A friend of mine owns a fresh Virtuoso Red wood and I think that in the next days I could have on hand for a few hours to give it a listen. I think that if not for other thing both cartridges could sound different because different kind of wood that resonate and damp different.
After several weeks I received it but never mounted till a few days ago. Sometimes we have a " mine of gold " in front of us and we just don't see it.
Btw, through Internet I can't find Virtuoso's on sale by its owners, this could means that there are not many out there or that their owners are satisfied as Griffithds posted and whom I think goes for its third sample!
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Nandric: Well those " masters " knows a lot more than you and me.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Don: +++++ " I'm trying to get my hands on one of the Black Virtuoso's but the only web site that I have found that pictured it was in German. " +++++
almost all these people speak English so my advise is that just contact them and that's all. I'm sure you will have an answer in english too.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Dlaloum: Always are trade-offs. Mines on the 100k impedance subject is more for convenience due that in my Phonolinepreamp to change impedance means solder/unsolder resistors and I really can't take all that time when I'm testing so many cartridges. I can tell you that differences are not huge but I want to remember you that several vintage cartridges were designed to " see " 100k.
My Phonolinepreamp has an interesting option, I can choose between the RIAA inverse eq. with its decay on the high frequencies to infinite or stop that HF decay at 50k where with this option I can have a more " open " sound on the highs ( with out phase shift. ), as a fact I understand that in the recordings this is exactly what is done because the cut heads goes so hot over 50k that you have to cut at no more than 50khz. Several recordings came in this way. This is an option that I can use along 47k on impedance, I remember years ago I tested but for some reason I choosed ( maybe to conform exactly with the RIAA with out take in count what happened during recording proccess. ) 100k on impedance.
Anyway, trade-offs are part of audio.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Mea culpa - I was not paying attention... that 660ohm is impedance and not resistance... that should imply a resistance of less than 200ohm for a inductance of 420mH
This is quite exceptional - I know of not other cartridges that achieve a resistance that remarkably low for a substantial midrange inductance.
Given the wide disparity between original AT specifications and the Clearaudio specifications... in combination with the rumours of their own cartridge making equipment, it is perhaps not so far fetched to assume that there is some form of arrangement with AT, which includes AT supplying bodies, and some of the parts, but that CA perhaps manufacture their own coils?
An interesting cartridge....
Thank you Raul for raising its profile...
bye for now
David |
I just visited the Miller Audio website and pulled down the data from their testing of the Aurum Beta cartridge...
Based on those results... one observation is that the cantilever resonance is up past 20kHz (it peaks at 18k - no way of knowing whether it continues rising thereafter from that data... to me it looks like a peak between 21k and 23k)
Based on the test data, I estimate that Miller Audio are using a C load of around 400pf.
Now for the real kicker - the core response of stylus cantilever from 200Hz to 6kHz is the most linear that I have seen measured on any MM - they all tend to drop a bit, the best I've measured so far is the TK9... this is substantially better - I can only assume that this is related to the very low impedance.... reduced losses? That the results in a reduced droop between 8k and 15k (which is filled out by LCR resonance).
Looks like I will need to hunt down a stylussless Clearaudio MM for further experiments!
Looks to me like a very sophisticated body - with relatively ordinary styli.. (in a range of stylus qualities and materials).
This is not your grandads AT95!
bye for now
David |
Will I soon be able to buy a Technics for less than $700-$800? |
Hi Raul, thanks for sharing your Supex experience. The Supex sounded cleaner than my Nagatron, but the midrange was too bright and forward and overall sounded "boring" . I will give it more time and try to get it set up better, you say it competes with the AT 180 and other great cartridges so that means a lot, well worth what I paid for it then.
I can't adjust capacitance loading though unless I modify my preamp, how important is capacitance loading to hear the Supex sound that good? Other models I have sound great without added capacitance. I think my tonearms are good enough to hear the Supex potential.
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Maybe the prices of vintage cartridges will drop now since this current made Clearaudio is the new Raul endorsed "best" cartridge? I didn't trust buying the Clearaudio a couple years ago thinking it was just another overpriced cartridge made today. People who move on from the Clearaudio AT 95 to high end MC models must have defective ears because if the Clearaudio is so great why would anyone want or need to upgrade to something better? I am confused now.
Anyone want to buy a Technics EPC P100C MKIV, so I can buy the latest best cartridge ever made? I could sell off all my vintage "gems" and buy this Clearaudio model and be done? Hopefully the value of my "gems" doesn't depreciate too much.
The clearaudio AT 95 is a low compliance model, there goes the theory of high compliance cartridges being mostly better trackers with less distortions, right? |
Hi Raul,
I know a number of the cartridges we are interested in were originally specified for 100k, but I believe many of these had a dual specification. 100pf for CD4 and 40k for stereo.
When you think about it this makes sense: CD4 has a low pass filter set at 15kHz - the 100k setting provides a more neutral frequency response up to 15kHz - and what is happening after 15kHz is irrelevant (for the front channels) The rear channels are FM Modulated - so the main requirement is that there be minimal phase variation, and level is still above -15db at 50kHz.... flatness of response is not so important.
In Stereo mode, those same cartridge roll off the high end, providing a flatter response 20-20kHz, (eliminating or reducing the LCR resonance) - but response falls off relatively rapidly after 20kHz, and will be dramatically below -15db at 50kHz making it unusable for CD4.
I certainly understand the compromise you are making... and there is a very strong case to be made for the midrange and lower high end being far more important than the HF extreme.... and therefore 100k providing better results.
Sounds like your Phono stage implements the so called "neumann turnover" sometimes also called the "enhanced RIAA" EQ.... The JLTI I use does the same - I have implemented a calibration adjustment for when I do measurements, as the additional HF EQ does in fact have an impact on the high end (from 13kHz onwards the curve starts to diverge from standard RIAA - initially by around 0.1db, at 20k by 0.67db, 30k 1.7db - not totally critical for listening, but it does have an impact when measuring...
Bye for now
David |
Hi Travbrow,
Whats ya asking for that old Technics? |
This is somewhat disconcerting: Peter: +++++ " The original cantilever was aluminum with a very low cost bonded elliptical stylus. +++++
I guess it really doesn't make much difference but I doubt if CA makes these "in house". The cart is AT through and through. The generator and suspension, even the plug is classic AT. Impedance and DC resistance terms are often used interchangeably, but the DC resistance of mine is 408 ohms in 1 ch and 409 in the other. CA chose parameters that meet their high performance goals. The fact that the CA line use an AT 3400 series plug is also a cleaver choice. There are no high performance 3400 series styli available. CA's charge for re-tip is excessive. Not all CA MM have a wood top. Maybe they make the tops or finish the body work in house. I suspect Peter Ledermann will be getting many more of these.
It is probably the combination of body damping and cantilever/tip type, that determines whether it's optimally damped. The Maestro has more extensive use of wood. An aluminum cantilever is livelier. The greater excursions provide a more robust sound. A more rigid cantilever is more detailed and refined, all else being equal. More extended contact tips extract more High Freq info and tend to be brighter. I haven't tried an exotic stylus on my Virtuoso yet, but I suspect, going on Raul's impression, that the black wood Virtuoso or a non wood Maestro is the one to get. I also suspect that cu/arm match up might have something to do with with results. Regards, |
Amazing. The AT-95 is now Raul's best ever cartridge this month. Just put an aftermarket wood body on it, like the denon 103 and you have the world's best cartridge.
Must admit, the linn k9 ( another dressed up at95) sounds pretty good. Raul, please review this cartridge
Anyone sent Raul's review to clearaudio? Peter Suchy no longer needs to make his Goldfinger or any other lomc's.
I guess this really does prove that your systems tonal abilities and hearing really do drive one's choices of neutrality and musicality |
Dear Lewm: The ? in your post means that you are asking for opinions?, I hope so, this is mine:
if the Technics is the MK4 and stand alone carrtridge ( not headshell integrated. ) and in good operational condition then go a head if, too, your pocket is fat enough to get the Virtuoso is not then go for the CA.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
The King is dead , Long live the king.
Raul's findings with the Clearaudio are both a game changer and a non event. It is a game changer for those seeking the best of the best. It opens new arenas to explore. But now the cost of entry and possible failure are increased. Do we have to send them to Soundsmiths for better materials ect..? To the lucky ones who have been able to get great sound at a low cost it is possibly a non event. Do my cartridges sound worse today than yesterday?
It is all part of the search for the grail which some of us cannot chase due do to money, time constraints or both. In this thread we could take a chance on others ears at a low cost. When people ask about new cartridges in this thread we were normally unable to respond to them due to our not having heard them and the cost of being experienced in so many modern carts.
However I do look forward to learning about modern cartridges if this thread is able to make that transition.
Thanks to all, Danny
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