Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Who needs a MM cartridge type when we have MC?
Did not know about the "AT24". In fact, I had never heard of such a model name before now. Can you say more about it? How do you rank it? Thx. By the way, I was not asserting that the 981LZS is a world beater, because I know you don't care for it as much as you care for the HZS version. As you also know, I do like the LZS, a lot. It's one of my top 3 or 4. |
Regards, Nandric: It's the "is it science or is it art" discussion. From a post to this thread, quite a while ago: "Immanuel Kant (Kritik der Urteilskraftwork), maintained that taste is autonomous." If I'm allowed to paraphrase Kant, appreciation of art is subjective, a reflection of personal interpretation. There are those who see homogenization of value as detrimental. A distinction of "omnivore/univore" might be proposed. A division separates those who prefer a wide range of musical experience from univores, whose tastes are more restricted, (some might say refined). If the empiricist were to propose that an objective evaluation can define value, a subjectivist might counter that an exclusivist attitude results in rigid hierarchies, a narrow description of that which constitutes a rewarding experience and unnecessarily restrictive. Others assert that if what is heard does not reflect the original performance then the rendering is an artificial construct and of little value. It has been said that mathematical progressions are observed in Bach's compositions. Mozart's contemporaries characterized his works as frivolous and lacking in substance. There are those who find reason to appreciate either composer. Even with those having a formal appointment as "arbiter" assume a delicate, sometimes divisive role. It remains difficult to exonerate the arbiter in the event of a wrong judgement. Particularly (IMHO) in matters of taste. Those who would be arbiters of taste rarely receive the appreciation they earn. Peace, |
Regards, Nandric: It's the "is it science or is it art" discussion. From a post to this thread, quite a while ago: "Immanuel Kant (Kritik der Urteilskraftwork), maintained that taste is autonomous." If I'm allowed to paraphrase Kant, appreciation of art is subjective, a reflection of personal interpretation. There are those who see homogenization of value as detrimental. A distinction of "omnivore/univore" might be proposed. A division separates those who prefer a wide range of musical experience from univores, whose tastes are more restricted, (some might say refined). If the empiricist were to propose that an objective evaluation can define value, a subjectivist might counter that an exclusivist attitude results in rigid hierarchies, a narrow description of that which constitutes a rewarding experience as unnecessarily restrictive. Others assert that if what is heard does not reflect the original performance then the rendering is an artificial construct and of little value. It has been said that mathematical progressions are observed in Bach's compositions. Mozart's contemporaries characterized his works as frivolous and lacking in substance. There are those who find reason to appreciate either composer. Even with those having a formal appointment as arbiter assume a delicate, sometimes divisive role. It remains difficult to exonerate the arbiter in the event of a wrong judgement. Particularly (IMHO) in matters of taste. Those who would be arbiters of taste rarely receive the appreciation they earn. Peace, |
hi, does anyone have experience with the audio technica AT-E90? Like these pictures from hifido http://www.hifido.co.jp/KWART/G--/P0/A10/J/30-10/S1/M0/C14-83955-25876-00/ I found this in Japanese http://20cheaddatebase.web.fc2.com/needie/NDAtechnica/technicaindex.html http://20cheaddatebase.web.fc2.com/needie/NDAtechnica/AT-E90.html It states it as arriving in the 1984 (after the AT120-150 family but before the AT-ML140-180 family). And that it uses an elliptical stylus, LC-OFC and a beryllium cantilever. I'm bidding on one now since it caught my eye. Also the pictures of the stylus tip look very nice http://rsc2.saatscommerce.com/img58cc9edb99b7e_l.jpg Specs looks like once nicer AT engines Specification ■ Power generation method VM type Output voltage 5 mV / 1 kHz 5 cm / sec Needle pressure 0.95 to 1.55 g (optimum 1.25 g) Reproduction frequency band 10 - 23,000 Hz Channel separation 30 dB / 1 kHz Channel balance 1.0 dB / 1 kHz Compliance 9 × 10 -6 cm / dyne Load resistance 47 kΩ Internal impedance 2.5 kΩ Needle tip 0.12 oval ellipse Self weight 5.0 g On the topic of my Victor Z1/neoSAS, it is still sounding wonderful. Maybe has sweetened up a bit, but still sounds as great now as my first impressions a couple weeks ago. It has weight and drive like my DL110, delicacy and detail like my DL301ii and AT15Sa, but a very even natural tone (classical music sounds so live and natural) and better inner detail and imaging (position precision, separation, depth) than any of my other cartridges. And the lack of background noise is amazing: quiet passages are so inky black with still delicate detailed music coming through. Hearing the "rosin on the bow" of cellos and contrabass is unlike any other cartridge in my collection. I recently listened for the first time to a newly acquired 1964 London recording of Britten/Rostropovich Cello Symphony Op68; my first time to hear this piece and this recording. I've heard other Britten pieces but never this Cello Symphony. The Z1/neoSAS with this wonderful recording painted such a perfect performance that I was enthralled and felt like I was hearing a live performance and all I could do was be moved by the music and the performers and at no time did the system break the illusion that I was in a concert hall. Listening to familiar recordings, I think we easily fall into analyzing the performance, but with something completely new (new piece, new recording) all those previous expectations of what to expect are gone and we can fall into the performance and any tiny glitch can break that illusion and remind us that it is a recording. I'm sure there are better cartridges (turntables, arms...) but this Z1/neoSAS is working fantastically for me and exceeding my expectations. best Jessica |
Great Post Jessica, It's refreshing hearing these descriptions from a musician rather than an 'audiophile' (I assume you're a musician...?).... but with something completely new (new piece, new recording) all those previous expectations of what to expect are gone and we can fall into the performance So true... Regards Henry |
Thank you Henry. Yes I’m an amateur/hobby musician. My main instrument now is oboe, but I played Alto sax for about 10years in middle school and high school, and later picked up harp, keyboard a little. Also did DJing and a little dance music production for about 6years. Loving classical music these days mostly because of the oboe (and getting a little old for all night dj parties lol), but still enjoy various types of trance music. Almost went the professional musician route at University, but decided on the more practical ’scientist’ career. I’ve always preferred classical music on vinyl and especially the recordings from the 1960s and 1970s from London/Decca/Argos, Philips, and several German companies. Classical music never sounded ’correct’ to me on CD (16/44k) no matter how expensive the digital front end. Tokyo is actually wonderful for vinyl shopping. We have lots of stores around the city with huge selections, and each one specializes in different genre. We even have a Latin/bossanova specialty shop here. Most shops clean and graded the vinyl before going out on the floor and it’s easy to find excellent old vinyl in near mint condition for around $8-15, especially classical and jazz music. I think the Japanese always treated their records with care here. I think I’ll be going shopping this weekend searching for new stuff. One great thing about the Victor Z1/neoSAS and this thread is that it sort of killed my desire/curiosity about most of the new cartridges on the market. Only the nagaoka MP200, MP500 and shelter 501 (maybe 901) (and maybe an AT150sa or AT33PTG) are still holding some curiosity for me. Might get a Denon DL103 to round out my Denon collection someday. I can’t really afford/justify a dynavector or Lyra. Having much more fun looking for old, affordable gems on Yahoo auctions now. Also bidding on a Grace F8L now but have no idea where it will end up. Suspect it will be too expensive for me. Hope I can get that AT-E90 for a decent price. Cheers jessica |
Jessica, the F-8 is inferior model compared to F-9 line where the F-9F and F-9U were the best along with overpriced Ruby. But the luxury Grace Level II MR/MR model is much better than F-9 and should be added to the top MM list here, it is very rare. Took a long time to find NOS unit with spare NOS stylus. Another top of the line Grace is F-14 LC-OFC which is absolutely amazing MM cartridge. P.S. It is not a good idea to promote current auctions here, no matter it's ebay or other sources, people are bidding on various things and nobody wants a higher price in the end to outbid each other. Personally i have no interest in particular items, but it's just a common sence. Win first and then tell us. I remember on other record collectors forum we had a strong agreement between the members not to promote other people auctions for rare items until it's ended, it is better for everybody! Also those prices in Japan is not a real price guide for many reasons, first we're in Europe should pay a high import tax etc. I see you're posting prices often, but it's relevent only to those who lives in Japan, for the rest of the world it is just a tease, i hope you understand. |
Dear Professor, The old Romans already stated ''de gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum''. Kant assumed that Aristotelian logic is perfect while the other German ,G. Frege , invented modern logic. In terms of modern logic ''value statement'' are considered to be ''not truth functional'' . That is to say that other criteria then truth and falsity are involved. You mentioned ''art'' in contradistinction to ''science'' actually in the same way as Frege deed. ''Art'' is about, say, esthetics , good tastes, beauty etc., which are as important to humans as the science but don't presupose consensus. That is why, say, Chakster prefer Ikeda's MM carts while I prefer his MC carts (grin). BTW I am very glad to see you back! |
Dear Chakster, I completely understand. Sorry, I should have realized that. I won't talk about yahoo auctions or anything that I'm bidding on or the prices I get in Japan. I actually have the same problem with American and European stores/auctions with expensive shipping and customs into Japan. Did you ever listen to the F-9L or F-9E (elliptical) or did you never bother with them? Would you guess that the F-9E or F-9L might also be better than the F-8L? I understand these are not best of the grace line, but I can't really afford to fight for >$1000 best-of-the-best-NOS models. I understand that my point-of-view is a bit different from others on this thread, but I am trying to find slightly common, but maybe forgotten, good price-performance vintage MM cartridges "gems" rather than the expensive, rare, best, TOTL, collector, NOS types. |
Jessica, The Grace F-9E is a good cartridge.....but IMO your Victor Z1/SAS is superior with greater detail, lower more convincing bass and a luscious (yet accurate) midrange. What the Z1/SAS delivers with regularity over the F-9E....is that elusive 'magic' that separates the 'good' from the 'great' 🤗 As always.....YMMV |
Jessica, here's a different recommendation. Since you appreciate vinyl and the oboe, have you ever heard the soundtrack recording to "The Mission"? That has been a favorite of mine for many years and I also find it useful as an evaluation tool. It is decently recorded and includes a wide variety of instrumentation so one can test for many realistic tonal presentations -- everything from full orchestra to massed choir to bamboo flutes to (a huge) concert bass drum to yes, a lead oboe. Also there is a large soundstage and pretty startling dynamics. Don't bother with the CD, only a clean LP will be worthwhile. |
Henry, Thanks. I think I will pass on those elliptical Grace F8L / F9L. Pryso, Thanks for the recommendation. I'll try to find a copy of this sound track. Out of curiosity and regarding Chakster's comment about sharing interesting auctions listings: if I find something on auctions.yahoo.jp which is also on jauce.com (available for worldwide bidding) that might be of interest here but that I'm not going to bid on, would people like me to let them know? Or is everyone already making regular searches of jauce.com? |
Hi Guys, I have enjoyed reading the thread, and wanted to chime in in defense of the Graces (saving Grace). Anyone interested in vintage cartridges reading the above comments might be under the false impression that they are not worth seeking.... They are great cartridges and should not be dismissed, regardless of the type of stylus. I have enjoyed an F8F and currently use an F9U with a conical stylus. Here is what Grace said about it: "Grace deems the F9U a playback standard and recommends it with pride to music lovers, audio enthusiasts and professional users." I understand that this is, to some degree, marketing hype, but I find interesting that Grace kept a conical stylus option (in fact 2, with the F9P) in its top-of-the-line cartridge stable. I recently acquired an F9L body. The coil measurements are different from my other F9. Could any of the Grace fans give us some info about this cartridge? Finally, several members have said that Grace recommended loading their cartridges at 100 k ohms, however the manual clearly specifies 47 k. Yes, the measurement that is printed in the same manual (of an F9E) was made at 100 k, but it also shows a rise in the upper frequencies, which I assume would not be there at 47 k. I would appreciate clarification of this point. Thanks, Fred |
Dear @fsellet: I think that what other people try to say it’s not that the Grace are not worth seeking but that there are other better options. As a fact is very dificult to fine out vintage or today cartridges that really can sound bad. Agree with you, Grace carttridges are very good performers. Now, the 9L is different in its output level that instead to be 3.5mv is 5.5 mv, that’s why the difference in the measures. 100k is the best way to load the F9 and that hf rising is welcomed because when the audio signal pass trhough the pho0no stage inverse RIAA eq the high frequencies goes down around 18-20 db to the infinite and this means that the eq. does not stops at 20khz but in theory goes over the RIAA eq. curve and this very high equalization makes that the high frequencies lost the airy and transparency and definition that in some ways it will be recovored by the high rising the 100k load shows at that chart. So, it’s not something wrong but as I said: welcomed. As a fact and for that same reason non flat cartridges but with hf rising over 20khz always ( every thing the same. ) sounds better and nothing wrong with that but an advantage. Many years ago Ortofon made several tests with their " golden ears " groups of audiophiles/musician and non-audiophiles gentlemans looking for the best frequency response in their cartridges and its conclusion was that over several of those controled tests all those gentlemans prefers the 3.5db hf rising in Ortofon models that the same cartridges with flat response. Till then that’s the way Ortofon designed and design its cartridges. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear Raul, Dear @fsellet: I think that what other people try to say it’s not that the Grace are not worth seeking but that there are other better options. As a fact is very dificult to fine out vintage or today cartridges that really can sound bad.The fact there is is something better does not diminish the Graces' achievements. In fact, this is a statement we can make about ANY cartridge. This long thread is a testament to this: you and others (and I) always find something we like better... My point was that we can live with very good, or great, without spending millions...at least for a while... I do agree with you that most of these vintage MMs are surprisingly good sounding (but I have tried only a fraction of what you have tested). Now, the 9L is different in its output level that instead to be 3.5mv is 5.5 mv, that’s why the difference in the measures. Yes, I do understand the connection between measurements. I was mostly curious to hear about the end result of adding a few turns in the coil. the F9L is the only one in the series that has a higher output. Surely, Grace would not have given us this option if they had not been convinced of the benefit of doing so. The F9L did not come with a conical stylus either, but a fancy cut... My experience is that generally (but not always) a higher output often results in subjectively greater dynamics, at the expense of resolution. All F9 styli are interchangeable; I wish Agoners who have tried switching styli between the regular body and the F9L would comment on the resulting sound difference... 100k is the best way to load the F9 and that hf rising is welcomed because when the audio signal pass trhough the pho0no stage inverse RIAA eq the high frequencies goes down around 18-20 db to the infinite and this means that the eq. does not stops at 20khz but in theory goes over the RIAA eq. curve I am not questioning that 100k sounds better. I do not know because I do not have this option on my preamp, but I am saying that that is not what Grace said. Besides, the curve which appears on the manual is RIAA equalized and still rises in the upper frequencies... Now, the Ortofon story is interesting, maybe that is why so many people like MCs over MMs. On the other hand, I trust my ears (no they are not golden) and my favorite vintage cartridge is a Shure M3D (first iteration) with the original N21D stylus. This was the very first stereo MM in the US. It measures horribly and sounds heavenly....just the opposite of CD... Cheers, Fred |
@jessica_severin Did you ever listen to the F-9L or F-9E (elliptical) or did you never bother with them? Would you guess that the F-9E or F-9L might also be better than the F-8L? Yes, i have tried most of them and already posted about it here. The best one in F-9 series is F-9F with Nude Shibata type stylus designed for CD-4, the next one is F-9U with Line Contact type stylus. The most popular is F-9E with Elliptical stylus and the most expensive is good looking F-9 Ruby with Elliptical stylus and Ruby Cantilever (the reason why it’s expensive or "overpriced" as i said). The rest of the models in F-9 series are not interesting at all. I don’t like the sound with Conical styli, no matter what manufacturer made it (so i don’t like the sound of Denon DL-103 or Ortofon SPU with conical styli, no matter what other people think about, those cartridges are extremely popular for some reason, but in my opinion they are not interesting at all). The Grace F-9 is OK untill you will be able to check the LEVEL II, F-12 and F-14 made in the 80s. Those High-End Grace models comes with BORON cantilevers and MICRO RIDGE styli, there are optional Beryllium Cantilever / Line Contact stylus for F-12 and others, depends on the type of the various original stylus replacement. The Grace F-12 are impossible to find cartridge, while the LEVEL II and F-14 are uber rare and normally very expensive even in Japan. Those models are state o the art MM phono pickups, so the F-9 Ruby with its elliptical tip is just mid level model compared to top of the line Grace LEVEL II, F-12 and F-14 LC-OFC models. There is also special calibrated model called "F-14 Excellent" that you will not find in any catalogs, and i’m a proud owner of it. The potential of Grace was far better than F-9 Ruby, but unfortunately F-14 LC-OFC was the last high-end MM cartridge from Shinagawa Musen Co. LTD in this world. P.S. They are also made Grace F-10 MC model, but i never tried this one. |
@fsellet ... currently use an F9U with a conical stylus. Here is what Grace said about it: "Grace deems the F9U a playback standard and recommends it with pride to music lovers, audio enthusiasts and professional users."The original F-9U is not Conical, but LINE CONTACT type (similar to a cutter stylus according to manual) and your quote is about F-9D and F-9P (they are conical for broadcast use). Finally, several members have said that Grace recommended loading their cartridges at 100 k ohms, however the manual clearly specifies 47 k. Yes, the measurement that is printed in the same manual (of an F9E) was made at 100 k, but it also shows a rise in the upper frequencies, which I assume would not be there at 47 k. I would appreciate clarification of this point. If you’re looking at Grace catalog on vinyl engine where all the models are listed on two pages (except Ruby) you will see that the measurement made ONLY for the top of the line Grace F-9F Discrete-4 designed for CD-4 (Quadraphonic) records and that’s why this model with Shibata Type Stylus loaded at 100k as it should be loaded to reproduce CD-4 records with high modulation. Frequency response of the Grace F-9F is 10-60000 Hz (the next one is F-9U 10-50000 Hz) Those models must be loaded at 100k. The rest of the models in F-9 series does not reproduce high frequency that much (below 45 000Hz for F-9E and much lower for the rest of them). I think it was me who said those Grace must be loaded at 100k, but i don’t care about F-9E model (and others with elliptical or conical tip), because the F-9F with Shibata is much beter cartridge and 100k on preamp is a must have for it (Overall capacity: 80pF , 1.2g tracking force) |
The original F-9U is not Conical, but LINE CONTACT type (similar to a cutter stylus according to manual) and your quote is about F-9D and F-9P (they are conical for broadcast use).Dear Chakster, You are absolutely right, thanks for correcting my mistake. F9D is the one. Better than interesting in my opinion...We will agree to disagree... Best, Fred |
@fsellet well, i'm sure it's OK and inexpensive cartridge, but with direct comparison Conical/Spherical stylus is always lose its charm when the Shibata/LineContact, MicroRidge/MicroLine can be used instead. For those who are into vintage vinyl (like myself) it's important to reach the virgin part of the used records deeper in the grooves, untouchable by Conical tip, because most of them have been played by Conical styli over the years. It's easy to bypass the worn part of the grooves by using at least LineContact or better styli, which goes deeper in the groove. Another reason is much wider frequency response etc. |
I am amused at the certainty with which Chakster and Clearthink dole out advice to those willing to absorb it. Since no two of us own the exact same system, and since (thankfully) we all have different brains, it is probably best to make one's own evaluations, using the gossip printed here only as a guideline. If 3 guys say the same thing, I might take that seriously. I have had very good results by having SoundSmith re-tip a Grace Ruby using their top of the line LC stylus (OCL, I think is their acronym) and the sapphire/ruby cantilever. Just a suggestion; you could probably do the same with any F9 series for a very similar excellent result. I have another Grace Ruby still with its original stylus, so I have been able to compare the two configurations; the SS version sounds better in most ways, to me, on my Beveridge-based system. This is on a highly tweaked Lenco using a Dynavector DV505 tonearm and lightweight headshell. On the same system, using a different turntable and tonearm, the Acutex LPM320 has become a habit. Phono and line stage is Manley Steelhead. |
Raul, "Many years ago Ortofon made several tests with their " golden ears " groups of audiophiles/musician and non-audiophiles gentlemans looking for the best frequency response in their cartridges and its conclusion was that over several of those controled tests all those gentlemans prefers the 3.5db hf rising in Ortofon models that the same cartridges with flat response." As Fred mentioned, this seems to support the preference many hi-end hobbyists hold for MC cartridges. But then isn't that also a contradiction to this entire posting? chakster, "but with direct comparison Conical/Spherical stylus is always lose its charm when the Shibata/LineContact, MicroRidge/MicroLine can be used instead" This may be true for your taste, but it is not fair to imply it for others. There are a great many serious listeners who enjoy playback with conical styli, and not just Art Dudley. Even the venerable J Gordon Holt, toward his last days as publisher/editor of Stereophile used a conical tipped Shure V-15 Type V as his reference cartridge. And he judged utilizing comparisons against master tapes of symphonic music he made himself. Opinions are fine, and may sometimes be helpful to others, but none of us should assume all others may/should hold the same preferences as ourselves. |
Dear @fsellet: """
Besides, the curve which appears on the manual is RIAA equalized and still rises in the upper frequencies... """ that's exactly why that rising in the hf are welcomed. When the inverse RIAA is applicated the eq. goes down/fall to infinite in those hf and this makes that hf and harmonics can't shows it at its best because that eq. The raising in hf is a good thing for any audiophile with a decent audio room/system. Anyway, good luck with your Grace's. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @chakster : I don't think the Ruby is overpriced against that Grace aluminum cantilever used in the other models. In the other side we have to think that in all those time diamond/ruby/saphire cantilever materials was almost " exclusive for the very top models that came with a high tag on it. @lewm , the SS Ruby work in the Grace means is a different cartridge design because the compliance on the SS is not exactly the same as in the original Ruby, the SS comes with new suspension/dampers, the ruby cantilever overall dimensions are not exactly as in the original and the SS comes with different stylus tip. So, from the point of view of cartridge design both are way different cartridges and can't performs the same. Regards and enjoy the Music NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
well, i'm sure it's OK and inexpensive cartridge, but with direct comparison Conical/Spherical stylus is always lose its charm when the Shibata/LineContact, MicroRidge/MicroLine can be used instead.Dear Chakster, thank you for reinforcing my point so beautifully! Clearly using a conical stylus in a top of the line cartridge is not a call driven by marketing. As you and others have shown, many audiophiles are prejudiced against conical styli, yet knowing this, Grace made the decision to offer a conical option with its best cartridge (so did Ortofon, Garrot, etc.) Not only that, they called it a playback standard... That tells me the designer cared enough about the sound produced by this "primitive" stylus. Again, so does Ortofon with it SPU. Clearly, these designers and their happy customers cannot all be deaf. You seem to be insulting these poor cartridges by calling them OK and inexpensive. But their stylus is conical by design: it is none of their fault, nor choice (otherwise they would have gone for the fancy diamond, I am sure). More seriously, I don't think that the F9D was cheap in its time. FWIW, it does outperform the more expensive F8F in my system (yes, I double checked the model number. ;-) The point of my original post was not to disagree with you or others here, but simply to say that we do not need to necessarily seek the most expensive cartridge in any given line. It can, but will not always be the most satisfactory. Everyone respond differently, and like Lewn said, we have different systems, different tastes or priorities. You, Raul, and others here have shown that it is worth trying these cartridges for ourselves. Thank you for that, and for sharing your knowledge. There are many great surprises out there. Going back to the Shure M3D, for example, I had not idea a cartridge designed in 1957-58 could sound so good. It was a revelation: amazing bass, most natural highs and open midrange and great soundstage. As Shure moved to other designs, the M3D was kept as a cheap option in their catalog, but originally it was one of the most expensive cartridge money could buy, and their star. The vagaries of fashion and marketing... Anyway, good luck with your Grace's.Raul, we all need luck, not just my Graces. This is on a highly tweaked Lenco using a Dynavector DV505 tonearm and lightweight headshell. Lewn, re-plinthed Lenco here too, with Sumiko "the arm". Cheers, Fred |
Dear @chakster @fsellet: Today conical stylus tip and aluminum in cantilevers is only an anachronism. Conical stylus shape is a way inferior to latest years line contact type stylus shapes. probably the only advantage on conical shape is that's less sensitive to SRA/VTA changes or other changes in the cartridge set up. Conical was the standard in the old times but that does not means is rigth. Things are that in those times line contact shapes was not appeared yet. Denon 103 was the cartridge that I think gave more popularity to the conical shape but we have to think that that Denon design was builded for broadcasting use not for audiophiles, even that some designers followed with out good reasons. Same with aluminum, today nothing justify the use of aluminum cantilever but only to have lower price tag. I know that some designers swears for conical and aluminum and for me is only because their ignorance levels on what are the cartridge needs and the why's of. The Ortofon SPU design is a design for the japanese market ( mainly ) where audiophiles have a very special and different idiosyncracy than many of us. Way of thinking very different. |
Dear Raul, I take your point, but keep in mind that I did not purchase the pre-fabricated ruby/OCL stylus assembly from SS. Rather, I had them rebuild my original stylus assembly. Therefore, it may be that my sample retains the original suspension; I don't really know for sure. I bought the cartridge on eBay with NO cantilever and stylus. It was as if someone had taken a tweezers and neatly plucked out the cantilever; the rest of the cartridge, including the rubber sleeve into which the cantilever fits, looked like new. I then sent it to SS for the re-tip. Speaking of conical or spherical styli, I remember when elliptical styli hit the market and everyone moved in that direction. Somewhere around that time, Harry Pearson declared his love for the Decca 4RC (spherical tip) cartridge. He was very influential at that time, and he turned many back to conical/spherical, for a while. One of my friends had a 4RC; it was darn good in the midrange. |
That's right, the conical styli were made by Grace for professional market to use on radiostations, anyone can read about it, search for the Grace history (Shinagawa Musen Co., Ltd). The word "professional" in audio does not mean a better quality, but special needs for radiobroadcasters and radio deejays / club djs (don't forget about Grace "Disco" series designed for club DJs in the 70s). Those old Conical tip required much higher tracking force, it is more durable for everyday use on the radio or in the clubs, it's cheaper to replace styli every month etc. Those styli are bonded, not nude which makes them inferior by default. And yes, the conical stylus is more forgiving to setup errors, it does not require absolute alignment and this is the reason why conical styli are still dj standard (like 9mV Shure M44-7 that works fine with 3-5g tracking force)! Any other styli will be bent, worn and broken if used by djs. This is all good for professional needs when you play record near 200-2000 dancing and jumping people and your turntable is shaking and you use 3-5g tracking force to avoid skipping in process, but not necessary for home use in high-end system @fsellet In this post about conical styli i'm just trying to put the facts together, it's up you what kind of styli is better for your ears. When i bought my NOS Denon DL-107 MM cartridge i was impressed by the sound quality of that nude and very well polished conical stylus,but it was long time ago. Since that day i have tried many cartridges and i would never go back to the Conical stylus, but it's just me. The music i'm into is very well recorded in the 60s, 70s and early 80s on original pressings, conical tip never gave me satisfaction compared to LineContact, Hyper Elliptical, Stereohedron, MicroLine, MicroRidge etc. Conical stylus is old school, some people still plays 78rpm vinyl using cacti stylus, but who cares? Even Ortofon released their best SPU Royal GM mk2 with Ortofon Replicant stylus after all. |
Dear @lewm : Any good cartridge design will performs good, as I said for vintage ( but valid too for any today design. ) cartridges: is really dificult to find out one that sounds bad. It's not weird for me that even today exist cartridge designs with conical stylus shape or aluminum cantilevers designed because they want a low price tag or because ignorance level of designers. What is weird for me is that exist " stupid " persons that today bougth it, obviously by ignorance so maybe not so stupid but very high ignorance levels. Now, what is true is that those vintage MM cartridges was and even today very good overall designs where some of those cartridges can compete with today LOMC cartridges and this is an achievement. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
@fsellet Grace made the decision to offer a conical option with its best cartridge (so did Ortofon, Garrot, etc.) Not only that, they called it a playback standard... That tells me the designer cared enough about the sound produced by this "primitive" stylus. Again, so does Ortofon with it SPU. Clearly, these designers and their happy customers cannot all be deaf. The "best cartridge" and "conical tip" are two different things and can not be compiled together. The most advanced Grace MM desing is F-14 with Micro Ridge stylus tip. Can’t remember Garrott with conical tip, their best (original p77) was Micro Tracer and now Micro Scanner MKII and Fritz Gyger. The "best" ortofon SPU is Royal GM MK2 with Ortofon Replicant stylus tip (similar to Fritz Gyger). Happy customers are not crazy like us (trying to buy all the best vintage cartridges to test them), maybe they are more happy. To answer the second part of your post i want to make it clear that "OK and inexpensive" meant not expensive, nothing bad. Check the dealers price in Japan (below) in 1975. the cheapest in F-9 series: Grace F-9D price: 18,000 Yen Conical RS-9D replacement price: 9,000 Yen the most expensive in F-9 series: Grace F-9F price: 25,000 Yen Shibata (Discrete-4) replacement price: 12,500 Yen The rarest grace is F-12 with Diamond Cantilever (98 000 Yen in 1981) Something much better than F-9 is LEVEL II with Boron cantilever and Micro Ridge stylus (37 000 yen in 1983) And the next one is F-14 LC-OFC with Boron cantilever and Micro Ridge stylus (49 000 yen in 1985) |
It's not weird for me that even today exist cartridge designs with conical stylus shape or aluminum cantilevers designed because they want a low price tag or because ignorance level of designers.Dear Raul, It is never a good idea to use the S word (as they say in kindergarten) or call someone ignorant in a public forum. At best, it comes through as arrogance... In the same vein, a casual reader of this forum could view your arguments as excessively simplistic when you, for example, praise the golden ears of Danes in your Ortofon story, only to conveniently dismiss the golden ears or Japanese as idiosyncrasies... Cultural generalizations are rarely a sign of sophistication. I would never dare questioning the smile of Mona Lisa, even if deep inside I wished I could see her teeth. I am sure Leonardo had a plan and ultimately good taste... My post was not about the best design choice today, but referred to the choice Grace designers made back then to offer a conical stylus for audiophiles with their F9D (in addition to their F9P -- professional cartridge). You could be right and it is possible that they were ignorant, but somehow I doubt this... Just as I doubt people buying modern SPUs with conical tips (no, I am not one of them) are ignoramuses. As I already said, we all have different priorities and approaches. Mine is not to own the best. As a young audiophile, I worked hard to improve my system and read everything I could to do so with the limited budget that was mine. I quickly realized that the enterprise was a money pit. The endless quest was similar to shooting at a moving target, and only got me more frustrated. As the resolution of my system increased, I was better able to hear the shortcomings. All this led me farther away from my goal, which was to enjoy the music I was playing. I quickly learned from my rookie mistakes (to paraphrase you) and decided to focus on getting pleasure from my stereo. This is my paradigm. Not better nor worth than yours, just different. Who knows, maybe the Japanese you frown upon are doing something right after all with their love of tubes, horns and SPUs... Good luck with your quest of zero distortion. Best, Fred |
That's right, the conical styli were made by Grace for professional market to use on radiostations, anyone can read about it, search for the Grace history (Shinagawa Musen Co., Ltd).Chakster, the F9P was indeed for the professional market (I own one of them) but the F9D was for audiophiles. BTW, tracking force is 1.2 g. There is much misinformation in this thread. |
Dear @harold-not-the-barrel : You are safe at 1.5gr. where almost all F14 works. Only the F14BR ask for 1.3grs as ideal but even this one we can use 1.5grs. because is inside its VTF range. The other with different to ideal 1.5grs. is the F14-M-SP that works at 2.0 grs. Now, the optimum VTF will be defined by you and your room/audio system but will stay around 1.5grs. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
@fsellet I was so curious about SPU sound 3-4 years ago, bought one new SPU Classic GM MK2 with Conical tip for my Thomas Schick tonearm which was designed for SPU and Denon in mind. It was the worst cartridge in my life! Heavy monster with huge diamond required very high tracking force up to 4g! I like ONLY how it looks (design) which is beautifull, but the sound is so boring. Like you, i’ve been reading so many positive feedbacks online about this classic cartridge and i have seen so many statement that conical tip is actually very good one and 4g tracking force is also normal. Some people call it "very musical" cartridge as oppisite to high-end cartridge. At that time i had ZYX Airy III with silver coil on Technica EPA-100 tonearm and that was a high-end cartridge. And you know what? I like the high-end cartridges and in my opinion Conical SPU is not musical cartridge at all, but just boring to death. I ried to play Jazz LPs with Conical SPU. I never had any problems with tracking etc, but each time i was thinking about my ZYX Airy III with Micro Ridge tip, because it was fantastic cartridge compared to uninvolving Conical SPU on dedicated heavy tonearm. I have high efficiency system with no crossover (full range drivers, 101db) with Push-Pull tube arm and various phono stages. The conical SPU was the worst cartridge ever! But i decided to try a better SPU DESIGNED ONLY FOR JAPANESE MARKET and i bought very rare SPU Spirit (LIMITED EDITION MODEL, ONLY 500 UNITS MADE) with much better coil wiring and Elliptical tip. This cartridge was much better than Conical SPU! It was a very good cartridge in the same set-up (SP-10mk2 and Schick "12 tonearm), but i’ve noticed some misstracking on various LPs, so i decided to return the cartridge to the Japanese shop and they accepted my return with full refund, the serial number was 500 and it was the last SPU Spirit in production line. The stylus tip does metter even for SPU, that’s why i said that the best SPU is the one with Ortofon Replicant Stylus, the model is SPU Royal GM MK2. And this model is extremely popular in Japan. The superiority of the conical SPU is just a myth! Raul used the right word for this phenomena - this is anachronism. the manufactures is giving the conical option because of the price, there are so many SPU models, but the Conical models are the cheapest. Some people can not afford 2200 Euro SPU Royal GM MK2, but they could probably afford 750 Euro SPU Classics. This is marketing, the reason they are still available is just because it’s a classics, they can hook you up with the cheapest model and then you want to upgrade later. Let’s go back to the GRACE now: I have no idea why do you think that F-9D is much better than F-9P? Do you have a picture of the stylus to make sure is it NUDE or BONDED? The difference in price between F-9P and F-9D is just 2000 Yen (not the big deal, still much cheape than all others in F-9 series). It seems like the F-9D is higher in compliance and that’s why the tracking force is lower (maybe the stylus is nude). But Grace stated (by mistake) in all catalogs the tracking force for all models from 0.5g to 1.2g which can’t be true. I assume that the conical styli of professional F-9P require higher tracking force (at least 2-3g). For some reason the price for F-9D in the 70s was even lower than for F-9P, maybe it is also mistake, i’m not sure. But as i said earlier those cartridges are just cheap alternative for those you can not spend more, it is also marketing and that’s fine to have a product for beginners. The F-9D is definitely not a high-end model in F-9 series, but if you would like to believe it’s " audiophile cartridge" with conical tip then no problem. I don't think we have missinformation in this thread, at least we are trying to spread the light on various missinformation coming from the manufacturers sometimes. I made so many prints in my life and i know there might be typos, so no wonder if the manual printed with typos and it was too late to fix it. |
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Dear @fsellet: ""
There is much misinformation in this thread..""" Could be, I can't detect it yet. You posted that enjoyed reading the thread, I wonder why if is " much misinformation " here. If in reality exist that misinformation level that can be normal because in the thread is reflected each one of us ignorance levels. Now, even if it's true what you posted here I'm sure that every single post by each one gentleman that posted in the thread posted information to help all of us and thinking he had a good information and not misinformation. I think no one wants to " hit " here with misinformation. As I told you, if you have other internet forums where we can learn about all those misinformation please share with us because we want to be less and less ignorant in many audio subjects. I know some other net forums where Agon is the reference, maybe it's not according to you. Btw, I think that even if you do not give us the links of other " correct " forums will be apprecaited that you be specific by subjects where you found out all that " much misinformation ". Is time to learn and leave ignorance behind us. Will wait for it. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Thanks Raul for F-14 info, I´d assume the F-14 M is a mono version. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GRACE-F-14ML-LC-OFC-MONO-Monaural-Monophonic-MM-Cartridge-/262128752966?ha... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GRACE-F-14-LC-OFC-MONO-Monaural-Monophonic-MM-Cartridge-/262721049700?hash... I find it strange that there is so little reviews/opions/writings on those very special TOTL Grace cartridges as they are superlative, despite they were sold for Japanese audiophiles only back in the 80´s |
@harold-not-the-barrel we have very little info about F-14 models because it’s a short lived series, for example the original F-14 BR/MR was instoduced in 1984 and discontinued in 1985. F-14 LC-OFC appeared in 1984 and discontinued in 1989. Before there was F-12 model - the one with Diamond Cantilever (the most expensive Grace ever made) and it was also available for a few years from 1981 till 1983. The LEVEL II model was there from 1982 till 1988 (and LC-OFC version appeared in 1984). But the most popular F-9 series existed from 1974 till 1981 and along with LEVEL II it was long lived series. The mid 80s was hard times for Grace and many others, CD era killed many cartridge manufacturers, maybe those model were not distributed very well, or many not so many units were made. One of my LEVEL II BR/MR has Sumiko sticker, this company was their distributor in the states. |
@harold-not-the-barrel Stylus tip for F-12 Ruby and F-12 Diamond is elliptical, but i have never onwed those models and information can be wrong, because they are mega rare. My F-12 stylus is clear, model L12B (Line Contact? Beryllium Cantilever?), impossible to find any info about it. I have plain black stylus on my F-14 cartridge, not sure what it is and can't find any info about it, but the sound is great. LEVEL II Ruby is 0.2 x 0.8 mil and they call it Super Elliptical (or Hyper Elliptical) or Advanced Luminal Trace. but LEVEL II MR/BR is Micro Ridge tip and Boron cantilever, i'm sure it's the best combination! The F-14 LC-OFC was released also with SAP (Sapphire Cantilever) and MR (Micro Ridge) stylus tip. ... and another F-14 RC LC-OFC has rare Ceramic Cantilever with New Line Contact Stylus. I think the F-11 does not exist, but the F-10 is MC cartridge available in 3 different versions. And another virtually unknown MC is Grace Asakura-1, 03mV output (86000 Yen in 1986), replacement MC stylus with Solid Boron cantilever and Super Luminal Trace stylus tip. I think the Asakura-2 was MM (not the MC, output is 5mV). Beryllium Tapered Pipe cantilever, same Super Luminal Trace Stylus tip, the price for this cartridge in 1986 was 48000 Yen. This model looks exactly like the earlier Grace F-12, stylus replacement also looks like the F-12 replacements. Asakura-San was the Grace founder and those Asakura-1 and Asakura-2 models are signature models released in 1986 and discontinued in 1988. And the absolutely unknown model is "Grace F-14 Excellent" - specially calibrated series, i got this one and love it. |
I´m sure Grace F-11 exists as it was for sale on eBay w/ great photos a few years back and I saw it once here on A´gon too (I think a member had it on his cart collection). Google "Grace F-11" and you will find a photo of a gray Grace body with "L" on other side of it, so it´s probably Luminal Trace and an MC, according to VinylEngine cart database. https://www.vinylengine.com/library/grace.shtml Congrats on your Grace F-14 Excellent, it´s truly a very rare gem. Excellent ! |