@jtnicolosi effective mass on my Reed 3P "12 Cocobolo is about 18g and currently i use my Garrott P77 on it (loaded at 100k). But my Garrott is an old one, tuned by Garrott Brothers. The new Garrott cartridges are a little bit different, maybe even better, the P77i ("i" - improved) has different stylus tip.
When i asked
Philippe Luder (managing Director of Garrott) he said: "The principal difference between the two Cartridges is the Stylus Assembly. The Ps-77i is fitted with a Micro Scanner MKII diamond and tuned accordingly. The Ps-77 uses a Micro Tracer Diamond. The sound of the MSMKII is more extended at both ends of the Audio spectrum therefore sweeter treble and deeper bass with overall flatter Frequency response." I would love to try new Garrott stylus myself, but my old just works fine. JICO New SAS is also compatible, but i never tried. If you're conserned about aluminum cantilevers you can always look for vintage AT-ML170 and AT-ML180 with gold plated boron cantilevers and super low tip moving mass. Those are not so high compliance cartridges, probaby can be used on Kuzma. I think the price difference between new Garrott ($600 AUD) and nice AT-ML170 is not so big. If the Audio-Technica was new today the price would be much higher. I have a spare.
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Thank you very much chakster! I'll do a bit more research and look into the Audio-Technica's. |
@Chakster do you have any experience with the Garrott FGS ruby? |
JT, In memory of the late, great Johnny Carson, how "massive" is it? Which is to ask, what is the effective mass? Thanks. |
Ha! The 4Point is 14g, so if Chakster's Reed works at 18g, the 4Point should be fine. |
Halcro Today I mounted the XL-88 in my FR-64s on the Victor TT-101 running through the Halcro MC phonostage and my jaw dropped at what I heard. This may just be the best sound I have yet heard in my system...😎 Halcro Back in April on the DD thread I mentioned that the Sony XL88D was one of many cartridges used in a comparison of my Final Audio VTT1 (mine, the one I own) and the Denon DP100M (borrowed for a few months). I'm talking about TT's actually on hand, not some third party reviewer. You said at the time halcro OP 04-10-2017 2:40pm Dover- without him actually saying it....I don't think Thuchan is that impressed with the DP100M. I DO know that it doesn't get much listening time amongst his enviable collection, so your description of its sound is believable....although I wouldn't necessarily use those two cartridges as a gauge. I have them both...😎 Do you have the XL88D ( diamond cantilever and stylus cut from one piece ) that I was referring to, or the substantially cheaper XL88 ? |
Hi jtnicoosi, I have bought and listened to many ’current production’ or ’recent’ MM cartridges and IMHO there is none that can compete with the vintage MMs produced in ’The Golden Age’ of analogue (70s and 80s) 😪 There is simply a ’magic’ produced by the vintage cartridges which somehow eludes the current contenders....and I have found the same in relation to LOMCs..... Many of the really great vintage MMs require patience (and luck) to find (generally on EBay)....but are still available 😃 My stock advice to those wanting to taste the best of the vintage MM story which are readily available cheaply is:- Both these cartridges are available (Victor on eBay and V15/III on HiFiDo) in numbers and the condition of their respective styli should not be of concern to you because you will want to immediately replace the stock stylus with a brand new Jico SAS (available directly from Jico in Japan). The Victor is superior to the Shure but both can provide close to the best sound available in analogue today IMO. I agree with Chakster about the merits of the Garrott P77.....I have two of the originals (both with their original styli). The difference however, when you replace the original stylus with the Jico SAS......is astonishing 🤗 If Chakster thinks highly of the P77 with original stylus.....he will not believe the transformation with the SAS... Good luck |
@halcro thank you very much for your guidance. There's a certain internal conflict that doesn't allow me to accept that a $200 MM cartridge will replace $3000+ MC cartridges, but I'm certainly willing to give it a shot and prove my gut wrong! I realize this is the classic audiophile trapping (better must cost more), but my recent affair with 60 year old ESL's has forced me to reconsider everything I've thought about audio. I'll pick up a Z1 to start. |
@jtnicolosi There’s a certain internal conflict that doesn’t allow me to accept that a $200 MM cartridge will replace $3000+ MC cartridges then you have to spend more on some rare expensive vintage MM :) do you have any experience with the Garrott FGS ruby? never, those styli are expensive But i owned two original Victor X1 & X1II and they are pretty good, but the X1II was NOS and it was impossible to deny an offer to sell it for $1300. |
I also have a NOS Victor X-1IIE and as good as this cartridge is, the Z-1/SAS is possibly even better IMO...😃 A great resource for tracking down cartridges I have found (or any other audio item) jtnicolosi, is HiFi Shark .. You can list all the cartridges you are interested in and they will send you Emails whenever any of them appear anywhere in the world. By the time you find a Z1 and then add a SAS.....you are looking at possibly $400-$600 rather than $200 😎 Good luck |
Thank you both. At the moment it looks like I can get a Z1 for $180 and the SAS for $211. Looks like a good way to spend $391. I'll report back! |
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I have the 'cheap' XL-88 Dover.... I'm not convinced by 'jewelled' cantilevers (and I've listened to sapphire, ruby and diamond)..... The 'cheap' XL-88 has a beryllium cantilever and this is my material of choice any day of the week....👌 |
Halcro Thanks for the update - the XL88 you have has a composite cantilever comprised of beryllium, aluminium & carbon finer - same as was used in the Madrigal Carnegie that I used to sell. Its a good solution. I suspect part of the advantage on the XL88D due to the stylus and cantilever being cut from one piece - there is no joint between stylus and cantilever. The XL88D was far more resolving than the other top cartridges of the day. For that particular reference system ultimately my Dynavector Karat Nova 13D was selected as the cartridge of choice, again Diamond cantilever, although the Nova 13D stylus is glued. I have had and sold cartridges with Sapphire, Ruby, Diamond, Boron and various composite cantilevers - to me the material choice is an intrinsic part of the overall cartridge design.The resonances from the stylus & cantilever are part of the design process when designing and building the generator motor, coil layout & body etc of the whole cartridge. For example on the Shure V15vmr & vxmr that I own the Beryllium cantilever was very much critical in achieving the response and performance the Shure designers wanted. The Glanz MFG61 that I own has a boron cantilever - its the best MM I have heard in my system thus far.
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Talking about Jico SAS, which is close (or identical) to Micro Ridge aka Micro Line (patented by Audio-Technica), and taking in count the magic of the vintage cartridges, i don’t see any reason to avoid the original design utilizing Micro Line tip and the most advanced hollow pipe gold plated Boron cantilevers by Audio-Technica. This vintage conbination is superior to new Jico SAS Boron rod or neo SAS sapphire/ruby. So for the best possible quality i would look for the fully original MM design from the 70’s or 80’s if $200-300 price difference is not the big deal. Linked pics above are my own AT-AM170 (1988) and i love it. |
Dover, I was interested to see what effects could be heard when only the cantilever material of a cartridge was changed...... So when the boron shortage caused Jico to make its SAS cantilever out of sapphire and ruby, I quickly bought a version of each to test against their previously boron-equiped SAS. Mounted in my original Garrott P77 MM cartridge, I surprisingly could detect little difference between all three.....🤔
Interesting what you and Chakster hear from the Glanz MFG61 as the MFG31, 51 and 71 (together with the M5) were all major disappointments to me.... Could never find a MFG61..... Seems like I should try to track one down.....🙈
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Halcro I have similar experiences. We used to sell the Sumiko Talisman range, same cartridge different cantilevers - Standard - Magnesium/Aluminium alloy cantilever/Elliptical Styli Talisman B - Boron tube / Line Contact - nude mounted Talisman S - Sapphire tube / Line contact - laser mounted in ascending cost/price.
The Boron/Sapphire a step up in resolution, but smaller difference between the Boron/Sapphire - the Sapphire slightly lighter, more ethereal in presentation. We did get a few retipped with Microscanner styli by Garrotts which unleashed a little more. According to the blurb ( I have a couple here ) Sapphire is harder than Boron and specs out with a slightly more extended hf response. I've never placed the MFG61 in the Glanz line up so I can't compare it to the other Glanz'. In my system the MFG61 is very neutral with good transparency, the Victor X1 with original Beryllium cantilever and shibata stylus sounds quite coloured by comparison. Also with the MFG61 I dont lose that sense of speed compared to my favourite MC's. The only caution I would give you is the cantilever is a low rider - possibly the suspension is not durable and they are virtually impossible to find.
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Glanz MFG-61 with it’s tiny cantilever and very special stylus tip is completely differen beast and way ahead of the "normal" Glanz models with huge aluminum cantilevers like on 71L (and more conventional like on 31L). I have never seen this model for sale anywhere, since i bough mine long time ago. However, it makes me think that any conventional Glanz could be re-cantilevered/re-tipped with something like Boron/Microridge to compete with that rare MF61 model. |
Halcro, I have bought and listened to many ’current production’
or ’recent’ MM cartridges and IMHO there is none that can compete with
the vintage MMs produced in ’The Golden Age’ of analogue (70s and 80s)
😪 This is sad to hear. I wonder if part of this is the current "taste" that modern people want (HiDef, High-contrast, hyper-real) and thus the market is forcing the manufacturers to tune their cartridges to this. I suspect that the 70s/80s makers were using more test records for flat frequency response and referencing to live, simply microphoned live music to create a natural sound. I'm curious if you have heard the current Nagaoka MP-500, MP-300, ortofon om2 black or AT150Sa/VM750Sa? I haven't heard these yet, but from what I've read, these all seem to have a more natural (less hyped) character that might be more inline with the Golden Era esthetic and get some of the magic talked about in this thread. My favorite cartridge so far is a Denon DL-301 II running into a custom SUT (sowter 9570) which to me gives a very natural "live" sound. This cartridge is supposed to have a nearly ruler flat frequency response and it definitely sounds that way to me, yet seems to provide lots of inner detail all through the spectrum (not just high freq). But in response to reading so much about magic MMs I am very curious and I'm bidding heavily now on an Audio Technica AT15sa on auctions yahoo.jp |
@jessica_severin I wonder if part of this is the current "taste" that modern people want (HiDef, High-contrast, hyper-real) and thus the market is forcing the manufacturers to tune their cartridges to this. They want an MC and this is the reality of the audiophile market today. Even your favorite cartridge is Denon MC, that you’re listening with a SUT while the MM philosophy is way different. Nagaoka MP-500 is the "updated" modern version of the vintage MP-50 discussed here long time ago. The diamond of Nagaoka is glued to the cantilever, same with most of the modern MM cartridges, this method is not the best! Also cantilevers made of beryllium are not available anymore, the material is restricted to use long time ago. Most of the top vintage MM cartridges comes with hollow pipe Boron or Beryllium cantilevers and the diamond is fastened throught the pipe - that was a very expensive technology. Vintage Audio-Technica cartridges are superior to the new models, not sure why you’re ignoring the AT-ML170 and AT-ML180 from the 80's and looking for an old AT15Sa instead? MicroLine stylus (similar to Micro Ridge) of the AT-ML170 and AT-ML180 cartridges are superior to the classic 70's Shibata of the AT15Sa. In my opinion the Ortofon OM2 black is a waste of money, the problem is that you will not find a reviews for vintage MM cartridges, but you will find many reviews supporting modern cartridges. The reviewers are not testing them with the vintage stuff, they are only testing them with modern stuff. People read the reviews and buying those ortofons, denons etc, then we see thousands of comments on the forums regarding mediocre modern cartridges (claimed to be the best of the best). The vintage market open the doors to a true high-end for much better price and much better quality, but it is not interesting for the magazines and reviewers today. |
Hi Chakster thank you. I have been watching auctions.yahoo.jp for about a month for audio technica cartridges and I have yet to see an AT-ML170 or AT-ML180 show up. I see lots of at120 at130 at150 generation cartridges and this last week a batch of at12 at14 at15 appeared which includes the AT15Sa which I am trying to win. The owner posted some comments and needle drops and I really like what the AT15Sa is doing in his demos (he owned the whole collection of at12 at14 at15). I've also had a long time fascination with the shibata stylus and always wanted one. Also the AT15Sa was mentioned earlier in this thread by Raul as one of his favorites. So it all seemed worth a semi-blind risk to get a taste of a vintage MM. I also read a thread over on VE titled "The case against super-high end stylus designs" which had me thinking that shibata might the perfect fit for me. There is a nice high-end shop in akihabara which seems to have a nice vinyl room that has many cartridges which appear to be for auditioning on their tables to help people decide. I plan to go back there soon with some favorite records and see if I can audition some cartridges.
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@jessica_severin If you’re in Japan it should not be a problem to find what you want, especially if you can check them all in the showroom (great option) before you will buy them. I wish i could do so, but i can only buy them to try them. The Shibata is good, if the tiny Boron cantilever is scary then bigger aluminum or beryllium is the way to go for everyday use. As for the theory that simple conical styli are better than advanced styli, i do not agree. The Shibata is not a simple profile and while the conical/spherical are more forgiving to tonearm set-up, the Shibata must be set-up properly, same with Micro Line, Micro Ridge etc. |
Hi Jessica, Welcome to the Thread.... Amongst the modern MM cartridges I own, are the Clearaudio Virtuoso Ebony Wood and the Audio Technica AT-150ANV which topped a 'blind' readers' poll between 9 cartridges which Michael Fremer conducted a few years ago. I also have an AT-13Ea and a Signet AM-10.....both with transplanted AT155Lc stylus assemblies. These are very cheap vintage cartridges which are transformed by the Line Contact stylus on the beryllium cantilever that Chakster speaks about (I basically agree wholeheartedly with his Post in response). I also have a Denon 103R which honestly....IMO, cannot compete with the vintage MMs and LOMCs in my collection.
If you are able to utilise Japan Yahoo.....you will see dozens of Victor Z1 cartridges for ridiculous prices which, with the addition of a Jico SAS stylus, will show you the potential that Chakster and I are championing. That way, you have the best of vintage motor design with the best of modern Micro Line stylus design on a Sapphire cantilever. All for $400.00.... What's not to like....🤗
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Jessica, There's more to a cartridge than 'frequency response'...whether 'flat' or otherwise. I've seen the Frequency Response plots for dozens of cartridges which look quite similar yet the cartridges sound quite dissimilar..... I believe there is an elusive 'magic' to cartridge design which the major companies in the 'Golden Age' were able to foster with unlimited funds which these days, no longer exist. Dedicated and talented designers honed their craft over many years and that experience (and talent) has disappeared..... The same story is true of turntable and tonearm design from the 'Golden Years' compared to the present day. That is why I believe the 'new' designers are having to learn their craft basically from scratch, without the benefit of the direct knowledge (and experience) bank available to the designers in the past.
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Hi Halcro, thanks for the reply. On a side note, I wanted to thank you for all your posts on the Victor TT81/TT101. That convinced me to buy a victor QL-Y5 and modify it with my micro-seiki MA-505 arm (absolutely loving this table, check out my systems page). Regarding the AT155LC, is this compatible (fit on) the at15 generation bodies naturally, or does one need to modify it? I guess it should fit on the at120/at130/at150 bodies. I still get confused about which audio technica generations are compatible. I will keep my eye out for a Victor Z1 (hmm there is a DT-Z1Eb and Z1S available now :) Is there any particular Z1 bodies to watch out for or are they all the same (z1 z1s z1eb)? Also can you guys give a short list of bodies I should keep an eye out for? Would an AT120ea or AT130ea body be good? I see these every now and then. I agree with your comments about lost craft/art. I guess I was just hoping that companies like audio technica, nagaoka, denon who have never stopped producing cartridges since the Golden Age would not have lost this internal knowledge base. But I understand since my entire system is vintage. I guess my comment about frequency response is more about the fact that I am sensitive to any sort of unevenness in response (I play oboe) and there are some people who mistake a frequency response differences (ex. boosted treble or bass) for an "improvement" (but I doubt anyone in this thread would make that mistake). Oh I just won the AT15Sa for ~$85 and I see Jico/Namiki makes replacement shibata stylus for the AT15. I was reading Jico-stylus webpage and found out that I can't buy a Jico stylus in Japan, they are for export only. I think Jico is the export name and Namiki is the actual Japanese company name. I'll ask some of my Japanese friends how I would go about ordering a Namiki/Jico stylus here.
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Look for boron JICO SAS or new generation (ruby or sapphire) JICO NEO SAS styli, not for the cheap Jico Shibata or Elliptical, because they are not the best and not superior to the original AT styli! |
Hi Jessica, Thanks for the kind words 😎 Glad I inspired you to get the Victor....I really admire the ethos that this company built, not just in its turntables, but everything related to analogue....tonearms, cartridges, platter mats. A pity those days appear to be over 😪 That deck looks to be in great condition. I really like your system...careful selection and well balanced. I also have the Micro Seiki MA-505s (which has silver wiring) and only recently replaced it with the Dynavector DV-507 MkII. The Micro is such a good arm and allows all manner of adjustment ’on-the-fly’ including VTA and antiskate and even dynamic tracking force!! It was my go-to arm for quick auditioning of any new cartridge I acquired.
As a rule....the AT155LC stylus will fit on any AT or Signet cartridge body that contains the Ea after its number, but the 155Lc is rather hard to find these days and very expensive.... I wouldn’t be bothered with the postfix on the Z1 as they merely indicate the stylus type and shape. And as you plan on ditching this stylus for the SAS....you should just buy the cheapest Z1 that has a body that looks well-maintained and un-abused. I guess in Japan...Jico has to sell via retail outlets so I suspect that any audio store will be able to supply you with your choice of SAS....?
Please keep us informed on your MM adventures...and good luck 👍
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@chakster Hi Chakster, you posted a couple of pages ago that you have received the Azzurra Esoter. Did you have time to listen to it yet? I'm quite keen to know your impressions as I'm awaiting a NOS Azzurra Esoter from Jauce. I also took a wild punt on another NOS cartridge just because it was a Glanz:) (model MG-70R).
@All: this mega thread has been a real eye opener. It has taken me months to slowly read through nearly every single post, and take some notes. Besides the knowledge gained on which vintage cartridges to look for, it had provided immense insights on trying non-conventional VTA. It's almost magical hearing how the tonal balance changes as one varies the VTA. This learning is a big takeaway for me at least. It has also taught me to be more adventurous with resistive loading. I didn't see much experiments with capacitive loading other than to try and keep it low. Not sure if this is always a valid approach since I couldn't get my Shure V15 III to sound acceptable at anything lower than the recommended capacitive load. Anyways, I'm sufficiently convinced to add front panel knobs to select resistive and capacitive loads on my MM phono preamp. Already got the parts as it's a pain to desolder/solder each time one wants to change values.
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@jls001 I assume you know the story behind Azzurra Esoter MF cartridges. Japanese Mitachi Corporation was OEM of Azzurra, Glanz, Astatic and even Jamo MF cartridges. The lowest models like the Azzurra have a Conical Styli, but they can be upgraded (re-tipped or re-cantilevered) by Axel in Germany with the most advanced styli of your choice, then it can be fantastic cartridge with its Moving Flux generator. Axel once fixed suspension on my Glanz 71L, some of those NOS cartridges have "dead" suspension/damper. In stock condition Azzurra is a very good cartridge at reasonable price (with conical tip), but not as good as the Glanz with Line Contact tip. The price for Azzurra is so low that anyone can buy it to upgrade later and i hope someone will do that to report back on audiogon. My pair of Azzurra went to a local vinyl collector, dude playin records at the local bar with Azzurra cartridges and he’s happy about it. I have only tested Azzurra in my headphones, because i already had Glanz 31L, 71L in the past, and currently have Glanz 61 (which is my favorite). None of the line Contact models impressed me as much as the rarest Glanz 61 model, so i decided to keep only 61 for myself, so at the moment i do not have any other cartridges made by Mitachi. Here is a picture of my Glanz 71 and 61 cartridges: https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20264897_1804729219545237_9108764864272708551_n.jpg?oh... |
My audio Technica AT15Sa arrived last night and it looks in great shape. I inspected the stylus as best as I could with a 40x loope and it's definitely a shibata shape but might be showing some shiny areas which could indicate it's heavily worn. I'll set it up over the weekend. I also won a bid on a clean Victor Z1Eb with headshell. It comes with an orange stylus which might be either the original eb elliptical or a jico replacement. It should arrive over the weekend. I emailed the American jico-stylus.com distributor and they confirmed that all Z1 bodies are compatible with all Z1 stylus, and gave me the link to their Japanese webshop. I'll order a Z1 Neo/SAS sapphire soon.
I've been trying to read through this long thread and noticed around page 232-233 there was some love given to the Victor X1mk2. Seemed maybe that the Jico shibata or X1e stylus were pretty good too. Would it be worth grabbing an X1mk2 body too to add to my exploration collection? Seems that vintage X1 stylus are getting quite difficult to find these days. Thanks Jessica
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Have you seen an X1 advertised....? And seen the price.....?
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The Victor X1II is amazing cartridge in stock condition with original Shibata Tip on Beryllium Cantilever. This original cantilever has its own unique shape, just look at the picture of my X1II (stylus/cantilever assembly). Don’t waste your time if the cartridge has no stylus, it will be impossible to find the original stylus replacement for this model even in Japan and X1II with Jico will never sound as good as the original Shibata/Beryllium stylus replacement. That was top-of-the-line Victor / JVC mm cartridge and one of the best in my won list, but as i said earlier i sold my NOS X1II for more than $1300 in Europe. The X1II is an upgrade over the arlier X1 model which normally goes for up to $750 is the damper is good (i owned 2 samples). The integrated stylus protector of the X1 cause the resonance, so on the next and more expensive model (X1II) it was removed. The Victor X1IIE (Elliptical) is just one step behind the X1II (Shibata) and the current price is about $400-600 depends on condition (i owned one sample), the original nude Elliptical stylus of Victor X1IIE mounted on hollow pipe Beryllium Cantilever to reduce the mass! So the JICO is not on the same level of performance at all. Just look at at the picture of my original X1IIE stylus/cantilever assembly: https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16195371_1551292488222246_1696000909517507772_n.jpg?oh...So if you want to use Jico look for Z1 model which is very cheap cartridge. If you want a top performer look for X1, X1II or at least for X1IIE in perfect share and don’t forget to ask about damper condition. P.S. There is also JVC X2 model branded JVC for European and US market, i never tried this, but it might be an upgrade over the X1II (they looks identical). |
@chakster Thanks for your response. Much appreciated!
I guess I'll have to suck it and see/hear for myself how the Azzurra sounds.
@halcro I've recently seen a number of Victor X-1/IIs listed on Jauce (all used, some without stylus). |
Dear @jessica_severin: Even that in the thread was discussed in a wide way seems to me that today gentlemans like chaster enthusiast still has a misunderstood on the X1MK2.
The top of the line and the best quality performer certainly is not the Victor model but the one with the JVC denomination that comes in the cartridge top plateBoth cartridges, JVC/Victor made it by JVC and the one to look for is the: JVC X1MK2 that due that you are in Japan sooner or latter maybe you can put your hands on.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
@jls001 The X1 or XII without styli are useless as you will never find an original stylus for this model and there is no equal replacement, because beryllium is restricted to use nowadays (no more beryllium cantilevers).
The Jico make sence only for cheap Z-1 models, but not for the superior and expensive X-1 or X-II.
Even rare JVC X-2 cartridge body is on ebay for ages and still unsold. This cartridge is a top performer ONLY with original shibata stylus and original beryllium pipe cantilever. |
@rauliruegas as far as i know the product made for Japanese market always branded Victor, while the products for international market (outside of japan) always branded JVC.
here is a bit of history: Victor Company of Japan, Ltd, usually referred to as JVC or The Japan Victor Company. JVC is generally known within Japan by the Victor brand, preceded by the His Master's Voice (HMV) logo featuring the dog Nipper. Because of a conflict in trademarks between HMV and Victor, HMV is not allowed to use Nipper in Japan. At one time, the company used the Nivico name (for " Nippon Victor Company") overseas, before rebranding to JVC, which stands for Japan’s Victor Company. Therefore, the Victor and JVC-Victor web sites look quite different.
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That's not the issue but which one has better quality performance levels and this is the JVC one.
R. |
I can’t comment on quality difference between X1II and X-2, but to prove that we need somebody else who has both on hands.
BTW the Victor X1 also branded JVC X1 in German catalogs for example. But in that catalog of all JVC cartridges you will not find X-1II model (only X-2). Why? logically betwen X-1 and X-2 must be X-1II (which was released after X-1). In my opinion the X-2 is nothing less than X-1II but made for the export and branded JVC instead of Victor with the same specs, same stylus etc. I think they just tried to simplify marketing using just X1 and X2 names to show the difference between these models, it's easier than using X1 and X1II and X1IIE in Japan.
Just a different branding for different markets, i don’t think the quality demands is higher in Europe than in Japan to make an export version JVC any better.
This is just my opinion.
Everyone can check two JVC X-2 cartridges on ebay now (without styli of course) to find out they are made by victor company of japan. There is a specs for JVC X-2 in the listing from Italian seller. If someone will fins the difference in specifications between this European X-2 and Japanese X-1II please report here. |
Hi everyone There were three different X1II, but the one I liked went fast (buy now 20,000¥ about $200) and it had headshell and probably an original berillium shibata stylus. One is 22,800¥ with headshell and newish jico X1eII stylus. Last one is 9800¥ for just a bare body but looks in good shape. I wish I would have jumped on the first one but the description said he bought used and looked at stylus and thinks still ok. So I suspect maybe it wasn’t in such good shape and that’s why he did a 20,000¥ buy now. I’m tempted by the bare body one and think about a jico stylus later. All on Yahoo auctions, probably the same ones you see on jauce
Been playing my new AT15sa and Z1Eb this morning. Both are lovely. The Z1 came with a square shank nude nagaoka stylus. We can get replacement stylus both from nagaoka and jico here and looks like previous owner got a nagaoka (name is etched into the plastic). Looking at the stylus under my loope in has a bit of an extreme shape, maybe a hyperelliptical, but might actually be shibata. It's also really sensitive to SRA which makes me think it isn't a simple elliptical. I’ll bring it to work next week and have a look under one of our nice labratory microscopes. All I can say is the Z1 with this nude square shank nagaoka stylus is really good. I will maybe listen as is for the month and grab a jico Neo/SAS next month.
The AT15SA has original shibata but it looks like the suspension is a bit worn out. I have to setup with 0.9-1g tracking force to prevent the image from smearing. It has an even natural response and lovely imaging and inner detail with this setup, but seems to be lacking a bit of "life". Expressions on certain oboe solo lps I know well are just a bit off and lacking something, maybe microdynamics. I will keep playing with the setup. It definitely is showing enough promise to keep playing, but the Z1 with mystery nagaoka stylus is more enjoyable right now even if the AT15sa ticks more audiophile boxes. Definitely happy with these and will keep adjusting setup.
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I will repeat it once again that orange Jico stylus for X1II-E is nothing special, it has cheap Alluminum cantilever and Elliptical tip, while the original has hollow pipe Beryllium Cantilever (equal or better than most expensive Boron) and Nude Square Shank Shibata stylus tip. The shape of this original cantilever is unique (not straight as you can see) and it’s hard to mix it up with Jico straight alluminum cantilever. The original is a day and night compared to Jico. So the Jico replacement will bring a broken cartridge back to work, but this combination is far away in terms of quality compared to the original stylus in perfect shape (in case with Victor for sure). Same about most of the cartridges, even SAS (the most expensive Jico) is not beat the original styli of the top quality cartridges. I have posted long time ago that Technics 205ED4 (for example) was superior compared to Jico SAS, because the original has the lowest tip mass, nude diamond, hollow pipe boron cantilever etc. The SAS stylus is cool, but not better than the best vintage design such as Audio-Technica Micro Line (equal to Micro Ridge) etc. Jico is a compromise between the cost and quality, it’s not for everyone taste. New generation of JICO SAS is expensive and it make sence only if the cartridge body cost nothing. Taking in count expensive cartridge generator and the cost of Jico SAS you will find out it’s easier to seach for the original working cartridge in very good stock condition for $400-700 (with the most advanced stylus like Micro Line) for exampe, than making hybrid of the old generator and new JICO NEO SAS stylus (which cost alone more than $400 for some models). I have to mention that for the price they charge for JICO NEO SAS any original cartridge can be re-tipper or re-cantilevered by well known masters with the cantilever and tip of our choice. Design of the JICO styli for some models (like technics 205) is awful compared to the original, same about Sound Smith design of his replacement styli for F-9 cartridges. I just don’t like the design and i don’t understand why they can’t make a perfect looking replacement if they charge so much for their products. Seems like the designers in the 70s and 80s were more qualified and i prefer their taste. I’m always up for the originals since each high-end cartridge tuned by the designer of the cartridge and the material of the cantilever and stylus mass selected expecially for each model for the best sound possible (at the time) ! |
##jessica I’m tempted by the bare body one and think about a jico stylus later. I made the same trick last yeàr. X-1ii body paired with Jico. Drastic hit 'n' miss! Trust me , originally loaded X-1 or later version is the thing to put on target. e.g. many mid-range Glanz often discussed here outblow Victor with Jico easily by knockout. To my ears original X-1 has such a peculiar bass reproduction and specific headroom effect ( usually I prefer headphones to speakers ), the soundstange of the albums you know over 20-30 years turns into new revelation reality. |
chakster, hymanroath, are both of you referring to your experience with the Jico DT-X1E/II eliptical (orange) or Jico DT-X1/II shibata (clear)? I would get the shibata if I plan to try an X1mkII body. https://shop.jico.co.jp/products/detail.php?code=A017432Also back on page 233 griffithds said “The more time I spend with this JVC X1, the more I am convinced it is the best M/M I have ever heard. I am currently using the original stylus.... I must say that I heard no difference between it and the JICO replacement.” and early said " The best replacement stylus that JICO sells for the X1 is the Nivico DT X1 MK2. I have one of these and consider it as good as the X1 original." He also mentioned that he thought the Z1/SAS is basically same level as the X1. In the end the curiosity might get the better of me and I might have to experience an X1 + jico DT-X1/II shibata for myself and see if I like it or feel like you that it was a mistake. But don’t worry I will get a Neo/SAS Sapphire for my Z1 (follow common consensus here) before doing anything toward an X1. |
#jessica I dealt with clear one.
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it’s like apple and oranges -the clear jico has straight alluminum cantilever -the original has stiffer Beryllium cantilever with its unique construction (shape) with flat platform where the stylis is fastened (nude shibata originally invented by JVC Victor and Shibata-san).
I respect Don’s ( griffithds ) opinion, but personally i was more impressed by Victor X1II in mint condition than two used Victor X1 i have tried. Maybe it’s just because the X1II was mint (i already posted my pitures of the diamond of that one above). My X1II was mounted on Reed 3P "12 tonearm and it was definitely one of the best cartridge in my experience, stunning performer. The NOS unit went for $1300 on ebay this year. My cartridge at that time it was loaded only at 47k ohms, but i wish i could find another one to try it with my upgraded phono stage loaded at 100k ohms. The X1 samples i owned were not on the same level as the X1II
I don’t care about Jico styli, will search for the originals instead |
Dear chakster: " This is just my opinion. "
Problem with your opinion is that you can’t attest ( first hand ) on the quality level performance of the Victor against the JVC because you did not test both in your system as I did it.
Btw, I tested too the Z1 with JICO SAS and certainly is not in the same league.
Anyway, good history information.
regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
"
Problem with your opinion is that you can’t attest ( first hand ) on ..."
There is no problem with his opinion at all Raul so kindly leave him alone and the rest of us to conclude as we wish. You are always posting your "opinions" and have made some very extreme claims here remember how you "imagine" that a stylus first melts a record that then somehow miraculously actually freezes over after the stylus has past? Have you done ANY measurements at all to confirm that absurd claim no of course you have not. Everyone is entitled to express their opinions here and of all people you should recognize that you are in no position or place of authority to attack others for what they think. |
Dear chakster: If I remember ( too many years. ) David posted somewhere the differences in specs on those models. Maybe you can check with what you have for a coincidence ( he found out differences when you stated are the same. ) but at the end what’s important is to make tests in between.
Btw, jessica@severin: griffithds posted on those times talking on the same subject:
" They are btw all mounted on magnesium head shells and I have no intentions of un-mounting them only to see whether they are labeled JVC or Victor. "" and he never attested it. Was there where he said that were differences in those cartridge performance. He posted these after what you read it.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
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Ok, i will add specs for comparation from an old German JVC catalog.
In this catalog of cartridges even Victor X-1 labeled as JVC X-1.
For this reason i think it’s just a different branding of the same products. There is no JVC X-1II in the cat, but there is JVC X-2.
The European models line is JVC X-1 followed by JVC X-2 (nothing in between).
JVC X-1 (labeled JVC on top plate): ......................................................... - Nude Shibata mkII (0.15 mm square shank) DT-X1 *** - Output 2.7mV (5cm/sec) 1kHz *** - Channel Balance < 1dB - Channel Separation 25dB (1kHz) - Channel Separation 20dB (30kHz) - Impedance 2,2kOhm (1kHz) - Dynamic Compliance 12x10-6 cm/Dyn (100Hz) - Loading 47kOhm - 100kOhm - Tracking force 1,7 (+/- 0,15g) *** - Frequency response: 10 - 60000 Hz - Weight 6g ***
JVC X-2 (labeled JVC on side): .......................................................... - Nude Shibata mkII (0.15 mm square shank) DT-X2 *** - Output 3mV (5cm/sec) 1kHz *** - Channel Balance < 1dB - Channel Separation 25dB (1kHz) - Channel Separation 20dB (30kHz) - Impedance 2,2kOhm (1kHz) - Dynamic Compliance 12x10-6 cm/Dyn (100Hz) - Loading 47kOhm - 100kOhm - Tracking force 1,5 (+/- 0,2g) *** - Frequency response: 10 - 60000 Hz - Weight 7,5g ***
*** The difference between JVC X-1 and JVC X-2 is output, tracking force and cartridge own weight, i think the stylus tip is the same.
P.S.
Looking at this specs i assume the Victor X-1 and JVC X-1 are identical ! Also the Victor X-1II and JVC X-2 are identical too.
The Japanese Victor X-1II called JVC X-2 to sell in Europe not to be confused with JVC X1 and that was a good idea.
I will say more, there is no difference between JVC X-2 and cheaper Victor X-1IIE (only the stylus tip), but the specs of the generator is the same.
Maybe someone has more specs copied from the manual, if so please add link to check.
And BTW: label JVC on TT-101 turntable does not make it better than Victor TT-101 turntable. |
I would also believe that with 35+ year old cartridges, and the fact that the Victor/JVC Z1 and X1 were consumer products, I would assume that normal production variability and variable aging would more likely explain why some Victor/JVC X2/X1II might be better than others now. I don’t doubt that in Raul’s sampling that his JVC X2 is better (and different) for him to his Victor X1II, but I would think that with such old cartridges, one is better off searching for the cleanest/best/NOS example of either the JVC or Victor. I’m fairly certain that in the 1970s/80s that Japanese audio companies, high-end product production (like X1) was in Japan, just like today.
PS: my audio Technica AT15Sa is singing really well now with more tuning. But I’m fairly certain the suspension is weak and the original shibata stylus is worn. I can’t seem to rid it of mild sibilence/break-up distortion on louder sections (which my Denon DL 301II produces cleanly). The AT15Sa does sound fantastic on my favorite chamber music and jazz lps for 95% of the time. But those sibilent/mis-tracking fortissimo moments break the illusion of players in the room and remind me that it’s a reproduction. My Victor Z1Eb/nagaoka-stylus still has a lovely holistic sound which completely paints a realistic mid-room live picture, but does not have the detail of either my DL301II or AT15Sa. But for creating the illusion of live performance, it does a great job. I’m preferring the AT15sa right now though so it’s getting the most spin time
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