Dear friends: who really needs an MM type phono cartridge?, well I will try to share/explain with you what are my experiences about and I hope too that many of you could enrich the topic/subject with your own experiences.
For some years ( in this forum ) and time to time I posted that the MM type cartridge quality sound is better than we know or that we think and like four months ago I start a thread about: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&5#Rauliruegas where we analyse some MM type cartridges.
Well, in the last 10-12 months I buy something like 30+ different MM type phono cartridges ( you can read in my virtual system which ones. ) and I’m still doing it. The purpose of this fact ( “ buy it “ ) is for one way to confirm or not if really those MM type cartridges are good for us ( music lovers ) and at the same time learn about MM vs MC cartridges, as a fact I learn many things other than MM/MC cartridge subject.
If we take a look to the Agon analog members at least 90% of them use ( only ) MC phono cartridges, if we take a look to the “ professional reviewers “ ( TAS, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, etc, etc, ) 95% ( at least ) of them use only MC cartridges ( well I know that for example: REG and NG of TAS and RJR of Stereophile use only MM type cartridges!!!!!!!! ) , if we take a look to the phono cartridge manufacturers more than 90% of them build/design for MC cartridges and if you speak with audio dealers almost all will tell you that the MC cartridges is the way to go.
So, who are wrong/right, the few ( like me ) that speak that the MM type is a very good alternative or the “ whole “ cartridge industry that think and support the MC cartridge only valid alternative?
IMHO I think that both groups are not totally wrong/right and that the subject is not who is wrong/right but that the subject is : KNOW-HOW or NON KNOW-HOW about.
Many years ago when I was introduced to the “ high end “ the cartridges were almost MM type ones: Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Empire, etc, etc. In those time I remember that one dealer told me that if I really want to be nearest to the music I have to buy the Empire 4000 D ( they say for 4-channel reproduction as well. ) and this was truly my first encounter with a “ high end cartridge “, I buy the 4000D I for 70.00 dls ( I can’t pay 150.00 for the D III. ), btw the specs of these Empire cartridges were impressive even today, look: frequency response: 5-50,000Hz, channel separation: 35db, tracking force range: 0.25grs to 1.25grs!!!!!!!!, just impressive, but there are some cartridges which frequency response goes to 100,000Hz!!!!!!!!!!
I start to learn about and I follow to buying other MM type cartridges ( in those times I never imagine nothing about MC cartridges: I don’t imagine of its existence!!!. ) like AKG, Micro Acoustics, ADC, B&O, Audio Technica, Sonus, etc, etc.
Years latter the same dealer told me about the MC marvelous cartridges and he introduce me to the Denon-103 following with the 103-D and the Fulton High performance, so I start to buy and hear MC cartridges. I start to read audio magazines about either cartridge type: MM and Mc ones.
I have to make changes in my audio system ( because of the low output of the MC cartridges and because I was learning how to improve the performance of my audio system ) and I follow what the reviewers/audio dealers “ speak “ about, I was un-experienced !!!!!!!, I was learning ( well I’m yet. ).
I can tell you many good/bad histories about but I don’t want that the thread was/is boring for you, so please let me tell you what I learn and where I’m standing today about:
over the years I invested thousands of dollars on several top “ high end “ MC cartridges, from the Sumiko Celebration passing for Lyras, Koetsu, Van denHul, to Allaerts ones ( just name it and I can tell that I own or owned. ), what I already invest on MC cartridges represent almost 70-80% price of my audio system.
Suddenly I stop buying MC cartridges and decide to start again with some of the MM type cartridges that I already own and what I heard motivate me to start the search for more of those “ hidden jewels “ that are ( here and now ) the MM phono cartridges and learn why are so good and how to obtain its best quality sound reproduction ( as a fact I learn many things other than MM cartridge about. ).
I don’t start this “ finding “ like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges. The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.
First than all I try to identify and understand the most important characteristics ( and what they “ means “. ) of the MM type cartridges ( something that in part I already have it because our phonolinepreamp design needs. ) and its differences with the MC ones.
Well, first than all is that are high output cartridges, very high compliance ones ( 50cu is not rare. ), low or very low tracking force ones, likes 47kOhms and up, susceptible to some capacitance changes, user stylus replacement, sometimes we can use a different replacement stylus making an improvement with out the necessity to buy the next top model in the cartridge line , low and very low weight cartridges, almost all of them are build of plastic material with aluminum cantilever and with eliptical or “ old “ line contact stylus ( shibata ) ( here we don’t find: Jade/Coral/Titanium/etc, bodies or sophisticated build material cantilevers and sophisticated stylus shape. ), very very… what I say? Extremely low prices from 40.00 to 300.00 dls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, well one of my cartridges I buy it for 8.99 dls ( one month ago ): WOW!!!!!!, so any one of you can/could have/buy ten to twenty MM cartridges for the price of one of the MC cartridge you own today and the good notice is that is a chance that those 10-20 MM type cartridges even the quality performance of your MC cartridge or beat it.
Other characteristics is that the builders show how proud they were/are on its MM type cartridges design, almost all those cartridges comes with a first rate box, comes with charts/diagrams of its frequency response and cartridge channel separation ( where they tell us which test recording use it, with which VTF, at which temperature, etc, etc. ), comes with a very wide explanation of the why’s and how’s of its design and the usual explanation to mount the cartridge along with a very wide list of specifications ( that were the envy of any of today MC ones where sometimes we really don’t know nothing about. ), comes with a set of screws/nuts, comes with a stylus brush and even with stylus cleaning fluid!!!!!!!!!, my GOD. Well, there are cartridges like the Supex SM 100MK2 that comes with two different stylus!!!! One with spherical and one with elliptical/shibata shape and dear friends all those in the same low low price!!!!!!!!!!!
Almost all the cartridges I own you can find it through Ebay and Agon and through cartridge dealers and don’t worry if you loose/broke the stylus cartridge or you find the cartridge but with out stylus, you always can/could find the stylus replacement, no problem about there are some stylus and cartridge sources.
When I’m talking about MM type cartridges I’m refer to different types: moving magnet, moving iron, moving flux, electret, variable reluctance, induced magnet, etc, etc. ( here is not the place to explain the differences on all those MM type cartridges. Maybe on other future thread. ).
I made all my very long ( time consuming ) cartridge tests using four different TT’s: Acoustic Signature Analog One MK2, Micro Seiki RX-5000, Luxman PD 310 and Technics SP-10 MK2, I use only removable headshell S and J shape tonearms with 15mm on overhang, I use different material build/ shape design /weight headshells. I test each cartridge in at least three different tonearms and some times in 3-4 different headshells till I find the “ right “ match where the cartridge perform the best, no I’m not saying that I already finish or that I already find the “ perfect “ match: cartridge/headshell/tonearm but I think I’m near that ideal target.
Through my testing experience I learn/ confirm that trying to find the right tonearm/headshell for any cartridge is well worth the effort and more important that be changing the TT. When I switch from a TT to another different one the changes on the quality cartridge performance were/are minimal in comparison to a change in the tonearm/headshell, this fact was consistent with any of those cartridges including MC ones.
So after the Phonolinepreamplifier IMHO the tonearm/headshell match for any cartridge is the more important subject, it is so important and complex that in the same tonearm ( with the same headshell wires ) but with different headshell ( even when the headshell weight were the same ) shape or build material headshell the quality cartridge performance can/could be way different.
All those experiences told me that chances are that the cartridge that you own ( MC or MM ) is not performing at its best because chances are that the tonearm you own is not the best match for that cartridge!!!!!!, so imagine what do you can/could hear when your cartridge is or will be on the right tonearm???!!!!!!!!, IMHO there are ( till today ) no single ( any type at any price ) perfect universal tonearm. IMHO there is no “ the best tonearm “, what exist or could exist is a “ best tonearm match for “ that “ cartridge “, but that’s all. Of course that are “ lucky “ tonearms that are very good match for more than one cartridge but don’t for every single cartridge.
I posted several times that I’m not a tonearm collector, that I own all those tonearms to have alternatives for my cartridges and with removable headshells my 15 tonearms are really like 100+ tonearms : a very wide options/alternatives for almost any cartridge!!!!!!
You can find several of these MM type cartridges new brand or NOS like: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Technica, Astatic, B&O, Rega, Empire, Sonus Reson,Goldring,Clearaudio, Grado, Shelter, Garrot, etc. and all of them second hand in very good operational condition. As a fact I buy two and even three cartridges of the same model in some of the cartridges ( so right now I have some samples that I think I don’t use any more. ) to prevent that one of them arrive in non operational condition but I’m glad to say that all them arrive in very fine conditions. I buy one or two of the cartridges with no stylus or with the stylus out of work but I don’t have any trouble because I could find the stylus replacement on different sources and in some case the original new replacement.
All these buy/find cartridges was very time consuming and we have to have a lot of patience and a little lucky to obtain what we are looking for but I can asure you that is worth of it.
Ok, I think it is time to share my performance cartridge findings:
first we have to have a Phonolinepreamplifier with a very good MM phono stage ( at least at the same level that the MC stage. ). I’m lucky because my Phonolinepreamplifier has two independent phono stages, one for the MM and one for MC: both were designed for the specifics needs of each cartridge type, MM or MC that have different needs.
we need a decent TT and decent tonearm.
we have to load the MM cartridges not at 47K but at 100K ( at least 75K not less. ).
I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance.
I find too that using the manufacturer capacitance advise not always is for the better, till “ the end of the day “ I find that between 100-150pf ( total capacitance including cable capacitance. ) all the cartridges performs at its best.
I start to change the load impedance on MM cartridges like a synonymous that what many of us made with MC cartridges where we try with different load impedance values, latter I read on the Empire 4000 DIII that the precise load impedance must be 100kOhms and in a white paper of some Grace F9 tests the used impedance value was 100kOhms, the same that I read on other operational MM cartridge manual and my ears tell/told me that 100kOhms is “ the value “.
Before I go on I want to remember you that several of those MM type cartridges ( almost all ) were build more than 30+ years ago!!!!!!!! and today performs at the same top quality level than today MC/MM top quality cartridges!!!!!, any brand at any price and in some ways beat it.
I use 4-5 recordings that I know very well and that give me the right answers to know that any cartridge is performing at its best or near it. Many times what I heard through those recordings were fine: everything were on target however the music don’t come “ alive “ don’t “ tell me “ nothing, I was not feeling the emotion that the music can communicate. In those cartridge cases I have to try it in other tonearm and/or with a different headshell till the “ feelings comes “ and only when this was achieved I then was satisfied.
All the tests were made with a volume level ( SPL ) where the recording “ shines “ and comes alive like in a live event. Sometimes changing the volume level by 1-1.5 db fixed everything.
Of course that the people that in a regular manner attend to hear/heard live music it will be more easy to know when something is right or wrong.
Well, Raul go on!!: one characteristic on the MM cartridges set-up was that almost all them likes to ride with a positive ( little/small ) VTA only the Grace Ruby and F9E and Sonus Gold Blue likes a negative VTA , on the other hand with the Nagaoka MP 50 Super and the Ortofon’s I use a flat VTA.
Regarding the VTF I use the manufacturer advise and sometimes 0.1+grs. Of course that I made fine tuning through moderate changes in the Azymuth and for anti-skate I use between half/third VTF value.
I use different material build headshells: aluminum, composite aluminum, magnesium, composite magnesium, ceramic, wood and non magnetic stainless steel, these cartridges comes from Audio Technica, Denon, SAEC, Technics, Fidelity Research, Belldream, Grace, Nagaoka, Koetsu, Dynavector and Audiocraft. All of them but the wood made ( the wood does not likes to any cartridge. ) very good job . It is here where a cartridge could seems good or very good depending of the headshell where is mounted and the tonearm. Example, I have hard time with some of those cartridge like the Audio Technica AT 20SS where its performance was on the bright sound that sometimes was harsh till I find that the ceramic headshell was/is the right match now this cartridge perform beautiful, something similar happen with the Nagaoka ( Jeweltone in Japan ), Shelter , Grace, Garrot , AKG and B&O but when were mounted in the right headshell/tonearm all them performs great.
Other things that you have to know: I use two different cooper headshell wires, both very neutral and with similar “ sound “ and I use three different phono cables, all three very neutral too with some differences on the sound performance but nothing that “ makes the difference “ on the quality sound of any of my cartridges, either MM or MC, btw I know extremely well those phono cables: Analysis Plus, Harmonic Technologies and Kimber Kable ( all three the silver models. ), finally and don’t less important is that those phono cables were wired in balanced way to take advantage of my Phonolinepreamp fully balanced design.
What do you note the first time you put your MM cartridge on the record?, well a total absence of noise/hum or the like that you have through your MC cartridges ( and that is not a cartridge problem but a Phonolinepreamp problem due to the low output of the MC cartridges. ), a dead silent black ( beautiful ) soundstage where appear the MUSIC performance, this experience alone is worth it.
The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely “ easy “ with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I can’t explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard “ sounds/notes “ that you never before heard it and you even don’t know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!
IMHO I think that the MUSIC run so easily through a MM cartridge due ( between other facts ) to its very high compliance characteristic on almost any MM cartridge.
This very high compliance permit ( between other things like be less sensitive to out-center hole records. ) to these cartridges stay always in contact with the groove and never loose that groove contact not even on the grooves that were recorded at very high velocity, something that a low/medium cartridge compliance can’t achieve, due to this low/medium compliance characteristic the MC cartridges loose ( time to time and depending of the recorded velocity ) groove contact ( minute extremely minute loose contact, but exist. ) and the quality sound performance suffer about and we can hear it, the same pass with the MC cartridges when are playing the inner grooves on a record instead the very high compliance MM cartridges because has better tracking drive perform better than the MC ones at inner record grooves and here too we can hear it.
Btw, some Agoners ask very worried ( on more than one Agon thread ) that its cartridge can’t track ( clean ) the cannons on the 1812 Telarc recording and usually the answers that different people posted were something like this: “””” don’t worry about other than that Telarc recording no other commercial recording comes recorded at that so high velocity, if you don’t have trouble with other of your LP’s then stay calm. “””””
Well, this standard answer have some “ sense “ but the people ( like me ) that already has/have the experience to hear/heard a MM or MC ( like the Ortofon MC 2000 or the Denon DS1, high compliance Mc cartridges. ) cartridge that pass easily the 1812 Telarc test can tell us that those cartridges make a huge difference in the quality sound reproduction of any “ normal “ recording, so it is more important that what we think to have a better cartridge tracking groove drive!!!!
There are many facts around the MM cartridge subject but till we try it in the right set-up it will be ( for some people ) difficult to understand “ those beauties “. Something that I admire on the MM cartridges is how ( almost all of them ) they handle the frequency extremes: the low bass with the right pitch/heft/tight/vivid with no colorations of the kind “ organic !!” that many non know-how people speak about, the highs neutral/open/transparent/airy believable like the live music, these frequency extremes handle make that the MUSIC flow in our minds to wake up our feelings/emotions that at “ the end of the day “ is all what a music lover is looking for. These not means that these cartridges don’t shine on the midrange because they do too and they have very good soundstage but here is more system/room dependent.
Well we have a very good alternative on the ( very low price ) MM type cartridges to achieve that music target and I’m not saying that you change your MC cartridge for a MM one: NO, what I’m trying to tell you is that it is worth to have ( as many you can buy/find ) the MM type cartridges along your MC ones
I want to tell you that I can live happy with any of those MM cartridges and I’m not saying with this that all of them perform at the same quality level NO!! what I’m saying is that all of them are very good performers, all of them approach you nearest to the music.
If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard “ call “ an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:
Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.
There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III.
The other ones are very good too but less refined ones. I try too ( owned or borrowed for a friend ) the Shure IV and VMR, Music maker 2-3 and Clearaudio Virtuoso/Maestro, from these I could recommended only the Clearaudios the Shure’s and Music Maker are almost mediocre ones performers. I forgot I try to the B&O Soundsmith versions, well this cartridges are good but are different from the original B&O ( that I prefer. ) due that the Sounsmith ones use ruby cantilevers instead the original B&O sapphire ones that for what I tested sounds more natural and less hi-fi like the ruby ones.
What I learn other that the importance on the quality sound reproduction through MM type cartridges?, well that unfortunately the advance in the design looking for a better quality cartridge performers advance almost nothing either on MM and MC cartridges.
Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them easily.
Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment, but this is only my HO.
I know that there are many things that I forgot and many other things that we have to think about but what you can read here is IMHO a good point to start.
Thank you Chakster for those specs. Anyone who truly believes that Victor (in Japan) would have a production line producing two differing versions of the same cartridge and deciding to sell the better-sounding one in Europe alone is delusional. Good point about the Victor vs JVC TT-101....👏
Jessica, there are a few on this Forum who will do anything to prove that they have the best...the VERY best.....BETTER than anyone else has regardless of the truth. I remember one chap a few years ago who wrote that he had just acquired a Victor TT-71 turntable and compared it directly to the TT-81 and TT-101 and proclaimed it better than both these higher-end models. The fact that he had never heard a TT-81 or TT-101 previously, but was suddenly able to have both these models (together with his new TT-71) available side by side with identical arms and cartridges is a minor miracle. Particularly as I believe he resided in Mexico at the time...?
Believing a claim that someone has a Victor X1, a JVC X1 and the SAS stylus to go with them is a ’stretch’, particularly when the JVC X1 is the only one ever seen ’For Sale’ ......😎
Dear @chakster : The JVC I speak is the one labeled X-1 at the top cartridge plate, the model is: JVC X-1 MK2 and is different on what you are attesting. The side labeled is different.
X1 JVC model is the top in the JVC series where the X2 is one step down and not as what @jessica_severin posted.
In your information the X1 has lower output and this means lower inductance too that's always better for a better quality performance level.
Raul, Not to be a nitpicker, but the Stanton 980LZS has about 10- to 100-fold lower inductance than does the typical MM cartridge, along with much less signal gain. Yet you've always maintained that you prefer the HZS (high output) version, with its higher inductance. Maybe you shouldn't generalize. But maybe also your statement reflects your recent espousal of MC cartridges "uber alles".
The JVC I speak is the one labeled X-1 at the top cartridge plate, the model is: JVC X-1 MK2 and is different on what you are attesting. The side labeled is different.
I have dejavu now Here is a pair of my X1 labeled Victor.
And here is my NOS X-1II labeled Victor on the side and on the top. I've never seen any Victor JVC with lettering mk2, they use lettering X-1II only (as you can see on the box).
Do you mean that on your sample you have lettering "MK2" instead of "II" ? But I think you're talking about X-1II (NOT the "X-1 mk2") cartridge labeled JVC or JVC Victor?
Dear @lewm : Good point. I don't have any more the 981LZS sample but for me the adding gain stage needs for the LZS makes a difference against the HZS and that's all.
I own the 981HZS that I use with the original Pickering stylus ( same as the 981. ) and this one is better quality performer than either: the LZS and the HZS with Stanton stylus. Is something to listen and to have/own.
Dear @chakster : Yeras ago I explain it in wide way and I don't have the time to get back again.
The JVC X-1 MK2 is different and at the front of the stylus holder statest is for 4-channels, even the stylus holder is different and larger than the normal one.
A non-Victor question... I was given a Technics EPC-205-Mk4 cartridge, in the integrated headshell. Big problem — smashed cantilever. Otherwise almost brand new. The cartridge has a good reputation, but that doesn’t mean I’ll like it. I want to get a "taste" before making a commitment.
• There are generics from the usual suspects for around $25. • LP Gear has one for $40, and it specifies "Mk4". • Jico has an elliptical for $70. That’s my max for an experiment.
(The Jico and LP Gear are Gold colored, as is the original. They might both even be Jico...? It's fire-engine red, and with the big Gold stylus holder, it has a Testarossa vibe, so I'd like the original colors; most carts are pretty drab.)
I only want to spend minimal $ at this stage, just to get an idea, in case I’m not enthusiastic — if I fall in love, I’ll gladly spring for a SAS, or have the busted stylus rebuilt.
Do any of you have experience of third-party styli for this famous cart? There might be a really good one out there....
@bimasta this is all bulshit, without original cantilever and original stylus this 205c MK4 cartridge is a waste of time and money. None of the existing replacement is equal to the original (the original has the lowest tip mass and hollow pipe Boron cantilever), even Jico Neo SAS (sapphire or ruby) is not on the same level, but way out of your budget.
Do you expect to pay $70 to get $800 cartridge back to life? What do you expect from the cheap aftermarket styli with aluminum cantilever and elliptical tip (probably bonded and not nude).
The best is Jico SAS, nothing else. But it looks ugly as they have plain black front side. A friend in Finland who purchased my 205c mk4 is happy with Jico NEW SAS stylus, but i was not happy and prefered the original, here is a picture of my originals. Great cartridge if you can find one with strong suspension (it’s almost impossible).
You can also rebuild the cartridge, but it’s expensive and take too much time. Axel in Germany did the job for some of my 205c mk4 and 100c mk3. It was lost time ago. The price is more expensive than Jico Neo SAS. When i finally managed to get mint original Technics 205c mk4 i realized it’s better than Axels rebuilded versions, but his version was better than Jico SAS (Boron). Not sure if Van Den Hul can do the job or someone can do that for him, but if you checked this thread you know that almost all owners of the more expensive Technics 100 mk4 asked for van Ven Den Hul treatment and it was very expensive option.
I just realized that Victor X-1IIE has titanium cantilever, not sure if the information is correct, but here you read more. I thought it's beryllium, but if the X-1IIE (Orange, Elliptical) has a titanium cantilever, the only Berylluim one is the X-1II (Clear, Shibata) and the earlier X-1 model.
I just realized that Victor X-1IIE has titanium cantilever, not sure if the information is correct, buthere you readmore. I thought it's beryllium, but if the X-1IIE (Orange, Elliptical) has a titanium cantilever, the only Berylluim one is the X-1II (Clear, Shibata) and the earlier X-1 model.
Doesn't seem to be a reliable source... Vinyl Engine has it as 'beryllium' 😎 That source also has frequency extending to 40K Hz whereas Vinyl Engine has 60K Hz.
@halcro right, i remember when i sold mine i was pretty sure it’s beryllium, but now i see a few sellers stated X-1IIE as titanium cantilever, i’m a bit confused. Maybe i missed something? Anyway, i think Elliptical X-1IIE is not extended to 60kHz as Shibata X-1II with beryllium cantilever, and 40kHz for X-1IIE is more realistic. But titanium or beryllium? I can’t sleep now.
The are both original, but way different from each other, the X-1IIE is hollow pipe and straight (conventional design), but the X-1II is flattened (different shape) and this is Beryllium for sure.
But the X-1IIE can be Titanium, maybe it’s too dark on my picture, but in reality it is not so dark. Maybe there are two version of IIE model (one with beryllium and one with titanium?)
@chakster Lots of interesting info and photos. Thanks for taking the time and effort. Any idea how different are the Shibata and the Elliptical, sound wise? I came across a few listings of X-1 IIs in various avatars but hesitant to pull the trigger as I've become confused:)
Where would the Astatic MF200 (or even MF100) stand vis-a-vis the X-1 II Shibata? At least the MFs show up once in a while NOS.
Where would the Astatic MF200 (or even MF100) stand vis-a-vis the X-1 II Shibata? At least the MFs show up once in a while NOS.
You’re welcome. In my experience the Victor X1 (Shibata) and Victor X1II (Shibata) are much better cartridges than Astatic MF100 / MF200 (or the Glanz MF31 / MF71).
Raul pointed that X1 is better than X-1II, but i think it depends on the condition of the particular sample on hands. My X-1II was superiour to X-1 (i owned two samples on X-1).
The X-1II is an exceptional MM cartridge and i sold my NOS sample due financial problems this year. I like the X-1II much better than X-1 because the built-in stylus protector of the X-1 may cause undesirable resonance (it’s been pointed by our brother Don), it’s old fashioned design, the later X-II has removable stylus protector and it’s better solution. Construction of the stylus/cantilever assembly (Shibata/Beryllium) is the same on X-1 and X-1II, but the latest model is a bit heavier and bigger (i like that too).
The slightly cheaper Elliptical version of the X-1II called X-1IIE and this cartridge is also amazing, but avoid the Jico replacement stylus, the color of the jico replacement is also orange, but the cantilever of the Jico replacement is alluminum and of course can’t compete with the original stiff (Titanium or Beryllium)! I think we have to find manual somehow to make sure was it a Titanium or Beryllium cantilever on the original X-1IIE model.
Hola Raul saludos! Back in the thread after a few years! hope is all well! I want to ask you how is the empire edr9 and ltd750 are considered after all different MM,s you, ve tried in the last few years. BTW I had both, and had a very good time with them while they lasted. The EDr9 Stylus was smashed by my kid. Later I instaled the 750ltd and that one after not more than 300 hours started sounding harsh and I discovered I ruined 3 or 4 lp,s and took it out. Since getting original replacments is hard these days , I was wondering if a SAS Jico model could fit. Also, do you think is worth it, considering that there could be a suspensión damage in the 750 ltd. Best regards ,Carlos
I think that the Ortofon 2M Black is the best MM made today. In our setup and test with an oscilloscope and a real distortion analyzer, it had much lower distortion on a series of test records than several MCs over $2500. It can track just about anything. Especially good for those who prefer (older) tube preamps that tend to dull the high frequencies and rolloff the bottom end as well as any that have lots of noise. It has a 5mv output at standard frequencies and be paired with many arms. Oh, we also did blind listening tests after the several MM including the Ortofon 2M Black cartridge were measured. The audience did not know the results of the distortion analysis nor were they in the same room with the TT. This reduced expectation bias. Some of the records were audiophile standards but some new licorice was included. Records were cleaned on a VPI before listening. Almost universally the audience preferred the Ortofon.
@ivanj unfortunately nobody really cares about high-end MM cartridges anymore, manufacturers focused on trendy MC design for audiophiles, dealers love it because margine is crazy. But the best MM cartridges are from the 70s and 80s. Those vintage cartridges are still available and worth the price today even in used condition. I don’t know why should we concern about modern MM cartridges if they are not even close to the best vintage MM cartridges? I think the High-End Moving Magnet cartridges are all about vintage heritage. Personally i was not impressed by the M2 series, each time people start talking about modern Ortofon i would like to address them back to the mid 70s or early 80s when all the best MM were made. It's nice than some big manufacturers like the Ortofon, Nagaoka, AT ... still makes MM cartridges, but do you believe those carts are equal to the old high-end MM design released back in the days when MM was a King, not the MC ?
It’s seems like the best Ortofon MC is also not the last (modern) expensive models, but the old Ortofon MC 2000 (and not even the mk2) adored by many a’gon members.
If you are talking about blind test for "audience", Carlos, you must be a dealer or shop owner? You have to add some of the best vintage MM next time you will organize such blind testing and then you will see.
I'd like to expand the title of this threat to "Who needs a low output MM cartridge type when we have hight output MC ?" Seriously, i'd like to learn more sbout this subject. I have couple of High Output MC cartridges which i like a lot, as much as my low output MMs.
One of the rarest HOMC beast i have is Dynavector 30A with Shibata Type III stylus. I just mounted this beauty on my Sony PUA-7. This is my first Dynavector, it was released 1 year before the Karat series and 4 years before Karat Nova. The first high output Moving Coil Dynavector 30 was the next generation of the Ultimo cartridges. The Ultimo’s were manufactured by Onlife Research Inc., which later became Dynavector. The 30 series was the next generation and contains 3 different models DV-30A, 30B and 30C. All of them are headshell integrated models.
With my JLTi phono stage i can use whatever RCA plug-in load resistors to experiment with different loading. I really like the sound of this 1.8mV HOMC Dynavector 30A.
Not so much information available online about this rare cartridge, but see what Mr. Van Den Hul said about it:
"This Dynavector DV-30 was one of the best Dynavector cartridge they made. I have retipped this cartridge already a long time ago. You can read on the other side my inscriptions about when and what. The cantilever is made of beryllium, an actually not used material anymore. It was at the time a very high respected cartridge.
There was the 30 A: Aluminum cantilever. The 30 B with a beryllium cantilever and the 30 C with a boron cantilever. The A & B had equal output, when I do remember well. The C was much lower because there was an air-coil. The suspension wire was always from nylon, so very temperature sensitive. Tracking force was 1,75 gram. The best is to listen to this cartridge. At the time it sounded a bit harsh what was translated by the un-experienced ear in detail and resolution. Wish you success with this cartridge and, when you have time left, tell me what you did like and what not. With Best Regards" - Aalt Jouk Van Den Hul
So what is the benefits of low output MM (around 1.8mV) versus high Output MC or vise-versa ? Anyone can comment on this subject?
"If you are talking about blind test for "audience", Carlos, you must be a dealer or shop owner? You have to add some of the best vintage MM next time you will organize such blind testing and then you will see."
Hi Chakster, Not at all, actually I'm looking for just advice on what to do with my two empire stylus less cartridges. As mentioned before i bought them with Raul,s good advice from an ebay dealer in France and I trully enjoyed them. right now I,m using a soundsmith re tipped Sumiko BPS (HOMC) which sounds better than the original sumiko.
Chakster, As Raul and I discussed further up the thread, a low output MM will tend to have lower inductance compared to a typical high output MM. Look up the specs for any typical HOMM and compare the inductance to that of a Stanton 980LZS, for example. Also, keep in mind that many of us conflate "low output MM" with cartridges that are actually MI types. MI types tend to have "low output" compared to a typical HOMM, as well. And they also tend to have low inductance. Without looking it up, I think I recall that the 980LZS has at least 10-fold less inductance than its HO brother, the 980HZS. Classic HOMMs are in the 500mH (milli-Henry) range of inductance. Classic LOMCs are in the low micro-Henry range, for another example. (More than a 1000-fold difference.)
My Jico neo-sas (sapphire) cartridge for my victor Z1Eb arrived tonight. Only have about 4hours in now but I am loving it. It wasn’t as difficult to setup as my AT15Sa (but it did need some azimuth adjustment, luckily my MA505 can do that). SRA/VTA seemed pretty easy to find the optimal setting. Running at 1.35gm VTF. Compared to my AT15Sa it is more transparent with better delineation and instrumental texture. Imaging is much more precise and images are rock solid with much better image depth. Bass is stronger and precise with better detail than the AT15sa, which was already showing the best bass in my system so far. Seems a very neutral sound. No problems with tracking or sibilant/distortions on loud passages (unlike my old AT15Sa). Super quiet with almost zero surface noise. Overall it seems very balanced, even with so few hours on it, with no obvious problems or failings. Don’t want to say it’s perfect, but so far it seems to capture all the best aspects of all the cartridges that I have owned so far with no issues. Brubeck and Herbie Hancock have never sounded this good! https://goo.gl/photos/3WGs9h1tCs2kNtaX7
Not sure about the ones sold outside Japan, but after I ordered it from shop.jico.co.jp they sent me an email saying that this neo-SAS is a special order and that they will make it for me and it will take a few days. My stylus also came with a frequency response graph from Jico, but not sure if it is a general one for this model, or if it was made for my stylus. It shows a very flat response 20hz to 10khz with a gentle 5db rise from 10khz to 20khz. This is exactly how it sounds. https://goo.gl/photos/TFi2p6eoVwW5W6dS7
I understand most of you guys here are very well off and can afford the best of the best and are looking for the ultimate vintage MM (or ultimate cartridge), and that the Z1/neo-SAS might not be the ultimate, but this seems very high quality to me. I guess I just want to say that even though this might not be the best, it should not be dismissed or ignored, especially when considering what it costs and how easy it is to get (I paid $50 for used Z1Eb + $200 for neo-SAS direct from Jico japan).
For anyone who has owned this Z1/SAS, how would this compare with say some of the current production $500-$3000 MM/MC out there (like nagaoka MP500, ortofon black, dynavector 20x 17d3 XX2, lyra delos,..)?
I still like my AT15Sa (seems similar but maybe a bit more romantic, or mid-room) but it definitely is not new and don’t know how many hours left it may have. I think this Z1/neo-SAS will definitely become my daily cartridge.
Thank you all for pointing me in this direction with the Z1/neo-SAS
Jessica, Tell us how you feel after 100 hours with your new stylus. After only 4 hours, speaking for myself only, I am usually still in love with anything new, if I've taken pains in advance with my purchasing decision. Subconscious bias is always a major factor in first impressions.
@halcro well, the japanese seller (on ebay) confirmed to me that Victor X-1IIE has TITANIUM CANTILEVER for sure. This is new information for me. If it's true then the X-1IIE is different from the X-1II not only because of the Elliptical stylus, but also cantilever is different (Titanium vs. Beryllium).
Can't remember any other cartridges with Titanium Cantilever, only the Audio-Technica.
@lewm, @chakster I understand and I am just comparing to what I have ownership experience with which is much less than others here (denon DL110, DL301ii, AT15Sa and a Grado black from my postgraduate study days). But I lived with various DL110 for about 10 years and was quite happy with them (and still enjoy them). For what it’s worth I probably have maybe 300-500hrs on my DL301ii (bought may 2016) and maybe 50-100hrs on my AT15Sa (about 1month old but getting maybe 2-3hrs/day of daily play) and my current feelings and impressions on those cartridges are the same now as after I got them adjusted. So I’m guessing that my relative-comparative-impressions of the Z1/neo-SAS will not change too much over the next months. But I will refrain from further comments until my 100hr has arrived. I wasn’t trying to contradict other’s greater experience, I just wanted to share my thanks with everyone.
Jessica, I’m pleased you are enjoying the Victor Z1/SAS. When I recommended this combination as the easiest way to sample the ’best’ of vintage MM cartridges, it was with the benefit of years of buying and testing over 60 various models from the ’Golden Years’.
I would certainly be interested in hearing your ongoing impressions of all your cartridges as, unlike others....I have been able to discern the relative qualities of almost every cartridge I’ve owned in the very first listening sessions. Amongst all the cartridges I have auditioned over the last 40 years, only two or three changed character significantly during extended ’run-in’....and I forget which ones they were 🤔 This is not to disparage those who claim otherwise, rather than to reinforce that your experiences match mine.
As you say....for the ease and relatively minor costs involved, the Z1/SAS is a jewel. As for how it compares with other higher-cost cartridges.....I happily listen to it alongside the $10,000 Acoustical Systems Palladian LOMC and it trounces the Lyra Atlas in my system....🎶
I remember everyone's favorite was AT20SLa and i'm still curious what's the different between AT20SLa and limited edition AT20SL (Beryllium,Shibata) ? Not so much info on vinylengine about them. Has anyone compared them with original styli (not the aftermarket ones) ?
Well I don't know about that....! It was never mine.... I had the AT-20SS Limited Edition with both after-market and original AT stylus and found it (with both styli) to be anaemic, shrill and uncomfortable. One of the few cartridges I persisted with in the hope it would 'change' after 'run-in'. It didn't.....and selling it was a happy day 🤗 Life's too short...
Oh Jessica...... You might want to reduce your VTF to 1.25Gm as I recall Jico being pretty insistent on not exceeding this tracking force...🤓 Regards Henry
I haven't had my analog rig set up since 1990, so take this comment with a grain of salt. When my big living room system was at its peak in our previous house (VPI TT/Grado Arm/Vandersteen 4s/tube amps, preamps), I found out the hard way these 2 things about cartridges: 1 - In general, MC cartridges aligned with the "accurate/detailed/BRIGHT" school of sonic preferences that always seems ascendant in audio; 2 - Also in general, MM cartridges aligned to the "organic/relaxed/natural" school of sonic preferences that always seems in the decline in audio.
I had MCs; moved to several MMs. The best of all of them was a Grado MM whose model name I can't recall (it cost ~$500 in 1987, quite a lot for a MM back then). When I put that on the VPI, I soon stopped "listening the cartridge" (fretfully) and resumed simply listening to the music.
Of course, MCs impose that alternate universe of technical choices required to step-up the cartridge's output. I had a rather good MC step-up amp built into my preamp of that time (VTL Ultimate), so this was not my biggest concern. Still, anyone who listens to MCs has to wrestle with step-up devices, which by themselves can be fiercely expensive.
All in all, if I ever listen to vinyl again (~1,500 LPs stored in closets), it will be via a good MM on a VPI Prime TT.
So I received a NOS Astatic MF200 today and it's playing the tenth LP side as I type.
I have optimized arm alignment to the best that I'm capable of, and so far played around with incrementally positive VTA.
The sound was straightaway very likable. I can't but help compare it to the cartridge it just displaced (London Decca Super Gold) - they're surprisingly much more similar than different. I guess the damping of MF200 is on the lower side so it shares that sense of immediacy as the undamped cartridge. Highs are very nice without ever being harsh or sibilant. Midrange too, but I find the bass still shy. Playing around with VTA didn't change the bass weight.
So far I've also tried 47 kOhm/220 pF. Right now it's at 100 kOhm/340 pF.
Any idea what's the ideal combo?
I can go as low as 22K, 33K, 47K, or higher like 68K, 82K and 100K.
Caps can be varied from 10 pF, 50, 100, 150, 220, 270 pF (plus cabling capacitance of 120 pF from headshell to phono preamp input).
Dear @jls001: First than all and before you try to make the fine tunning that great MF200 needs at least 30-40 hours for the carrtridge sette down and from here use 100k-100pf and start to play with tiny changes in SRA/VTF and when be near of what you want then make tiny changes only in capacitance.
That cartridge is a reference level one. Congratulations.
I have a Grado cart that I love it's getting up there in hours now, I'd say around 1500.00. Still sounds good. But I'm just wondering about one of these mm from the vinyl heydays. What would you guys recommend. My table is a Nottingham ace294. My preamp is not adjustable. It is just a basic 47k with 39db gain. The output on the Grado is 5mv and that is about right and I wouldn't want something any lower with my systems 8watt amps.
@fourwnds i have Joseph Grado Signature XTZ which is probably the best Grado ever made. As you noticed i’m a big fan of Audio-Technica AT-ML series, this cartridges can compete with Grado XTZ and works fine at 47k standard. Not sure which Grado do you have and what is effective mass of your tonearm, but if you are looking for extended frequency range look for the vintage AT-ML170 or AT-ML180 with MicroLine (aka Micro Ridge) styli and you will never regret it! You can try to find replacement stylus of the higher model for your grado MI (or factory re-tip). But if you would like to try something different then the Grace F-9F with Shibata stylus is also very good cartridge. The rarest Grace LEVEL II BR/MR and F14 LC-OFC are absolutely amazing cartridges, i'm currently testing them (but they are very expensive). The original Victor X1II or X-1IIE are great carts with original styli. BTW you can replace resistors inside your prono stage, it’s easy. I did that with 3 of my phono preamps, started with the cheapest Grado PH-1 preamp, replaced cheap stock resistors with Vishay Naked Foid 100k resistors from Texas Components (bought on ebay) and it was huge upgrade. Then i did it with my reference phono stage before i bought the JLTi phono stage with plug-in load resistors (to avoid soldering each time i want to change the loading).
@chakster Hi Chakster, thank you for sharing your experiences and recommendations. i have a grado reference1 effective mass on arm is 15.5grams I’m looking forward to checking some of these carts out you recommended. I have been thinking I would let Andy@needleclinic retip the Grado also. Might be nice having a different cantilever and stylus on it. Or not but it’s a ways out before I need to cross that bridge. I should really learn how to change out those resistors. Everything is right there to get to. Are any of the carts you rec'd gonna require this and which are more "plug and play" standard?thanks!
When i decided to change resistors i asked our Lewm how to do that. And actually it was pretty easy if you or some of your friends are ok with soldering. Locate the 47k resistor by looking at your phono stage (or check at schematic) unsolder them and replace them with Vishay Naked Foil 100k resistors (they are the best audio resistors available today on the market). You need 2 of them (one per channel). Actually the cartridges i have mentioned are nice at 47k, but can be better at 100k (especially Grace F-9F designed for quadraphonic records). Manufacturers stated 47 - 100k load. So if you're for some reason not happy with 47k then try 100k and most likely you will be happy.
hello, I read this thread with big interest again. Happy to see that JVC MM Cartridges are still alive. I collected many of our carts of the month here. Today in evening you can find the very rare JVC X2 with original stylus and my Precept 440 with boron and shibata in flea bay. I wait for a Miyajima Kansui, so both MM's must go. Maybe this is interesting for someone to compare it to the X1. regards -especially to comrade nandric-.
I wonder if anyone ever tried to re-build the AT-ML180 or AT-ML170 cartridges. Apart from the working units i also have some broken units (no cantilevers). The last AT-ML180 was destroyed by a friend who decided to touch the cartridge at my studio and later i realized that cantilever disappeared, damn. There is a collar left, but no tip, no cantilever. Not sure what to do... In the past i have had re-cantilevered (rebuilded by Axel) Technics cartridges and they were pretty good. Not sure who can rebuild the old AT-ML series. or maybe someone looking for generators only :) ?
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
