Dear friends: who really needs an MM type phono cartridge?, well I will try to share/explain with you what are my experiences about and I hope too that many of you could enrich the topic/subject with your own experiences.
For some years ( in this forum ) and time to time I posted that the MM type cartridge quality sound is better than we know or that we think and like four months ago I start a thread about: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&5#Rauliruegas where we analyse some MM type cartridges.
Well, in the last 10-12 months I buy something like 30+ different MM type phono cartridges ( you can read in my virtual system which ones. ) and I’m still doing it. The purpose of this fact ( “ buy it “ ) is for one way to confirm or not if really those MM type cartridges are good for us ( music lovers ) and at the same time learn about MM vs MC cartridges, as a fact I learn many things other than MM/MC cartridge subject.
If we take a look to the Agon analog members at least 90% of them use ( only ) MC phono cartridges, if we take a look to the “ professional reviewers “ ( TAS, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, etc, etc, ) 95% ( at least ) of them use only MC cartridges ( well I know that for example: REG and NG of TAS and RJR of Stereophile use only MM type cartridges!!!!!!!! ) , if we take a look to the phono cartridge manufacturers more than 90% of them build/design for MC cartridges and if you speak with audio dealers almost all will tell you that the MC cartridges is the way to go.
So, who are wrong/right, the few ( like me ) that speak that the MM type is a very good alternative or the “ whole “ cartridge industry that think and support the MC cartridge only valid alternative?
IMHO I think that both groups are not totally wrong/right and that the subject is not who is wrong/right but that the subject is : KNOW-HOW or NON KNOW-HOW about.
Many years ago when I was introduced to the “ high end “ the cartridges were almost MM type ones: Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Empire, etc, etc. In those time I remember that one dealer told me that if I really want to be nearest to the music I have to buy the Empire 4000 D ( they say for 4-channel reproduction as well. ) and this was truly my first encounter with a “ high end cartridge “, I buy the 4000D I for 70.00 dls ( I can’t pay 150.00 for the D III. ), btw the specs of these Empire cartridges were impressive even today, look: frequency response: 5-50,000Hz, channel separation: 35db, tracking force range: 0.25grs to 1.25grs!!!!!!!!, just impressive, but there are some cartridges which frequency response goes to 100,000Hz!!!!!!!!!!
I start to learn about and I follow to buying other MM type cartridges ( in those times I never imagine nothing about MC cartridges: I don’t imagine of its existence!!!. ) like AKG, Micro Acoustics, ADC, B&O, Audio Technica, Sonus, etc, etc.
Years latter the same dealer told me about the MC marvelous cartridges and he introduce me to the Denon-103 following with the 103-D and the Fulton High performance, so I start to buy and hear MC cartridges. I start to read audio magazines about either cartridge type: MM and Mc ones.
I have to make changes in my audio system ( because of the low output of the MC cartridges and because I was learning how to improve the performance of my audio system ) and I follow what the reviewers/audio dealers “ speak “ about, I was un-experienced !!!!!!!, I was learning ( well I’m yet. ).
I can tell you many good/bad histories about but I don’t want that the thread was/is boring for you, so please let me tell you what I learn and where I’m standing today about:
over the years I invested thousands of dollars on several top “ high end “ MC cartridges, from the Sumiko Celebration passing for Lyras, Koetsu, Van denHul, to Allaerts ones ( just name it and I can tell that I own or owned. ), what I already invest on MC cartridges represent almost 70-80% price of my audio system.
Suddenly I stop buying MC cartridges and decide to start again with some of the MM type cartridges that I already own and what I heard motivate me to start the search for more of those “ hidden jewels “ that are ( here and now ) the MM phono cartridges and learn why are so good and how to obtain its best quality sound reproduction ( as a fact I learn many things other than MM cartridge about. ).
I don’t start this “ finding “ like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges. The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.
First than all I try to identify and understand the most important characteristics ( and what they “ means “. ) of the MM type cartridges ( something that in part I already have it because our phonolinepreamp design needs. ) and its differences with the MC ones.
Well, first than all is that are high output cartridges, very high compliance ones ( 50cu is not rare. ), low or very low tracking force ones, likes 47kOhms and up, susceptible to some capacitance changes, user stylus replacement, sometimes we can use a different replacement stylus making an improvement with out the necessity to buy the next top model in the cartridge line , low and very low weight cartridges, almost all of them are build of plastic material with aluminum cantilever and with eliptical or “ old “ line contact stylus ( shibata ) ( here we don’t find: Jade/Coral/Titanium/etc, bodies or sophisticated build material cantilevers and sophisticated stylus shape. ), very very… what I say? Extremely low prices from 40.00 to 300.00 dls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, well one of my cartridges I buy it for 8.99 dls ( one month ago ): WOW!!!!!!, so any one of you can/could have/buy ten to twenty MM cartridges for the price of one of the MC cartridge you own today and the good notice is that is a chance that those 10-20 MM type cartridges even the quality performance of your MC cartridge or beat it.
Other characteristics is that the builders show how proud they were/are on its MM type cartridges design, almost all those cartridges comes with a first rate box, comes with charts/diagrams of its frequency response and cartridge channel separation ( where they tell us which test recording use it, with which VTF, at which temperature, etc, etc. ), comes with a very wide explanation of the why’s and how’s of its design and the usual explanation to mount the cartridge along with a very wide list of specifications ( that were the envy of any of today MC ones where sometimes we really don’t know nothing about. ), comes with a set of screws/nuts, comes with a stylus brush and even with stylus cleaning fluid!!!!!!!!!, my GOD. Well, there are cartridges like the Supex SM 100MK2 that comes with two different stylus!!!! One with spherical and one with elliptical/shibata shape and dear friends all those in the same low low price!!!!!!!!!!!
Almost all the cartridges I own you can find it through Ebay and Agon and through cartridge dealers and don’t worry if you loose/broke the stylus cartridge or you find the cartridge but with out stylus, you always can/could find the stylus replacement, no problem about there are some stylus and cartridge sources.
When I’m talking about MM type cartridges I’m refer to different types: moving magnet, moving iron, moving flux, electret, variable reluctance, induced magnet, etc, etc. ( here is not the place to explain the differences on all those MM type cartridges. Maybe on other future thread. ).
I made all my very long ( time consuming ) cartridge tests using four different TT’s: Acoustic Signature Analog One MK2, Micro Seiki RX-5000, Luxman PD 310 and Technics SP-10 MK2, I use only removable headshell S and J shape tonearms with 15mm on overhang, I use different material build/ shape design /weight headshells. I test each cartridge in at least three different tonearms and some times in 3-4 different headshells till I find the “ right “ match where the cartridge perform the best, no I’m not saying that I already finish or that I already find the “ perfect “ match: cartridge/headshell/tonearm but I think I’m near that ideal target.
Through my testing experience I learn/ confirm that trying to find the right tonearm/headshell for any cartridge is well worth the effort and more important that be changing the TT. When I switch from a TT to another different one the changes on the quality cartridge performance were/are minimal in comparison to a change in the tonearm/headshell, this fact was consistent with any of those cartridges including MC ones.
So after the Phonolinepreamplifier IMHO the tonearm/headshell match for any cartridge is the more important subject, it is so important and complex that in the same tonearm ( with the same headshell wires ) but with different headshell ( even when the headshell weight were the same ) shape or build material headshell the quality cartridge performance can/could be way different.
All those experiences told me that chances are that the cartridge that you own ( MC or MM ) is not performing at its best because chances are that the tonearm you own is not the best match for that cartridge!!!!!!, so imagine what do you can/could hear when your cartridge is or will be on the right tonearm???!!!!!!!!, IMHO there are ( till today ) no single ( any type at any price ) perfect universal tonearm. IMHO there is no “ the best tonearm “, what exist or could exist is a “ best tonearm match for “ that “ cartridge “, but that’s all. Of course that are “ lucky “ tonearms that are very good match for more than one cartridge but don’t for every single cartridge.
I posted several times that I’m not a tonearm collector, that I own all those tonearms to have alternatives for my cartridges and with removable headshells my 15 tonearms are really like 100+ tonearms : a very wide options/alternatives for almost any cartridge!!!!!!
You can find several of these MM type cartridges new brand or NOS like: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Technica, Astatic, B&O, Rega, Empire, Sonus Reson,Goldring,Clearaudio, Grado, Shelter, Garrot, etc. and all of them second hand in very good operational condition. As a fact I buy two and even three cartridges of the same model in some of the cartridges ( so right now I have some samples that I think I don’t use any more. ) to prevent that one of them arrive in non operational condition but I’m glad to say that all them arrive in very fine conditions. I buy one or two of the cartridges with no stylus or with the stylus out of work but I don’t have any trouble because I could find the stylus replacement on different sources and in some case the original new replacement.
All these buy/find cartridges was very time consuming and we have to have a lot of patience and a little lucky to obtain what we are looking for but I can asure you that is worth of it.
Ok, I think it is time to share my performance cartridge findings:
first we have to have a Phonolinepreamplifier with a very good MM phono stage ( at least at the same level that the MC stage. ). I’m lucky because my Phonolinepreamplifier has two independent phono stages, one for the MM and one for MC: both were designed for the specifics needs of each cartridge type, MM or MC that have different needs.
we need a decent TT and decent tonearm.
we have to load the MM cartridges not at 47K but at 100K ( at least 75K not less. ).
I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance.
I find too that using the manufacturer capacitance advise not always is for the better, till “ the end of the day “ I find that between 100-150pf ( total capacitance including cable capacitance. ) all the cartridges performs at its best.
I start to change the load impedance on MM cartridges like a synonymous that what many of us made with MC cartridges where we try with different load impedance values, latter I read on the Empire 4000 DIII that the precise load impedance must be 100kOhms and in a white paper of some Grace F9 tests the used impedance value was 100kOhms, the same that I read on other operational MM cartridge manual and my ears tell/told me that 100kOhms is “ the value “.
Before I go on I want to remember you that several of those MM type cartridges ( almost all ) were build more than 30+ years ago!!!!!!!! and today performs at the same top quality level than today MC/MM top quality cartridges!!!!!, any brand at any price and in some ways beat it.
I use 4-5 recordings that I know very well and that give me the right answers to know that any cartridge is performing at its best or near it. Many times what I heard through those recordings were fine: everything were on target however the music don’t come “ alive “ don’t “ tell me “ nothing, I was not feeling the emotion that the music can communicate. In those cartridge cases I have to try it in other tonearm and/or with a different headshell till the “ feelings comes “ and only when this was achieved I then was satisfied.
All the tests were made with a volume level ( SPL ) where the recording “ shines “ and comes alive like in a live event. Sometimes changing the volume level by 1-1.5 db fixed everything.
Of course that the people that in a regular manner attend to hear/heard live music it will be more easy to know when something is right or wrong.
Well, Raul go on!!: one characteristic on the MM cartridges set-up was that almost all them likes to ride with a positive ( little/small ) VTA only the Grace Ruby and F9E and Sonus Gold Blue likes a negative VTA , on the other hand with the Nagaoka MP 50 Super and the Ortofon’s I use a flat VTA.
Regarding the VTF I use the manufacturer advise and sometimes 0.1+grs. Of course that I made fine tuning through moderate changes in the Azymuth and for anti-skate I use between half/third VTF value.
I use different material build headshells: aluminum, composite aluminum, magnesium, composite magnesium, ceramic, wood and non magnetic stainless steel, these cartridges comes from Audio Technica, Denon, SAEC, Technics, Fidelity Research, Belldream, Grace, Nagaoka, Koetsu, Dynavector and Audiocraft. All of them but the wood made ( the wood does not likes to any cartridge. ) very good job . It is here where a cartridge could seems good or very good depending of the headshell where is mounted and the tonearm. Example, I have hard time with some of those cartridge like the Audio Technica AT 20SS where its performance was on the bright sound that sometimes was harsh till I find that the ceramic headshell was/is the right match now this cartridge perform beautiful, something similar happen with the Nagaoka ( Jeweltone in Japan ), Shelter , Grace, Garrot , AKG and B&O but when were mounted in the right headshell/tonearm all them performs great.
Other things that you have to know: I use two different cooper headshell wires, both very neutral and with similar “ sound “ and I use three different phono cables, all three very neutral too with some differences on the sound performance but nothing that “ makes the difference “ on the quality sound of any of my cartridges, either MM or MC, btw I know extremely well those phono cables: Analysis Plus, Harmonic Technologies and Kimber Kable ( all three the silver models. ), finally and don’t less important is that those phono cables were wired in balanced way to take advantage of my Phonolinepreamp fully balanced design.
What do you note the first time you put your MM cartridge on the record?, well a total absence of noise/hum or the like that you have through your MC cartridges ( and that is not a cartridge problem but a Phonolinepreamp problem due to the low output of the MC cartridges. ), a dead silent black ( beautiful ) soundstage where appear the MUSIC performance, this experience alone is worth it.
The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely “ easy “ with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I can’t explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard “ sounds/notes “ that you never before heard it and you even don’t know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!
IMHO I think that the MUSIC run so easily through a MM cartridge due ( between other facts ) to its very high compliance characteristic on almost any MM cartridge.
This very high compliance permit ( between other things like be less sensitive to out-center hole records. ) to these cartridges stay always in contact with the groove and never loose that groove contact not even on the grooves that were recorded at very high velocity, something that a low/medium cartridge compliance can’t achieve, due to this low/medium compliance characteristic the MC cartridges loose ( time to time and depending of the recorded velocity ) groove contact ( minute extremely minute loose contact, but exist. ) and the quality sound performance suffer about and we can hear it, the same pass with the MC cartridges when are playing the inner grooves on a record instead the very high compliance MM cartridges because has better tracking drive perform better than the MC ones at inner record grooves and here too we can hear it.
Btw, some Agoners ask very worried ( on more than one Agon thread ) that its cartridge can’t track ( clean ) the cannons on the 1812 Telarc recording and usually the answers that different people posted were something like this: “””” don’t worry about other than that Telarc recording no other commercial recording comes recorded at that so high velocity, if you don’t have trouble with other of your LP’s then stay calm. “””””
Well, this standard answer have some “ sense “ but the people ( like me ) that already has/have the experience to hear/heard a MM or MC ( like the Ortofon MC 2000 or the Denon DS1, high compliance Mc cartridges. ) cartridge that pass easily the 1812 Telarc test can tell us that those cartridges make a huge difference in the quality sound reproduction of any “ normal “ recording, so it is more important that what we think to have a better cartridge tracking groove drive!!!!
There are many facts around the MM cartridge subject but till we try it in the right set-up it will be ( for some people ) difficult to understand “ those beauties “. Something that I admire on the MM cartridges is how ( almost all of them ) they handle the frequency extremes: the low bass with the right pitch/heft/tight/vivid with no colorations of the kind “ organic !!” that many non know-how people speak about, the highs neutral/open/transparent/airy believable like the live music, these frequency extremes handle make that the MUSIC flow in our minds to wake up our feelings/emotions that at “ the end of the day “ is all what a music lover is looking for. These not means that these cartridges don’t shine on the midrange because they do too and they have very good soundstage but here is more system/room dependent.
Well we have a very good alternative on the ( very low price ) MM type cartridges to achieve that music target and I’m not saying that you change your MC cartridge for a MM one: NO, what I’m trying to tell you is that it is worth to have ( as many you can buy/find ) the MM type cartridges along your MC ones
I want to tell you that I can live happy with any of those MM cartridges and I’m not saying with this that all of them perform at the same quality level NO!! what I’m saying is that all of them are very good performers, all of them approach you nearest to the music.
If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard “ call “ an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:
Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.
There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III.
The other ones are very good too but less refined ones. I try too ( owned or borrowed for a friend ) the Shure IV and VMR, Music maker 2-3 and Clearaudio Virtuoso/Maestro, from these I could recommended only the Clearaudios the Shure’s and Music Maker are almost mediocre ones performers. I forgot I try to the B&O Soundsmith versions, well this cartridges are good but are different from the original B&O ( that I prefer. ) due that the Sounsmith ones use ruby cantilevers instead the original B&O sapphire ones that for what I tested sounds more natural and less hi-fi like the ruby ones.
What I learn other that the importance on the quality sound reproduction through MM type cartridges?, well that unfortunately the advance in the design looking for a better quality cartridge performers advance almost nothing either on MM and MC cartridges.
Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them easily.
Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment, but this is only my HO.
I know that there are many things that I forgot and many other things that we have to think about but what you can read here is IMHO a good point to start.
I have a few broken MM cartridges and i wonder is it worth to rebuild them, both needs a new cantilevers. In stock condition they are superb cartridges, i still have 3 working samples in excellent condition. But i don’t know what to do with broken samples :(
Talking about AT-ML150 with rare ATN170ML replacement stylus (broken cantilever) and mega rare AT-ML180 with genuine ANT180ML replacement stylus (broken cantilever). Only a little part of the original cantilever left inside (about 2-3mil). The original cantilever is Hollow Gold Plated Boron and the original stylus tip mass is extremely low (0,08mm for AT-ML180 // 0,1mm for AT-ML170 ).
Has anyone tried to rebuild those cartridges? I think it must be Boron cantilever and Van Den Hul tip of the lowest mass to be close to the original.
But no one has made any of these hollow boron cantilevers since the 80's.
@nandric You’re right, it’s good idea to became a retipper in the end of the day. A.J. Van Den Hul turning 80 this year! Just checked this interview with him. My Dutch instagram friend told me the price is 500 euro to rebuild with Van Den Hul throught his dealer. It is only make sense if the final product can surpass the original.
There is indeed a tiny screw covered by a drop of white glue or paint on the inner side of the ATN170ML stylus replacement assembly.
I remember someone told me the Audio-Technica in Japan can do the job, not sure if they can do anything with this particual model (discontinued long time ago), but they must provide re-tipping service for their clients? So maybe rebuild with original specs (or close to the original) is possible.
@halcro I just want to tip my hat to all the suggestions in this thread. I picked up a NOS Victor Z1 and have it mounted on a 4point. In a word: incredible. A truly eye opening experience. AND that's without the NEO-SAS stylus that is yet to arrive. As is it's easily doing more for me than the many $2-4000 MC cartridges I've used on the same setup. I'm not prepared to draw any definitive conclusions about vintage MM vs new MC cartridges, but in this case, for a few hundred bucks, it's a little bit sickening to think of how much I've spent for so much less music. So thank you all!
Glad you have seen the light JT, and I'm so pleased you find the Victor Z1 to your liking...😎 When the Neo-SAS arrives, please update us with your thoughts on the comparison.... Your's is valuable feedback for all the 'lurkers' of this Thread.
Friends, The Clearaudio Charisma MM, better than Virtuoso, Maestro? Diamond encrusted Boron Cantelever is the same as Goldfinger. Leave it to Clearaudio to outdo themselves.
@tubed1 if i remember correct the ClearAudio use Audio-Technica generator in their expensive cartridges. It's been said here earlier.
As for the Boron cantilevers i doubt they are hollow pipe, most likely rod. So in terms of cantilevers those modern (all of them) are inferior to the vintage with hollow pipe boron cantilevers and ultra low mass tip. Correct me if i'm wrong.
@nandric I can illustrate your words easily. This is a picture of my broken AT-ML170 / ATN170ML stylus recplacement. The rest of the gold plated hollow pipe material is the actual cantilever, not the collar of the cantilever, but the cantilever itself. Here is another picture of the working original cantilever. BTW i got very quick reply from Expert Stylus regarding this AT-ML170 cartridge. I was surpriced that Expert Stylus have 48 years experience in manufacturing components, including a range of cantilevers and diamonds (so maybe Don was right about Stereohedron made by Expert Stylus) ! They got over 2500 cartridges serviced every year! It really isn’t a matter of removing a cantilever and fitting a new one. The mass of the cantilever and diamond must be taken into consideration as otherwise the whole dynamics of the cartridge will be impaired. Every cartridge made is built with components of a mass ensuring optimal results, and unless those attempting repair work have the background and laboratory facilities to ensure this, then they should not be considered. The Expert Stylus company manufacture cantilevers in aluminium, boron and sapphire. Their Paratrace profile diamond is possibly the most advanced diamond produced today. This mega rare Audio-Technica AT-ML170 from the 80’s can be refurbished anytime by Expert Stylus in UK for about £290 in 3/4 weeks from receipt of confirmation. It’s quick compared to others. The exchange rate of £ to € is so low at the moment, i think this is the best option. But i will not do that, i decided to sell this cartridge :)
P.S. I saw the alluminum tube ("joint pipe" you are talking about) used as a collar for solid boron rod cantilevers used by Axel, it was Nagaoka made cantilevers with glued stylus tip (he told me once). So when Axel refurbished my Technics 100c mk3, many years ago, he actually installed aluminum collar with boron rod cantilever (glued to that joint pipe). On the original Technics Boron Hollow Pipe Cantilever there is no collar (or joint pipe). I don’t have a cpiture of the EPC 100c mk3, but i do have a picture of the EPC-205c mk4 refurbished by Axel, glued stylus tip and the alluminum collar around the new nagaoka Boron Rod cantilever is visible here.
The old method is definitely better, but modern designers must glue the stylus tip, because the cantilever is solid rod, not the hollow pipe. I hadrly imagine someone can make a tiny hole in the solid rod cantilever, but it was possible with superior vintage hollow pipe cantilevers in the 70s/80s.
Right, cantilevers of the AT-ML180 and AT-ML170 are Gold Plated Boron, the AT-ML150 is Beryllium, but the AT-ML140 is alluminum. I’ve never seen AT-ML160 and this number is missing the the catalog, very rare model.
Generators of the AT-ML180 is way different from any other models, the rest are the same and only stylus replacement make difference in sound. But OFC and OCC versions of generators are slightly different in sound too.
I have two perfectly working AT-ML170 and one AT-ML180 now (my favorite cartridges).
You ATN160ML replacement stylus assembly can be "transparent" to my AT-ML170 without surgery, it is MM replacement, lol.
The problem is that replacement stylus for those models is impossible to find without cartridge, especially for the price that is lower than used cartridge+stylus! A man with stylus replacement and a man with cartridge generator can meet in the "ideal world", but in reality the generators are easy to find, but the working stylus replacements are impossible to find for this particular model. The plastic frame with working suspension designed for hollow pipe boron cantilever to fit the AT-ML170 is also not easy to find. So i decided to sell this combo to someone who can refurbish it with Expert Stylus, SoundSmith or any other service. Or for those who can do that with a donor stylus following your advice.
However, it's interesting case. What to do with vintage MM cartridge if the cantilever is broken. Refurbish it to try a hybrid or to sell it, or to keep looking for the original replacement.
Well, first the AT-ML180 is not compatible with any other styli in AT-ML series, because the generator of the AT-180 is different ellectrically from all others! For this TOTL cartridge stylus replacement must be ATN180, not the lower models. I’m fine with my working AT-ML180.
Ebay is evil, along with paypal they charge at least 16% fees from the sellers, but it’s vary (they even charge vat from their fee now at the end), depends from which country you got the payment etc. In my opinion this is extremely high fee for private sellers, also as the seller everyone should accept return for full refund including shipping both way if the buyer is not happy. It’s hard to imagine any rare items for cheap on ebay, because seller must count the loss (fees). I hate ebay for this reason, the uk audio mart allow us to set lower prices and listing is fee. I can not say any good about audiogon as they charge high listing fee for unsold items. As for the prices you have to check statistics, look for foxtan prices for example, they are much higher and he’s a cheater (see feedbacks), he sold me refurbished cartridges as the originals. Well, top MM cartridges are not cheap anymore, because they are great performers and people should face it. It is not a $100 price tag anymore (like it was 10-15 years ago), but for the best vintage carts it’s more like $350-750 and for some highly collectible rare NOS vintage MM carts it’s over $1000 typically. But i must admit that the best vintage MC are still twice as much in price! Just look at the used FR-7f or Denon S1 in the bay. Well still cheaper than new $4500 ZYX
I should add as argument by my single MM retip that to it make
no sense to retip an MM cart which cost (me) 100 euro for 250
euro.
When people retipping MC cartridges they do spend the same amount of money to buy broken one and then the same amount to get it retipped or refurbished. What’s the difference in logic? What about those guys who always refurbishing their cheap Dl-103?
Of course top and rare MM deserve refurbishing if the total amount is lower than the market price of the rare cartridge (which is normally over 700 for best models). In the beggining of this thread, many year ago, everyone was so enthusiastic about Axel’s retip or so called "refresh" of whatever cartridge (even those technics, remember). And replacement styli for rare models cost as much as the cartridge if they turns up for sale, but they never will. There are trade off with refurbishing, but some people love the result.
Today we have JICO SAS Sapphire at $260 and higher. But SoundSmith Ruby with Contact Line cost the same $250. And we have more options from Expert Stylus, Van Den Hull for higher price. Why do you think it must be applied for MC carts only if we have some great MMs ?
Thanks, i'm not a pro seller, but when i need funds for new finds i have to sell some stuff, i will try those Dutch and German sources. Paypal is ok, but i'm talking about ebay listing/sales fee they charge for sold items in the end of the month, i was shocked but they charge fee even from the shipping price! So this company sucks. The overall sales fee on ebay is 10%, but along with additional 5-6% paypal payment fee it's about 16% in total in my area at the moment. So ebay is ok for the buyer with paypal buyers protection, but for the sellers is not good with such a high fees. However, to make sure it sells the description must be very accutare to avoid buyer claim, i have to underrate my grading on ebay, so the buyer will get the item in slightly better condition than advertized (not the vise versa). The source i can recommend for averyone is UK Audio Mart or US Audio Mart (free listing), my ads there is under the same nickname as here.
Well, i want to get back the the MC vs. MM subject, but let's talk about HIGH OUTPUT MC.
Those carts does not require step-up/headamp devices and they are flexible with loading. Some of them works with MM phono stage at 47k. They can also works fine with MC (100ohm - 1000ohm) inputs, diffrerent loading is also possible.
I really like some of the Hight Output MC cartridges in my system. Dynavector DV-30A, Argent MC500H and 500HS just to name a few.
I do not see/hear disadvantages of the High Output (HOMC) compared to the Low Output (LOMC).
And my farovite HOMC are superior compared to many top MM cartridges.
Anybody else are experienced with some decent vintage HOMC carts? It would be nice to read opinions.
Chakster, If you want to debate the issue, I will take the opposing view. I have owned Sumiko Blue Point, Benz Glider (two versions), and Transfiguration Esprit. All in the HOMC category. I found none of these cartridges to be musically satisfying. They all sounded a bit "synthetic" or mechanical to me. As a result of my prior experience with HOMC, I will always choose the LO version, if an MC cartridge is made in LO and HO versions. In my hierarchy, LOMC, MM, and MI types will always supersede HOMC types. I am sure you would say that my problem is I have not heard the HOMCs that you prefer.
@nandric thanks for your compliments I am tube lover, but my phono stages are free of tubes In theory i’m aware of the advantages of the LOmc over the HOmc. when it comes to moving coil cartridges. In reality my favorite HOMC (particualy the low compliance Argent MC with sapphire cantilever) are as good as the LOMC to my ears, i hope your beloved FR-7f and Raul’s favorite MC2000 will show me the advantages of the LOMC over the HOMC. For those carts i just scored LUXMAN AD8000 SUT base with 8030 low impedance (3 ohm, 1:30 ), silver coil on toroidal core step up transformer. We will see if i can hear my two Ikeda’s (FR) carts even better soon.
But i’m more concerned about HOMC versus MM, i find my 3 HOMC very enjoyable compared to the best MMs (which i like too) @lewm
There must be very good HOMC design among the vintage cartridges, they were quite popular.
I read this forum since i registered in 2010, i'm curious to try my new Luxman 8020 sut with low impedance and very low output MC carts only, for the rest of the MC cartridges with slightly higher output i have headamp, and two different MC phono stages that can handle carts with 0,2mV with ease. But for the cartridges with output lover than 0,2mV (impedance of 1,5 - 3,5 Ohm) i would like to try Luxman AD800 base with 8020 sut. I hope you can google translate it, but the guy said: "I got the feeling that the sound of 8020 SUT makes famous M.A. COTTER MC transformer a little soft." I think you own Cotter trans, Nandrik? Yes, i'm aware about your Denon SUT all-rounder. This Luxman comes with 3 different plug-in toroidal silver SUTs, i have only one on mine (maybe i will find 2 others later if i ever need them).
Nandric, "Acerbic" means "No Serbs" or "Without Serbs", obviously. I am glad that I lined up with Dertonearm in thinking that possibly the MC2000 might benefit synergistically (means 1+1=3) from being matched with its dedicated SUT, the T2000. I'd like to try it (even though I do not need it) but the SUT is as hard to find as is the cartridge.
I think the genius of the MC2000 is its rather high compliance for an MC. If there is any way in which I think MM and MI cartridges outperform MCs consistently, it is with piano music. The MC2000 does very well with piano, compared to others, possibly owing to its compliance.
Dear @chakster : I owned a beauty item by Luxman and was the C 5000A. Champaigne color with wood top/below/sides wood, just a beautiful audio item.
Things are that the " baby " came with both SUT's: 8020 and 8030 that were connected at the rear plate and very easy to change it depending of the gain we need it. For what I remember was very good phonolinepreamp that unfortunatelly gone several years ago.
I can't say how it compares as a SUT against the Cotter MK2 one and is no surprise to me that " the guy " said is better than Cotter. Btw, Cotter SUT has more fame that true, is a good SUT ( almost all are. ) but nothing outstanding.
@lewm , the MC 2000 quality level performance is a result of the whole Ortofon care at designed it and its excecution and of course that its very high compliance is reflected in its excellent tracking abilities to pick up almost all the recorded information.
Now, in those old times Ortofon as many other LOMC proponents manufacturers and with their top models almost always manufactured too ( at the same time. ) the SUT to match the cartridge gain with very low noise. That's the way how FR or Audio Technica or Dynavector or Koetsu or Audio Note did it.
In the case of Ortofon the matched SUT was a necessity due to the cartridge so low output level that with out the rigth SUT the noise levels gone to high . One of the first Ortofon SUT's was for the MC 30 cartridge and then followed for the one for the MC 2000 but other that its high gain and that's silver wired has nothing special. We have to remember that LOMC cartridges are non sensitive to impedance loads. Yes, the best way to go with these kind of LOMC cartridges is through a well designed active high gain phonolinepreamp.
I'm not saying that we can't admire the MC 2000 through a good SUT but we are " losting " something " down there.
I find that I am now unable to get past page 1 of this thread, which is now about 254 pages long. Is anyone else having difficulty? This post is inserted in the box at the bottom of page 1. I don't know whether it will show up on p. 254 or p. 1. Thanks for any help, Audiogon.
Raul, Thank you for your response. I know for sure that you have heard the MC2000 "both ways". Therefore I take it seriously that you say the dedicated SUT for it is not a sine qua non. (Nandric will translate; he is a scholar and a lawyer.)
By the way, with all due respect to Syntax, I use the term "acerbic" to indicate his critical comments are generally brief and cut directly to his point with no ambiguity. For me, this is a compliment. I note that some synonyms for acerbic, listed on-line, suggest cruelty or meanness; that was not my intended meaning when I used the word "acerbic".
Dear @lewm : Yes, that SUT was a necessity in those old times ( not today. ) to have decent phono stage noise levels.
The MC 2000 with the rigth active high gain phonolinepreamp is very hard to beat even for today Ortofon designs. Its very low output impedes that the cartridge been owned by higher audiophiles that's why in a short time Ortofon designed the MC 2000 MK2 with higher output level. I owned too and just does not compare to the 2000, hands down.
Dear Nandric, I hope you know that my original definition of "acerbic" was only meant in good fun. I want all the Serbs I can get, especially based on what happened with the Croates (Croatians?) Also, there are some good looking female Serbs out there.
I never said I would buy a T2000 at any price; I said I was interested in how it would affect the sound of the MC2000 on the premise that maybe the two products were meant to be used together for best performance of the MC2000. Raul says no, and I believe him. So now I don't want to buy a T2000.
Now that I already bought the MC2000 from you, you can be honest: Do you think Axel's re-tip preserved the original sound of the MC2000? I am certainly not complaining; I like it. Just curious about the "before" vs the "after". I would even buy another cartridge from you.
Dear @lewm : """
Axel's re-tip preserved the original sound of the MC2000? """, no re-tipper but the original manufacturer can leave in original shape a cartridge so special like the MC 2000.
I owned 3 MC 2000, two originals and one re-tipped by van den Hul and this one sounds different even that this manufacturer has premium parts where a re-tipper just have not access to it.
The original stylus of MC2000 called Symmetrical Contact Line (CLC). The moving system which comprises diamond stylus, cantilever and armature, quite natually has great influence on the cartridge’s performance capability. And it is particularly important that the mass of the system is kept at an absolute minimum. The MeFF value of the ortofon MC2000 is 0,27 mg. Aminimum value. This was achieved simply by finding the optimal cantilever lenght (6,15 mm), and utilizing the correct materials for the moving system: an extremely light and stiff aluminum cantilever of conical shape, diminutive cross-shaped aluminum armature. The legs of the cross are hollow which has allowed for a mass reduction of 66% in relationto traditional armature design. High mechanical stiffness. In addition to the mass reduction - so important for the total equivalent stylus tip mass - the use of aluminum gave an additional benefit. It was possible to prevent irritating magnetic noise (backhausen effect) and occurs when a magnetizeable material changes its magnetic state. The Damping system ortofon’s patented WRD (Wide Range Damping). The system comprises two pieces of rubber separated by a tiny platinum disc. It has been possible to incorporate a finer suspension wire and soften rubber compounds for the bearings. There refinements have permitted a compliance of 20 um/mN - the highest value for an Ortofon MC cartridge. High compliance guarantees exceptional tracking ability at low frequencies (minimum 100 um, which is a unique value for a moving coil cartridge), while the low equivalent stylus tip mass ensures tracking ability at high frequencies that surpasses all other top cartridges.
Taking in count all that stated above, I’m glad that i have unused NOS MC2000 in stock condition with all documents.
Very interesting post, Chakster. Perhaps Nandric can tell us what Axel used to do with MC2000s. I certainly do not know, but your point (that re-tipping would probably change the cartridge) is well taken and one of which I am not unaware. (This latter is an English test for Nandric; two negatives make a positive.) If you did not notice, my MC2000 has been re-tipped by Axel under the auspices of Nandric. But you must listen to your MC2000; don't let it go to waste. If you want to sell it, let me know.
Chakster, by chance, I have been reading several works of literature that either take place in St Petersburg/Leningrad or refer to that city. One is "Ten Days that Shook the World", John Reed's report of the Bolshevik revolution, as he actually lived through it in Petrograd. Others are basically spy novels. I would very much like to visit your beautiful city.
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