Dear comrade indierohere (alias Knut), I assume that you are referring to Kansui on ''audio-markt.de''? On the same site you can find my Windfeld which is much better cart. You can even trade in your JVC X2. I want to keep my sample in virginal state. |
I haven't seen recent mention of the Signet TK 7SU cartridge. Has everyone moved on from this cart or is it still an oldie but goodie?
|
The TK-7SU is still rated highly chez moi but is very rare with its original Shibata stylus. Pipped by the TK-7LCa for supremacy in my collection...the 7SU gets little airtime unfortunately.
|
Thanks Halcro. Is the TK 7lca similar in weight and output to the 7SU or different? Thanks again
|
+1 on the TK-7LCa. I find it easy to believe that cartridge kicked all others to the curb, halcro. I still like to hear my 4000D/III and last-gen Micro Acoustics 3002 carts, but the TK-7LCa is king of my non-MC collection as well.
Dave
|
Hi Steverino, According to Vinyl Engine....the weight of the TK-7LCa is 6.5Gm whilst the TK-7SU is 6.8Gm. The Output of the 7LCa is 5mV whilst that of the 7SU is only 2.7mV. The 7LCa has a nude Line Contact stylus on a beryllium cantilever whilst the 7SU has a nude sq-shank miniaturized Shibata on a micro-mass tapered tube (assuming aluminium).... Do you actually have a TK-7SU or are you looking...? |
Hi Halcro. how is the signet TK-7Lca different from the audio technica of the same generation? Is the body the same as an AT120ea/AT150ea for example? There is not a lot of information about them over on vinylengine. But I could determine that they are part of the square-peg AT120/150 generation and not the round-peg AT15 generation.
|
The Signets are meant as the exclusive top of the AT kinds. All should be ''composed'' from seleceted parts by sellected employee. This may be the case (?)for versions till nr. 7 but not for the lower versions . There are btw the ''old versions'' with different bodies from the later versions. I own the 10 ML and 9CL which have , say, small bodies. The other have similar bodies but differe qua cantilevers, styli and output. I myself don't believe that any Signet is better than AT 180/170. |
The Signet and Precept are just an export brands of the Audio-Technica, those cartridges are not for sale in Japan, but normally sells in the USA and Europe, but it does not make them better than Japanese Audio-Technica top models! The AT was an OEM company for dosen of other brands too. Their own top MM carts are the Audio-Technica AT-ML170 / AT-ML180 (OCC and OFC versions). At the state of the art MicroLine stylus of the AT-ML 170 / AT-ML180 looks like this under microscope. Those cartridges are hard to beat! |
Dear @steverino @jessica_severin: Audio Technica was a not so small corporation where Signet was one of its independent divisions.
Over the years AT was developed new MM/LOMC cartridges, tonearms, microphones, headphones, analog and digital acccesories and many other audio items inclusive TT, LP records, analog test items, etc., etc.designs.
For many years nothing can touched the 20SS ( in the MM " land ". ) and even today very hard to beat. A new generation of MM cartridges appeared when appeared the OCC ( magical wire " and then the AT ML180 with different stylus shape to the Shibata 20SS.
As @chakster I was secure that the 180 was the best of the best in AT history ( I had the same enthusiasm have chakster but over time things " change " and I understand everything in better way with a better audio system quality performance levels. ) but from some time now ceratinly it's not that way not only that it can't outperform the 20SS ( it's almost at the same level. ) and the problem with the 170/180 ML is that ceramic top plate in the cartridge body that unfortunatelly is way resonant. I respect the chakster opinion but I'm in disagreement in this specific regards.
In it's never end research for better cartridge performers AT arrived to the AT24/25 ( 24 a stand alone version and the 25 with integrated headshell. ) that is a cartridge to own and to listen it.
The AT 24 comes with a totally different cartridge body as what was been " normal " for AT but not only that but the cantilever/stylus assembly was made it in metal and screwed in the cartridge body where this alone characteristics was a real huge improvement for quality cartridge performance over the normal cartridge cantilever/stylus plastic assemblies everywhere.
The Signet division started to make the same with those models all of you name it and where the real " deal " is the TK10ML MK2, this one and the AT 24 has very similar designs.
It's a good cartridge the TK7Lc? yes it's but exist the 9 and the 10 and the 10MK2 that are superior designs and as I said the AT 24.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
@rauliruegas ... not only that it can't outperform the 20SS ( it's almost at the same level. )
Very interesting, do you know AT20SL (not SLa) ? |
" The problem with the 170/180 ML is that ceramic top plate in the cartridge body that unfortunatelly is way resonant."
Can you tell what kind of headshell fits best that ceramic top plate, is there a certain material that could decrease resonants.
Btw, I once had an AT20SLa but it suffered from annoying sibilance so I lost interest for AT20SS as well, although 20SLa with SS stylus would have been worth to try...
|
Regards, Chakster: You wrote: "The Signet and Precept are just an export brands of the Audio-Technica, those cartridges are not for sale in Japan, but normally sells in the USA and Europe, but it does not make them better than Japanese Audio-Technica top models!" Signet cartridges were hand assembled in Stow, Ohio. Coils hand wound and then the assembly bench tested to exacting specs.
The AT 22/23/24 and 25 are of Japanese origin. The AT22 and AT24 were of traditional 1/2" mount bodies, the AT23 and 25 engines were mounted into an integral headshell. The ATN22 and 24 styli were of a slightly greater length and consequently greater mass than the ATN23 and 25 "miniature" styli, all were elliptical styli mounted to a beryllium cantilever. This was inserted into an aluminum monoblock which was then installed with a screw to the cartridge body. The Signet TK-9 and TK-10 shared the same monoblock stylus assembly design, styli are interchangeable with the AT22 - 25 cartridges. These are well regarded cartridges. There has been some lively discussion in respect to resonance and alignment factors with the AT23/25 integral headshell. Signet TK1ea through TK7lca were contemporary with the above mentioned cartridges. The TK1Ea has a plastic body and seems overly susceptible to resonance. Although they were equipped with laminated rather than toroidal core generators, all were finished to the highest standards. Cantilever assemblies for these cartridges have been considered to be of a higher quality compared to the typical AT offerings. I once ran a very informal assessment of the serialized production for the TK7ea and 7lca. With the limited information available it appeared there were six of these bodies assembled in a month's time. The TK7Lca offers a richly textured midrange, a nicely rendered bass quick to rise and with no immediately discernible overshoot. The HF's are slightly recessed but not lacking in extension, as seems typical of a LC stylus. The cartridge is very listenable. The TK7-Lca avoids (IMHO) inducement of listener fatigue and does well on a Yamamoto HS-1 ebony headshell. For those seeking a slightly warmer performance the Japanese oak Ortofon LH8000 might be considered. The ATN155lc as replacement stylus is practicably indistinguishable from the OEM. The P-mount equivalent ATN-152 is still available http://www.ebay.com/itm/AUDIO-TECHNICA-ATN-152LP-Replacement-Original-Stylus-JAPAN-New-in-Box-/26314..., As to the ATN-155lc, good luck finding a NIB example. Although the TK10ml was offered beyond 1989, Signet discontinued production of the venerable "TK" series somewhere in that time frame. They were replaced with the MR (Maximum Resolution) and the AM (Analog Master) series. The AM cartridges were offered as the successor of the TK9/10. Styli for the MR/AM carts started with a 4 x 7 bonded elliptical. TOTL included LC or ML styli fixed to beryllium, ML cantilevers for either the MR or AM cartridges were gold sputtered. Other than the entry-level models, styli are nude mounted, grain oriented and of jewel quality. The MR bodies were of the typical AT alloy frame. The AM generators were attached to a rectangular mounting block in the same manner as were the TK9-10 cartridges. Other than a lower inductance for the AM10, all specs for the remainder of the range were the same. Due to this decrease in mass damping, both the TK9/10 or the AM cartridges are greatly influenced by headshell build, more so than any cartridge I'm familiar with, the possible exception being the somewhat flimsy Acutex LPM cartridges. With either the Signet AM or Acutex LPM every setup factor has a detectable influence. Although cantilevers can be transplanted to/from earlier designs, there is no stylus assembly interchangeability with cartridges lacking the "e" in their designation. If considering a cantilever transplant, care should be taken in determining correct SRA. The Ohio Signet assembly facility was closed late in 1992 and sold to a warehousing company in 1993. I corresponded with a Signet representative some while ago. Benches, assembly jigs, microscopes, electronic gear as well as all finished components in inventory were piled in dumpsters and sold for scrap. Peace, |
Regards, Harold-not the -barrel:
First, a correction: Next to last paragraph, post above, the distinction between the two generations of Signets is the suffix "a", not the "e" (elliptical).
Harald, the 20SS (SS= Super Shibata) is, I believe, the only AT15 or 20 to be provided with a beryllium cantilever. This, as with the miss-type above, is subject to correction.
Peace,
|
A great honor and relief to hear from you after such a long absence timeltel.
Hope you are doing well my friend.
Dave |
Regards, dlcochrum:
Thanks, Dave. I've been following the thread so not precisely MIA, you guys have been offering some interesting and informative discussions.
Peace, |
thank you everyone ( @nandric @chakster @rauliruegas @timeltel ) your cumulative knowledge is amazing.
In my 6months of watching yahoo auctions I don't think I've yet to see a Signet appear (re-imported back into Japan). I guess the best place to find Signet would be ebay. But I'll start watching for AT22/23/24/25 One more question. I noticed that lpgear still has a some NOS ATN155lc stylus available. But the AT155lc bodies are rare to find in Japan. Which other AT bodies would be appropriate for this stylus?
|
Let me join Dave in welcoming you back Professor (Timeltel)....👏 I thought that, if deep discussion on Signet cartridges was not enough to stir your keyboard.....car racing had won you over forever...😁
It was YOU who tutored me, and introduced me to the 'secret' world of Signets....and for that, I am forever in your debt...
Regards Henry PS Time to try a Yamamoto Carbon Fiber headshell. I find it even better than the HS-1 Ebony or the LH8000 (which are both superb).
|
Jessica, I think the Professor was advising that the ATN155Lc stylus fits exactly into the Signet TK-7LCa (or any TK-Ea series cartridge) and was near enough to the original Line Contact on Beryllium supplied with the 7LCa. I myself stockpiled six of the 155Lc styli at one time, fearing for the future....👅
Despite what you may see on lpgear's website.....I think you will find that 155Lc styli have been unobtainium for several years 😢
|
Thanks halcro and the other members referenced by jessica for your kind response and detailed information. I searched repeatedly for the 7lca specs but couldn't come up with them for some reason although the other models were found easily enough. That is an amazing difference in output from 2.7 to 5 mv. Does anyone know why the massive jump? I guess by your opinion it didn't hurt sonics like one might expect.
No I don't have the 7SU but was looking and saw a few with reduced priced although still pricey. That's why I was curious if they had fallen from favor. Thanks again to everyone.
|
Regards, Jessica/Steverino (Hi, Henry):
It appears a certain Aussie has cornered the market for the now unobtainable ATN-155lc stylus. The one referenced above is the identical LC stylus/beryllium cantilever assembly but configured for a P-mount cartridge. It lacks the built-in stylus protector and will consequently be of lower mass. Compliance should be tuned for 1.25 gram VTF, as this is the upper end of recommended VTF for the ATN-155LC this should not be a problem. The asking price is as reasonable as any offered in a number of years past. (Hint: if Raul were to suggest it, available stock would evaporate quickly.)
The AT-7V (Japan only but sometimes exported to the US) is spec and build-wise comparable to the TK7Lca and is a good chassis for exploring the range of compatible AT family styli.
Steverino: Response limits are effected when a state of electromotive force exists. A force at either end of the stylus affects cantilever motion, Lenz's Law states that: "the direction of an induced emf is such that it will always oppose the change that is causing it".
In dealing with increasingly higher output cartridges, an electromagnetically induced current will proportionately OPPOSE the motion or change which started the induced current. Due to increased magnetic attraction, leading and trailing transients as well as dynamic sweep suffer. Compliance/mechanical damping, effective tip mass, cantilever length, cross-section diameter, length and rigidity are factors to be taken into consideration.
Effectively, influences on wiggle at the stylus end are introduced by magnetic forces at work at the generator end. And vice-versa. As the mass of magnets diminishes inertia lessens, or as the number of windings is decreased, resistance is lessened. In either instance, lower output is the outcome.
Lewm or MIA forum contributor Neobop can explain this better than I.
Peace,
|
@rauliruegas
the problem with the 170/180 ML is that ceramic top plate in the cartridge body that unfortunatelly is way resonant.
I don't think so. Let me quote Audio-Technica's description from the original manual for the AT-ML170 cartridge: "To further increase the accuracy of the AT-ML170’s moving system, Audio-Technica engineers have ensured against unwanted parasitic vibration with an anti-resonance ceramic mounting base." For Audio-Technica engineers this is ANTI-RESONANCE CERAMIC BASE ! |
Well this may look curious but thanks to ill informed chakster we got 3 lectures from our Professor for free. ''May look as such'' because one get much more reactions when one make some error than in case of correct informaation. A ''certain Aussie'' rewarded timeltel with the title ''Professor'' and that is how we address his greatness since. I was always confused by the AT nomenclature while the fact that our Professor try to explain the situation in the past my memory was not capable to handle all the information. No way to compete with an Professor. I own 7 of those Signets all complete with the included user manuals which I have ''studied'' all but am still confused. The stories in the manuals never mentioned Ohio not to mention Stow. Who would think that Americans can produce such carts? The story was that an separate division was established (in Japan of course) were their best technicians ''composed'' each Signet from pre-sellected and measured parts. That is why I thought that Signets are ''the top'' of AT cartridges while chakster wanted to correct this ''valuation'' and put his own instead. But you know he is still an novice and need to learn more. However his ''learning curve'' is very promissing. |
Timeltel just proved what i said: if the Signet was made in Ohio, that’s the reason why those sub-brands (Precept and Signet) are not for sale in Japan, never been officially distributed in Japan, because the Audio-Technica made their own product placement in Japan. If there was a factory in the USA (like Timeltel wrote) i’m pretty sure it was controlled by the Audio-Technica USA and those sub-brands made for expansion on the US market. It’s not so important was it a Japanese cartridge for US market only, or Japanese cartridge made in the USA using AT parts and know-how to sell the product only in USA and Europe. It’s a good business model to have a factory in the USA to sell stuff in the USA under special brand (Signet). The Audio-Technica is a giant of the industry, but the Signet/Perecept is just a parent brand. All about marketing.
Now tell me why the sub-brand must be better than the giant company’s top models made for extremely high demand Japanese market and distributed worldwide? To be honest i just don’t care what is better, pretty sure they are all good, i just would like to add a bit of common sence.
Without Japanese know-how it would be impossible to make high-end cartridges in the 70s/80s era. Most of the American cartridges were made in Japan, even if the brand registered in the USA like my own belowed virtually unknown Argent MC for example. |
chaksterWithout Japanese know-how it would be impossible to make high-end cartridges in the 70s/80s era That would be news to companies such as Shure Bros and Grado, who manufacture in the US, and other companies such as AKG, which manufactures in Austria. |
I found this post over on the vinylengine forums by Manfred/lini. https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=90612
Re: Audio-technica AT120Eaby lini » 19 Oct 2016 18:48 Alan: It belongs to a special line of AT120 family members, the AT120Ea/130Ea/140Ea/150Ea, which afaik wasn't offered in Europe or the US. The body as such is compatible to any other AT120/102P family needle (also including the ATN-5V/7V/9V and some more). Unlike most other AT120/102P family models all the AT1x0Ea bodies feature the lower inductance generator version with 350 instead of 490 mH, though.
according to lini, the AT7v is the same body structure as the AT120-AT150 family. So I am guessing that if the ANT155lc stylus fits on the signet and AT7v then it should work on any of the AT120 family. I'm just referring to physical compatibility of stylus and bodies, not equivalence of sound. So it seems that the signets, AT7v and AT120-150 family might all have compatible/interchangeable stylus. Is this true? I will keep an eye out for an AT7v though since I think these are reasonably common here. Thank you again Professor |
Dear chakster, we again disagree in our valuation. As answer to your post our Professor first quoted your statement and then wrote an exteded explication of the ''real state of afairs'' with Signets. I don't think that his intention was to ''prove'' your satements or rather your conjectures about Signets. However I am more familiar with Austrian AKG and can inform you that they closed their cart production to avoid liability fort they carts which all have had worthless suspension . They even destroyed all their stocks with carts and parts. So much about your assumptions about superiority of Austrian manufacturing capabability. |
@cleeds That would be news to companies such as Shure Bros and Grado, who manufacture in the US, and other companies such as AKG, which manufactures in Austria. You can add ADC and Sonus, Ortofon etc..., but do you really understand who supplied parts such as diamonds, cantilevers etc to them back in the days and to all models re-tippers and manufacturers today? Think about it. Japanese know-how is hard to deny or ignore in high-tech industry, especially in cartridge manufacturing.
|
Nandric, i knew about AKG and my memory is very good. I think your answer addressed to Cleeds, not to me.
|
Sorry chakster, My remarks about AKG are indeed addressed to Cleeds whom I somehow confused with you (grin). However my mistake about AKG and Cleeds does not apply for the Signets about which we had our dispute .
|
chakster, "You can add ADC and Sonus, Ortofon etc." Yes, except for Ortofon which is not a US company. But also add more major manufacturers such as Stanton, Pickering, and Empire which were American based. What source for information do you have that those companies obtained styli and cantilevers from Japan during the '70s and '80s?
No doubt that smaller companies who offered a variety of audio components, or were simply importers, sourced their cartridges from Japan or Europe during that era. But I doubt the listed American companies who were established and well known as cartridge manufacturers sourced from over seas at that time.
|
@pryso Namiki Jewel in Japan is the manufacturer of MicroRidge diamonds related to Shure. I can not speak for cartridge manufacturers in Europe, but another comapny is Ogura (Japan). The biggest European cartridge manufacturer is Ortofon, i don’t know any other big European manufacturer of phono cartridges. You’re underrate the impact of the Japanese Jewel manufacturers on Cartridge manufacturers worldwide.
The Grado family business is a small business, i have posted a video here about them long time ago. They sells more headphones than cartridges. |
chakster the subject was cartridges in the '70s/'80s, not today. Grado for example didn't sell more headphones at that time. And they may have been a small company (still are) but they were considered a major cartridge manufacturer.
Also Decca, B&O, and Goldring are examples of other significant European cartridge manufacturers during that time.
Anyway, enough on this, back to today. ;^)
|
Regards, chakster/Jessica:
You wrote: "Without Japanese know-how it would be impossible to make high-end cartridges in the 70s/80s era. Most of the American cartridges were made in Japan, even if the brand registered in the USA---"
Thanks for your considerate comments. The long retired Signet Rep. I spoke with (telephone) stated simply that parts were received from AT; tested, assembled and shipped from the Stow Ohio (ATUSA) facility.
An examination of ANY Signet stylus assembly will reveal "Japan" as the source. It is unlikely the Stow facility (considering the complexity of equipment and considerations of redundancy in production) ever manufactured stylus assemblies or complete cartridges. There is no cause for disagreement with any of your comments.
Jessica:
Search "Stereoneedles.com". The site offers a useful grouping of cross-compatible styli. It might be mentioned, there may be difficulties with overseas orders?
Just a FYI:
Specs from a brochure accompanying a TK7Lca: FResponse: 5 - 35,000 Hz. Ch. balance: 0.5 dB. Ch seperation: 33 dB min. Output: 5.0 mV. VTA: 20* Cart. inductance: 58 mH ( ! ) DC resistance: 580 Ohms
|
Dear @harold-not-the-barrel @chakster : The AT 20SS is almost the same AT20SLa, difference is that the 20SS is hand selected and its quality level performance is a better one. Btw, in AT line dos not exist that super shibata stylus but just Shibata.
"""
For Audio-Technica engineers this is ANTI-RESONANCE CERAMIC BASE ! """
Years ago I was totally convinced that ceramic was a great material for cartridges, tonearms and headshells . As a fact I mounted my 20SS in the SAEC ceramic headshell and I was really exited by this combination till over the time I learned was not in that way. I mounted too the 170/180 in that ceramic headshells thinking will be a good match but it was not.
Maybe you can remember that Graham puts its money on ceramic material for its arm wands and disappeared in a short time. ceramic is " attractive " as material but nothing more than that. The only cartridge I know where ceramic makes almost no harm to the audio signal is the Ortofon designs where all cartridge body came from ceramic in a very special body shape that contributes to leave the resonances almost out of the " equation ". Unfortunatelly that does not happens with the 170/180.
In the other side @timeltel : In those old times Audio Technica had 5 big facilities out side Japan: one in USA, two in Germany ( Dusseldorf/Frankfurt ), one in England and one in México.
In all its facilites the name was: Audio Technica and in the case of USA was inside those AT facilities where was the Signet Division and Precept but all cartridges were made in Japan.
In those out side Japan facilities AT manufactured very specific products of is very wide catalogue. Example here in México ( that was the only country/place where the name was not AT but: Autec Mexico. ) they started to manufacturer microphones where the 95% of the production was for export and same way of work in the other countries with its different builded products.
Even in USA they ( in different times. ) where installed in two different places: Fairlawn AND sTOW IN oHIO.
Why I'm so sure about, well and I think that in this thread ( I can't remember where. ) I posted that here in México ( the only facility where happened. ) Audio Technica started its business/production not alone but in a join venture with a partner Mr. Guajardo that by huge coincidence I knew for other matters and one time I want it to say Hola! was when he told me his new enterprise joining AT and was Mr. Guajardo the gentleman that gave me the whole support to have access to all AT/Signet/Telarc catalogue. I was in contact with him for at least one time each week for years, was in those AT facilities where I knew top Japanese Directors that came time to time to suvervise the business/production.
I really had the opportunity to know AT because of that because in those times no single AT cartridge was on sale in México and not only from AT but for other manufacturers.
Btw, TK9 uses berylium cantilever where the TK10 came with Boron and MK2 with the " new " AT Micro-Line stylus shape against the LC one.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R.
|
What about Benz which is a real factory producing all cartridge parts except cantievers and styli. Van den Hul get his parts from Benz. I am not sure if Gyger still produces styli but Allaerts still uses them. Then the British Expert stylus does produce ''Paratrace'' styli similar to micro ridge. I assume that they also produce Replicant stylus for Ortofon. However all European producers are ''old masters'' like Ikeda, Takeda , Van den Hul, Lukatchek (Benz), etc. There is technology in theoretical sense but the practical human capability and knowledge are lost in the 80is. This explains why back then better cantilevers are produced. |
Thanks for the detailed info, Raul Now it’s easier to imagine how big was the Audio-Technica, even in Mexico, amazing!
However, anybody tried the AT20SL model or it’s unknown to all of you guys ?
Nandric, thanks for reminding me about Benz cartridges. I think the Paratrace from UK is the closest to Stanton's Stereohedron (not MR), one day i will try it on my Stanton WOS |
Another reason why i trust AT-ML170 series (and AT-ML180): "Kavi Alexander, auteur of the remarkable Water Lily Acoustics series of analogue vinyl discs, is monitoring disc production by comparing test pressings to the master tape. What cartridge is he using? Another moving magnet, this time the TECHNICS EPC 100 mk4. But he describes the AUDIO-TECHNICA AT-ML170 as very similar, and very close to the actual sound of the tape. In this comparison, he says, virtually no moving coil does so well; most have seriously apparent colorations." - TAS Article http://www.regonaudio.com/Stanton881AudioTechnicaATML70.html |
Dear @chakster : Yes, I know very well the information in that link, as a fact the very first time here in Agon was me whom posted.
Now, I respect KA opinion ( who pass on. ) but it was only that and his system and priorities way different from mines. That information was many years ago and today almost all of us have better audio systems.
On the AT/Signet subject even in something so " simple " as can be the small cartridge operation manual it was printed in Japan and you can read it at the Signet manuals.
Anyway, impórtant issue is not the " history " but that all of we discovery all those gems and we are still enjoying !
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
chakster, To my big surprise I heard from my comrade Don for the first time that those ''Stereohedron'' styli used by Stanton are made by the Expert Stylus Co in UK. I had no idea that Expert stylus produces styli. My first experience with them was one Nakaimichi 1000 in which beryllium cantilever their ''Paratrace'' stylus was fitted. I was so impressed that I posted to them my Allaerts MC 2. Besides Axel refused to do ''only stylus'' retip stating that this work is much more difficult then gluing a new cantilever/stylus combo on the restant of the old cantilever. However new cantilever/stylus combo cost 500 euro while Paratrace retip cost only 180 GBP. I also own Stanton's 981/980 but don't believe that the new(?) Paratrace is identical with ''Stereohedron''. BTW I also forget to mention EMT next to Benz as European cart producer. Their new JSD 5&6 are remarcable.
|
Dear dover, Can you bring some ''light'' in this conundrum. Andreoli was the first ''designer'' who criticized Van den Hul stylus shape which is based on the ''shape'' of the cutting chisel by record production. ''Totaly wrong'' according to him. I got the so celled ''inside information'' about the ''fine line'' used by (some) EMT carts. According to this story the material used to cut records (aka ''lacquer'') is different than vinyl which is used to produce records. Their ''fine line'' is , according to this story, designed by considering this difference. My interest is , as the most, based on my own believe so I got one of those new SDS 6 carts with ''fine line stylus'' instead of Gyger stylus which is the same as Van den Hul stylus. Van den Hul designed all Gyger (kinds of) styli. |
Dear @harold-not-the-barrel : I tested my 170/180 cartridges with several headshell types and where I found out the best performance in my system was with the Audio Technica MS-10 that is a magnesium one with damping rubber in the top plate.
@chakster , in those times some one in AT was in love with ceramic that was the material they used in a pretty all ceramic TT mat, even they made it for Audio Craft too. Obviously I bougth the AT and was satisfied till I learned about.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Regards Raul, Chakster & Timeltel
Many thanks for your great input on AT180/170, I really appreciate. I must point out that the AT180 having miniatyre ML stylus tip with a very low effective mass is a very special top quality vintage cartridge, despite its possible "resonant" issue. Not to be underrated for sure. As we can see again, this is the greatest thread on A´gon and will continue for a long long time as it already has almost for a decade...
|
Timeltel, Thanks for publishing the specs for the TK7LCa. I note (as you apparently did too) the very low inductance for such a high output cartridge. Normally, one would expect inductance and output voltage to go up in parallel, but in this case the inductance of the TK7LCa is about one-tenth that of a typical MM and yet the output is right up there with the high output group that typically measures around 500mH inductance, give or take. Do you have any idea how Signet seems to have side-stepped a law of physics? |
Dear @lewm : """ as the TK1Ea and TK3Ea used to have the regular stereo generator of the initial AT120 family models (780 Ohm/490 mH), while the TK5Ea, TK7Ea and TK7LCa used to sport a higher inductance variant with 800 Ohm/550 mH). """
this information comes from one of the VE gurus and is confirmed for and AA guru:
""" as the TK1Ea and TK3Ea used to have the regular stereo generator of the initial AT120 family models (780 Ohm/490 mH), while the TK5Ea, TK7Ea and TK7LCa used to sport a higher inductance variant with 550 mH).............................................................................................................................. The 350mH motor is the lowest inductance MM offered by AT. In the past the Signet TK9, 10 series and the AT22 through 25 were 85mH. I had a TK10ML II back in the day. It is an exceptional cart, but as you might imagine could be a nightmare mated with an old phono section stuck at 47K/225pF. """
""" The 7V was a modernized version of the Signet TK7LCa (Ea). """
and from the manual specs the 7v has 500 mH and is confirmed in this guru post in AC:
""" Unlike the Signet TK7LCa (550mH) the 7V is 500mH ... """
So, seems to me that that 50mH in that brochure could has a print " mistake ".
Other than the AT 24 series I don’t know any other MM with, not even in the AT line, inductance lower than 85 mH and this was achieved by Audio Technica. Btw, coil AC resistance in the 24 is 240 ohms.
Moving iron and moving flux cartridge designs normally comes with lower inductance than the MMs. For example, the Astatic MF-200 has 90mH that's even lower than Glanz. AKG 25 comes with 170 mH.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R.
|
Regards, Lewm:
Good to hear from you.
"Do you have any idea how Signet seems to have side-stepped a law of physics?"
Umm, because Signets are magical?
Seriously, a year or so ago I thought myself fortunate in locating a NOS TK7Lca. #140, a very early serial number. Apparently never removed from the presentation case, all documentation included.
Those numbers were taken from the accompanying brochure, I did (figuratively) scratch my head.
I wasn't there when the figures were transcribed but best guess is the "0" that *most probably* followed the "58" (mH) was eclipsed in translation from Japanese.
No excuses for not thinking it through, mea culpa but theya culpa first.
Peace,
|
Dear @dlcockrum : Yes, I still think that the Empire 4000D/III is a great performer and now that you mentioned MicroAcoustics design are really good but people just did not take in count and this could be a " mistake " for audiophiles because other that the model you own the 630 is a must to listen.
Seems to me that today almost all people are around the JVC cartridges when still exist many " gems " that was discussed in this thread as: MicroAcoustics 630, B&O MMC 1/2, Azden P50 ( Nippon Azden was the builder of Acutex cartridges. ) , Acutex flat nose and many more. All these cartridges outperform the Signet TK7LC as it does the TK10MK2.
Anyway, good to see that you like the Empire. Btw, Nippon Azden builded cartridges for Empire too. ). I don't know how many of you own the Azden 50 and if already gave it a good opportunity to shows at its best. Maybe , time to test it again.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Thanks Raul. I will always be grateful for the great thread you started and for all that I learned from those here because of it.
Dave |
Regards, dlcockrum:
What a gracious post---
Those who would be arbiters of taste rarely receive the appreciation they earn.
Peace,
|
Thanks, Raul and Timeltel, for confirming that the data on inductance for the TK7LCa is a misprint. Just to remind, there ARE some LOMM cartridges with low inductance, e.g., the Stanton 980/981LZS, which is listed in a Stanton brochure that I found on-line as having inductance of 1.0 mH. That's about 20 times more than a typical LOMC and 500 times less than a typical HOMM. But of course the price for the low inductance of the 981LZS is low output (0.35mV, probably at 3.54 cm/sec). So the Stanton is not violating any law of physics. Yet, when you think about it, the Stanton reduces inductance by 500X and output by only about 10X, compared to a more typical MM. Good trade-off. Good magnet, too.
|