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Who needs a Diamond Cantilever...? 💍

So suddenly, there seems to be a trend for Uber-LOMC cartridges released with Diamond Cantilevers...😱
As if the High-End MC cartridges were not already overpriced....?!
Orofon have released the MC-ANNA-DIAMOND after previously releasing the Limited Edition MC-CENTURY...also with Diamond Cantilever.
Then there’s the KOETSU BLOODSTONE PLATINUM and DYNAVECTOR KARAT 17D2 and ZYX ULTIMATE DIAMOND and probably several more.

But way back in 1980....Sony released a Diamond-Cantilevered version of its fine XL-88 LOMC Cartridge.
Imaginatively....they named this model the XL-88D and, because it was the most expensive phono cartridge in the world (costing 7500DM which was more expensive than a Volkswagen at the time)....Sony, cleverly disguised this rare beast to look EXACTLY like its ’cheap’ brother with its complex hybrid cantilever of "special light metal held by a carbon-fibre pipe both being held again by a rigid aluminium pipe".
The DIAMOND CANTILEVER on the 88D however......was a thing of BEAUTY and technological achievement, being formed from ONE PIECE OF DIAMOND including the stylus 🤯🙏🏽

I’ve owned the XL-88 for many years and recently discovered that it was my best (and favourite) cartridge when mounted in the heavy Fidelity Research S-3 Headshell on the SAEC WE-8000/ST 12" Tonearm around my VICTOR TT-101 TURNTABLE.
Without knowing this in advance.....I would not have been prepared to bid the extraordinary prices (at a Japanese Auction Site) that these rare cartridges keep commanding.
To find one in such STUNNING CONDITION with virtually no visible wear was beyond my expectations 😃

So how does it sound.....?
Is there a difference to the standard XL-88?
Is the Diamond Cantilever worth the huge price differential?
Is the Pope a Catholic....?

This cartridge simply ’blows my mind’...which is hard to do when I’ve had over 80 cartridges on 10 different arms mounted on two different turntables 🤯
As Syntax said on another Thread:-
When you have 2 identical carts, one regular cantilever and the other one with diamond cantilever (Koetsu Stones for example), the one with diamond cantilever shows more details, is a bit sharper in focus and the soundstage is a bit deeper and wider. They can sound a bit more detailed overall with improved dynamics
I’ll leave it at that for the time being. I will soon upload to YouTube, the sound comparisons between the two Sony versions on my HEAR MY CARTRIDGES THREAD.

But now I’ve bought myself a nightmarish scenario.......
There is no replacement stylus for this cartridge!
There is no replacement cantilever for this cartridge!
Each time I play records with it, I am ’killing’ it a bit more 🥴😥
If I knew how long I had left to live......I could program my ’listening sessions’ 🤪
But failing this.....I can’t help but feel slightly uncomfortable listening to this amazing machine.
halcro

Showing 22 responses by mijostyn

mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
Rauliruegas, it seems to me the big difference is the way certain stylus shapes like the Gyger S decrease surface noise some how. Straight elliptical styli are noisier. Perhaps the larger contact area rides over the surface of the record better. There is a reason but I have never heard any of the experts voice it. 
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
@dover, I think you are being a little harsh on halcro. Most people do not have access to equipment like you do. I had that kind of access once so I have lived on both sides of the street. When selecting a cartridge there is always a bit of luck involved. You select one by reputation and whatever criteria you deem important. You rarely get to hear one at length. Hopefully, you like it. 
There is no question that MM cartridges sound different than MC cartridges. Which one is better depends entirely on taste. My tendency over the years is to stick with MI cartridges. I find many MC cartridges to be irritating and tinny. Many are lacking in dynamic range regardless of what phono stage you use. To me, miss tracking is the biggest evil of all followed by record wear issues such as tracking force. Protecting my record collection is first and foremost. I also tend to gravitate towards fine line styli. They are quieter in my experience.  
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
@halcro , not that your opinion does not count but, the vast majority of cartridge manufacturers prefer boron rod cantilevers. In a competitive market were top performance counts there must be a reason for this. Who knows, It might just be that boron rods are more available. Diamond comes up once in a while but does not gain much traction for whatever reason. It is significantly heavier than boron which is going to cut high frequency performance and lower the resonance point of the cantilever and it's suspension perhaps creating a high frequency peak which some people might like. 
Right now I have two cartridges. One has a boron cantilever the other a ruby cantilever. The boron is MM and the ruby is MI. 
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
@dover , 40 Koetsu's? Jimminy Crickets you are a sucker for crappy cartridges and how on gods green earth do you wear out cartridges that fast. That would be at a rate of close to one cartridge every year since Koestu started. Maybe you buy broken ones and have them rebuilt for sale? 
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
bestgrooove, that is interesting to hear about your experience with VDH.
Just in looking at pictures of his cartridges I always thought they looked amateurish. What you are saying does not surprise me at all but there are some people who swear by his work. I would never buy one because the workmanship is not up to the standards other manufacturers use. AHH, "but it is handmade!" I've got news for everyone, all cartridges are hand made. AHH, "but not by VDH himself!" I would rather have my cartridge built by a 26 year old woman with eagle eyes and rock steady hands. I'm 67 and I would never try to assemble a cartridge now. I can place sutures but I have to use one hand to steady the other. Working under a microscope would be a real mess. 
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
@rauliruegas, Thanx, I thought there must be a reason so many top manufacturers would use boron rod aside from a nice flat end to glue a stylus too and index it correctly.
I had a Talisman S for years. I liked it a lot. It was small and light, tracked super well and imaged nicely. It was a little thin sounding overall in my system. Eventually a wire broke inside and one channel went dead. It was replaced by a Grado Statement. 

The glue being used is probably softened by certain solvents. As an example ethanol will slowly dissolve epoxy. Water is no danger. In a pint of distilled water add two drops of J+J's Baby Shampoo. This works great as a stylus/cantilever cleaner and will not damage the glue. Glued on styli are tough enough to handle routine use just fine. They are not as tough as pressed in styli but there is considerably less mass were it counts. I did have the stylus off a Clearaudio Charisma vaporize not long ago but it was brand new and was replaced instantly by the importer Musical Surroundings. The replacement has been fine. You definitely do not want to drop or fumble the tonearm. I've always cued by hand but I think that is going to change. Schroder arms do not come with tonearm rests. Mr Schroder believes in avoiding anything not totally necessary hanging off his arms. He believes they resonate. I always lock my arms in place when I work on the cartridge. You can't work on an arm floating around, dangerous. So I made a cocobolo tonearm rest that will be attached to the Sota's plinth which I have been lead to believe I will have in two weeks or construction will start in two weeks, not clear:-( 

In December I will be going to NYC for the audio show. On the way down I plan on stopping at Soundsmith to hear the Strain Gauge. I will try and get an answer from Mr Ledermann why he does not use a diamond cantilever. His best cartridges use ruby and cactus spines. 
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
Chakster, It is being done this way for a reason. Modern adhesives are very strong and light. It is easier to align the stylus and keep it aligned while the glue is set by UV. The square shank indexes the cut surface of the cantilever  which is set at the right angle. The end result is much lighter and tough enough to stand regular service. It is easier to knock the stylus off if the cartridge is miss handled. There is nothing special about those old cantilevers. That diamond cantilever is a boat anchor. It is too short and way to fat, an experiment perhaps. If nobody else does it that way there is a reason. Lasers are better than ever. Blasting a little hole through a cantilever is child's play. But, then you are left with the mass of material beyond the stylus hole in exactly the wrong place. What you are showing us is outdated technology.
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
@dover, all modern cartridges use nude styli except the very cheapest ones which still use a shank. I thick what you mean is mounted without glue? I get the same image when I look at the Soundsmith ruby cantilever and diamond. 
Modern adhesives dry to be extremely hard, just ask your dentist. There is an advantage to gluing the stylus to the end of the cantilever. Effective mass. You don not have to have extra cantilever at the end to hold the stylus. Diamond cantilevers have one major disadvantage.  They are very heavy  relative to boron which affects tracking and record wear. I think if you ask Peter Ledermann he would probably tell you that the extra mass was unacceptable. The stiffness of diamond can be matched by increasing the diameter of the boron cantilever a little still maintaining a weight advantage. The difference is like comparing a 200 lb individual with a 135 lb individual. Who do you think will win that boxing match? 
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
Pretty good amateur opinion Raul.  This is what I came up with. The specific gravity of Boron is 2.34. This means that Boron is 2.34 times heavier than an equal volume of water. The specific gravity of diamond is 3.52! Diamond is significantly heavier than Boron. A Boron cantilever will have a lower effective mass and theoretically track better. This does not take into account the stiffness of the two materials. Both are very stiff but I believe diamond is stiffer. The stiffer material would provide more accurate transmission. In order to know which is superior in any given design I think you would have to build the cartridge both ways and subject it to testing. I have this itch that tells me the diamond is more of a marketing strategy than anything else. The manufacturers of some very fine cartridges seem determined to avoid using diamond cantilevers and I'm sure there is a reason. I was hoping jcarr could fill us in on it.
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
@jcarr , Is there a reason you do not make a cartridge with a diamond cantilever? As a maker of fine cartridges I doubt it would be the cost of it as it seems you are willing to do anything to make the finest cartridge you are capable of. Thanx in advance for your answer.
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
best -groove, is is very difficult for many of us to audition these cartridges. We frequently have to make buying decisions based on our assessment of the technologies involve and on the opinion of others. These discussions can aid people in making decisions to buy or not buy a specific cartridge. There absolutely nothing vital about this hobby. There is nothing life or death here. So, if you do not want to get involved I'm absolutely sure it will not cause you any ill effect. There are other places you can talk about music. 
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
@rauliruegas, yes, that is what is responsible for the brightness I think. That does not bother me so much as I can correct any frequency response problem. I would just store a target curve specifically for the cartridge. The Win was a very poor tracker for reasons I do not understand. Ledermann however insists that wear is so low (tracking so good) that you can play lacquer masters repeatedly without wear. 
For those reading this that do not know how a strain gauge cartridge works; a strain gauge is a small device that changes resistance with stress. If you send a regulated DC voltage through the strain gauge vibrations from the record will alter the resistance which then alters the voltage. The DC is then removed leaving a modulated AC signal representing the music. It is a more direct way of of creating the signal than waving a coil in front of a magnet or a magnet in front of a coil. There were two that I know of historically, The Win Labs and Panasonic had several models I believe. None of them did well here in the States.
Now Peter Ledermann has introduce another model which has reviewed well other than that brightness. I would like to see a comparison to the DS audio optical cartridge. 
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
@rauliruegas , There are several who have said the SG leans to the bright side of things. It is an alluring concept. I had a Win Labs cartridge for about one month. It was awful, the worst cartridge I have ever owned.
Peter Ledermann is convinced it is his best cartridge. Both the SG and the current mode setup will cost about the same $9k, the current mode maybe a little more with a My Sonic Lab cartridge. 
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
@rauliruegas, I have a wonderful sounding phono stage, an ARC PH3 SE with super low noise tubes installed. It has two Sowter 1990 transformers installed which I can adjust for pretty much any moving coil cartridge. The Sowters have their own inputs and inside I installed another terminal strip which forms a bridge to the input stage. For high output cartridge use I just disconnect the terminal strip. 
I know you prefer SS phono stages but this is the most solid state sounding tube phono stage I have heard. It does have a FET input stage and it uses 6922 tubes which are no where near as colored as 12AX7s.

I am going to add either a current mode phono stage or a strain gauge
set up eventually. What are your feelings on this subject?
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
@lewm , I had that disease for a little while. It came to the point that I figured I had better places to spend my money. Even if moving mass is THE factor, obviously there are others and MC cartridges have come a long way in reducing moving mass. I really liked my Grado. It was a very easy cartridge to live with, no vices. After the Grado I drifted back into MCs and I had some good ones but the cost of doing business was skyrocketing and I had this itch that said MCs were very over priced. It turns out they are. I have not heard one yet that is actually worth the difference. The only avenue I have not explored yet is the current mode phono stage/ low impedance one. I will when I get around to it if I do not decide to go for Soundsmith's Strain Gauge. In the mean while I have yet to hear "The Voice"  The New York Audio Show is in December this year. Gammaman and I plan to attend. On the way down I plan on stopping at Soundsmith to hear the Strain Gauge. 
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
Thanx Lewm for that. Saves me the typing. 

@rauliruegas , you are operating on lay instinct Raul. The coils function as a unit. The length of the wire only determines the coils overall performance/spec. The only problem with the larger coil is that capacitance can cause trouble in high frequency performance. Now, I could give a hoot about vintage cartridges. That is not my thing. I am only talking about modern ones with up to date cantilevers and styli. I am not in a position to hear a lot of cartridges any more. But the moving magnet cartridges I have heard specifically the Clearaudio Charisma, the Goldring 1042 and the AT VM760SLC are excellent performers. Given these cartridges perform well on relatively inexpensive phono stages they represent a much better cost to performance ratio for audiophiles on a budget. I do not think moving coil cartridges come into their own until you are spending $5000 and you will have to spend at least $2000 on a phono stage to get that performance. Ultimately, the absolute best performance may come from a moving coil cartridge but you are talking about equipment that few of us can afford so, it might as well not exist at all, never mind the cost of a diamond cantilever. I would never spend the additional money on one. I personally think boron makes a better cantilever. For constructs that have to change direction 20 k times per second mass is the major factor. 

@terry9 , I doubt the way the stylus is attached to the cantilever make any difference from a performance perspective. The diamonds have a square shank which is captured by a notch at the end of the cantilever. The only issue is durability. Styli that are glued on are easier to break off. I would not recommend them to DJ's. 

Regardless, Graphene will be the ultimate cantilever. It is lighter than Boron and stiffer than diamond. It would also make a better stylus as it is harder than diamond. Lord knows how you would shape it.
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
I guess my brain works differently than lewm and chakster. When I have multiple set ups I always wind up preferring one of them and the others sit and languish taking up space and money. I have never had more than 4 cartridges at a time. I'll buy a cartridge and decide whether or not I like it better then sell the loser. Occasionally I'll use a cartridge for an extended period preferring to spend money on other parts of the system that require upgrade. I used a Grado Statement for over a decade. 
I might in the future go for a Dohmann Helix after he develops his vacuum clamping and dust cover. That table takes two arms. I can keep an high output cartridge on one and a low impedance moving coil on the other for different types of music but that is a very expensive endeavor. I really have not got room for two tables.
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
Raul, that is sort of a wishy-washy answer. There are quality levels in all categories. My point is there are MM and MI cartridges that out perform some LOMC cartridges. There can be no question that the signal to noise ratio and dynamic capability are better. I am not saying that ultimately the highest performers are not LOMC cartridges. However, JC may think they are better but Joe Grado and Peter Ledermann did/do not. All these people have an iron in the fire and you have to interpret what they say as such.

You and I seem to have the same opinion of diamond cantilevers vs boron. Diamond may be stiffer but boron is lighter. Graphene is stiffer and lighter than both! Eventually someone will make a cantilever out of it. At any rate I think it is obvious that many think Boron makes the better cantilever for whatever reason. I suspect lightness trumps stiffness as inertia is critical. The stylus has to stop and start up to 16,000 times/sec. At least I think that is the highest frequency recorded on vinyl, is it not?

@nandric , I'm Jewish. Pure cunning. Never Again! God help Iran if they get close to a nuke.
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
Shoot nandric, cut the political crap. This is fun. I've got two pairs of boxing gloves. Let's have at it. Better yet, how's about a dual! Raul get out those dueling pistols of yours. Back to back gentleman.

@dover , forgetting about the signal to noise issue, modern moving magnet/iron cartridges are now using the same styli and cantilevers of even the most expensive moving coil cartridges and have response curves over 30 kHz forgetting that it is unlikely you can hear anything over 12 kHz. the high end of many moving coils is exaggerated. Many like that. They think it adds detail. It does not and I do not. There are a few neutral MCs I like like the Ortofon Windfeld Ti but even that does not have the punch of a moving magnet cartridge. Eventually I will probably get a current mode phono stage which I understand is more dynamic with a better signal to noise ratio. Until then I will stick with high output cartridges that are not MCs. It is not like I have a crappy system either. I would think it safe to assume someone willing to put up with 8 foot ESLs cares about what he is listening to. 

At any rate my experience with diamond cantilevers is limited, like nonexistent. It does not seem to be the best way to spend your money all things considered. I have had a cartridge with a sapphire cantilever, the Talisman S and now have a cartridge with a Ruby cantilever that I have not had the chance to listen to yet, The Voice, by Soundsmith. IDEA!

retipper, if you are available perhaps you can help us out here. What ar the advantages of a diamond cantilever, disadvantages. You seem to prefer ruby and cactus. Could you tell us briefly why? Thanx so much in advance for helping us out.
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
@dover , van dan Hul does that by eliminating the front pole piece. Sure a diamond cantilever 1/3rd shorter than a boron cantilever will weight about the same assuming the same diameter. The shorter cantilever is sure to have some disadvantages it terms of leverage and tracking error. I have no idea what all this means. You would have to build and test multiple designs to see what happens. My sense is that the cottage builders develop theories and build them assuming they work without a full understanding of other factors and  adequate testing other than listening, the artistic approach. Thus, you wind up with cartridges of different character. In reality cartridges of any type are not very complex devices and it should not be all that difficult to develop a full understanding of the various factors at play. It just takes time and money.
As Raul suggests a lot of it might be developing finer tolerances and better construction methods. Very few of us have the time, money or experience. We know a few things about the cartridges we use, how they sound, how they track and such. We have and defend pet favorites and some of us know a little about the physics involved but, that is about it. Raul has managed to gain a lot of experience by doing whatever it is he does. Between Raul and chakster you probably have 80 % of the cartridge knowledge on this site. My own meager experience seems diametrically opposed to the experience of others. I am beginning to think moving coil cartridges are a waste of money and that you can get equal or better performance out of much less expensive moving magnet and iron cartridges. 
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
Oh, I forgot to mention. The ultimate cantilever will eventually be made of graphene nanotubes, hardest stiffest substance known to man. Very light also! Best of all worlds, expensive as hell.
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
@lewm , I think what you mean to say is the radius of the arc is shorter so the stylus rotates more in the groove than it would with a longer cantilever. The longer cantilever also has more of a mechanical advantage over the motor assembly for whatever that is worth.
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