Who needs a Diamond Cantilever...? 💍

@best-groove

Cartridgelab Italy

How many Victor Direct Couple MC did you fix with him ?
Even Mr. Peter Ledermann (SoundSmith) told me it’s not guaranteed and more like a project, so you never know is it possible to fix or not. I have a few non working samples, one with one channel, another one is dead.

A tiny "printed coil" located right on top of the cantilever, very close to the stylus. Everything is very fragile with this cartridge and repair is difficult. It is not like any conventional cartridge.

@best-groove: good to know Daniele can fix it if there’s a problem. I hope it won’t be needed, but thanks for the tip.

Yes and and also @halcro can sleep peacefully and use the XL88D without fear.
In my country Cartridgelab has diamond cantilevers/stylus  for when it will be consumed

How many Victor Direct Couple MC did you fix with him ?

has already solved problems on a Victor MC L1000  that it knows very well.

if you want more information send him an email, I don’t think Daniele has problems telling if the job becomes impossible.

@edgewear, ''Based on its construction and design I would expect 
''it'' to have some similarities with my Ikeda 9 Rex''. I also own
Ikeda's Rex but need to guess what you mean with ''similar'' ?
Do you mean Halcro's Decca? 

Dear @edgewear : I owned both: the Rex and the 1000 and performs different and both are not shy in the low registers.

The problem in the halcro system was the reason about those low registers he did not like it. Somewuere down there: tonearm, TT or in another system link.

I think you will like the JVC/Victor 1000 but IMHO nothing to die for but maybe in your system could be true synergy in between, I hope be that way.

R.

@nandric

My dear Slavic brother, ’’big’’, ’’long’’ etc. descriptions are logical
not ’’sound’’. The reason is that presupposed comparisons
are described as properties of objects. Being ’’long in Holland’’
means something totally different than being ’’long in Greece or
Italy’’. I was long in Serbia but am shorter in Holland. I.e. relational
sentences can’t be described with ’’subject is predicate ’’ form.
You have also try the same ’’method’’ with ’’little’’ suggesting that
very little glue between the stylus and cantilever is as ’’good’’
as no glue at all. I love you but the truth even more . The same
stated Aristoteles about Plato: ’’amicus Plato sed veritas amicitat’’.
Does ’’very short pipe’’ mean no pipe at all?

no worries, i have all types of cantilevers with all kinds of different combinations such as joint pipe vs. no joint pipe; glue vs. no glue ... etc. Heard it all before, just tried to help a bit to the readers with more images displayed the difference even in the same type from different manufacturers/designers.

Dear @halcro : You made comments on some of my posts but not when I " ask " if you preserve the 8000 effective length, offset angle and overhang when you use straigth headshells in that straigth tonearm.

Regarding the same issue the 8000 design is triaxial balanced and direct from SAEC they say:

" The 8000 ST is perfectly balanced on its X, Y and Z axis, wich converge at a single point for perfect lateral balance. ""

That critical balance and the bearing were designed taking in count the length of the tonearm and its mass according the use of the SAEC dedicated headshell.

The S3 FR headshell you said is the one used with the 88D is more than the double the weigth than the SAEC one and that over-weigth stays where coul do more harm: where MOI is affected the more.

Unfortunatelly I sold my 8000 and I can’t be sure which kind of additional distortions could be generated using that kind of straigth headshell with the 88D.

SAEC tonearms were famous in Japan for its " live/detailed " ( that some times means higher distortions and not a true live or detailed sound. ) kind of sound against the MS MAX 282 and this is not my opinion but what the japanese people opinions on those old times: they had preferences by the SAECs vs MS MAX that IMHO is way better tonearm design and way better performer.

About the SAEC knife bearing Dr Sao Win that was TT and cartridge manufacturer ( between other audio items. ) in his manual of his LOMC cartridge we can read a warning to not use his cartridge in a knife tonearm bearing designs.

Anyway, your coments about thet S3 along the 8000 are welcome especially because you posted the 88D is your HG. Do you already tested the 88D in other tonearm/TT or wit the SAEC headshell ?

Thank’s in advance,
R.

@nandric, I'm not an expert or technician so I may well be mistaken, but I was under the impression that the design of the Victor with the coils 'direct coupled' to the stylus bears some resemblance to Ikeda's design, which also has the coils very close to the stylus, while even discarding a cantilever. The Decca is another variation on this 'direct' theme, although not of the MC kind.  As is the Neumann DST, the most elusive (and bulky) member of this species.

Whether or not this presumed design resemblance translates to similar sonic characteristics remains to be heard. Which is one of the reasons I'm so curious to hear the Victor. As well as the Neumann, but that will probably never happen.

Interestingly, I learned that the designer of the Victor (a gentleman by the name of Mr. Kanno) is the same person responsible for the Phasemation cartridges. I happen to own a Phasemation P-3G (now updated as PP-300), which is a massive overachiever for its modest price. I find it interesting if I can detect a 'designer signature' across various generations of their cartridges. Sometimes there is, sometimes not.

About a year ago, Warren Jarrett, on the Steve Hoffman forum, proposed a group buy of stylus-cantilever combinations from Namiki.  He found out that the micro-ridge stylus/boron cantilever combination would cost $95 each, and the micro-ridge stylus/diamond cantilever combination costs $660 each.  

@edgewear, chakster actually warned against Victor MC's
series ''direct coupled'' kinds with his statement  ''it is hard to
find working samples''. The reason is the etched coils on an
small silicon plate. The coils are from aluminum connected with
very vulnerable (thin) copper wire soldered on aluminum coils.
The copper wire is glued on the cantilever and connected with
4 output pins. The soldered connection is the weak part of
the construction because the wire usually  breaks there. 
That is why ''it is hard to find working samples''. 
My Ikeda Rex feels insulted by your comparison (grin). 

We’re off topic as always.
So for Victor Direct Couple MC please use this thread, you can find all information right there including Carr’s comments. To make it short: if any of them is working then it is very nice cartridge!

I'm not familiar with the kind of mark ups that are common in the audio industry, but a $565 difference between boron and diamond cantilevers - while substantial - doesn't seem to justify the enormous price hike charged for models with this option. If Koetsu and others source their diamond cantilevers from Namiki, they sure make a nice profit with these models.

Sorry to stay off topic, but you gentlemen have me worried now. I was aware that the Victor is quite a delicate device, but I didn't realize it was this fragile. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the one I'm about to receive will be one of the - ahum - rare 'working samples'. Fortunately it can be repaired if need be.

BTW: I intend to install it in my Audiocraft AC-4400 tonearm with MC SL/T straight armpipe. Has anyone tried this combination? If that doesn't turn out to be a good match, I will try it in the FR-64S. Just about every cart I own sounds good in that arm.

I was aware that the Victor is quite a delicate device, but I didn’t realize it was this fragile.

Fear not Edgewear, for the MC-L1000 is a robust cartridge without the tiny PCB embedded in the MC-1 or Victor MC-L10.
Hopefully, as Raul says....the lower frequencies on your sample will be fine.
I know that Thuchan bought one on my recommendation, and he reports no problems 🤗

I will try it in the FR-64S. Just about every cart I own sounds good in that arm.

Every user I know reports exactly the same thing.......an amazing tonearm 🤩

The S3 FR headshell you said is the one used with the 88D is more than the double the weigth than the SAEC one and that over-weigth stays where coul do more harm: where MOI is affected the more.

Yes Raul, it astonished me also.....that's why I never tried it in all the seven years I've owned the 8000/ST 🤯
I have tried every type of headshell I could find in that arm....two types of wood, aluminium, titanium, carbon fibre 🤗
They all sounded better than the SAEC original ceramic headshell which is quite simply....the worst sounding headshell I've ever encountered 👎
How the SAEC engineers could ruin all their fine arms with such a 'dog' of a headshell material (and design) is beyond me.
But when I accidentally fitted the XL-88 onto the 8000/ST (which was already installed in the S-3 headshell on another arm)...the arm simply came 'alive' 🥳
It just demonstrates that trying, experimenting, and listening (rather than believing the opinions of others)....can reveal amazing counterintuitive results in the Audio Chain.

I have the Uni-Protractor and Dietrich made me a special insert to adjust the WE-8000/ST to his 'geometry' 😇

chakster, I am sorry for my ''improper'' conduct by not following
your advise to go back to your JVC-MC1 thread but I was
so impressed with edgewear comment that I want to elaborate on
his ''linguistic finding''. The linguistic constructions which can be
true or false are (complete) sentences, propositions or statements
and not expressions or words. However sometime some expression
can ''enlighten'' some issues in such way that ''long descriptions''
are not needed, 
His expression ''fragile'' to describe JVC MC kinds is pretty plain
while ART 1000 make this so to speak also visible. 
Now those ''passionate cart collectors'' even without Mexican
temper are probably not able to ''grasp'' that others may be
satisfy with, say, ''only 3 or so'' carts. Trying to seduce this kind
of people to  buy such ''fragile'' kinds is not what our forum is
about. Our forum is about information exchange. As objective
as possible. ''Objective'' in this sense may be called ''inter-subjective''.

Dear @larryi  : """  starting with a single diamond that is then cut to form the stylus and cantilever, that diamond would have to be pretty low-grade to start with in order for the price to be anything but astronomical. High quality stylus are made from decent quality natural stones with the cutting and shaping done so that the lattice structure is properly oriented to maximize resistance to wear along the contact points. You could not really do this with a truly one-piece stylus-cantilever diamond.  """

Interesting issue that maybe only people like the one in Namiki or Scan-Tech can give a confirmation or not about. Maybe J.Carr can do it too.

A one piece cantilever/stylus is not self damped other than the cantilever shape to avoid standing waves.

The normal cartridges with cantilever and glued stylus has that damping through the glue kind of material.

R.

Dear Nandric, I do not wish to dwell on ’linguistic constructions’, but I’d say phono cartridges as a species could be called ’delicate’. Meaning not much is required to destroy their proper working. However there are huge differences within the species. I would describe cartridges like SPU and FR7 as ’robust’, while the Victor would probably fall in the ’fragile’ camp. Believe me, I have a firm grasp on its meaning! Operating a vdHul Colibri for years has been most educational......

Dear @halcro  : Yes, the ceramic SAEC headshells are way resonant but the 8000 was designed with that angled headshell and its low weigth.

The S3 headshell you are using is the one you like it with the 88D but ( again ) that " alive " you mentioned maybe is not all about music sound but added distortions.

Look, I owned that S3 and owned other similar " functions " headshell and both makes more harm to the sound that almost goes against qualityperformance:

in the S3 headshell does not exist a direct intimate contact between the cartridge top plate and the headshell body because the cartridge is mounted in a separated metal plate and is here where the cartridge is atached followed for other link/screw that fix the plate to the headshell with another screw.

I owned the Goldbug Brier that comes with exactly with similar characteristics ( in that regards. ) than the S3 and even that the Goldbug headshell is a true beauty and with a lot higher excecution and quality control than the FR still develop additional distortions that I proved when discovered that the Goldbug Brier cartridge can be mounted in stand alone fashion in any other headshell.

Yes, I know that that way is what you like the more. You are more tolerant or less sensitive to those additional developed distortions than me.

R.

@edgewear read this about direct couple carts

@chakster very interesting article, greats cartridges but with short stylus life.

Dear Raul,

You are more tolerant or less sensitive to those additional developed distortions than me.

We’re all here to learn.....For many many years, we’ve heard about your unique ability to identify and analyse ’distortions’ in the ’Audio Chain’.You’ve never been able to describe nor clarify these ’distortions’..🧐
But now you CAN 🥳
HERE on my ’Hear My Cartridges’ Thread are scores of YouTube Videos with dozens of cartridge comparisons on all types of music. Many contributors have been able to identify and describe ’minute’ differences that are audible between each and every cartridge.
Frogman (a professional musician) is consummately skilled and erudite in his abilities to analyse these ’differences’.
He has particularly invited YOU

I would be interested in knowing what you yourself hear in some of these comparisons. Have some fun and feel free to “go in deep”.

For some reason you have failed to accept that invitation...?
Unless you can finally demonstrate to us...one and all....the ’Kinds’ of distortions you are "more sensitive to"....I must politely request that you cease using these meaningless terms.
Certainly in any Post directed at me 🤭

Will be interesting to see if anyone can hear the differences between the ’Normal’ cantilever and the ’Diamond’.....🧐👂

SONY XL-88 LOMC CARTRIDGE

SONY XL-88D LOMC CARTRIDGE Diamond Cantilever

Dear @halcro  : You have extremely short memory because was you in this thread whom don't resist the temptation when I posted the higher prices of cartridges well above the 88D price and posted:

Another :

""  Believe what he says at your own risk.. ""

when IMHO there was not any necessity to  post that refering to me.

Now, even with that truly You Tube " high high resolution " I think you can hear what's obvious but you have to be extremely ingenue/innocent that any one could listen tiny developed kind of distortions though you tube process and then with that signal " destroyed " by the listener rig to listen it.

In the other side if you can't directly at your home system hear the distortions developed by that terrible/disastrous S3 headshell how could you think you will listen it from you tube recording. Makes sense to you? because for me is almost a stupid way of thinking.
Please think for a moment how that S3 " works " against quality when all those ( non-damped. ) metal parts just " inmediatly " return/feedback its developed resonances/distortions to the cartridge cantilevers additional to the tonearm feedback own resonances.

As I posted I experienced with the S3 and with the Goldbug Brier dedicated and similar design headshell.

Any one can see from your system that the room/system it self impedes that you can listen tiny developed distortions due that the subs are rigth below the mounted cartridges and speakers are at " milimeter " from those cartridges, that  to big glass table plate just in front of the speakers and that all metal in the parlor furniture and many many other issues that impedes you can listen truly to some kind of distortions. So it's not that you are more tolerant or less sensitive it's only that in your room/system you just can't listen it.

I'm talking of very fine tunned system ( my system. ) with very high resolution where even me that are not a " golden ears " one can detect it and remember that I have a self developed  whole evaluation bullet proff process where almost everything is matched including SPLs when I make tests and I do it seated at near field position.

In your party time ( heard my cartridges. ) I read it that the SPL for two different cartridges in the tests were not matched, at least was what a gentleman in that " party " posted about.

So, for all those is futile to make through your " method " any serious evaluations.

You have fun in your " kinder-garden "  and go a head, at the end fun is fun.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

In the other side if you can't directly at your home system hear the distortions developed by that terrible/disastrous S3 headshell how could you think you will listen it from you tube recording. Makes sense to you? because for me is almost a stupid way of thinking.

Aaah....but we're not talking about ME Raul.....🤭
Of course I can't hear "distortions" which aren't there 🤪!
We're talking about YOU Raul.....who for years has spoken endlessly about your "self-taught" ability to 'hear' and 'analyse' every facet of the audio chain....and you even do it again in your Post above 😂.
But you admit that you can't hear a SINGLE "distortion" in the YouTube videos....?
What happened to these "distortions" Raul?
Did they somehow manage to 'vanish' in the recording process?
Others (like Frogman, Noromance, Dover) can hear clearly...the minute differences in the cartridges presented via the YouTube videos but you can't....🤗 

Please think for a moment how that S3 " works " against quality when all those ( non-damped. ) metal parts just " inmediatly " return/feedback its developed resonances/distortions to the cartridge cantilevers additional to the tonearm feedback own resonances.

Blah, blah, blah....words and theories which you disguise as 'knowledge' but reveal your ignorance.
Here we have a perfect 'test' for you Raul......
There are a dozen videos on my Thread, which use the WE-8000/ST arm WITHOUT the S3 headshell.
Please point out to us the "resonances, distortions, feedback" that are 'missing' with these headshells...😉
And if you CAN'T.......please have the humility to finally admit to us all, that you are nothing but an 'Audio Fraud' who hides behind meaningless 'words' but when 'challenged' to prove his boastful audio abilities.....continues to 'hide' behind meaningless words 🤣

It’s understandably difficult to hear the ’nuances’ and ’subtleties’ that a different cantilever material may bring....
I couldn’t hear the differences between a SAS-Boron, a NeoSAS-Sapphire and a NeoSAS-Ruby when I did the comparisons a while ago 🤨
It is therefore even more difficult to isolate any differences via YouTube videos. It becomes easier the better your playback medium is....

Listen to the beginning of the track with just the bass guitar, percussion and piano....
There is a distinctly different ’tone’ and clarity with the 88D and an ’added’ ability to project a 3D image.
Then listen at the 0.33 sec mark when the saxophone first comes in....there is a slight coarseness to its sound which is missing with the Diamond stylus.
Listen to the background drums behind the piano at the 1.00+ min mark which are more distinct and shimmery with the 88D.
And the real ’kicker’ at the 1.42 mark where the sax begins to strut its stuff....the 88D just gives this so much ’tonality’ that you can actually hear the reed..
Then listen to the background percussion and cymbals behind the sax all the way to the 3.00 min mark. Just a bit clearer and shimmery (again) with the 88D.
Then the drums from the 3.00 to the 3.30 marks...just a bit more ’timbre’ with the 88D.
At the 4.05 mark with the bass, piano and percussion...hear the extra clarity and sheen of the cymbals with the 88D and particularly behind the bass at the 4.40 mark till the end.

Assumptions and deductions. Assumptions can be ''translated''
as premise and deductions as deductions from the premise.
The general logical rule then is: if the premise is not true than
also deductions can't be true.
The, say, ''Aussie premise'' is that the only difference between
XL-88 and XL-88D is the cantilever/stylus combo which is by
88D made from one piece of diamond while XL -88 has boron
cantilever and glued in ''super elliptical stylus''. Their price 
difference can be explained by complexity of ''cutting'' and polishing
of the diamond. BTW the first Van den Hul stylus designed for
Gyger (aka Gyger 1) was so complex that many samples were
lost. That is why Gyger 2 with less complex shape and dimensions
was produced. 
I ever started a thread with title ''irreparable carts'' and mentioned
explicit  XL-88D and all ZYX as such. Both have glued together
''plastic  bodies'' whit no entrance to inside parts. If, say, the
damping needs substitution there is no way to fix this problem.
Mori-san the inventor of the 8 figure coil former by XL series
stated that repair of his XL-88 and 88D is not possible. 
My friend Axels Schurholz deed try for two years to fix my 88D 
and then give up.
Ergo from the premisse it follows that diamond cantilever/
stylus made form one piece of diamond is superior to
''ordinary boron kind'' but this does not imply that all
diamond cantilevers are superior. All those with glued in
styli in particular. The curious ''damping theory'' of the
used glue between stylus and cantilever is an wonder in
the context of the ''rigidity theory''. 

''Slightly scientific'' argument is , say, '' stolen'' from our beloved
J. Carr who stated that the advantage of aluminum cantilevers 
is that stylus can be pressure fitted while by the ''exotic kinds''
the stylus must be glued in. Aka ''suggesting'' the relevance of
''rigidity theory'' in this context .
BTW I owned both kinds of the XL 88. Despite the fact that my
88 D sample have had ''crooked'' cantilever/stylus and consequently
the headshell looked as ''adjusted'' by either an drunkard or someone
who has never heard about azimuth the sound of 88 D was 
superior. So I sold the 88 with assumption that my friend Axel
Schurholz will easily get the stylus perpendicular because of
the (further) assumption that all cantilevers ''must'' be glued in
the so called ''joint pipe''. Both assumptions were based on
''wishful thinking''. This was the very tragic situation with my 88D.
Anyway it seems that wear and tear of this diamond is not the
only problem by 88 D. I.e. also an possible retip will be problematic
because the cantilever is differently fastened in the ''joint pipe''. 
Otherwise Axel would not need two years to solve this problem.
 

Dear @halcro : """ I couldn’t hear the differences between a SAS-Boron, a NeoSAS-Sapphire and a NeoSAS-Ruby when I did the comparisons a while ago 🤨
It is therefore even more difficult to isolate any differences via YouTube videos.."""

of course you can’t, this fact is already in evidence by your own words.


""" Others (like Frogman, Noromance, Dover) can hear clearly.. """

because these gentlemans are golden ears , I stated that I’m not a golden ear person and that my evaluation process always uses the same LP tracks.

Anyway, you want to build a " case " around me but the problem is your overall way of thinking that’s the same over several years: just can’t grow-up and I don’t know why. Sometimes I think you have some masoqchist signs in your dialogues with me that always are full of agresivity .

I already posted :

"" Another :

"" Believe what he says at your own risk.. ""

when IMHO there was not any necessity to post that refering to me. """

your very first attack with out any reason because I only shared the prices of other cartridges that I took from the Japanese audio Bible that’s not a magazyne but a true book with around 700 pages.

It does not matters what you can post in your favor and what you post hitting me the true fact is that in your room system you just can’t be aware of several kind of resonances/distortions but if you still think that your room/system is no problem then as I posted you are really tolerant or less sensitive that other persons like me.

I think is enough and useless for any one but you to follow this kind of dialogue that you started ( as always. ) whit that post.

Your frustration levels when you " talk " with me is so high that impedes that you can see the reality with that hum,ility you stated before.

Again, enough.

R.


PS:   "  can invent 'facts' to prove any nonsense...."""

JC ( as Namiki ) posted that with aluminum cantilevers the stylus can be fitted by presure only and some one of us took it this as an advantage and I was so stupid to ask a rettiper to makes this for some MM carrtridges that latter on and after listening it with aluminum I had to invest again in that carrtridge to change to boron glued stylus type.. 

JC only posted that but he never used aluminum cantilevers in his Lyra cartridges but other glued materials as the 99.99999% of all top cartridge today manufacturers.

Who can today been so stupid thinking in the " great " presure fitted with cantilever aluminum material?, yes only an stupid: fortunatelly I learned and left my " stupid graded " attitude in those old times. Did you read it well?: I learned !

I have the Proteus D (diamond cantilever) and the TopWing Red Sparrow setup.Come by and listen to them.

Mat
www.jjaudiosolutions.com

It’s impossible via the YouTube Videos to hear the ephemeral nuances that I hear in my room....things like soundstage (side to side and back to back), transparency, imaging, image height etc
Try this track.....

SONY XL-88 LOMC CARTRIDGE

SONY XL-88D LOMC CARTRIDGE Diamond Cantilever

Among the ''stupid persons'' who prefer aluminum cantilevers
I can mention Ikeda-san with his whole series FR-7 and also
his latest Ikeda 9 TT.  Than Takeda san with his Miyabi Standard,
Reto Andreoli's ''Magic Diamond'' as well all Dertonarms MC's
and MM carts. Using qualifications instead of arguments is
typical characteristic of ''well educated'' people. However if
one lacks arguments than ''calling names'' is some kind of
solution or ''way out''.

In my opinion it is much easier to compare different cantilevers on MM or MI cartridge inserts. In this situation the generator is the same, the difference is only a cantilever (sometimes stylus profile too). This is the reason why i like manufacturers who gave their customers almost all types of cantilevers to choose. Grace gave that option for advanced models, so anyone can try Aluminum, Beryllium, Boron, Sapphire, Ruby and even Ceramic cantilevers on the same cartridge. I think this is such a great option for curious people.

The situation is different with MC cartridges, but in addition to @nandric post above i would like to remind everyone that modern Miyajima MC cartridges are all comes with Aluminum cantilevers, even an exotic Madake cantilever is a mix of aluminum pipe and rare bamboo. The Miyajima-San claimed that his choice of cantilever material is based on actual sound of his cartridges and different cantilevers does not improved the sound. You will not find any Boron in Miyajima cartridges. I think the goal is patented Cross-Ring method which makes those cartridges so unique and highly regarded. Cartridge designeds mentioned by Nandric are all retired or dead, but Miyajima-San is alive and still making outstanding LOMC cartridges with Aluminum cantilever.

Dear chakster, ''designers mentioned by Nandric are all retired or
dead''. Well Reto Andreoli just produced successor  of his Magic
Diamond while our former member Dertonarm is still going
strong. Ikeda passed away this year and produced two new
carts with aluminum cantilever two(?) years ago:  Ikeda 9 TT and 9TS.  You should update your (carts) encyclopedia (grin).
Promoting MM kinds in order to better compare cantilevers will
not work for me.  

Parts and wholes. Our eloquent architect from Australia should
as such introduce this thread with some kind of, uh, introduction.
We all know that an building consist of ''parts'' but also that the
most look different while among them some are called ''artist''
and the other ''ordinary''. 
We have also heard this confusing ''explanation'' that the
whole is ''more'' than the number of parts  questioning our
''proven'' number theory. There is the aggregation method of
''putting parts'' together but also ''coalition'' or ''composition''.
Equal or similar parts can be put together as a heap and also
count like money. But ''composition'' can be best illustrated
with musical composer. Why can we hear differences between
Mozart , Bach, Wagner, etc. ?  Is an musical work ''distinct 
quality'' on its own? Such that we can separate one from the
other. Does this also apply for carts designers such that we
can hear differences between Ikeda and Van den Hul ,etc.?
There is also ''causal'' explanation versus reasons explanation.
The first assume some binary relation between cause ''a'' and
effect ''b'' while reasons can be more than two. Then there are
the old Aristetotelian ''essential'' and ''accidental'' properties of
objects. The ''essential'' assume a priori knowledge because
finding out what quality objects have is a function of time and
search.
So how should we deal  with one single part in the ''whole''
of an cartridge construction or ''composition''? 
By comparison between two ''identical carts'' with different
single part? (equal and ''identical'' are different animals)

@nandric I have no idea who is Reto Andreoli (and our Dertonarm as a cartridge designer), but i respect japanese school of cartridge design from the masters like Takeda and Ikeda, at least i own some of their best cartridges. And yes, all with aluminum cantilever. Takeda’s last work was for 47 Labs before he retired. I don’t think Ikeda (R.I.P.) personally made any cartridges at his age in the past 10 years or so. But i am waiting for Ikeda IT-345 tonearm soon for the Miyajima Kansui cartridge (also with aluminum cantilever).

@chakster by "dertonarm" Nandric means Dietrich Brakemeier of Acoustical Systems. All of his cartridges including the top of the range Palladian which @halcro and I both use have aluminium cantilevers and sound (to my ears at least) first rate. Considering his use of exotic materials in other aspects of these models I presume he's chosen Al for the cantilever as he believes this works best.

I believe dertonarm was the Audiogon ID Dietrich used to use when he hung out in these parts back in the day ...

@halcro 

It’s impossible via the YouTube Videos to hear the ephemeral nuances that I hear in my room....things like soundstage (side to side and back to back), transparency, imaging, image height etc

Hi Halcro - in my view, even on standard mac ibuds/Macair,  it's quite easy to here significant differences between the XL88 & XL88D.

In some ways the 1st comparision was more revealing - the base line on the XL88D has much better timing and resolution. The XL88 by comparison has no timing at all on the base line, its all over the place. There is more information around the base line in paricular, harmonic fulness and detail. The high frequencies on the XL88D are crisper and appear to be significantly more transparent.

On the second recording again the timing is better, more transparent through the while range, by that I mean you can hear more body, harmonic completeness and sustain and decay of notes. Piano is  much more purposeful on the XL88D ( and more real ). 

As an aside, on your comparision of the Palladian and XL88 on the other thread the mid to top end of the XL88 sounded identical to the old Madrigal Carnegie on baroque music both of which I listen to a lot. The Carnegie was a Sony XLMC9 rebadged. Your comment about "vintage cartridges" is a little misnomer as Sony Soundtech designed these cartridges to be the ultimate analogue ( triple layer cantilevers of boron/carbon & aluminium, newly designed figure 8 coil layout and the Sony motor design was adopted by both Van den hul & Benz. The Early Van den hul MC1/Benz Ref/Carnegie are virtually identical.

I do note however the bass being still a little vague on the SAEC/XL88 on the baroque ( noticeable because the mid to top end is so good ) and would encourage you to find a lighter more rigid headshell - these Sony's are medium compliance and their suspensions are not robust. Again I believe the Cobra tonearm would provide the same improvements with the Sony XL's as you experienced with the Palladian over the SAEC.

I know from personal experience the Sony XL88D performed extremely well on the Dynavector tonearm I own, significantly better than on the SAEC 407/23 used on the same turntable.

Finally, congrats on the acquisition of the XL88D, one day it will be no more, but at least you have had the pleasure of hearing it for a while, a very special cartridge.

Thank you Dover.....
'Golden Ears'......👂

And not to forget perhaps the most famous cartridges of all time.....the Ortofon SPU.
In all its guises....even with their new top-of-the-line SPU Century......only aluminium cantilevers 👍

even with their new top-of-the-line SPU Century......only aluminium cantilevers 👍

From what I read then aluminum is dominant in cantilevers for several expensive and extra expensive cartridges today.

I have to think that other materials like boron, diamond, etc. were they just pleasant experiments to bring prestige to the brand?

Well, the SPU is an exception because it is oldschool design invented when dinosaurs were alive on the planet earth. 

Whenever a Tyrannosaurus was nearby, the needle would jump out of the groove with every step the T Rex took.  That's when the idea of turntable isolation took root.  But the SPU could take the abuse.

Dear chakster, Reto Andreoli was as obsessed with carts as you
are. At the age of 15 and speaking only German he went to
Australia determined to learn the art by the best teachers
thinkable: Garrot brothers. He become their little brother so,
actually there were 3 Garrot brothers. After their tragic dead he
returned to Switzerland and started his own company producing
all kinds of components all of them hand made by the master.
His series MC carts consist of Virus, Magic Diamond and Silver
Spirit. All made only on order. If one need to ask for the price
such a person is not suitable as his customer. 

Dear @dover  : You are rigth about the Madrigal Carnegie 1 that came with the triple blend cantilever materials as the Sony but remember that exist the Carnegie 2 that is a different design where the cantilever came of boron and this C 2 as the C1 were a develops shared by Benz/VdH..

I owned the C1 and is not to bad but not so good either when the C2 ( that I still own. ) is very good performer: different design.


"""   would encourage you to find a lighter more rigid headshell - these Sony's are medium compliance and their suspensions are not robust.  """

almost any cartridge sounds better in differentb decent tonearms than SAECs and in the especial 8000 model this tonearm was designed for high compliance cartridges , not my words but SAEC ones. Good that you are hearing the " disaster " down there.

R.

Dear @best-groove :  """  From what I read then aluminum is dominant in cantilevers for several expensive... """

no, it's not that way only some models. The SPU case is especial because the 80% of sales are made in Asia and Japanese are so idiocincratic in that cantilever material regards as in other audio items.

Dynavector use diamond and boron, Lyra use Boron, Ortofon diamond and boron in its top models, VdH use boron, Benz-Micro Ruby and boron, Sumiko use Boron, Air Tigth Boron, ZYX boron, My Sonic Labs boron, Koetsu diamond and boron, Clearaudio boron and I can go on listing today tops cartridges but even in the past too berylium, diamond and boron were the materials in the top model cartridge cantilevers: AT, Audio Craft, Audio Note, Technics, Sony, Dynavector, Yamaha, tec, etc.

Aluminum in the FR was what the designer like it more when he voiced his cartridges. Cantilever is an important part in the whole cartridge desing but only one part and in the voicing of the manufacturers we are in the " hands " of the designer bias to some kind of sound he was looking for.

Aluminum in the Magic Diamond was or is used not because is the best material but first because use the same cartridge motor of the Denon 103 ( aluminum cantilever. ) and second because was what the biased manufacturer like it.
 I had the opportunity to listen to the MD in a first rate system: Walker TT/tonearm, my Essential phonolinepreamp, speakers by Kharma and the like and is nothing to die for, a good cartridge but nothing more.

Maybe in the future when boron disappears aluminum will grow up but not before because it's an inferior material than boron, saphire, ruby or diamond for cantilever cartridges.

R.

@rauliruegas   oook

Dear @best.-groove  : The use of aluminum material in cantilevers has other reasons additional of what I posted.

One of those reasons could be the low knowledge level of the manufacturer to design something better because if that design only sounds good with aluminum in the cantilever then something is wrong in that design and this is true when the design is a copy of other cartridge where exist true inhabilities to make a better design.

Copy-cat is and was more often that we can imagine and not only in cartridges but in tonearms or TT and other audio items.
An examples of that could be the Graham tonearm that comes from the vintage Audiocraft tonearm design or the Moerch that comes from the Highphonic tonearm design.
From where came Highphonic cartridges?, well from ex-Denon cartridge employees that founded HP and the first " move " in their new designs came to the cantilever build material that instead to use aluminum like in Denon they started to use carbon fiber, diamond and ruby.

Today there are several cartrisges that uses the Denon 103 cartridge motor or the Benz-Micro one or the VDH one or Goldring and others cartridge motors and this exist because some of the original manufacturers works as OM for marketers./sales companies.

It's like Jelco that additional to his own tonearms the manufacture for Ortofon, Audioques, Sumiko, Koetsu and others.
Scan-Tech build top cartridges for Lyra, Linn, Audioquest, etc, etc.

Of copurse that both examples makes the " new " tonearm or cartridges under the seller specs/characteristics.


R.

Moerch that comes from the Highphonic tonearm design.

Wrong. Moerch released its first tonearm UP4 in 1981, 4 years before the Highphonic was launched in 1985. I think you’ll find the Highphonic arm was a rebadged Moerch.

From where came Highphonic cartridges?, well from ex-Denon cartridge employees that founded HP and the first " move " in their new designs came to the cantilever build material that instead to use aluminum like in Denon they started to use carbon fiber, diamond and ruby.

So what. Like the Denon DL1000 ( which I owned ) all the Highphonic cartridges ( which I have heard ) were thin and lean, no meat on the bones. If you think you can live on Kale salad these are the cartridges for you. Cartridges are always a sum of the parts - a diamond cantilever on an average cartridge is at best just a more articulate average cartridge.