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Who needs a Diamond Cantilever...? 💍

So suddenly, there seems to be a trend for Uber-LOMC cartridges released with Diamond Cantilevers...😱
As if the High-End MC cartridges were not already overpriced....?!
Orofon have released the MC-ANNA-DIAMOND after previously releasing the Limited Edition MC-CENTURY...also with Diamond Cantilever.
Then there’s the KOETSU BLOODSTONE PLATINUM and DYNAVECTOR KARAT 17D2 and ZYX ULTIMATE DIAMOND and probably several more.

But way back in 1980....Sony released a Diamond-Cantilevered version of its fine XL-88 LOMC Cartridge.
Imaginatively....they named this model the XL-88D and, because it was the most expensive phono cartridge in the world (costing 7500DM which was more expensive than a Volkswagen at the time)....Sony, cleverly disguised this rare beast to look EXACTLY like its ’cheap’ brother with its complex hybrid cantilever of "special light metal held by a carbon-fibre pipe both being held again by a rigid aluminium pipe".
The DIAMOND CANTILEVER on the 88D however......was a thing of BEAUTY and technological achievement, being formed from ONE PIECE OF DIAMOND including the stylus 🤯🙏🏽

I’ve owned the XL-88 for many years and recently discovered that it was my best (and favourite) cartridge when mounted in the heavy Fidelity Research S-3 Headshell on the SAEC WE-8000/ST 12" Tonearm around my VICTOR TT-101 TURNTABLE.
Without knowing this in advance.....I would not have been prepared to bid the extraordinary prices (at a Japanese Auction Site) that these rare cartridges keep commanding.
To find one in such STUNNING CONDITION with virtually no visible wear was beyond my expectations 😃

So how does it sound.....?
Is there a difference to the standard XL-88?
Is the Diamond Cantilever worth the huge price differential?
Is the Pope a Catholic....?

This cartridge simply ’blows my mind’...which is hard to do when I’ve had over 80 cartridges on 10 different arms mounted on two different turntables 🤯
As Syntax said on another Thread:-
When you have 2 identical carts, one regular cantilever and the other one with diamond cantilever (Koetsu Stones for example), the one with diamond cantilever shows more details, is a bit sharper in focus and the soundstage is a bit deeper and wider. They can sound a bit more detailed overall with improved dynamics
I’ll leave it at that for the time being. I will soon upload to YouTube, the sound comparisons between the two Sony versions on my HEAR MY CARTRIDGES THREAD.

But now I’ve bought myself a nightmarish scenario.......
There is no replacement stylus for this cartridge!
There is no replacement cantilever for this cartridge!
Each time I play records with it, I am ’killing’ it a bit more 🥴😥
If I knew how long I had left to live......I could program my ’listening sessions’ 🤪
But failing this.....I can’t help but feel slightly uncomfortable listening to this amazing machine.
128x128halcro
358 responses Add your response
nandric's avatar
nandric
4,086 posts
 
Why is the ''argument'' put in the context of ''what things have in
common''? Is this Aristotelian ''esence of things'' or some other
''lose criterion''?  All people have in common the ''property'' (?)
of being human . But what is the scientific value of such
generalisations? To formulate any ''general statement'' one needs
(universal) quantifiers like ''all'', ''some'', etc. But those are not
names with referential function, The so called ''numerical quantifier''
explain  the difference : there are exactly 10000000 immigrants
in Germany.  European commission declared that ''each fugitive
has the right to asylum procedure''. But ''each'' does not say
how many those are while each European country is only willing
to allow limited number of immigrants.  Seeing from immigrants
side each of them want to reach European borders without any
chance for asylum. They then walke to the North with Germany
or UK as destination.  But the actual sitution is that each European
country has the problem with illegal immigrants. Caused by the fact
that European commission has no idea what ''all'' means.  





mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
@dover, I think you are being a little harsh on halcro. Most people do not have access to equipment like you do. I had that kind of access once so I have lived on both sides of the street. When selecting a cartridge there is always a bit of luck involved. You select one by reputation and whatever criteria you deem important. You rarely get to hear one at length. Hopefully, you like it. 
There is no question that MM cartridges sound different than MC cartridges. Which one is better depends entirely on taste. My tendency over the years is to stick with MI cartridges. I find many MC cartridges to be irritating and tinny. Many are lacking in dynamic range regardless of what phono stage you use. To me, miss tracking is the biggest evil of all followed by record wear issues such as tracking force. Protecting my record collection is first and foremost. I also tend to gravitate towards fine line styli. They are quieter in my experience.  
dover
2,243 posts
 
@mijostyn
You misunderstand our antipodean humour - @halcro and I have great mutual respect
Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
13,052 posts
 
Dear @halcro  :  Well, in your list of cartridges that are not any more with you all them have something in common: all came from different DESIGNERS  that along other contemporary top LOMC ones all choosed boron build material for their cartridge designs and as edgewear pointed out to you the quality performance levels of many of those designs are really great.

In the other side the market today very high price of LOMC cartridges is not way different that in the past where the top models had a very high market price for the market standards in those old times when existed a way way higher demand for cartridges against the very low number of today audiophiles that buy today LOMC cartridges.

As @dover and several other gentlemans I don't buy a cartridge because its cantilever builed material and in specific if it's boron or beryllium with the vintage ones.

I think that what you did not like it of your list cartridge performance is its overall quality levels that just is different from your audio/music priorities but not because boron.

In the side of beryllium vs boron where you prefer beryllium it's the same but not because in specific of beryllium that's inferior to boron as cantilever material:  beryllium Moh hardeness a low 5.5 vs 9.3 in boron and Young Modulus is almost the third of the boron. Two critical parameters for the cartridge cantilevers needs.

Btw, it's really weird that you can't be aware if you are listenin to a MC cartridge or at MM/MI one. Maybe could be because your room/system can't " tell you "?

Please do not diminish my next advise: could be that when you decide to make a really easy tests with the Wima/Kemet caps in your speakers you will listen those differences that exist between MC and MM/MI cartridges. Those Duelund are high colored caps.

R.


pindac's avatar
pindac
2,864 posts
 
I am using a Beryllium Cantilever with Ogura Vital + Stylus that was installed into the Cartridge in 2019.
This compared to the Ruby Cantilever used on the Original Design is noticeably  improved and presents in a much more attractive manner.
Hoow the Two different Stylus Shapes are contributing to the SQ differences is an unknown to myself. 
I recently tried to have another Cartridge produced with the same Beryllium/Ogura parts, but the option is no longer on offer.

Boron is now the Material of choice I am looking at, hence the inquiry about the Gold Plated Option.
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rauliruegas
13,052 posts
 
Dear @dover  :  "   I have found every shibata tipped cartridge I have heard to be brittle... ""

If I remember the original Shibata was used mainly for the CD-4 recordings and several vintage cartridges ( mainly MM. ) used to as the AT 20 Sla/SS that, between other shibata cartridges designs, I owned but at least with those AT I don't remember or can't remember that " characteristic " you mentioned.

Btw, several design cartridges including today ones that in theory comes with Shibata in reality are " modified Shibata or Shibata like " but not the original Shibata shape.

R.


Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
13,052 posts
 
dover : The original Shibata ( same dimensions. ) stylus shape is used by Ortofon today and in other designs. You can read experiences with a Shibata design cartridges:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/classic-ortofon-cartridges-the-mc2000-mk-ii-or-the-mc3000-mk-...

both the Jubilee and the Cadenza comes with that stylus shape. I owned the Jubilee and like me, no problem with.

Yes, only opinions.

R.
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
Rauliruegas, it seems to me the big difference is the way certain stylus shapes like the Gyger S decrease surface noise some how. Straight elliptical styli are noisier. Perhaps the larger contact area rides over the surface of the record better. There is a reason but I have never heard any of the experts voice it. 
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