Which USB Re Clocker

If you are willing to live with S/PDIF the Wyred4Sound works really well.

However, and in a rare case I agree with ASR, modern DAC's have really good jitter reduction.  If you have a DAC that measures great, you can't improve it, but often make things worse.

If your dac is older, and you can tell by whether it performs poorly with RedBook, then a recklocker/upsampler is a great idea.

The Innuos ZENith mk2 only digital outputs are ethernet direct and USB 2.0.  I also have a ZENith mk2 and think I will save for the Phoenix.  I have heard so many great things about it.

I used a Mutec MC-3+USB in a former setup. It did improve the subjective sense of imaging and space in the sound. When used with a newer DAC, it did not improve things.

So: my suggestion is to make sure anything you try is refundable if you don't like it. The effects of reclockers, like those of power conditioners, are very much dependent on the system (and perhaps on the listener).

SOtM txUSBultra works great in my system

The Innous is basically a small format computer board with a standard computer motherboard USB output.  That being said, it does have a very excellent linear power supply (which definitely helps!!).

The stock Wyred 4 Sound Recovery "usb reclocker" might help.  I could not guess on how much it would help.  The Wyred 4 Sound device would definitely be better if you get an linear power supply upgrade.  The stock version just has a  wal-wart switching power supply adapter.  There are definitely better USB reclockers.

The Innous Pheonix is likely the absolute best USB reclocker with a high end linear power supply with extensive filtering/regulation and a OCXO (oven controlled) clock.  Whether it's worth $3k to you is another question.  I haven't directly tested these types of devices, but the general consensus is the better USB signal feed results in better sound quality. 

I have always used S/PDIF coax as the better result.  In my system, S/PDIF coax from either an Asus Xonar Essence card or my (discontinued) Digital Musiland S/PDIF card has resulted in better sound quality than the USB output from my computer motherboard.  I even have a reference high quality USB cable.  That being said, the JCAT USB card is on my list of things to try.

The USB reclockers can definitely help things, but in my opinion, they are like a bandaid for a flawed source.  In my opinion, it's always best to have the signal clocked properly from the source instead of "fixing it along the way".  That pretty much means a different music server. 

I have found that the Innous music servers actually are not fully transparent to the audio data.  Even the music servers will alter the waveforms with their DSP logic.  If you like this altered/smoothed sound, then that's great.  It's all about personal preference. 

The USB receiver in your DAC may or may not be high end.  Can you tell us what your DAC is?  Depending on what you say, it could be that a really good USB-to-SPDIF converter might end up being a better choice.  Something such as the Singxer SU-6 with a linear power supply.  If you do DSD, you can still support DSD output through i2s if you have an i2s compatible DAC.

The Ideon 3R Mastertime Blackstar is fantastic unit. Several owners have compared it directly to the Phoenix and preferred the Ideon. I own the Ideon with an Innuos Zen 3 and the combo is stellar. I have owned several USB reclockers from SOTM and others selling for $1000 and under ..... and the Ideon is in a different league. Not cheap however. $3200 retail. But can be purchased for far less with the right dealer.

I had to decide between the Phoenix and Ideon. I wanted to buy the Phoenix as I own the Innuos server, but after much research decided on the Ideon. Both are said to be top tier USB reclockers and you can’t go wrong with either.

I must be honest and share that my past experience with Innuos service has not been good. It took them 2 months, and several of my persistent emails, to respond to a question/issue I was having with my Zen. When they finally responded it was with a short and condescending comment of no help from one of the principles. Not good. That soured me a tad and most likely influenced my decision to buy the Ideon.

Your Metrum Octave does not support DSD files.  The Metrum has a decent USB receiver, but probably not quite as good as those DACS with the latest version of Amanero USB receiver.

If you wanted to improve things, I would go with the Singxer SU-6 with an external linear power supply upgrade.  Both the Singxer and the Metrum Octave DAC have a true BNC connector (which is highly superior to normal RCA digital connectors). You can then get an amazing S/PDIF cable to drive the Metrum.  I use a 2-meter Nordost Heimdall II digital coax.  I have not found anything better.  Though, some of the Black Cat digital cables may also be excellent.

The Singxer SU-6 and linear power supply upgrade won't be a wasted investment.  You can always upgrade your DAC in the future.  The Singxer is really there to make the Innous a lot better. 

I'm not sure if the DAC you have uses asynchronous USB. I believe the company went out of business or is realigning or something. IMO you would be better off using your money to get a newer DAC that uses asynchronous USB which makes the notion of things like USB reclockers superfluous. 

Asynchronous USB inputs on dacs do not render reclockers useless. My experience has shown a great reclocker like the Ideon can indeed improve the sonic realism of a system dramatically even if the dac has an asynchronous usb input as mine. 

Really? How?
OP do not go down this idiotic road. The DAC controls the clock you can reclock USB 5 times between the source and the DAC and the DAC will still control. If your DAC is older and isn't aysncronous then a reclocker might be of some use. 

Sorry you find me to be an idiot.  I guess you must know me 🤓. I don’t care to argue with you as I trust my experience and own ears. 

In other words you have no idea why. It’s just a subjective opinion. There is absolutely no reason why a reclocker in an asynchronous system does anything if you have a competently designed modern DAC. Some DACs might get help by having a bit of line noise filtered by them but if you’re going to plop down thousands of dollars just get a decent DAC instead of adding more gadgets to the chain.

Audio-gd DI-20 is not a Reclocker but a DDC and it will improve the sound of your DAC a LOT. 
It converts the USB signal of your streamer to AES/EBU, I2S or SPDIF for the DAC.
The HE version has a built in high end power regenerator and its a superb unit for about 1k.
I have the non HE version (about 500 bucks plus shipping) and it is considerably better than my Gustard U16.
I havent heard the Singxer SU-6, but some folks that have them both say that the DI-20 and the DI-20HE are considerably better.
Look for it on head-fi forum. There are pages about it. 
Its also FPGA programable and it gives you the chance to make it sound better with new firmwares that are launched every few months. 
Audio-gd is a hidden gem in the audiophile world. Incredible performance for the price. 

It seems like you can’t go wrong with the Innuos. I think a bigger question is how much are you committed to the USB format long term as opposed to ethernet/network connections or something like a DCS Network Bridge. It does seem to take a lot of money and processing to get an excellent sound from USB.

Hey fellas, if I had a DAC that sucked then I'd probably buy a reclocker too, as a last resort.;

The Metrum does use asynchronous USB and has a lot of good reports about it. It isn't the latest model and there are obviously better DAC's around. The answer may well be to borrow a Phoenix when I can in the current climate and borrow a better DAC, such as the Chord Qutest. The latter would be half the price of course. Then see which gives me the most benefit.

The main question is how does the Metrum implement their USB. Is there a reason you think you need a reclocker? Noise problems? Sputtering ? If the USB is implemented correctly you should have no reason for a reclocker. If you’re confused research how asynchronous USB works. The DAC clock controls the stream the reason being the clock closest to the DAC chip is better at adjusting the rate. Good DACs also implement good isolation for noise reduction. If the reclocker controlled your stream would be a mess with buffer loading and dropouts unless you’re operating in isynchronous or adaptive mode. The idea behind reclockers is to make you think you have a problem to sell one more box. If there is a problem it’s better to fix it with a competent DAC not by adding something that could end up causing more problems than it purports to fix.

I've been researching reclockers and DAC's and talked to a manufacturer and he opened my eyes about streamers and reclockers. He basically said the problem is noise and clean power. Streamers are computers and are incredibly noisy, the reason reclockers work is you're taking the noisy USB signal your getting from your streamer and it's getting cleaned and filtered in the reclocker. Yes the signal gets reclocked but the difference before and after is really to small for the human ear to really detect. The real difference is the noisy signal being cleansed on the outside of the streamer. So his recommendation was to buy a very good LPS to power the streamer and a external reclocker.

He opened your eyes by suggesting you buy a reclocker. If the DAC is decent it can handle noise from a streamer. What about the line noise from the reclocker to the DAC? 

@grannyring That’s an interesting report on the 3R Mastertime Blackstar. I’ve been using a SOTM EN-to-USB renderer, SOTM USB conditioner, and SOTM-modified D-Link hub, all powered by Hynes SR-7 and synchronized to a 10mhz rubidium clock (and a JCAT Net Femto EN card in the server, which makes a nice improvement.) I’m considering replacing the modified D-Link hub with SOTM’s new bespoke hub. What was your full SOTM setup? I’m pleased with SOTM stuff, but open to improvement.

That's why he suggested a good LPS to reduce the noise. It opened my eyes because the reclocked signal doesn't mean much, it's getting that signal outside of the streamer and getting it filtered by the reclocker that gives the real benefit. 

@dgarretson, I owned the sms-200 Ultra, SMP500 power supply and the Tx-USBultra. I liked it at the time. I like SOTM gear and currently own the SOTM sNH 10G ethernet Switch and several SOTM dCBL-CAT7 ethernet cables. Love with Switch and cables as they really elevated my digital front end. I power the SOTM Switch with a highly modified/upgraded Teradak LPS. I also power my modem with a highly modified/upgraded LPS. I built some nice double shielded star quad DC cables using Duelund stranded and tinned wire. As you know everything matters in digital audio. Every little detail matters as it’s all about removing noise! See my virtual system for more details.

Cascading reclockers/filters with the best one at the end of the chain also improves the sound of our digital front ends. I currently own the Innuos Zen 3 server/streamer and had the SOTM txUSB Ultra on it. I determined it did not give enough sonic improvement and sold it. However the Odeon delivered a nice step up sonically. That is my experience with my system only....

My system is quite resolving and I have been a bit surprised at the sonic gains realized by the pieces mentioned above. My dac is the Mojo Audio Mystique V3 which I upgraded to Evo+ type status. 

I did know that! I am fine with varying opinions and open minded enough to let folks believe what they like.  I just know my extensive experience has informed me differently. 

It comes down to your DAC if it's lousy at noise reduction a reclocker might help if you have a well designed DAC that's good at noise rejection and a good implemented asynchronous USB it's useless. Use your money to get a good DAC instead of a bandaid.

With an Esoteric K-01X-- a very good DAC and USB interface-- I can clearly hear improvements with external USB regeneration, ethernet switches, master clock links, power supplies, and digital cables.       

I’ve tried loads of USB cables and they all sound different. Your money might be better spent on a better USB cable and/or dac.

USB cables matter also. I design and sell my own. My dac is one of the best on the market and also benefits from a reclocker. Not all need, want or even appreciate the sonic improvements gained by a great reclocker and I get that. Just enjoy your music on your terms and decide for yourself how much time, effort and money you want to put into your system and learning. 

What USB Cable are you using?
I worked for Curious Cables in Australia, I am sure there are plenty of reviews online for what they do.

There's this new assumption that nothing of good audio quality comes out of a computer USB port because of the horribly noisy computer innards and operating system thrash. Has that ever been proven or is it a very lucrative marketing claim? All these streamers  and reclockers claim superority to laptops but they're computers and often made of cheaper parts and sold at very high markups.

I'm of two minds: Mind#1) It shouldn't make a difference, and Mind# 2) What do I perceive?  Mind#1) is flawed because "knowing" can change perception and blocks  the consideration of new information, and Mind#2) is flawed because listening intently usually changes perception and expectation bias is a real thing.

So, I have a laptop going to a Denafrips Terminator over USB.  I use a Curious USB cablle because it seemed to make instruments  more 3D.  I purchased a much better laptop for streaming because I was tired of swapping my work laptop in and out of my system. With the better laptop, the soundstage is two feet higher.  Getting spectacular clarity, imaging and musicality.  Cant imagine needing more.

So now Denafrips releases a series of Digital to Digital converters (Iris and Gaia) and Terminator owners claim they are getting significant improvements with the costlier model In the chain.  So, Mind#1) It shouldn't make a difference, and Mind#2) I want to experience it.

It's all quite curious, which makes the hobby intriging and fun.

When I taste an ingredient that tastes better it certainly tastes better to me. That is a real and a true experience for me. No bias, no voodoo, nothing but my experienced reality. When I hear my music library in a way that engages me more deeply and causes me to enjoy my music more, then it is really happening. No need to contemplate my navel on the matter. Time and time again I am drawn into the emotion and performance of the music more deeply. Over and over I am experiencing something real to my senses and person. Yes, the reclocker does this for my system and music. No, I did not eat bad pizza or fool myself. I would rather sell the box and put the money in the bank if the truth be told. My bias is on the frugal side and being open minded and have sold +1 pieces in the past that did not deliver. Goodness this stuff is simple folks and stop trying to complicate it. If it looks good to you, then it does! If it tastes good to you, then it does! If the aroma is pleasing to you, then it is!

This site used to be about detailing our shared experience with a piece of gear and learning from that. 

Time to listen to more music!

I use Grannyrings USB cables 2 of them one from my Innuos Zenith 3 to a Innuos Phoenix out to my overpriced lousy underperforming dac ,.LOL ,..

Comments above from people that have not actually listened to any type of reclocker converter device be it for i2s , USB or what have you is baffling to say the least and comical at the same time .,..

I think expensive addons like the Phoenix, need a careful audition, more than a DAC or phono stage say. Presumably you were convinced by a trial in your system, to keep the Phoenix. That is what I'll have to do, when it is possible. I live in the UK and we seem to be more cautious about Covid, than some folks in the US at the moment, no names.

David I found the Phoenix an easy decision to purchase after a short listen just before the parade of experts finally decided what was coming out of China by the plane load was and is a serious threat .

As stated above, if your USB DAC is async, "reclocking" the signal is a meaningless function. It will literally do nothing at least w.r.t. data transfer.  sjsfive0 seemed to get good and honest data from a manufacturer who said the same thing. The reclocking function is meaningless. On the other hand, cleaning up electrical noise could certainly be a benefit. Is $3,000 a suitable price for doing that?  Seems a bit "rich" for the function and could be done for considerably less money, but if you trial it and it helps, what is your time worth?  It may be worth researching and investing in a simpler device but as effective device and putting that money elsewhere into the system.

Reclocking is meaningless, but galvanic isolation is not.

I just found out to my deep chagrin that the Mytek Brooklyn I have is NOT galvanically isolated from the USB input.  I can't believe DACs these days don't automatically include this.

A good reclocker certainly made an improvement in my system. Even though the digital chain was not bad to begin with. Who cares what the naysayers and theorists say. The difference was obvious with much improved sound. More solid image and soundstage, better vocal and instrument separation, more detail, darker background  etc. Everything they say.

@erik_squires, I would not expect galvanic isolation in a low end DAC. There is a definite cost in doing it, especially if the DAC is USB powered. If externally powered, there is less justification, but it is still there, especially if you want to support USB2.0 data rates.

If you are powering off a laptop, one quick test is to unplug the power cord and run off batteries. In some cases this can significantly reduce noise. With the power cord connected, there is a high frequency noise path. It is assumed it is the noisy USB supply that is the issue, but as likely it is noise on the AC supply transmitted through the USB ground connection. Sometimes pulling the ground pin on the AC works, sometimes it does not. Relatively low cost ($200) medical grade isolation transformers work well. They are designed for low leakage, hence have shield windings.

Something like this: https://assets.tripplite.com/product-pdfs/en/is250hg.pdf

@electroslacker said:

So now Denafrips releases a series of Digital to Digital converters (Iris and Gaia) and Terminator owners claim they are getting significant improvements with the costlier model In the chain.

Where have you heard/read this? I haven't been able to find any first-hand comments on the Gaia. 

Thanks,
Jay

Jay,

There's a discussion in headfi.org.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new-denafrips-ddc-iris-and-gaia.931695/


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Robertdid your opinion is completely meaningless given the fact you have not taken the time to listen to a Phoenix or even bother to find out exactly what the Phoenix actually is.

And the rest of you guys with your petty complaints whom think they have some technical design prowess your looking pretty foolish right now .

If USB noise is the problem, perhaps the USB Disruptor or Core Power USBe-Perfect is all you need.

Here's a positive review of the latter.  Seemed expensive, but I see it's on sale.

https://www.audiopursuit.com/2020/05/core-power-technologies-av-usbe-perfect.html

Still think my naked laptop USB to Termy sounds amazing but interested in what others experience.

@in_shore, I have not jumped off a 10 story building yet either, but based on laws of physics, general knowledge of what the human body can withstand, and similar things happening to other people, I know with a great deal of certainty it will kill me.

Being very knowledgeable about electronics, DACs, and async USB DACs, I know, without a doubt, that the DAC will generate its own clock completely independent of the incoming data stream. That is how they work.  A simple reclocking of the USB not fix any issues with the output clock, but if you believe that is the case, a highly fixed clock that is not synchronous with the output clock is just as likely to create a larger fixed harmonic on the output as it is to fix anything. If the input clock is random, at least clock induced noise would be random, i.e. harder to hear, than a highly fixed/periodic one.

On the other hand EMI coupled via the ground connection and data connections, and the power connection if used in any way, can absolutely play havoc with the stable operation of that output clock if the DAC is not well designed and the ops DAC is not very high end. That noise could also couple into sensitive analog circuitry.

Last, I stated quite clearly, that sure, try it out. The power filtering could quite possibly improve the overall sound and the op may be happy with the result.  However, for that much money, it would make far more sense to invest in a significantly upgraded, new DAC with better isolation of the USB from sensitive circuitry.

Robertdid , there’s an interview with Innuos design principle by John Darko , smart dude . What you just said is laughable, I find guys like you nothing more then a joke with your suggestions for others what is too expensive , how things should actually work so on and so forth and finally I distinctly heard a jump in performance using a MSB dac maybe I should of used a Denafrips Lol ..

I have to agree with @roberttdid on this. Not that you should necessarily replace your DAC if you like it, but that reclocking the USB isn't, by itself, going to make a difference if the DAC is using an asynchronous USB input with buffering. The DAC is not deriving any timing signal from the USB, so reclocking isn't going to do anything. 

On the other hand, if you are using a good quality digital-to-digital converter and using an interface other than USB between that device and your DAC, then the quality of the timing will make a big difference, and it's quite possible that such a device could have a better (even much better) clock than the DAC that it is feeding. 

It's also quite possible, as @roberttdid stated, that a digital-to-digital converter/reclocker could be reducing noise on the USB connection that is affecting the DAC's SQ. Whether using such a device for this purpose is a better investment than replacing the DAC with one that can better reject this noise directly is a decision that each listener will have to make for themselves. 

I also believe that there are some spectacular sounding DACs that don't necessarily have the best USB implementations. USB technology has evolved much more significantly in the past five years or so  than other aspects of DAC design. There are very likely some state-of-the-art DACs from five or ten years ago that will have less than optimal USB interfaces that could easily benefit from some external help for less than the cost of replacement with a more recent implementation with an updated USB implementation.

@electroslacker - Thanks for the link.

@in_shore, perhaps one day it will dawn on you that you are doing nothing but regurgitating what others have said, while clearly not even understand what I have said. I have seen many so-called "smart dudes" spout absolute nonsense in the guise of marketing it is laughable. I will repeat it a third time since you seem to be puffing your chest or something and not paying attention. The phoenix may improve the sound of the ops DAC. As the ops DAC is asynchronous (and we really hope is running in that mode with the appropriate drivers), it won’t be improving the sound from reclocking the USB.

Guys like me actually design this stuff. We know when other guys like us are telling tall tales.

in_shore  464 posts

07-09-2020 9:17pm

Robertdid , there’s an interview with Innuos design principle by John Darko , smart dude . What you just said is laughable, I find guys like you nothing more then a joke with your suggestions for others what is too expensive , how things should actually work so on and so forth and finally I distinctly heard a jump in performance using a MSB dac maybe I should of used a Denafrips Lol ..

My take is Ideon 3R Master Time.