Which area of components to spend the most $ on? Boy I was wrong all my life!
I have been an audio junkie for about 25 years. All those years, I have read plenty of discussion posts and recommendations where to spend the most money on. The majority, even the experts recommend to spend the most money on speakers. Up to as high as 60% of the total budget.Example: CEO of PS Audio-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYwL7vPkPhg I believed this all my life. Today, my eyes are opened. My total budget is about $15K.Before today, my system was:Speakers-Revel F36 Concerta 2 (For the money, this is the best speakers I’ve heard. I like it more than my previous Dynaudio Contour 30)Integrated Amp-Marantz PM-10 (Class D, balanced, 400wpc at 4ohms)CD Player-Oppo UDP 205 & Marantz CD 6005 (Some of the best in class)Line conditioner-Furman Elite PFi 15Cables-Kimber 8TC Speaker Cables (Sorry, not a cable nut. I’d rather spend money elsewhere) I upgraded my front end CD player to... Marantz SA-11S3. I was BLOWN away! This is the greatest upgrade I have ever heard in my life. For 25 years, I was taught to spend the most in speakers. Sorry! It’s the FRONT END! The best source you can afford. The purity transcends down the river. I am blown away by the sheer improvement in detail, clarity, depth, the air around the instruments. My philosophy has changed.
At the end, it always comes down to whatever ever sounds good to the listener. To use an orchestral recording as an example, have you ever really thought about how much "interference" there actually is between the original sound of the orchestra and what eventually reaches your ears from your speakers?
all good points (mostly) but IMO it's speakers and the environment in which they play that matter most. I laughed when the Op said he was blown away buy his new Marantz disc player, the only way that player could 'blow away' the Oppo 205 is if there was something wrong with the Oppo .......
"The majority, even the experts recommend to spend the most money on speakers."
Experts? Oh, you mean the people who are pushing for you to buy their product, or paid to write good reviews? Take everything they say with a pinch of salt.
Synergy is everything. Ignore snobs and people who are obesssed with a certain brand. Try to get recommendations from unbiased people on what they’ve found works well together. Save money and buy inexpensive cabling and interconnects. That’s the biggest snake-oil racket in the whole industry.
"Snake Oil?" Really? Last year I priced out Nordost Odin cabling for my stereo system (which I think included a couple of their power cords) and it came to $137,000. I thought that was very reasonable but, for me, a bit much so stuck with my MonoPrice and Kimber Kables (which I got free).
It's been a 40 year voyage
into audio for me, and your right, when I stepped up to a high-end modified
deck, and got some sot after NOS tubes for it, the differences in the entire system
were profound. Transparency, timbre, deeper back stage, the music was cleaner.
This was to a greater extent
experienced
when multiple instruments were playing simultaneous. The more complex the music, the
noticeable differences were again heightened.
At the time I was using
an M400 Carver cube amplifier, and it was fine, but I knew there were more esoteric amplifiers to be found. (I had owned a Classe' Audio
DR-25 before the Carver). After living with the Carver for 20 years I went out and bought a pair of Classe'
Audio DR-9's. Well blow me over with a feather, the sound stage was massive.
Subsequently I sold off one of the DR-9's ... they sound better in stereo than
in mono.
I toyed with various
speakers, using a pair of Roger Sound Lab, Elan's (modified), as a reference. They're
a passive radiator design with a beautiful silk dome tweeter. For the money
(including mods), they were a great bang for the buck (& could be made to
sound incrementally better), but I've been at this game awhile and know what a
great speaker can sound like. So better speaker were the next step.
I had some Paradigm's, got a
hold of a pair of Meadowlark Huron Hot Rods, and finally settled on a pair of
946 Focal Electra's. New, these speakers retailed for approx $8,500
dollars. Lets be clear, the Focals are worlds apart from the RSL Elan's, but are
the differences as profound as it was with the Cd upgrade, or the amp upgrade?
In a word, no. Taking into consideration that the price difference between the
Elan's and the 946's is about $6000-$6500 dollars, or 71%.
Now the difference in the
two decks was $800, to $2100 (including the mods and the tubes), or 62%.
Comparing the data .... I'd
say your Front End theory is pretty safe.
Obviously there's more to a
system than these simple examples, but IMHO the concept of building a system
that you like to live with (or aspire to move up to), should be built around
your source. That's the place to begin. Why?
People move, over the years the size and shape
of your sound rooms will change. Speakers should suit your room, so when you
change your room, chances are you'll need to change your speakers. Your source
remains the same.
Interesting thread. In my experience, you can always make improvements on the front end of the system--the line or phono level sources, and yes, even interconnects sometimes--and hear those improvements pretty clearly on whatever speakers you have. But the reverse is not always true.
Once the low level signal stuff is tight, anything you improve on the speaker/high-level signal end may well result in dramatic, easily heard improvements.
And regarding digital, I've been unhappy in various ways w/digital since the '80s, and only recently really got happier with it, thanks to multibit digital DACs, specifically NOS (non-oversampling) multibit. This has been a real game-changer, to the point that I no longer even think about my digital source (just enjoy it).
At my price point where is it most difficult to find good value for money? How will it work in my home?
I don't think there is any way of saying "allocate x% to source, speakers, amplification, preamp" These things are all going to swap around between a $1000 system and a $100,000 system. How much money does one need to spend on a given component to make it not the weakest link in the chain.
I still think room acoustics are the biggest most un addressed issue in hifi because it's so multifactorial and there's no easy way to talk about it like comparisons of x vs y amplifier.
My system is a joke compared to other systems here, for sure, but I have implemented swarm subwoofers because I couldn't get the bass right in the actual living room I listen in here in the real world. We're listening to a lot of folk and folktronica, this isn't the Weeknd or Lil Wayne but I had to spend my money on subs.
I also couldn't position floor standing speakers or large boxes in a way that would get anything close to a good listening triangle. I liked big speaker sound but had to wind up with bookshelves to get them in the right space relative to where we listen.
If we listened in some ideal purpose constructed listening room with bass traps three layers of sheetrock and built in consultation with an audio engineer maybe we could say spend money on x, y and z in that order, but then again if we had that room the largest expense would almost surely be the room itself.
I think, in some ways, a big question is what to spend the least on. That's probably on working out your listening space and finding music and time to enjoy it with people you love. Spending the least money doesn't mean the least attention. The real "front end" is less fussing and more enjoyment.
This is a great thread, thanks OP! It seems like every time I upgrade a component I perceive a meaningful difference (good or bad!). In a haphazard way (which is fun, it’s a hobby after all!) I get a better overall system, through trial and error and by focusing on pieces recommended by reviewers, these forums, and design engineers I admire (such as Nelson Pass, John DeVore, Cees at Metrum Acoustics). Synergy, as said above, is key, but only discovered by trying so many permutations! And how do you know you’ve finally arrived?!
Point is that in doing it this way, the % spent on each category is in constant flux so for fun I calculated what it is at this moment. I buy mostly but not always used gear which can skew it quite a bit (for example I got a great deal on a wyred4sound stp-se stage 2 upgraded preamp for a 3rd of its new retail), so I calculated it both ways based on new price as well as what I paid:
New pricing: speakers-37%, amplification-39%, source-19%, cables-5%
Used pricing: speakers-29%, amplification-34%, source-29%, cables-8%
Accounting for used pricing brings the percentages closer to parity, not sure if that is interesting or not, but there it is!
Sources do matter, but I still believe that 60% should be spent on speakers.
I would prefer a set of high-end speakers fed by a cheap phonograph or junk CD player over a very expensive high end source unit fed into lousy, cheap speakers.
Even the cheapest DA converters can sound good on fine speakers. A $200 Audioquest DragonFly Red fed by a $30 Computer CD-Rom on a computer can crush some very high-end transports. Moving up higher to a Pro-Ject or Mytek DAC can yield even better results, still well below the cost of a set of high quality speakers, thus emphasizing my point that the bulk of one’s budget needs to be spent on speakers.
Hooking up the speakers with cheap lamp cord will also yield outstanding results.
The above examples are real world results, not smoke, mirrors and snake oil.
Speakers are critical since they create by far the most distortion up to 5% or more depending. On volume, in your case you bought a noticably better piece of electronics , it isnot the speaker spending more was. A bad idea . In your. Case it’s you are limited in $$ monies to spend , you. Could still make great strides in sonic improvement if you had say another $3k to buy something more. Expensive ,better parts quality. Myself have Everything modified ,and being frugal on wire quality is For sure holding back your system . Kimber8 tc is Avery good start,average cable middle grade cable you can go much better .i myself make a far better cable then cables 5x better minimum then. My cost. cables have a Huge markup . For example I went toVH Audio small gage solid Teflon Litz -6-9s ,pure Copper wire around $25a foot, cotton insulator core, you have to unstrand cut and terminate it . I did speaker cables, interconnects,speakers and electronics , a Night and Day improvement , also inside your Revel speakers the Xover parts are not even average ,I owned several of their speakers Rebuild the Xover with Qualty parts maybe $1k your speakers will be drastically improved for a $2-3k investment you get at least 4-5x more in quality that you would have spent if buying commercially . I owned a Audio store less then $25 % actually goes into the product ,meaning unless you are spending well over $5-10 k on each piece of gear inside decent but average quality parts. That is why Dan Modwright was so successful rebuilding and putting highquality parts in key area. everything is built toa price point , I sold several $$ brands well. Known and shocked at the level of capacitors resistors,wiring and power supplies used. Most people have no idea for they don’t look inside. Keep this in mind ,if you or a friend is handy and can solder you can build thingssuch as cables in a day . Theselitz speaker cables ispent maybe $500 with connectors best hands down several of my friends Big name $2k + cables ,without all the fancy jackets I saved over $1500 alone just in speaker cables and having this wire quality throughout the whole system creates a system Synergy that brings it to another level in musical integrity. sometimes it’s the little things that do count , even replacing the cheap steel fuses which are a ahuge bottle neck justlook up the metal resistance index copper,and silver 5x more conductive ,far less resistance meaning much lower distortion at each fuse junction,after a 75-100 hr runin. These are all facts just read themsny reviews and we did many blind tested comparisons . i am just telling the facts ,it’s your money, why give it away if you can dotings on your own . I even build my Zobel networks for all the high frequency noiseover 10khz for littlemoney a noticable speaker enhancement, Everythung counts , and clean your connectors st least 1x a year on everything I use 99% Isopropyl alcohol ,Craig good foam swabs and what I feel the best enhancement ,long term protectant Stabilant -22 which protects over 12 yerars if not disturbed has won a ton of awards even great on a Vacuum tubepins it is a super conductor that is not conductive until a charge is applied ,not like a messyconductive Silver Paste thst has a short life.
For low budget audiophiles like this none-too-well-heeled orchestral musician, I only spend my big bucks on MC cartridges and a good preamp (right now, Benz Micro Wood SL and Lukaschek PP1 MC preamp). A well-maintained Thorens with these components sounds very good. Only the slightest hint of IGD, on well loved records. A fancy valve amp with some of those newly-introduced models of tubes would be nice, but I have a mortgage to pay in an expensive town, so vintage tube and SS amps it is, for me. FRONT END ALL THE WAY, BABY!
Have you not had good speakers to begin with your new CD player might not have blown you away now. With mediocre speakers it almost doesn’t matter what you feed it.
People suggests going heavy on speakers as a percentage of the INITIAL budget. Over time of course it makes sense to bring the rest of system up to par.
Further, I’d also recommend speakers that are easy to drive to keep amplifier issues to a minimum so that You can spend time improving the front end, especially the preamp.
Sometimes I think that if given the financial resources I would by an all-in-one system. Then all pieces should be suitable together. Active speakers have amps that should be selected to work with the drivers, any dac inside should be good enough to do the system justice.
Of course you give up changing components but it might be nice to just buy it all at once.
A good discussion! Audio systems are just that - systems where every component affects the end result. The most important part to spend money on is the weakest link. Finding this can be hard, I once changed my speakers and source but only fixed the issue I had when I upgraded my amp (which I thought was my best component due to brand name). If I had started with the amp I would have avoided some unnecessary churn.
The rule of thumb about spending the most money on speakers goes back to a time when good speakers were hard to find and expensive. Relative prices have shifted which allows more to be spent on other parts of the system.
Don’t forget cables and power cables are all part of the chain. I also got a big improvement from adding isolation feet to my equipment. As an early poster said, the more the system improves, the more noticeable the benefits of additional upgrades. That’s why very high end systems have very expensive cables- because these things start having a big impact as more nuances are revealed. That’s where the black hole comes from!
"The majority, even the experts recommend to spend the most money on speakers."
Experts? Oh, you mean the people who are pushing for you to buy their product, or paid to write good reviews? Take everything they say with a pinch of salt.
Synergy is everything. Ignore snobs and people who are obesssed with a certain brand. Try to get recommendations from unbiased people on what they’ve found works well together. Save money and buy inexpensive cabling and interconnects. That’s the biggest snake-oil racket in the whole industry. Mogami and Belden all the way, well built and sound good. You need nothing more.
@elizabeth Your system math will be out of whack, your speakers one of the best values in all of the high end... and have been since the company was founded...,
Ferrari lying wrecked in the trees over the armco... wet pavement... driver ( Italian) having a cigarette while waiting for the wrecker.. caption in Italian
Always start at the front end and you will be rewarded greatly ; but eventually you'll want to fine tune the system to what your ears say it to be. I suppose my priorities with the ear thing may be changing since I'm approaching 65.
audiotroy1,424 postsThe OP just discovered that a system is dependent on the quality of all of its components.
I agree. As an aside I consider the best reviewer to be the lone audiophile. This is because he is intimately aware of his own system. A small change is noticeable, something that others probably would not hear. A large change and ... well, veils get lifted.
There's great bang for the buck at every investment level because audio and video electronics have consistently delivered more value over time. Today, it's pretty hard to buy a crappy system at the $15k total level if you read reviews and listen. Similarly, even the worst car you can buy today is way more reliable, durable, efficient and enjoyable to drive than what we drove in the 1960's. The old rules of percentage allocation for components of a stereo system no longer strictly apply. I like to think of putting together a system in terms of my experience for years buying expensive Italian suits that were never altered correctly. Today I can buy a cheap name brand designer suit made in China and take it to a master Italian tailor and that alone will make it look better than a poorly fitted and tailored expensive Italian suit. I think if you buy with a philosophy like that you can really put together a wonderful and enjoyable listening experience.
My opinion the source has made the biggest improvement in my experience. To me the source provides the overall sound quality, soundstage, dynamics micro/macro, separation of vocals and instruments, placement, dimension and most important to me is the tone of the instruments. Other components contribute to this sure. For example, I love to hear a piano and the decay of the notes. To me the right source provides this which allows one to hear the "wood" of the piano and the size of the strings the hammer is touching. Some components are just too fast and to me that sounds like a kind of cheap toy piano. Very hard to explain until you hear it. If that is not correct to my ears, then to me nothing in the system can compensate for that. Also micro to macro back to micro dynamics, without that you don't really hear the emotion in the voice or string instruments. And then there is a black background. At the last CAF one reviewer said in his review of a digital product that it was eerie quiet. So instruments come out of space and dimension.
Well that is all I have to say on this subject. Happy Listening to all!
The first important component is your ears and brain. Most people don’t get regular hearing tests and as such don’t correct hearing deficiencies. Also there is taste, some like overblown bass others clinical sound. You hear what you want to hear and posts on Audiogon prove that....
When people first approach this hobby they tend to learn and accept it as a considerable number of rules...with maybe a few exceptions. After they've been at it a few decades they tend to accept it as a considerable number of exceptions...with maybe a few rules.
30% source analog / Digital 30% electronics30% speakers10% cablesI auditioned speakers. What I liked, I decided on and asked how much?Took that number and multiplied by 3 and auditioned the rest. I was learning as I listened in the sound room and discovered my preferences in sound trying to balance out what I heard at concerts taking into account my preferred seating placement. Not up close to the stage nor too bright in the equipment. I like to hear the auditorium as well the room being a part of the auditory event.Taking all the variables into account I still enjoy what I'm hearing. I get lost in the emotional aspects of the music. My favorite songs still make me feel good as I did when I was younger. I don't get bored or feel that my system is getting stale. I still go to concerts and try to refresh my hearing memory and when I get home the first thing I is put on the event's music.
Great discussion overall. It's kind of like junk in junk out. Surprised you would ever waste your money on a Marantz. That's certainly not audiophile quality.
Unless
you have an endless supply of money, building a system is a process based on
ones listening preference and ears. I purchased a couple amps before I ended up
with the one that fits me. Same with the CD player, turntable and speakers. I
worked on my cables & conditioning from there. It’s been a fun ride and I
continue to make tweaks here and there, albeit it minor.
Case in point...I was looking for a bit more clarity and presence from my system , but I was not going down the rabbit hole again for the 100th time! Been burned big time on some of my costlier cable solutions in the past, so this time I set my sites on value, quality and good design. I looked around quite a bit and came across the new Audioquest Water XLR Interconnects. Based on some reviews they sounded like what I needed. Coincidentally, there was a new pair for sale on Agon for just over $300....list is like $549 or more depending on length of course. I’m running them in now and have found them to be amazingly full, warm and clear with great dynamic swing. Highs sound cleaner without loosing the bottom end weight of my MIT’s. Midrange is a bit livelier and expressive as well. A really world class Interconnect for a steal, even at list price. I’ve had $12k interconnects that were honestly not any better, and lots of $4k - $6k offerings that were worse!
In some sense, looking at this issue from a pure monetary standpoint or percentages, can be misleading. There are plenty of overpriced components and ancillaries that can throw off the margins quite a bit. Quality can be found at various price points, while finding the right synergy between components and the environment will always be the most elusive part of this pastime!
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