Missing in the chain below is a preamp - I use the DAC to control volume. This is my only source and will be for some time. What could I gain by adding a preamp?
I have Thiel CS 2.3s driven by a BAT VK-55, sourced by PS Audio PW DAC, with bridge II, mostly tidal. The DAC serves as a preamp in terms of volume control. Mostly Audioquest cables, amp power cord is Cardas Clear m, all fed by PS Audio upc-200.
I am am hoping to improve the highs, which sometimes sound smeared, too much sibilance; would like more air and clarity. Loud rock sounds flatter, less dynamic than I’d like. I am not willing to give up the deep detailed and beautifully resonant mids. Willing to spend up to $3000, used is ok. Totally balanced is a must. Not currently willing to entertain the idea of different speakers - my goal is to make the 2.3s sound as good as reasonably possible before moving on to other speakers. It’s easy to find a really good preamp in this price range, so much so I am almost paralyzed by the choices. Aesthetix , Ayre, ARC, several BAT, Parasound and more all have apparently excellent models in my price range. Patience would put Atma-sphere and PS Audio within reach. Which is best for my situation? There’s no way to audition all of these, how could I avoid getting on a preamp merry-go-round? Or should I spend my money elsewhere?
There's a one-owner PS Audio 4.6 preamp for sale now on EBay. $395.95 and free-shipping from PA. Seller is "buy-wrightjtt". This is an excellent sounding preamp, equal to units costing thousands! I have owned two of its predecessor - the model IV. A giant-killer, for sure! Why waste thousands? The PS 4.6 is not balanced, but you can use adapters.
Maybe the PS 4.6 would be more appealing if the price was $3995! Don't be fooled by the belief that "if it costs more it must be better"! That is a rabbit hole that too many have fallen into!
The problem with volume on the DAC itself is that you're shortening word length. This is how the volume is controlled digitally.
My suggestion is to do what I did recently and try a PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC that use a proprietary means to control gain on the preamp to control the volume of both and analog sections. I keeping it as it greatly improved everything I've thrown at it. You can try it for 30 days. Made in Boulder, CO.
A DAC using a digital volume control will result in a worse SNR, which could effect dynamics. An analog pre-amp will keep the noise floor the same regardless of volume.
If just looking for an analog preamp, you don’t need to spend a lot.
Thanks for the insight on why volume control from the DAC causes a weakness in the system. Eventually I want to upgrade the PWD to the DSD, so that makes the stellar gain fell a non starter, unfortunately. I will check out the 4.6 pre by ps audio, but I really want to stick with balanced, and so far I have not had much like finding a low cost totally balanced pre. Schiit Freya?
Perfect, you have the choice of passive, tube, or solid state. And it has everything you need. Still going direct without "bit stripping" is the most transparent/dynamic way of getting the source to the poweramp/s. Some people just don't like the sound of their source so they prefer to color it with a preamp.
Count me in the crowd that likes to color the sound. I've had the PS Audio Directstream, Bricasti M1, Jeff Rowland Aeris, and Chord Dave. I tried all of them directly into my amp and preferred the sound with a preamp in every single case.
Nice recommendation for a Schiit Freya. Will try a such. To get into the tube sound and still be able to switch to a probably more neutral passive volume control. For your sound it may be a good idea to add some room compensation to your system like antimode 2.0 or similar. Cheaper than new speakers or a new room and can give very good results for your bass control and dynamics (from a flatter freq. curve).
I'd say be patient and get a Atma-Sphere MP-3. Very accommodating to for rolling tubes - you can tailor your sound to anything you like. You might have to stretch your budget a wee bit for a used one, but you'd be happy if you did.
"Count me in the crowd that likes to color the sound."
Ditto but I disagree with the general premise that direct even without bit stripping is the way to get the most "transparent and dynamic" way to get the source to the power amp. The outcome is completely system/component dependent. Also, in most DACs with a (digital) volume control, the bit stripping typically occurs at very low listening levels.
Well the right preamplifier should increase the size of the sound stage making it more expansive creating a bigger sound. deHavilland uses big tubes in their preamplifiers which do just that. Many tube pre's use smaller little tubes, partially so they can put a cage over the top for cosmetic reasons. They will customize the pre so it will match the input levels for peak performance. Take a look.
Could you bring your DAC over to a friend who has a preamp, to see if running your DAC at full volume eliminates the issues you hear at home, but running it below full volume adds it back in? That seems like a reasonable way to test if the volume control is having an impact on the sound quality.
Different preamps will have different impacts on the sound character when added to an existing audio chain.
I was in a similar situation last year, running the PS Audio Directstream DAC directly into my power amp. It sounded good but not as good as I wished it did. So I swallowed hard and bought their BHK signature preamp. Sound is much improved, in just the ways you seem to be looking for. I was able to get one for significantly less than list price from Upscale Audio -- pretty close to the price for a used one and to the top of your budget range. You might give them a call and see what they are willing to do. (On the other hand I am not in a position to say that this current model sounds drastically better than the used one you can get for a tenth the price. Haven't heard the 4.6. Or the Schiit)
I too follow a "no preamp" preamp approach. The issues you are having are commonly talked about on the forums. I have come across the Townshend Allegri+ variable audio transformer. Its the best volume control I have found. Its totally natural, adds no coloration and has incredible resolution (Using Apogee Scintilla Ribbons). Could not believe it when I went from an external Naim dac to the dac in my Naim NDX streamer with the Allegri+. Soundstage much better, timber around each instrument, soundstage extends past the speakers on some music, sound is very dynamic. I could not be happier. The Allegri+ is in your stated budget. I am going to try a single channel version of the same--with one input and one output, and no internal connections--with constrained layer damping. Single purpose device with no compromises and has remote volume. These devices inherently address the impedance match issue which is the root of most of the problems with passive approach.
nice tube preamp mated to SS amp is the way I would go .... i would agree with this ..... I actually have croft 25r (tube rolled with NOS) which is a very sweet hybrid pre amp and way under budget going into ATC P1 / Harbeth
it isn’t balanced however but my cable run is only 40cm.
of all the setups over the years this mix of valve early on and then tranny power has the control, dynamism and smoothness I love. 2 years on I still tap along to music thinking WTF every few songs .... in a good way
Several of you are claiming that digital volume controls are inferior to non-digital controls. Two or three days ago, I watched a video by Paul McGowan of PS Audio saying just the opposite. Yes, in the early days of digital, at lower volumes, the digital controls sacrificed word length at lower volumes, as they were controlled by one, or in a few cases, two 16 bit chips. But, according to Paul, todays controls are extremely linear. He also explained how even the best non-linear controls increase noise levels at lower volumes, and can not compete with today's digital controls. He further explains that that is why very few designers today use anything but digital controls. You can believe what you want, I'm just throwing in what one industry biggie thinks on the subject as food for thought.
I use blown up retro nads as pre-amps. Have a 3225 and 3240..they sound amazing! better than my Harman avr. remove the outputs, main amp fuses and blown components.remove the link from pre out to power amp and you have a nad preamp for near nothing when you look at todays prices, most with phono.most of todays preamps which I can afford have 3 or 4 8 pin op amps.have a look at the nad preamp....its a work of art going back to the 3020 which defined stereo.
Superphon were very musical and one of the best values for the money ever made .They are very rare today and anyone you might find would need to be re-capped .
Benchmark Media had claimed the best connection was their DAC using their built-in hybrid gain control (HGC) direct to amp. I agree that it sounds great, but they just announced a $2500 dedicated linestage for their DACs, so that implies there is a role for separate linestages but theirs is a very sophisticated passive. Curious to hear the difference. I'm not convinced an active linestage does anything needed, but might create a sound that sounds more dynamic or sparkly than straight wire with attenuation.
so that implies there is a role for separate linestages but theirs is a very sophisticated passive. Curious to hear the difference. I’m not convinced an active linestage does anything needed, but might create a sound that sounds more dynamic
Could only sound more dynamic if the passive was hobbled with a serious impedance mismatch. As an active line stage cannot in any way improve the dynamics of the source unless it has a dynamic range ex-pander circuit in it, and they sound rubbish.
I owned a pair of 2.3's some years back and I think your problem is the VK-55. I had a pair of modified Threshold T-50's (converted to mono blocks). They were owned by a former employee at Threshold where they did the modification and my 2.3's came to life. High current solid state is the way to go w/2.3's. I was using is w/a Audio Research SP-16.
Agree that high power ss amps are the standard choice for Thiels in general, and the 2.3s impedance curve does NOT make them an exception. However, the BAT VK-55 sounds much better than my previous amp (Krell KAV 300-iL, 200 wpc at 8 ohm, doubling down to 4 ohm), maybe it's just the sound of tubes that I am enjoying? BAT literature suggests this amp should be capable of handling challenging loads - there's even a 2 ohm tap - that being said, I know I can do better amp wise. But to keep the sound of tubes and switch to high current ss amp means I need a tube pre-amp, and now I am right back where I started!?!
I'm afraid a real change in sound or dynamics demands other speakers. All the others are just adjustments to the existing sound. Thiel is a really fine speaker and I owe them a lot (still got several) but they are not the last word in anything. YMHO.
Recently I was not pleased w/my sound. Same problem music was flat at the top end. Just lacked dynamics sound was flat. My amp in my case wasn't the problem. A Bryston 2.5 SST2. It was the tube preamp. A CJ ET3 SE. Sold it for a Luxman CL 38 U-SE more on the neutral side and the whole system just kicked in. In your case maybe a Bryston preamp might be the ticket. I think an all BAT system will really kill the top end of your 2.3's. All BAT to much warmth.
I’m not convinced an active linestage does anything needed, but might create a sound that sounds more dynamic
Could only sound more dynamic if the passive was hobbled with a serious impedance mismatch. As an active line stage cannot in any way improve the dynamics of the source.
George, I did say "create a sound that sounds more dynamic" not that it technically is. A little fatter bass often conveys increased dynamics. Passives seem more constrained in " creating a sound" but I'm interested in auditioning the Benchmark unit to see what they achieved with the best passive components.
To the OP, I will chime in....." Loud rock sounds flatter, less dynamic than I’d like ". Loud rock is not Thiel territory, and, with a tube amp ? Not to sound crude, but you have it all wrong. I am also a convert to passive, as I no longer want to "color " my recordings or hear less " detail and information " from my recordings with an extra gain stage or 2 that I do not need. I am the happy owner of a Luminous Audio Axiom II Walker mod unit, and have never been more pleased with what I am hearing from my recordings. Elizabeth.....3 separate gain stages ( Threshold to CJ to Bryston ). Really ? Enjoy ! MrD.
elizabeth, are you running your source signal through three different linestage preamps daisy chained and at the same time or I’m reading it wrong? Highly unusual setup.
But, according to Paul, todays controls are extremely linear. He also
explained how even the best non-linear controls increase noise levels at
lower volumes, and can not compete with today's digital controls.
I can safely challenge the idea that analog controls are noisier than digital at low volume levels. The statement is false. So much depends on execution- a general statement like that just can't hold water. Preamps serve 4 functions: 1) control volume2) select the source3) provide any needed gain4) control the interconnect cable to the amplifier The OP does not need 2 and 3, but 1 is essential and 4 is the least understood. The problem is complicated by the fact that a balanced system is mandatory. FWIW there are no passive volume controls that support the balanced standard, which is there to prevent the interconnect cable from having an artifact (the 'sound' of the cable). For that matter there are not that many active line stages that support the standard (also known as AES48, the Audio Engineering Society file 48). But there are a few, and if a balanced system is thus set up correctly, then the interconnect cable will not influence the sound.
Well, I am not going to chain together three pre-amps, at least not any time soon, but I do appreciate all the ideas!
elizabeth - I read with interest your thread titled "how do you know which component to upgrade" and found it very insightful, except for the fact that it ultimately didn't answer my question, not that I really expected it to :). But I am happily following your advice so far, as left for me on a similar post, kind of a false start to this one.
atmasphere - I am dedicated to keeping all things balanced.
mrdecibel - 85% of my listening, and nearly all of my critical listening, is a mix of Americana (Tidal's nomenclature, aka folk, alt-country, chamber pop, laurel canyon pop, jazz pop, non pop radio pop, alt/indy, some but not all rock-n-roll, etc) as well as jazz and classical, generally at 75-85 dBs. To my inexperienced ears, my system sounds pretty darn good for this type of music in my room. It just bugs me that when I want to rock out, the sound is not as enjoyable. Ditto the treble.
gosta - I love the Theils - for now. Speaker upgrade is well out over the horizon, but certainly out there, albeit way out in the future (2020 maybe?). My goal for now is to make the 2.3s sound as good as possible, maybe even upgrade the crossovers, before moving on.
all - sounds like there possibilities both ways, my conclusion so far is that ultimately what I am looking for COULD be achieved without a preamp, AND it's also likely that the RIGHT pre would also make me very happy. If the right pre is right to me because it colors the sound a certain way, perhaps I can get there following another path?
So far I have improved isolation of the amp (moderate improvement) and plugged it right into the wall outlet (also a moderate improvement). Next up is a Furutech wall outlet (Rhodium plating, "Rhodium especially excels in the high frequencies which are detailed and clear. Overall rhodium yields a super responsive, delicate, expressive and neutral sound…" - we'll see. Then I think I will try some NOS 6SN7s, old Russian tubes from Upscale, in place of the current Sylvania Chrome Domes. Upgrading the source to a PS Audio DSD is the next big component improvement. After that, speaker isolation? And then, maybe, the Schitt Freya, because it is balanced, gives me three modes of operation to play with including passive, (four if you count the Octal LISST option) but even more importantly, it can be returned (it will be a tough 15 days of burn-in and listening, but if I plan ahead, I think I am up to the task). And of course, room treatment will continue. Or maybe I will come across what could be the perfect pre-amp at a price that not buying would be very regretful, who knows, it could happen!
Just discovered. Elac Alchemy DDP-1. From their new digital serie. May be of interest. Combine with streamer DMP-1. Has AES output which could be led directly to pro monitors with digital input. Becoming rather common.
Basically a preamp will make whatever a DAC does, but better. A preamp is a must have item in any hi end system. I was not enjoying my system and messing around so many things trying not to expend money on a preamp. I was partially convinced to buy a preamp. I did then bought a used hi end one. That was amazing. That was the best improvement I did I my system. Sounds were then clearer, better played. I think it is a good improvement you can do for your system. Today, if I had to start a new system, that would be my first bought. That is the brain of your system. The amp is the heart and the speakers are the legs.
I rework retro for a living, most of todays preamps have 3 or 4 op amps usually nec5532's, popping a brown may help.Now real preamps should have a pcb full of top end analog components..not a single caterpillar (ic) as an old valve mate from the uk explained to me..
Not to take your answer out of context, but - True! Aside from personal taste, there is a reason why, just because equipment and speakers measure ruler flat on the speck sheet, doesn’t always equate to how they will sound in ones home at the listening position. First: Our human hearing is not equally sensitive to all frequencies encompassed in the musical/vocal range (in general, 28-16K Hz, excluding harmonics) until the overall sound pressure reaching our ears is about 65db - which is actually moderately loud. If you listen @ levels below 65db (at your listening seat) no mater how good you think your hearing is, no mater how ruler flat your system measures on the spec sheet, both the lows and the highs will be rolled off and is why some pre amps, receivers and integrated amps have Loud or Tone controls. Second: Regardless of how ruler flat your system measures, every room and it’s aesthetics, will have an impact on how your system sounds. I am no longer much interested in ruler flat specs, but only what kind of a job everything does together, in my home, to make a musical and engaging performance.....Jim
I'm about to pull the trigger on the Benchmark HPA4 as a linestage and let it do the volume control that has been done by my Benchmark DAC2 HGC, which is feeding a VAC 200iq amp into Sonist speakers. The system currently sounds great, but most all reports on the HPA4 say it's a definite step up from the HGC in the DAC. I seem to have a weakness for odd products that claim some special quality, and I find myself curious about the new Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL preamps. Anyone want to talk me out of the HPA4 and into the ZOTL? I suppose I could order both and return the lesser, but I hate returning stuff. Thanks.
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