Did anyone listen to the Dynaudio room? They had some new German made monster tube amps from Octave in there. 6 Moons did a write up about some of the smaller amps and integrated stuff and it does sound to me. I own the smaller tube amps and brothers to the big ones. I wish I went, just to see how all of the new equipment. Ciao, Audioquest4life
an interesting aside the all the equipment opinions (which is to be expected) is 'the biggest change of allin sound'...the demographic of the consumer..way older ears ,perhaps more affluent, predominately male, lots of free time....honestly, a completely different 'target' audience than 2 channel stereo was trying to attract 20 years ago or 30 years ago. The hi end portion of CES is looking like 'gods waiting room'....yes I'm an older fart too.
Worst sound was Tocaro speakers driven by EMM electronics. The speaker is a full range, single driver design from Germany priced at about $8,000. The sound was dreadful, tinny, and annoying.
The Ref 3A Grand Vs were driven by 30 wpc Belles amps and sounded very nice.
Having been there in the 1970's, let me tell you there were a lot more poor sounding speakers then than now. Some of todays cheaper speakers are much better than those from "good old days" Hey, the Japanese were buying and listening to 1960 Altecs and not buying Japanese 1970's speakers.
The last thing I would ever contemplate is that good old 70's sound. Now what coast did you prefer, East or West?
The speakers were so coloured that East coast were for light jazz, folk, classical(AR,)and the West coast rocked hard to JBL.
I second (or third) the Esoteric room. . . I was particularly taken by comparing on X-01 D2 playback of redbook tracks as PCM, and then repeating listening with conversion to DSD. . . very convincing to my ears and my musical prefs. G.
I thought that as usual, most of the cost no object rooms with full range speakers, YG acoustics, Focal, were as usual, stymied by room problems, as others have described. The only exception was the Gamut room, which I liked a lot. I agree with many remarks about other rooms:
TW Accustic Tron was excellent Daedalus Da-Rama/Modwright were very nice LSA, which nowone has mentioned, was very good for a low cost set up The contrast with the Wilson Sassha'a and Duette was interesting. I did'nt like the former at all, they seemed to have a hard edge to them, but the smaller speakers were one of the nicest set ups I heard. Moscode Von Scheikert were very good indeed. I understand there mmay be a synergy between them.
I'm with 76doublebass. The best room I heard - and by a stunningly wide margin - was the Win Analog room. Not sure if it's coincidence or not, but it was also the only room I entered with the speakers more than a quarter of the way in to the room.
I was pleasantly surprised by the small Esoteric room, which also featured the Esoteric speakers. I did not hear any leanness in that room, and it actually led me to more strongly consider an Esoteric CD player as a SS alternative to the Ayon CD-2 I enjoy so much.
hifi, tbg and mapman, maybe there have not been a lot of changes to improve certain quantitative aspects of sound reproduction but there are many that have improved the qualitative aspects. to mention a few, internal wire technology, capacitors types, resistor types, solders, inductor and driver technology. so although the last few posts have a degree of merit, imho i cannot totally agree.
The main difference between speakers back then and now is that well built speakers that are large and solid enough to deliver full or near full range sound clearly with muscle behind it in larger rooms in particular will cost a lot more new these days in general.
Vintage Sansui sp-5500 (made in Japan) "Some say speakers made in the late 60's to mid 70's were the best sounding speakers ever made... period!"..... "Speakers made (TODAY) are made mostly for Home Theater".......
Last year, Guido and I watched Sumiko and Soundings try to set up their De Muzik Vienna Acoustic speakers in a small room. It was painstaking, backbreaking work, in the end dealing with fractions of inches. After all this work, tweaking continued into the night and into the next morning. The speakers were impressive, but they really didn't show their true potential at the 2008 show.
This year Soundings elected to have a table at RMAF and steer interested parties over to their shop just two-blocks away. The De Muzik's had been tweaked for over a year. Despite this, Guido and I heard some sloppyness in the upper bass, particularly when driven with the massive Boulder 2060. The owner of Soundings and the Sony speaker designer worked further on placement and fixed the issue and greatly improved the top to bottom smoothness and integration before guests started showing up in volume on Friday.
That just shows you how tough the issue is, even in your home. Mike Lavigne even talked about how he's refining his bass absorbtion in his dedicated room that he's been in for years and seems overdamped. One last comment, Lars, the GamuT designer told us after we complained that he knew how to fix our complaint and asked us to come back in a little bit on Sunday. When we came back, the bloom in the bass was replaced by bottom to top coherancy and great inner detail, in that HUGE room. Lars said that he moved each speaker about 2-inches!!!
It's really tough for the exhibitors. At one show, I think it was CES in early 2008, Jeff Rowland struggled with his room for hours and finally elected to do a static display. Maybe more people should do that, but it's easy to understand their reluctance at such an event.
Dgarretson, I did not visit the GamuT room until Sunday, but I don't believe any of the first floor or mezzanine rooms sounded at all good on Friday or even Saturday. Some never! The Acapella room, the YG room, and the Synergistic Research rooms were examples of what I am saying. I would concede that the YG room sounded better than I have ever heard YGs sound, but on Sunday they were much better.
You are suggesting that manufacturers are failing those that attend. I agree, but most can do very little about this as they cannot install until Thurs. and often the equipment has just been finished up for this show and even CES.
I have been to at least forty "shows" and have never heard any exception. I must say that this is only one of the problems, however. Lousy rooms are another. I remember that Quad 57s always sounded good as they did not overload their room and took very little time to breakin. So I entirely agree with your last sentence, but neither problem has a likely solution.
Tbg, I see your point, but it doesn't explain how many exhibitors manage to obtain great sound from the get-go on Friday. If "big" room showcase exhibitors take several days to sort things out, then they are failing the majority of attendees. And if the "true" sound of the show is available to just an exclusive few on the last night of the show, this accomplishes little for the industry or for the state of the art.
With respect to GamuT, any casual visitor walking into that auditorium-sized room on Friday would understand that speakers positioned 25' apart are challenged to produce minimally acceptable performance.
For me the treasure at these shows is off-piste in the small rooms.
Dgarretson, right you are. Friday is useful only to see what you need to come back to hear, to buy software, and to visit with old friends. It is dead on Sunday night, but there are a few of us still around.
Lesson learned: instead of passing negative judgment on Friday, next time I need to arrive Sunday and leave Monday. Or perhaps vendors should arrive early and take more time for careful set-up.
The GamuT room was actually stunning after the speakers were reset. They had too much midbass and were reset on Sunday for better balance, clarity and inner detail.
I thought the Vandersteen prototypes at CES sounded better than these production versions, but I might have been an underpowered amp at RMAF. The demonstrator would not turn the volume up much.
Hi Duane, Yup, broke my own rule. Had my audio cohort's WHT PR1 mkII's on my Frankenstein's at my house, and they sounded hideous in the nether regions; but in his room, with a 1/3 the cost Rocket 88? Magic. Setting up a room in a hotel, with nasty A/C (when it flowed at all...) in a day's time is a recipe for an OK representation of a speaker's charms at best. Like I said, I was seriously bummed when I saw the Intuitive Design room unmanned last year, as I LOVED that room two years ago. The product reminds me of those 70's speakers that I fell in love with in my youth. I should have known better, and that goes double for what my mom always said about "If you can't say anything nice..." My apologies, and I hope to hear you next year. Maybe the Denali's?
For me the Tidal Contrivas in room 2004 walked away with the "best sound" award, but only by Sunday. Like always the last day is the best. Too often manufacturers bring green electronics and speakers.
Second but quite a step down both in realism and price was the Eficion speakers which were in room 461 with the StillPoints and Exemplar equipment.
There were a few other rooms with acceptable sound such as Reference 3A, but most just had normal show sound which did not excite any interest.
Thanks Duane for clarifying ID room. Having owned Dales speakers for over 15 years because I have yet to hear anything else I like more I just could not understand what Azaud was hearing. Dales speakers are incredibly clean with outstanding tonal balance. In most systems they would not be the weakest link in a system.Thanks again for the detailed info.
Jaybo....thanks to you I'll come out of the closet and give my opinion. I was at the show all three days, but now realize just how much I missed. I enjoyed many rooms and of course some were spectacular. The aforementioned Merlins and the TW Acustic with the Hornigs and the Trons(this was especially good)both stand out in my mind. The one room that really brought out emotion in me was the Harbeth room. I heard the little P3ESRs Sat. and was amazed at the sound. I went back Sunday to hear the SHL-5s and it was literally a religious experience. I was actually reaching in my back pocket for my check book which I had wisely stashed in my room. I was at the show all three days and this was the only system that left me awestruck. The soundstage was huge. The speakers melted away and I was taken away. The power was provided by a Perreaux integrated amp.
I've only been in this hobby for a couple of years, so what do I know. I do know what I heard and how I was moved.
"CanÂ’t believe the Accapela room has not been mentioned. .... And, you can own this system for about $300K!"
I think you answered your own question.
For $300,000, I would expect an out-of-body, dreamlike experience, every time. Reality just doesn't seem like enough to ask for at that price.
How come an article I read on High Triolon indicates only a $30,000 USD price tag? That might be reasonable though still mostly unaffordable if true. Were there $270,000 worth of supporting electronics required to produce the results? I thought horn speakers are supposed to be easy to drive and make sing?
This year RMAF was quite nice. I always attend on Sunday and the Â’09 show was the least crowded of all the previous RMAF shows. As usual, every room representative was very friendly, informative and accommodating.
Highlights: Grand Veena room always has great sound. This year I wanted to take them home. Everything I look for in a speaker: detail, big image, engaging and thrilling. Everyone else in the room seemed to share this impression and no one wanted to leave. Only negative – their appearance.
Can’t believe the Accapela room has not been mentioned. Certainly, the Triolon has had its challenges in past years. This year the High Violon was mesmerizing. It filled the large room with incredible realism – every track felt like a live performance. My vote for the top room at any RMAF show. And, you can own this system for about $300K!
The Esoteric room was also special. Small footprint yet incredible dynamic range. Huge realism factor here. Associated electronics, cables, etc were $$$. May be the first $5 K phono cable IÂ’ve heard.
I was helping to run the Intuitive room and you needed to know that there were no subs in the room. Just the Intuitive Gamma Summit speakers.
Also, the bass was only wooly if you were standing by the opening from the entrance because the cubical created by the lower ceiling and narrow width where the bathroom area was became one big bass tube.
After we put some plants in to break up the standing waves the sound on Sunday was stunning with very deep and fast bass that was exceptional by all standards.
Even Stereoiphile late Saturday afternoon thought it was the second best sound at the show.
We had several people walk in and before they gave them a chance on good music or music they knew turned around in 2 seconds and left. Not very open to discovery.
We started to stop people that walked in to the back of the room and told them to sit down and listen to music they liked. Every time they did they were floored and stayted for several songs.
Unfortunatly I did not hear many rooms so I only had others inputs to go on and everyone said we were either top 3 or the best. I have been to many trtade shows in the 29 years I have been in the high end buisness and it was the second best sound I ever heard right behind the Khartma speakers with LAMM Labs equipment at Vegas CES in 2002.
Keep in mind we have very modest high end electronics. The most expensive component being the Aesthetix pre-amp at $5k.
Hope you get another chance before you write them off. They are unusually speacial and I have owned a lot of legends in the past from Klyne, David Berning, Snell, Goetz, C.A.T. Audible Illusions, NRG, Unity Audio, Coda, Apex, FMS, Ayre, Von Schwiekurt, Bedini, Rogers, Celestion, Wharfidale, Accoustat, Aerial, Hales, Spectrum, Essence, Copland, AR, N.Y.A.L., Arcam, Parasound, VPI, Townsend Rock, Souther, Gale, Michealsin & Austin, ProAc, British Fidelity, Thore, Electrocompineit, Dynaudio, Micheal Gyrodeck, Rogue, Camber, Ampzilla, Roberts, Sequerra, Allison, Grace, Goldbug, Dynavector, Koetsu, Audioquest, McClaren, Perroux, Linn, Appogee, Sound Labs, Quick Silver, just to name a few.
The best at the show is almost a toss up between two IMO. WIN ANALOG WITH THE BIG S833 100 WATT MONSTEROUS TUBE AMP. I hope Albert took a great picture of this with the huge 833 RCA TUBE. Each amp weighs 200 pounds and puts out 500 watts of heat,BUT THE SOUND WAS TO DIE FOR.The most magical tube mid band I have ever heard in my life by a substantial margin. I was breathless listening to this room at hours at a time. The other room was Dueland Audio with the Kawero Speakers This had a huge wow factor as well.Just simply astounding transparency and realism. I could not hear any bad sounds at the show. Don C. Iwill post some more as time permints.
Ah, so it was newlyweds I met at the Vivid/Luxman/Synergistic room? Don't go spending all your wedding gifts on the system! It's wonderful that you're getting involved in each other's interests. I hope auiophilia is a lifelong shared joy for you.
I can't remember what was what in most of the rooms we hit... mostly because I forgot to take notes of any kind and I forgot to bring music! However, I remember the benchmark room being one that I could sit and listen to all day without fatigue, I greatly enjoyed the Ayre/Wilson room (not the HT room, but the room using the sashas) most of the time I visited it (usually it was too crowded though). The Peachtree/Zu room was great fun and great budget sound and the iFi chairs were a hoot. We also enjoyed the MA recordings room with the Davone rithm speakers (plus I picked up a few fantastic recordings while I was there), the wavelength room and the TW room. The Nordost room sounded quite good considering I'd yet to hear a system cabled with nordost that I liked. For once they weren't overly bright, thin and bass light. Plus the demo was very entertaining.
My favorite room though, and my best of show, was the Luxman/Vivd/Synergistic Research room. Philip and Ted and crew were great company, the sound was outstanding and the demos were enlightening. I loved it so much in fact that every break during the show and after hours we had we seemed to end up sitting and enjoying the music.
All, I made a major factual mistake in my previous post, for which I apologize to all concerned: suite 589, where I listened to the excellent bel Canto Ref 500M mono amps, was completely wired with Cardas Clear, NOT with XLO. Hence any reference to XLO in my previous post is completely unwarranted and should be ignored
. The paragraph in question should have read:
* * *
Regarding the Bel Canto room in 589-590. . . yes, the sound of the room was not 'warm' to my ears. . . rather, I found it to be rather neutral with a very slight overpressure in the treble region, and a minor tendency to intermodulate in harmonically complex sostenuto passages in the upper treble. The overall gracefulness of the sound was one of the reasons why DCSTEP and I remained there for the better part of an hour or may be even more, in spite of a slight tendency to tippiness in the treble that made the sound suboptimal. As I am not even faintly familiar with the Joseph Audio house sound, nor with the Cardas Clear wires, I have no idea about their relative impact on the overall result. However, being quite familiar with the sound of the suite from last year, as well as with the extremely graceful Bel Canto Ref series sonic signature, I am inclined to exonerate completely the BC R500M from being the origin of the very slight treble anomalies, which may have been caused by something as simple as speaker placement issues.
* * *
PS. This morning I had requested via email that Audiogon staff nuke my previous post entirely, so I could resubmit it cleanly with the amendment above. Unfortunately, the duty administrator tersely declined my request, stating that removing posts is against policy. This of course is quite surprising in view of historical data. It is also a sad commentary about the apparent dualism still existing between the new and friendly image that Audiogon is fostering through its "Hub", and a much more basic reality persisting in the trenches, which makes me seriously consider alternate audiophilic climes.
Hi Agear, Ya, and after their (Intuitive Design) no-show last year, I was really looking forward to it. Two years ago I was blown away by the sound with those monster water-cooled muthas. When I heard them this year however, I was underwhelmed, to say the least. I'm not a fan of powered subs integrated into the design of speakers, and the amps that fit into those bases were MIA two years ago, and with just the monitors working, I thought they sounded magnificent. With that woolly, inorganic bass this year? No thank you.
Or, some vintage Accuphase, McIntosh, Western Electrics or Kondo's through Tannoy's, Altec's, JBl Paragons or exotic Klangfilm's. It would blow peoples minds how amazing vintage gear sounds to 90% of what is heard today.
Jaybo, I agree. A "Classic" Room at RMAF would be cool. A local audio society or even Audiogon or Audiokarma members could supply the equipment and time. Maybe small donations could be made, like a tip jar as people enter to help fund the room. A speaker, amp, turntable set up that could change every day or half-day.
Another approach would have vintage dealers or those that repair or sell replacement parts and refurbished equipment could share the costs of a room and showcase their work. I'd love to hear a Marantz 8b and 7c and some Tannoys or a Marantz 2325 receiver with double Advents.
Yeah, they were the Penny's. Perhaps that did play a role in the depth of field reproduction but quite honestly the sound was involving and balanced. I have a pair of BC 2's that have depth extraordinaire at a higher $ amount ( in it's day) than the system Gilbert was running, so needless to say I think BC has evolved in it's artistry to cost ratio.
Were the speakers in the Blue Circle room their own Pennys?
If so the Walsh driver used would surely help account for a wide, deep soundstage more so than the amplification perhaps, but again one can only assess the system as a whole. Its hard to determine what the individual pieces alone might sound like otherwise.
1. Soundsmith, with Strain Gauge cartridge set-up, VPI table, Tere's arm, Soundsmith solid state amp, Soundsmith tube pre and Soundsmith speakers. Nothing short of spectacular.
2. Tron Electric SET monoblocks with the TW-Acustic turntable, Miyabi 45 cartridge and the Horning hybrid loudspeakers. Most natural, elegant sound in show.
3. Blue Circle, with new tube pre, Accuphase cartridge tweeked by BENT I believe, Hybrid BC amps all displaying an extremely deep, wide soundstage. Sounded detailed with excellent texture and bass control.
4. Audio Note, Integrated in small room. Sounded best in it's catagory for 2k. Large room just ok, synergy was off in big room.Obviously set up was lacking and no phono. No phono in a high end Audio Note room is simply shameful.
5.De Havilland, Kara Chaffee with new monoblock push pulls sounded excellent. Not a big fan of Wilson Benesch speakers but they did fine. Would rather hear amps through Harbeth's, Tannoy's, Altecs or Classic Audio speakers.
6. Quicksilver room sounded excellent this year. Some big breakthroughs for Mike Saunders. He never seems too amaze at cost versus quality. One of my favorites in show. Big, textured, wide and deep soundstage with excellent dynamics and bass drive. Competed with the best this year.
OHM E's (vintage entry model OHM box speakers, $200/pair 30 years ago) might be an interesting dirt cheap choice with a SET tube amp perhaps, at low to moderate SPLs, in the right room if low end extension is not a concern. I've never heard that combo though.
I don't know if I ever considered Es competitive with the likes of large Advents however, at least with most SS amps I have heard both with. Marantz would be a good choice for them however. the next step up the old OHM line, the Ls, were very hard to distinguish from the large Advents however and I personally always preferred the Ls (Es were "thinner" sounding in general).
I never thought of OHM Es as speakers that could "blow the house down" in general, but they are certainly good performers within their limits and might still be had for next to nothing.
I'd agree that it is not that hard to get very good sound out of many smaller quality vintage speakers at least in smaller rooms. Larger rooms are certainly a bigger challenge. I'd like to enter enter my vintage Dual 1264 table with Goldring cartridge running on a vintage Yamaha receiver in a blind sound test against much pricier modern rigs in a typical room and see what happens. It is surprisingly sounding way better than ever and highly competitive these days. I bought it back in 1981.
spica tc50( or 60),Celestion 100, Large Advent, Dahlquist 905, Dynac A25, JBL 4312, Ohm E (or E2), Cabasse Sloop(or Clipper), Pink Triangle Ventrical, AR 302, altec Lansing 305, Allison 4,5(or cd7)...i can keep going, but I'll need time.... All of these sound great in an avg sized room and all can be had cheap...add your favorite lp (wine or pot are recommended options) and have a downright religious experience.
one of these days (at one of these shows), someone is going to set up a pair of old (pick any old classic speaker for under 500 bucks), a marantz receiver, and a dual turntable, and blow the house down. yes, i'm serious.
DCSTEPs cautioning about the origin of the slight limitations of the Gamut room are absolutely on the money. The room was too alive and somewhat too large for optimal results, regardless of speaker setup. A handclap test I performed exposed a painfully high amount of uncontrolled slap-echo. In spite of room limitations, Lars of GamuT addressed the initial unspecificity in the mid bass by repeatedly tweaking the positioning of the speakers until the very final session on Sunday with results that in the end were very impressive. Dave and I played once again Bach's organ Toccata Adagio and Fugue in C-minor Sunday afternoon and the result was tremendous. No mid bass wobble could be detected at all. . . bass was deep, taught and as tuneful as I could expect from a top flight large system. As we did not repeat the playback of the piano and string quintet tracks by Dvorak, I do not know if low level resolution was in the end les/greater than the Vienna/Boulder/Rowland suite at Soundings. In the end room interactions may still have been a factor in my slight pref for the musicality of the latter.
Regarding the Bel Canto room in 589-590. . . yes, the sound of the room was not 'warm' to my ears. . . rather, I found it to be rather neutral with a very slight overpressure in the treble region, and a minor tendency to intermodulate in harmonically complex sostenuto passages in the upper treble. The overall gracefulness of the sound was perhaps that is one of the reasons why DCSTEP and I remained there for the better part of an hour or may be even more, in spite of a slight tendency to tippiness in the treble that made the sound suboptimal. As I am not even faintly familiar with the Joseph Audio house sound, I have no idea about its impact on the overall result. However, being quite familiar with the sound of the suite from last year, with Bel Canto Ref series sonic signature, and having found XLO somewhat tipped up for my preference over the years, I am inclined to impute some of the slight treble anomalies to the wiring.
Lastly, a generic recommendation for manufacturers to refrain from public electronic joustings with the customer set. The 'high road' may be found to be a more effective corporate markcom technique in the long run. G.
I heard the Vandy 7's and ARC setup on Friday and was nonplussed. I returned on Saturday and was much more impressed, but I thought they were hampered by the small room. I look forward to hearing that system again.
The YGA Kiphods were in my top five; huge soundstage and seemingly unlimited dynamic and frequency ranges; smooth and utterly palpable image.
What were those monitors in the Nordost demo room? I never heard a small speaker handle large orchestra at high volume (Stravinsky!) with such aplomb. Would have listened longer, but that's when the first power outage occurred and I didn't get a chance to return. I was just sitting down to hear the Thiel 3.7's when the power went out again, so I didn't hear them either.
I agree with the positive reviews of the Joseph Audio Pearl/Bel Canto setup, the VTL/Avalon system and the Bamberg Audio(?) speakers.
If I had someone else's checkbook, though, I would have written a check on the spot for the Boulder electronics/Vienna Die Musik setup at Soundings. For me, it was the very best among many good systems. Simply amazing.
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