What's the greatest bargain in SET these days?

New Kit 1 blog posts are up for those who are interested...

Well, first package arrived on Friday. This 15 pound package contains everything except the transformers. Transformer box due on Tuesday. Then a third box shortly thereafter because Brian ran short on a few tubes. He encouraged me to take inventory of the box, so look for unboxing photos and commentary on the blog soon!

Reb,

I would withhold final judgement on Class D until you hear a well matched setup. Stop by my house someday.

MD, I'll contact you via agon email about your OHM question.

Mapman,
As for the combination of the valve preamp and the class D power amp, Bobby P of Merlin thought it was a bizarre combination, too. He didn't especially mention any impedance mismatch, just that the sound of the components was so different.

Schubert, teh other sonic distinction would be between newer more rectangular cabinets with built in plinth below and older cabinets with sloped sides and no plinth. The vertical Walsh style driver and bottom port result in a lot of bass energy in particular being imparted vertically to the floor compared to other designs, so something to be aware of and manage.

Thanks Map.

Assuming a good fit into the room, perhaps some low end extension, but I would not expect much of a difference if integrated well into the right size room. If so, a sub or two could close the gap.

The OHM Walshes of a particular vintage (currently Micros and X000 series) are all designed to sound inherently the same in their target size rooms. Bigger drivers can deliver more output at lower frequencies obviously, but that's about it. The rest is the same just scaled up or down, which is quite a unique thing. You can get the best sound possible in a small room with micros or 100s, larger models add little or nothing.

My Walsh F5s and 100 series 3 speakers are both one series old. 5X models (the largest) come with 4 3 way adjustments on each speaker that provide flexibility in fitting those into any room, large or small. I have compared them to my 100s in my smaller room suitable for either and the sound is in fact essentially the same. The 5s are much bigger and are overkill though for a small room alone. They sit normally in my large L shaped room which is 20'X30' more or less. My smaller room(s) are both 12X12, each with very distinct acoustics.

MAPMAN, speaking of OHM, how much do you gain/lose between
Microwalsh Talls amd Ohm 1000 ??

Hi Mapman (and everyone else!) - As fellow Ohm owner (Walsh 2000 drivers in a Walsh 2 cabinet), I'm curious about exploring a Class D / Tube amp combination (I'm currently using an Anthem 225 integrated)...but I'm not entirely clear about what to look for from each component re: impedance matching, or what role impedance plays in choosing speaker wire with these speakers. Any thoughts? Much obliged - Matt

REbbi,

Reading your historical info on teh blog, it may have been covered back then, don't recall but your Class D amp had only 10000K input impedance which is minimal and far from optimal for use with a tube pre-amp. FWWW, I'd be willing to bet if you were using it with teh Manley or most any tube pre-amp results might not be that great. COuld have impacted the OHMs easily if in the picture then, as might a lively room.

Darkmoebius,
Thanks a lot!
The more I think about it, the more I’m remembering buying that first good system.
I dragged a vinyl copy of James Taylor's "That's Why I'm Here" to any number of audio salons all over metro NYC, where I was living a the time. What sold me on the Vandy's was that they were the only speaker that seemed to nail the bass guitar glissando near the beginning of the title song. :-) Oh, that, and the lack of a boxy sound.

I love it! The new backstory really helps to let readers know where you are coming from, the constraints you are working under(room size & WAF), and where you are hoping to go.

BTW, I also started out with some 2C's. A great buy for their time. SET, and SET-friendly speakers, are a whole different world from the Vandi approach.

More blog posts here, for those interested...

Great starting point for your blog, Rebbi

Maybe a little primer on what you had before and what you thought was lacking and what you are searching for

It went without mention that I like your blog and will follow your progress:)

Isochronism,
Thanks. "Lessons from the Baby Elephants" is probably, unfortunately, an ad that Wordpress slaps on the sites of people who don't upgrade to the premium membership. Oh, well...

Hi Rebbi,
I hadn't commented in this thread, but I also use 300B amplifiers. (And 45)
I really enjoyed "The Lessons from Baby Elephants" at the bottom of your blog.
Best of luck with your build.

Okay:

My Audio Note Kit 1 build blog is live; not much content, yet, obviously, but it's right here.

Brownsfan,
Thanks for the kind words. I totally agree that the proof is in the listening And yes, you are correct: after all this investigation as well as the effort to build this amp, I may find that the Audio Note Kit 1 sounds like a total pile of poop in my humble listening room. I mean, I certainly hope not, but listening with my gear and my music in my room will be the only meaningful way to evaluate this whole process.
As for my patience, well, a lot of that had to do with a tight budget; not a lot of room for costly mistakes!

Charles1dad,
Yes, I'd love to see a head to head comparison of the Dynamo and either the Decware Zen Torii (25 watt PP) or the "Rachael" (6 watt SE). I considered both of those amps until I decided to shoot for 300b and went for the Audio Note Kit 1.
As for the quality of the "iron" of the output transformers, the ad copy for the "Rachael" says:

"OUTPUT TRANSFORMER COUPLING
The Zen is a very stable amplifier capable of driving all high efficiency loudspeakers because of it's transformer-coupled output stage. This creates a hand-shake between the amplifier and the loudspeaker and protects the speaker from DC voltages should a tube ever fail. Of course most tube amplifiers use output transformers, which tend to be the most expensive single components in the amp. This is where most amplifiers fall short by trying to impress you with big heavy transformers of average or low quality. The more power the amp has, the more likely it is to use moderate quality transformers - at best."

Interesting, eh?

All of this recent discussion is exactly why there is no substitute for an audition in one's own system and room, fully equipped with one's own music and prejudices and preferences.

Rebbi has done an heroic job of doing his homework. I stand in awe (and envy) of his patient deliberation. But the reality is that all of his work, and my reasonably informed opinion, isn't worth 20 minutes of an in home audition.

As the brick and mortar paradigm becomes less and less prevalent, those designers that offer in home auditions are going to have a real leg up. Such a program does drive the cost up, but does a lot to ensure happy customers. I am solidly in Charles' "how does it sound" camp. Nothing short of an in home audition satisfies that question.

As a long time Magnepan fan, I spent far too much time shaking my head in uniformed amusement at those who chose to drive their Maggies with 60WPC tube amps. In retrospect, it is a pity I never took the time to do even a casual audition. Too much left brain, not enough right brain. This is music. It is about an emotional response, differential equations notwithstanding.

I think Rebbi has made a great choice, and I am eager to hear how things go with his experiment.

Smctique1 say at 80 db the Decware began to have problems. Brownsfan said the Dynamo was good up to about 90-92 db, that's quite a difference using the same speaker. Anyway both of these amplifiers will certainly have their loyal supporters. The Dynamo has gotten very positive professional reviews and favorable show reports (if that matters to anyone). I 'm less impressed by what engineers have to say based on specs and visual inspection. Bottom line for an audio component is how does it sound ? If that falls short then you won't listen to it much at all. A direct comparison would be a niceplace to start. They are both reasonably priced.

I'd be surprised if the loudness issue was due to the transformers. Decware seems pretty proud of the iron he uses. There is thread on another forum comparing the build/parts of the Dynamo to Decware and FWIW, the decware seems to get more respect from the engineer type guys with specific mention of the capacitors and wiring layout.

I know there is another poster here on audiogon who uses a 4 watt Decware and feels it drives his decapos perfectly fine. Ultimate loudness can be a very subjective thing and two different people can have very different ideas about what is and isn't loud enough even in the same room with the same equipment.

DECware website also shows a FR graph for their set indicating extended flat response using a "real speaker load" (paraphrasing) but I did not see where the exact speaker load used to produce the graph was indicated. I suspect it was very large and very efficient. Anyone know?

I read that SET amps are more prone to limits in frequency response (ie not necessarily reasonably flat from 20-20K) than most other amp architectures. Low end extension is without doubt where most power is required. Its basic physics. Limited low end extension might help account for better performance at higher listening volumes in some cases. Transformer and power supply build quality matter as well no doubt, but a watt is still a watt and can only go so far.

The Coincident SET sis advertise 20-20K frequency response in their specs as I recall. I would think that kind of low end extension would up teh ante in terms of needed speaker efficiency and overall size needed to deliver flat response down to the usual 20 hz or so from a SET amp.

That's just what I get out of it. Maybe some others more experienced can help clarify.

Smctique1, I wouldn't be surprised if the Decware's disappointing performance is output transformer related. What you described can be traced to that and a less than robust power supply. Brownsfan didn't have this problem with the Dynamo driving the very same speaker. There's no substitute for good iron in a tube amplifier.

Smctigue1,
Well, with the Torii's putting out substantially more juice than the Rachael's 6 watts, it sounds like I avoided some disappointment with my De Capo's, although my room's only 11 x 16 x 8, so it's smaller than yours.

Hi Tubegroover, early days with this amp but here are my impressions so far. The first thing that I immediately noticed was a beautiful tranparency. Instruments at the back of the soundstage have far more detail than my push pull amps. Instruments/sounds hang in space surrounded by lots of air - very cool. Liquid midrange but not syrupy - excellent detail. Tuneful bass and extended/sweet highs. Dynamic. I've listened to mostly Jazz so far, not sure if the amps will rock in my room yet, it's pretty large (21' x 24'). Listened to Kenny Burrel - Midnight Blue tonight. Toms, cymbals, guitar all floating in space on a black background. Beautiful tone on the guitar.

The amps run VERY hot!! Could be an issue in a small room, serious space heaters. Build quality is good. I haven't opened the hood yet but Vlad has a good reputation.

I'm going to pick up a pair of good NOS 6sl7's, maybe a nice 40's Tungsol, I currently have what looks like a later RCA in there with a very nice 40's Syl VT-231. I've read that the input tube has the most influence on the sound. Down the road I'll look at upgrading the coupling caps as well.

Nice synergy with the De Capo's. I listen at about 85db's generally. The amps seem to cruise at that volume. 90 to 95 and they sound a bit taxed. Again, my room is pretty big though. Very happy so far!

Hi Smctiguel

I too am looking at the Audio Mirror. What I find interesting is the fact that it uses the 6c33 tube, has some serious power and the reasonable price. Unfortunately I couldn't find any details or reviews beyond what is on their website. I was also a bit concerned about the heat output using those tubes. Could you kindly provide a bit more detail? The build quality and heft appear to be quite substantial as well. Thanks for your input.

I thought for sure the Torii would be a perfect amp for the De Capo's in my room (21'x24'). I sit 8' tweeter to ear. The Torii's ran out of steam at about 80db's and always sounded like they were on the cusp of clipping with compressed dynamics and soundstage. At low volume they sounded amazing but....

I thought for sure the Torii would be a perfect amp for the De Capo's in my room (21'x24'). I sit 8' tweeter to ear. The Torii's ran out of steam at about 80db's and always sounded like they were on the cusp of clipping with compressed dynamics and soundstage. At low volume they sounded amazing but....Very dissapointing.

By the way as noted much earlier in this thread, Steve Deckert said that the " "Rachael" would drive the De Capo's well with some limitations on the ability to "crank it," but it would sound so great that I wouldn't care. ;-)

smctigue1,
Thanks for the post.
I'm really surprised that your experiment with the Decware Torii was unsuccessful. How so? I actually looked hard and long at Decware and nearly bought the SE34I.4 or "Rachael," but thought that with those small transformers and at 6 watts it would lack the oomph to drive the De Capo's.
Now Brian Smith of Audionote was confident that the Kit 1 would drive the De Capo's with authority, so, we'll see! My room is fairly small and closed in and I sit around 8.5 feet from my speakers, so I think I'll be okay...

Mikirob,
I see lots of Shuguang Black Treasure tubes there but no 300b's.
The whole tube rolling thing still confuses me. How do you know what will sound best without trial and error?

After an unsuccessful experiment with a Decware Torii MkIII I picked up a pair of Audio Mirror 45 SET monoblocks to pair with my De Capo's. They are based on a parallel pair of 6c33 power tubes. 45 watts per channel.

Dynamic, fast, liquid, transparent, extended/sweet highs, excellent bass, detailed. Frankly, I'm shocked at how good they are for the price.

I'm curious to see how you make out with the AN. I have seen comments regarding the DeCapo and SET's claiming success with 4 watt units but also read about people who claimed they couldn't get above 70db at the listening position without clipping with an 8 watt SET.

Best of luck with it, hope it works out for you.

Rebbi,
Check out Amazon for the Shuguang Black Treasure Tubes. Outstanding pricing.

Mikirob,
Yes, nice call on all 3 games yesterday. Green Bay vs New England this sunday, I'm going New England. Aaron Rogers has been on fire but Brady is as good and the Patriots are a better team overall. Yes I know the Packers are the home team. I hope Rebbi does a blog also.

Rebbi,
Blogging the experience is a great idea. Most of us who followed this thread will likely read the blog with great interest. It might inspire some of us to follow your trail blazing path. Have solder iron, will travel.

Charles, I get lucky with my NFL picks on occasion.

Mapman,
"Guru?"
Not so sure!
But I'll know more than when I started!

Audiogon will be +1 SET guru when Rebbi is done.

Brownsfan,
I think I'm going to do it. Blogging the build would add an extra dimension to the experience. Stay tuned...

Rebbi, I would be very interested in a blow by blow account of your build. Please keep us all informed.

Roxy54,
Thanks for the kind good wishes.
The kit should be delivered in a week or so. Timing should be good because I anticipate having a lighter work schedule in December/January.
My plan is to work on this project VERY SLOWLY and carefully. I'm considering blogging the experience and if I do I'll post a link to it here.

Rebbi,
Small details aside, I think you are really going to have a lot of fun listening with this amp. It is just going to be a new experience for you in comparison to what you are accustomed to, and it should mate well with your speakers since they don't have a complex crossover.
Keep us posted as you begin building it.

I wonder what kinds of amps are favored by the Eagles Defense? :-P

Mikirob,
Good call, the Eagle defense was dominant and set the tone for this game.

Charles,
The Eagles also have a good OL, although lots of injuries, plus a good running game. Also too bad the QB is injured, but I think the Eagles have the better Defense.

Rebbi,
I thought everyone loved football LOL(part of my early culture).
Mikirob, the Eagles are good and explosive. I'm a big believer in good offensive lines and running the ball, thus Dallas for me. Rebbi Grant Fidelity is good and I have purchased from them without problems. The upper level line of Pavane tubes they sell are very good quality. Back to the football game, go Lions!
Charles,

Rebbi,
That is great. Just bought my 6CA7-Z from Rachel at Grant Fidelity, plus past 300Bs and CV181s. Fabulous to work with them. You will likely like these tubes. Recommended by Israel Blume for his 300B amps amongst others. Again, best of luck with everything, I'm really happy for you, rooting that all works out the way you would like.

Mikirob,
Thanks. As I said, not a football fan, but I grew up in Philly and live in Texas, so if I root for anybody, it'll be the Eagles (which were the dogs of the NFL all throughout my childhood).

As for tubes, there's another option. ANK is partnering with Grant Fidelity as their tube upgrade partner, offering ANK customers a nice discount on tubes (See this.)