Just my uninformed and untested opinion, and maybe I am wrong, but this Clever Little Clock sounds more like a Clever Little CROCK to me. Any true believers are welcome to enlighten me, but don't expect me to whip out the credit card just yet. Don't mean to "tick" anyone off. Note: sarcastic skeptical scoffers are also very welcome to post to this thread. :)
I agree there is probably some truth to hearing something cause you want to hear something, but on the other hand things like this can work.
As for the clock, I proved it worked. If you go read in tech talk "does anyone sharpie cd's" I explained how I proved that this thing does work and it was not because I wanted it to.
I made a bet to anyone that they could move a clock in and out of my house and would prove perfect that I knew where it was. Guess what, no one took me up cause I believe they know I would always guess right its location.
I explained how I proved that this thing does work and it was not because I wanted it to.
So funny. Freemand, you guessing where your wife places little clocks does not constitute proof that the clocks work. You merely demonstrating an overactive imagination.
Little clocks cannot affect sound they do not affect the power line supplies, vibration, temperature, airborne noise, RFI (and EMI) or acoustics. That I can prove by measuring lack of changes in above.
I can however, prove that items such acoustic panels, cables, interconnects do effect sound. I do that by measuring and I can (many times) hear the effect also.
There is no black magic in audio, everything that effect sound has a 100% rational explanation.
My guessing where my wife placed the clock in the house or out of the house 25 times right does prove they made a sonic difference.
Where your way off the deep end is my ability of guessing a perfect 25 times of the clocks placement is an overactive imagination! YOU CAN'T EASILY GUESS 25 TIMES RIGHT OUT OF MERE LUCK! Or at least the odds are so bad of getting it right 25 times. I would have kept going to guess 100 times right of the clocks placement, but my wife would have slapped me by about the 29th time!!
Paul, my only question (and I think you will dance around it or ignore it) is why is guessing its location without knowing where its put so easy and could do it 100 times.....if I had 40 hours to waste.
Freemand, my feet are on very solid ground. You can guess million times, it proves nothing.
What control did you use? Did your wife switch between clocks and something else? I'm guessing not.
Could you not hear your wife open the door when she put the clock outside? Unless you're hard of hearing it entirely possible that you could hear your front door.
How do you know the observed change was due to the clock?
Was anybody around to corroborate your tests? I'm guessing not.
Did the voltage remain consistent in your mains? Did you even bother to measure that?
How do you confirm the observed changes are not psychoacoustic? Did you attempt any non-subjective testing/measurement at all?
What is your hypothesis? Why does a $5 clock effect your sound? What is the physics behind this phenomena?
So your flawed observations is proof? Give me a break.
Do some research on scientific method. There are established procedures for establishing proof for a hypotheses. The only thing you have managed to prove is that you paid $200 for a $5 clock.
I can guarantee you that irrespective of placement of clock in your house, there will be zero measurable differences in you system. I'll bring whatever equipment you want me to bring spectrum analyzer, SPL meter, accelerometer, thermometer, oscilloscope, whatever you want. We will find no change because the only change is in your imagination. (and your credit card).
There is not one tweak on this planet that is not measurable and does not have a sound scientific explanation and reason. In short, there is nothing that travels into you ears that is not based on physics and cannot be explained.
Geoff Kaitt cannot explain any of the crap he sells.
I will not even bother with you anymore Paul. You so have a biased mind and closed heart to hear ANYTHING other then what YOU decided in your mind you want to believe.
If you believe in something so much you will believe ........guess what, thats what your doing.
Yes, the test did prove it and if you don't want to believe me go ahead and believe what you want.
You remind me of an atheist hell bent on living his life to prove there is no God. Even if there was you already told your mind so many times and closed it to anything else.
Of course my wife did not change the clock out with anything. It's easy, the clock was taken out and then taken back in the house. Change it with something would not make sense. I also have a soundproofed home theater with a solid core and sealed door. I hear nothing other then my wife yelling that she made the change. I'm oblivious to what she did.
You seem to be an angry guy that needs science and explanations to all things in this world to enjoy audio kind of guy!!!!
If anyone want's to be reasonable and dialog thats cool, but I have nothing more Paul to chat with you cause this is not going to be reasonable dialog by any means and don't desire to cause fights on here.
Lets chat audio with other passionate audio dudes in fun!
+++ If you believe in something so much you will believe ........guess what, thats what your doing.+++
and
+++ You remind me of an atheist +++
So am I the non believer or am I the believer? You are attributing both to me. (I personally lean towards non believer if that's the same to you)
+++ You so have a biased mind and closed heart to hear ANYTHING other then what YOU decided in your mind you want to believe.+++
Actually, I believe what physics tells me. I build amps as a hobby, and I always found physics to be a better guide to building than faith. The science surrounding audio is quite fascinating and really enhances my enjoyment of the hobby. There is nothing quite like listening and tweaking your own creations.
+++ Yes, the test did prove it +++
You are confusing your beliefs with proof. To prove something you need a controlled environment, corroboration, objective measuring, a hypothesis etc. etc. You just don't.
+++ You seem to be an angry guy that needs science and explanations to all things in this world to enjoy audio kind of guy!!!!+++
I don't see why a factual explanations should be considered a bad thing for audio.
+++ have nothing more Paul to chat with you cause this is not going to be reasonable dialog +++
Your choice Freemand. My apologies that facts and sound scientific reasoning upset you. Maybe if refrain from claiming you have single handedly debunked science you won't be called out for it?
Paul, I thought you would avoid this question above, but how can I guess perfect 25 times where my wife placed the clocks (more if I wanted to waste the time) being oblivious in my room of where she put it? If its my imagination then why do I always know its location. One thing it did prove is I was always able to know whether the clocks in the house or out of the house.
Freemand, to confirm what you are claiming/asking; are you saying you could tell where in your house the clock was placed based on what you heard from your sound system
Freemand, Just a suggestion ( No need to respond ). Ice is getting thinner, especially after your last few posts. I don't want to get involve but do yourself a favor and slow down on GPS phenomena ( from the bottom of my hart ). Do it for your own good.
Freemand, do you mind expanding - what did your sound sound like when the clock was, lets say, in the bathroom as opposed to your kitchen?
What artifact in the sound that you heard from your audio system made you know the clock was in the kitchen rather than the bathroom - more detail, more dynamics, better soundstage?
Freemand...25 correct answers in a row does sound like you are the man. The only thing more convincing would have been 26 out of 26. Have you ever considered the possibility that you might be a savant? You might think about changing your username to Rain Man.
Actually, considering that Geoff told me that the clock had to be outside the house for it no longer to be effective, I'd be curious to know how the sound would change with the clock in various places in the house. FWIW, I did not hear any effect of the clock, both during our NJSO "scientific" test of its effect a couple of years ago and my experimentation before and after that meeting.
Agreed RC. I appreciate your candidness and I strongly suspect you will never hear the effects of the clock.
But if you read between the lines what Freemand is stating, he seems to be claiming that not only can he recognize from artifacts in his sound system where the clock is, but he was able to do so the very first time the clock was placed in a room! How would that be possible?
As an analogy, it like saying I can identify between Grey Goose, Absolut and Skyy in a blind test without ever having tasted them before. That is simply not plausible. One would need to associate the taste with the brand before one can identify them in a blind test. (And in my analogy, there is an actual difference in taste between the brands.)
Freemand claims to have made an association before he had ever heard it. Clearly Freemand is embellishing, and at that, not doing a particular good job at it.
I find it rather sad that when some folks get taken for a ride like he has been, they feel a need to save face, and then engage in perpetrating the same fraud upon others.
I certainly never will hear the effects, as I had gotten it on a lark for our audio society meeting both for the test and for a door prize, which no one took until the next year's holiday meeting. That person, incidentally, a profound skeptic, has not reported any changes in his system from the clock, but he only took it really to use it to tell what time it was.
Freemand: I have another experiment that you might try.
See if you can correctly tell the difference between the $200 MD Clever Little Clock and the exact same POS alarm clock that you could buy at Walgreens for $7. If you can do this 25 times in a row, you're ready to pay $30 for a MD Duplex Cover that you might have otherwise purchased at Home Depot for $4.
Paul, you won't answer the easy question. You keep dancing around the EASY question.
Question is, why am I able to guess perfectly 25 times by listening to a change in my system whether the clock was in or out of the house?
By the way, I had the clocks for a year in my system before doing that test. They went either out of the house or in the house for the test. I don't know why you'd ask how it sounded different in the kitchen instead of the bathroom. Never said a thing about those places.
What question Freemand? Your fantasy that changes with each and every post you make?
11-13-07: Freemand : but how can I guess perfect 25 times where my wife placed the clocks (more if I wanted to waste the time) being oblivious in my room of where she put it?
11-13-07: Pauly : Freemand, to confirm what you are claiming/asking; are you saying you could tell where in your house the clock was placed based on what you heard from your sound system
11-13-07: Freemand : That is correct Paul!
In the above quote you clearly state that you can discern changes in sound when the clock is moved from room to room and even answer affirmatively when I query you on it. Yet now your story changes to ...
11-15-07: Freemand : They went either out of the house or in the house for the test. I don't know why you'd ask how it sounded different in the kitchen instead of the bathroom. Never said a thing about those places.
Sure you didnt. I guess the boogie man made the other post?
Note to self, file Freemand with Tbg and UranusCommittee under TROLL
You guys are misunderstanding. THERE IS NO WHERE IN THE POST THAT SAID ANYTHING ABOUT IT BEING IN THE KITHCHEN OR BATHROOM. It was posted as in the house or out of the house.
Show me where in the post I talked about putting it in the kitchen compared to the bathroom?????
This quote I said above is taken so out of context. It is the quote as follows......."but how could I guess perfect 25 times of where my wife placed the clocks (more if I wanted to waste time) being oblivious in my room of where she put it.
"Being oblivious in my room of where she put it" meant when I was in my room (my room meaning when I was sitting in my home theater rooom) I did not know if she put it outside or inside the house. Nothing said of what individual room used. Go read the last sentence in that same paragraph. At the end of that sentence I said "One thing it did prove is if the clock was in the house or out of the house". Nothing about a kitchen or bathroom!!!
Paul, you continue to dance around the easy question. Kinda like a Hillary Clinteness with the drivers license thingy!
I will ask it for the 4th time! Why am I able to guess perfect 25 times whether the clock was in the house or out of the house?
Hey Freemand, I was wondering what brand components are in the system you did your testing with, just out of curiosity. Did you try it with a cd's and with LP's, or just one or the other? Thanks.
Using a EAD powermaster 8300 amp, Arcam cd player, Anthem processor and a BPT 3.5 signature. All components have had mods done. I do all tweaks and mods solely on two channel and never multi or movies. I figure if you get two channel right it will trickle down to home theater applications.
Using tesla cables and virtual dynamics upper end stuff.
I am a doctoral physics student and when i came accross these clocks for the first time i just blew it off as B.S. but i got to thinking about it. I had just been reading an excellent article on the trans-metral implications of Shastkovski's theorem. There really could be some basis on this (the effect of the clocks on aural sensation) if you examine it using the string-theory interpretation. (you have to use the 11 dimensional manifold for it to really make sense)
I went down to my local Pamida and bought two travel alarm clocks, different brands. I then went to office depot and bought a pack of round orange stickers. In my home laboratory i carefully washed the clocks with lab-grade ethanol and then placed the two clocks on a properly grounded ESD mat. I then bathed the clocks in de-ionized air for about an hour. (27 deg C) Then, using a pair of stainless steel tweezers (i store these in ethanol) i carefully removed two of the round orange stickers from the sheets they are affixed to in the package. I have a light grid that i can project onto a work surface - makes it easy to center stuff although the shadows are annoying. (edmund sells them) I carefully centered the stickers on the LCD displays of the clocks and then inserted the batteries. (stock batteries that came with the clocks).
I did not set the time or make any other adjustments.
I have two audiophile friends that have some serious systems. Just to give you an idea, one uses a MacIntosh for a power amp the other a pair of Dynaco's. We tried out my "clocks" and you would not believe the improvement in the listening experience. The sense of space, the clarity of vocal renderings was unreal. You could actually feel the vibration in Pavarotti's throat! It was like he was there in the room breathing.
I won't go into detail just yet but there is a conceiveable reaction between the metallic atoms in the ink of the paper (that's why they need to be orange) and the ground plane of the circuit board in the clock. This experiment seems to prove it out. Too bad i already have a thesis in place but this could be one of my first publications.
Murgatroid: "This experiment seems to prove it out."
Though I can appreciate your efforts, you haven't scientifically proven anything over the typical run-of-the-mill "suggestive", yet unverified (scientific research guidelined approach) claims to have heard "positive" audible differences. If you can get your entire physics class to verify and confirm your findings, you might have a better leg to stand upon. Nothing confrontational implied.
Murgatroid's first thread response. Hmmm, maybe it's time for him to "exit stage left." Although if those procedures weren't plagiarized he deserves high marks for effort.
Do you guys think GeoffKait is basically selling placebo affects? And us skeptical folks won't ever hear it because we don't believe, but that others do, and actually benefit, because of their belief in it?
I wonder how this guy makes money, but he's still on audiogon after all these years, paying for ads, and people keep bidding 30, 40 and 50 dollars for stuff that doesn't cost anything (teleportation tweaks??).
I also wonder if this is just some sick joke, to prove to the world what a bunch of suckers audiophiles are...
Shastkovski was a Belo-Russian brought up in Estonia. His original paper that was cited in the article was written while he was incarcerated on the Kolya peninsula. His work is based on work first pioneered by Nikola Tesla in his later years. String theory had not been discovered when the original paper was written, however applications of string theory to his work have yielded very interesting results.
As to this being my first post - true - i was drawn to this site by discussion of the clocks. Affording great audio equipment is still a few years in my future, but i can't wait! For now i have to live with my Bose wave radio/cd. I expect as i become more familiar with the site i will be posting more.
I admit my "experiment" was far from scientific in execution but the results were phenomenal. I will also admit that my friends had heard of these clocks and when i presented my clocks to them (as early christmas presents) i misrepresented to my friends that they were "originals". They were even more astounded when i revealed the truth.
What i'm really getting at is that you can make these clocks yourself and they really work!
What i'm really getting at is that you can make these clocks yourself and they really work!
I would be all over it, but I lack the means to "bathe them in de-ionized air," as you suggest. Oh well. I guess that's why people pay Geoff Kait the big bucks.
My friends have done some further trials and found that while the de-ionized air adds just that extra bit of piquancy to the sound is is not strictly necessary as long as the sticker is applied directly after removing the unit from it's manufacturing package. The plastic protective sticker that the manufacturer put on the display should be removed slowly to help minimize any triboelectric charge that would build up on the surface of the display. They have also found that possibly green stickers will work even better than the orange ones. Do not use blue or red however. The air de-ionizer is standard equipment for any ESD controlled workstation when you are working with sensitive circuitry. I borrowed mine from the university. (the research grant paid for it)
My little girl loves sticker books. Which ones would you recommend????? Snow White or Mickey Mouse. I think those can realy bring these clock to another level. We can also use them on speakers, cdp etc.....
Murgatroid, the wave radio in conjunction with the cleverly improvised clock will probably yield an audio experience second to none. Don't rush to get into 'serious hi-fi', you're already there.
Derangement Syndrome prompts Loony-Tune to dig up a 1 1/2 decade old thread, through which they emulate their party’s mascot(the JACKASS). HILARIOUS(not to mention: pathetic)!
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