...Or in any preamp that uses the 6SN7 ??
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My experience was with 6SL7’s in my Cayin Integrated Tube Amp A88T. Sounded: Great, terrible, great again, future covered! Made in 2001, I Bought it with used tubes 2019 on eBay with: 4 Gold Aero 6550 power tubes 2 Cayin branded 6SN7 2 Cayin Branded 6SL7 (identical size/appearance to 6SN7s) all tubes tested good and matched strengths on my tube tester when received. sounded darn good, I changed to 4 Matched KT88 Power Tubes, JJ KT88 Blue on sale at Aliexpress, $98. free shipping quad matched $367. I prefer them to 6550 and the amp’s ultra-linear sound to it’s triode option. I also like having the reserve power even though my 16 ohm horn speakers are incredibly efficient. My model, MK1 with 16 ohm taps, has dangerous internal bias adjusters, I paid VAS to do it, luckily I live only 35 minutes from them. MK2 version had meters and external adjusters, but they dropped the 16 ohm taps. ...................................... 2020 Yearly pre-holiday test tubes, all still ok, I mistakenly reversed a 6SL7 and a 6SN7, blew one 6SL7. ........................... tried a pair of matched NOS, from Brent Jesse, 6SL7WGT Sylvania Brownbase, military matched pair. different look chrome top I thought was smart. hated their sound. Brent had me break them in (just leave on for 3 full days, no signal needed, 60+ hrs), still hated them. Exchanged for matched pair of 6SL7GT General Electric, side getters, cylindrical plates, half the price, Brent gave me a full refund, I just paid the shipping. Happy Days returned. Since then, found a pair of used Cayin brand 6SN7 and 1 Cayin 6SL7 on eBay (I still have 1 good one), bought them for future use. ............................................... TUBE LIFE: that’s 18 yr old OEM tubes with good matched strength. Signal tubes can last 10,000 hrs, Every year since 1973 I test all my tubes just before Thanksgiving, problems are more likely a short, occasionally a weak one.
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seems aliexpress half off price is not that good, I got mine in 2020 from TubeDepot |
A friend of mine on another audio forum had gotten out of the 6sn7 business (meaning he no longer has the amp that used a pair of 6sn7s as driver tubes) and he made me an offer I could not refuse on several pairs of used and slightly used vintage 6sn7s. The preamp I use 6sn7s in is a Cary SLP05, and since I only have pairs of these vintage tubes, I am running them in the left & right balanced input sockets. The first pair that turned my head were a pair of Tungsol VT231s; after those I sampled a pair of RCA black glass VT231s, and for quite a while after that I was hooked on those. By no means do I possess the golden ear, but the detail and imaging that I heard with those two tubes in those two sockets was incredible and mesmerized me. A while down the road, my friend did some more house cleaning and sent me several more pairs (some that I haven’t even sampled yet). But the two pair I couldn’t wait to try out were the "Sylvania ’55 Bad Boys" and the National Union 6F8Gs (with adapters). With the "Bad Bots" the presentation struck me as being very up front and direct, and with the National Unions I felt the presentation was laid back and quite smooth. |
60's rock & roll isn't my thing, but I really did like those tubes in the front of my preamap in my system. However, I would have to say that I like both the Sylvania "Bad Boys" and the National Unions better, |
@immatthewj “60's rock & roll isn't my thing”. Beatles, Stones, Zombies, etc., etc., etc. What’s not to like. I guess I’m showing my age 🙃. |
@hifinut51 I also found that the MP3 benefits nicely by upgrading the 12AU7’s. Like most system components in our hobby, synergy is key and the sum of the parts many times exceed individual components. The RCA black plates 12AU7’s are a good example and when paired with the RCA black plate 6SN7 make a very nice combo. |
@elrod did you ever have a problem with the DC offset LED’s staying on when using the Shuguang tubes? I have not tried Shuguang but I have tried other large bottles and in both cases the DC offset LED’s lit up much too much to my liking. Rather than taking a chance I removed them right away, so I don’t know if they might have settled down after a while or if it could have caused a problem. |
@marco1 , I didn't say that there was anything wrong with it, just that it is not what I listen to. now. |
@immatthewj understood, it was meant to be tongue and cheek. Sorry it didn’t come across that way. |
From Don Sachs whose electronics use 6SN7's octal tubes. He has heard most every variant of the tubes and concludes this: "In my gear, I use Linlai e series or the Shuguang WE6SN7plus. The best tube I have ever heard is the new Ray tubes select 6sn7, which is pricey." He is believes these Chinese tubes are superior in SQ to a lot of the pricey NOS tubes. He admits that he has not heard the new WE 300b tubes, which might be better, but are extremely expensive. |
No, the cv181z were always real stable. That being said, the tube pins and socket connections are sensitve - you just couldn't push a tube in and let it roll. Sometime it's needed a VERY MINOR tweek of the tube - adding a little twist, little bit of lean, or just a reseat is all it would bring it in Don't discount the signal tubes either |
No sweat, @marco1 , I didn't take anything negative from it, I was just replying in a neutral tone. But thanks for following up. |
Based upon Don Sach’s recommendation quoted by Whitestix above, I got Ray Reserve 6SN7s for my Valhalla integrated and immediately noticed more detail without any sharpness or glare or the expense of the lushness of tubes. These tubes are expensive and liable to get more expensive if tariffs come to be. There are Ray Select tubes that are about half or less than the Reserve but I haven’t heard them. I found them to be better than the Linlai tubes I had in place. |
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I don’t have an Atma-Sphere preamp, but I do have four different integrated tube amps that run 6SN7 as signal tube and/or driver tube in preamp section in front of EL34, 6550, 6L6, KT-88, 300b or 845, power tubes depending on the amplifier. I have amassed a ridiculous (as in $2k) collection of almost 100 used, NOS, and testing NOS 6SN7s. Here’s how I would rank them in my systems: 1. Sylvania short bottle chrome top 6SN7W from 1945. Best bass, midrange, treble and detail. Simply the best I own. Very rare, very expensive. 2. Tung-Sol brown base 6SN7WGTA 1962. Detail king, great bass, midrange and treble extension, just not quite as magical as the Sylvania above, but a beautiful sounding tube. 3. Tung-Sol black bottle round plate 6SN7GT. Deep extended bass, lush midrange but treble lacking a bit. Not as detailed as the WGTA above. Also very rare and uber expensive, probably not worth the $ in the end. 4. tie Sylvania 6SN7GT “bad boy” T plate, 1951; Tung-Sol 6SN7GT T plate construction same as Sylvania bad boy. Tung-Sol has more detail, but both are very linear with excellent bass, midrange and treble extension. “Sweet” sounding tubes. 5. Raytheon USN brown base 6SN7WGT. A workhorse tube, very clean, linear, detailed tube that sounds like it could live 10,000 hours. Not as magical as those above, but one you could listen to and never tire of. Tight base, balanced midrange and treble. The rest - RCA grey bottle VT-231, very smooth, sweet non-fatiguing tube, another one you could listen to and never tire of. GE 6SN7GTA from 1955, an underrated bargain, very detailed, excellent bass and treble extension, midrange a bit muted, but still a great sounding driver. Finally, the super bargain Russian Foton 6H8C from the mid-fifties. I paid $32 for two pair. A good all-round tube that doesn’t stand out in any category but doesn’t disappoint either. Musical linearity defined. |
For some reason the moderators took down my previous post so I’ll try this again. I tried 4 different pairs of different makes and brands of 6SN7 tubes and the synergy with my MICROZOTL MZ3 Headphone Amp / Preamp / Integrated Amp with the Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boys and/or Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT Bad Boys are some of the best sounding tubes I’ve ever heard. So I finally settled on the Bad Boys. These are the key distinguishing features to recognize a Bad Boy tube. 1) 3 hole black T plates 2) Bottom getter flashing 1/3 way up the tube 3) Shiny silver top and bottom rectangular mica. The top mica has three small triangular edges bent down on each side. 4) Copper grid posts 5) Date code of 2xx(or possibly 1xx or 3xx) were 1, 2 or 3 represent 1951, 1952 or 1953 and xx represents the week. 6) Full black bottom base with Sylvania 6SN7GT and/or Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT in green letters. And yes the Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT with full black bottom base with green lettering are also Bad Boys. So you’ve actually have two options here. 7) Look for the tall bottle versions only. ‘JAN’ stands for ‘Joint Army-Navy’, and was meant to indicate that the tubes labeled as such were ‘passed’ for military use. However, no additional criteria that were not already fulfilled by the 6SN7GT specification were known to have been imposed. ‘JAN’ labeled tubes are identical to non-JAN tubes of the same vintage and construction. Sylvania 6SN7GT and the Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT Bad Boys [3 holes in each plate, copper grid posts, bottom getter, green labels, black base and plates, vertical date code (read from top-down) ‘2xx’ with ‘xx’ representing week #, ’polished’ silvery rectangular mica] The Sylvania 6SN7-GT and the Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT Bad Boys was made from late 1951, week 39 ("1/39") to early 1953, week 13 ("3/13"). They have black T-plates -3 holes, Copper grids, Bottom getter, "polished" rectangular mica, green labels on black base. |
I haven’t heard any of the Chinese tubes recommended by Don Sachs, though I’m tempted now. ;-) My go-to 6SN7’s for both my Williamson amps and my Aikido preamp, are: 1) GE 6SN7GTA or B. Well-made, non-microphonic, consistent. Open, textured sound. Can be had new or test-like-new for around $50. 2) Sylvania 6SN7WGT, with parallel (not angled) plates. Beautiful midrange. Around $75-100 each now, but people pay a lot more than that for new boutique varieties. I currently use the GE’s in the amps, as they are a bit more neutral, and the Sylvanias in the preamp. It’s a nice combination. |
@tyray , my bad--I referred to those Sylvanias as '55 Bad Boys. I just found the email regarding that batch of 6SN7s that the previous owner sent me, and they are ’52 Bad Boys. |
The best 6SN7 we've heard so far is the Linlai. There is a globe variant that I don't think will work as well- the globe resonates easily! Of the NOS tubes the KenRad gets the highest marks. The 12AU7 should not be ignored- it has the bigger effect in the line stage of the MP-3. The best of the NOS tubes has been the Amperex Bugle Boy 7316. The Amperex Bugle Boy 12AU7 is not slouch either. We have some good comments from customers about the Gold Lion reissue 12AU7 and also the Northern Sound 12AU7. We have extended the range of the servo circuit in the MP-3, allowing it to work with a wider range of mismatch in the 6SN7 internal sections. It also reduces the DC Offset at the output by a factor of 10 or more, down to a few fractions of a milliVolt. |
If you can get them, do so. One of the best in my opinion. They are better than the Sylvania VT-231 and other 2 hole Sylvania tubes as well, to me. These are killer Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boys tubes with bass control beyond any other tube. Nowhere will you get the vocal sparkle these give you, believe the hype, these are performers; and their ability to involve the listener in a 3D soundstage we audiophiles love is unmatched. These bad boys are an inexpensive way to vastly improve the sound of your system as they are better than the more expensive Sylvania 1940ish 6SN7GT/6SN7W Metal base versions IMHO, a tube rollers dream. |
I have not had the time to do a direct shootout, but here are my notes. I have an Aric Audio Transcend "Push Pull" EL34 amplifier that uses 3 6SN7s, and also Aric's Motherlode XL preamp which uses 2 6SN7s. VT-231 JAN CBS Hytron 1952 Black Plate Clear Glass - Glorious top end, shimmer, detail, excellent vocals, with controlled if not powerful bottom end, great soundstage 5692 JAN CBS Hytron brown base, short glass 1950s - Very quiet almost black background, detailed, beautiful, great soundstage, tube that I left in for now Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy" 3 hole black plates - Great all around tube, and less expensive than the VT-231s and 5962s. Thoroughly enjoyable, fun, warm but accurate bass, very direct, airy, comfortable, these are excellent in my preamp with my CODA S5.5 SS amp. Linlai E-6SN7 - More of everything except they are quiet tubes. I held off buying these until mid 2024, because I kept hearing others had held off due to quality issues and lack of longevity. Those issues were probably cleared up earlier than that. They took about 100 hours to open up, and a little longer to really shine. Great detail, quick, vocals/midrange are beautiful, bass is tight and faster than other tubes. More "SS like" if there is such a thing, and don't have some of that tubey comfort, from the above and bad boys.....but damn they are awesome, especially in a tube preamp and amp. Ray's Tubes - Like all of you, heard great reviews. Not sure I could stomach $500 a pair for a current production tube, especially when for the same money I could buy a Jan 5962 Red Base or 6SN7GT Black Glass Black Oval plates. I may however order a pair of the Ray's Select 6SN7......food for thought |
@vthokie83 I would definitely like to hear how the Ray Select tubes are as they are about 1/2 or so of the Reserve. I might replace power tubes with Select tubes if they are still better than most of what is out there. |
This thread has been quiet for a while now. It's very difficult to just say which tubes you should use in an MP-3. But I've experimented extensively with 6SN7 tubes in a friend's MP-3, and even more so in my own MP-1 (the latest version with three 6SN7s per channel) and MA-1. In my opinion, there are no "best tubes," and it all depends on musical preference, the overall audio setup, acoustics, and whether you prefer high engagement or a more laid-back presentation. Furthermore, many manufacturers have produced various versions that, in some cases, offer significant differences in sound, spaciousness, engagement, etc. My focus is on the GT tubes because I generally don't consider the later GTA/GTB tubes to be the best audio tubes, but take that comment with a grain of salt. Of course, I haven't heard everything, and I'm happy to be surprised by the opposite. I'll start with a tube that I find particularly beautiful in certain positions: the Russian Melz 6H8C. Melz has produced non-holed, holed, and holed anodes with an additional metal support. All versions are fantastic, in my opinion, but you have to be very careful about which combinations you make with them. The holed version combines beautifully in the second position with my favorite musical Sylvania GT Bottom Getter in the first position (viewed from the front) in the preamp. It's as if the Sylvania gets a shot of nitroglycerin. You retain the many advantages of the Sylvania combined with the warm and full sound of this Melz. Incidentally, I find that too cool in my setup, so I use a particularly warm tube in the third position, such as the RCA gray/black fully coated version from '40 (first version). For me, this provides a nice balance as a starting position for the MA-1. In my MA-1, a Linlai E on the left rear works wonders. If you're looking for engagement, this is a really great tube. This tube simply does a lot well, at least that's my opinion. I thought I'd never say that about a new production tube. (Ralph, thanks for the tip). In the MP-1, I couldn't get the Linlai to work properly, but that might just be me. Back to the Melz; don't think for a moment that the Melz-hole version would be suitable on the right rear for the same trick as in the MP-1. This combination really produces too much bloom in the midrange/low end, completely destroying the transparency and detail. This combination isn't a 1+1=2. A Melz '50 (Short Bottle) without gun holes does exactly what it should. This tube is much more linear, detailed, and also powerful, and keeps the low end nicely under control. Starting from this foundation, you can then further refine things in the third position (center left in my version). If you want a 3D image (great for classical music), plug in a Sylvania GT Bottom Getter or a genuine Chrome Top from the same manufacturer. If you're looking for more engagement (great for jazz/singer-songwriters), you can try the various Tung Sol GTs with T-plates here. The TS Short Bottle T-plates Grey is hot; for me, it clearly reveals the transients. Sometimes right up to the edge and sometimes just over the edge with percussion like bongos, congas, and piano with lots of hard hits on the right side. I've managed to track down about 9-10 versions of the TS, of which I just bought 5 to try and reach the "sweet spot," which, like the Holy Grail, obviously doesn't exist. I'm right there, and with a bit more warmth and pressure in the midrange and a bit less high notes, the system would sound even more homogeneous. If you want to have Jimi Hendrix playing your ear off for an evening, try a Foton '50 with ribbed anodes. It's a rough guy, but on some nights with a bottle of whiskey... In short, there are many combinations, but first of all, don't believe all the general rumors on the internet. Some tubes suddenly get hyped, and the next year, the same "super" tube falls from grace, as I saw with the TS GT Roundplate. I read in several places that the Sylvania VT231 doesn't sound as good as a regular Sylvania GT with a Bottom Getter, or even worse than the version with three holes in the anode. It's all bullshit; they're structurally the same and sound virtually identical, and if there are even small, insignificant differences, they can be attributed to, for example, batch variations. Make sure you have a wide selection of tubes and work systematically, keeping track of the "logical" configurations you've tried in a spreadsheet or notepad. Use your ears, don't pay too much attention to the forums, and put in several months of generous passion, and you'll be rewarded with a satisfying result. Don't let bad-sounding combinations hold you back, because you're guaranteed to encounter them, but one day that aha moment will come! |
A Single Tube in a Circuit is reasonably easy to work with to find a End Sound that has improved attraction. Multiple Tubes in a Circuit and to found in other Circuits presents a more difficult challenge, think of the Circuit as one large Tube with parts. What is looking to be discovered is the best configuration of Parts, which is most beneficial to the End Sound produced by the entirety of the Tube Circuit, Turnover off Valve Types is crucial to achieve this, and not many are in that position to create the available experiences. |
Of course, a 6SN7 GTA can be a good fit in a given situation. It all depends on the other components of the setup, preferences, acoustics, etc. A SET or a PushPull have a completely different set of requirements, as the power transformer is already a source of timbre. An OTL is a completely different world; the sound has to come from the tubes. I've been working with these OTLs for about 17 years now, and my journey has also been one of trial and error. As Pindac also indicates, a single-tube setup is simpler, but this comment deserves some qualification. With an MP-3, it's much easier to determine the character of a 6SN7 tube because it only uses one pair. But that's also its limit. My best experience there is with a Sylvania GT Bottom Getter (VT231 is still reasonably affordable), which delivers a lot but, to my ears, doesn't yet have the right timbre on its own in an OTL. Incidentally, the 12AU7 also plays an important role here, but a good, silent NOS is difficult to find. It's important to consider the power amplifier in your approach. With solid-state, it is what it is. But if you have an M60, you can further build on what the MP-3 delivers. My strategy is to ensure the preamplifier is perfectly matched in terms of sound, spatiality, and detail with the right tubes. Slam and engagement don't play a (major) role in my approach there. I address those in the power amplifier. The more tubes in the chain that determine the sound, the more compositional possibilities you have to achieve the desired result. With a combination of an MP-1 Mk. 3.3 (latest update) and an MA-1 Mk. III, you have six tubes that significantly determine the sound. On the one hand, that's fantastic, but on the other, it presents a complex challenge. Whether it's an M60 or another Atma-Sphere amplifier, based on my strategy, the engagement, slam, and experience (where you're sitting in the concert hall) should be created there. Regardless of which Atma-Sphere power amplifier model you use, I would recommend using a Linlai GT E and, in the case of the M60, completing the process with a second tube. With the MA-1, you have two tubes to do that. Pindac rightly points out that not many have the necessary tubes for such an experiment, at least if I'm interpreting his/her comment correctly. But I think that if you have an MP-3/M60, and especially an MP-1/MA-1, such a setup deserves a carefully selected set of tubes. That's the corresponding investment. Not everyone will be as crazy as I am to amass a tube collection that now represents the value of a small car. But perhaps there are enthusiasts nearby who could borrow some things and/or try them out together. In the Netherlands, as a hobby, I'm willing to occasionally visit an Atma-Sphere owner with my tubes by appointment. |
My Pre Amp to be commission designed / built by my Power Amp' designer / builder over 20 years separate,. Is Pre Amp' Design to deliver a range of influences on the System End Sound. Two Tube Types are to be used as independent channels and a SS Channel is added as well. Variable Gain is also an option I have selected. When it comes to Valves to be trialed, I have been very fortunate, I have a decent measured selection that extends from the 1940's to the 00's A friend has a substantial selection of Valves from Two Generations of collectors. Loaned Valves always measure above factory Spec". These are Tip Top always close matched on each halve. Making a change to an End Sound by changing a Tube is for everybody with a Valve to be changed Transforming a System to one that is unrecognisable, where the betterment is judged by End Sound and Gape of the Dropped Jaw, as a result of creating a permutations throughout a system. This is a gift belonging to only a few. Such changes when created are imagined as being unsurpassable.
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Pindac, I can't speak for your system, of course, but I can tell you that with a little patience, you can make an Atma setup sound so amazing that people wonder how the music is actually being played live for them. And they'll be shocked when someone goes wild on a drum kit, etc. Believe me, there's nothing exaggerated about that. Or the voices can be so tangible that if you stretch your arms, you can almost touch the artist. But that, of course, depends on many factors. I truly believe that with some time and effort, anyone can deliver a performance that ranges from acceptable to truly exceptional. |
I've spent a fair bit of time experimenting with 6SN7s in my MA-60. After considerable trial and error, I've settled on Ray's select in the back outside positions (very alive and clear tubes without a hint of etch or grain), a sylvania chrome dome in the center back position (smooth and clear), and am currently running some NOS tung sols in the front position (very detailed and realistic). I have a number of Sylvania and RCA tubes that I cycled through before landing on this combination. I am going to try a pair of Linlai in the front positions, because why not?
I agree with revinylized that the Atma-Spheres can sound glorious with the right combination of tubes and associated equipment.
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I haven't tried the Ray, so I have no idea or opinion about it. The Linlai fits well into my setup and what I want to achieve overall. Of course, there are many ways to Rome. In my MA-1, I've combined it with the Melz ribbed anodes (without the holes), as mentioned above. I'm experimenting with the third one. On Monday, I'll be getting a TS T-Plates with black coated anodes for a bit more rounded tones and a slightly warmer midrange. I still have a few candidates for this position, which will put me at the front of the concert hall. |
