What's happened to the used high end market recently?? Sales are tough....:0(
The heading says it all!! What do you guys think is the reason that the sales in the used high end market have gone soft?? Prices too high? Economy too slow?? Stock market too volatile?? Something else??
Awesome thread! I also participate in the muscle car hobby and the toy train hobby and the sentiments expressed here regarding HEA are pretty much identical to those expressed by participants in those hobbies.
The world, for whatever reason, doesn't have "time" for leisure activities and hobbies much these days. Naturally, the 5%er's can and will do whatever they want, and they are the supporters for HEA given that amps are now $60K and up a pair and speakers run $200,000/pr.
The 5%er's make up a bit over 8 million Americans, and evidently we have so many billionaires around the world today that such items only have to sell a few copies to pay for their overall costs.
The same is true for cars; old Mustangs (!), one of the chintziest cars ever made--I drove them--sell for millions today. The interesting thing is that you can buy almost 100% of the parts to build your own today, and some people do. Some of us think it is hysterical. A Ferrari just sold for $70 million. Evidently some people have more $$ than brains, but it is their $$, I suppose. Please don't get me started on "hemi" cars and all the foolishness that goes on with them. Three million for a '71 hemi convertible?? It was not much of car when it was built, so...
Even first-class toy steam engines list for over $2000.00+ today, and this is a HOBBY that no one needs.
The most precious commodity in today's world is time--at least in America where vacations are taboo, working 24/7/365 for no $$ is required by even the lowest paid workers, and we have no idea what enjoying life is about. My personal opinion is that the accumulation of cash is the only goal that is presented in today's world that is worthwhile. Only "winners" matter, and that takes full-time dedication to amassing as many dollars as possible--no time for leisure. Executives EXPECT workers to be on the job even when they are sleeping.
SO, buying expensive gear to sit down and listen to music??? You should be at the gym or working or both at the same time or you will be beat out for that rare promotion--no more $$ of course--and you will be a loser.
Of course this is an exaggeration, however even though many people do have some leisure time today, evidently the home theater experience is more popular than the "listening to music" experience with most families. Is there a high-end dealer who does NOT sell theater gear? I doubt they would stay in business long if they did not, and booming bass and super loud music and dialogue are the desired elements there. Go to the movies and you will see that this is the experience people want to reproduce in their homes now. There will always be a small group of audio hobbyists--just not as many as before, so everyone will have to change with the times or cease to be in business.
Sorta related, I remember last time the economy was good like this, "vintage guitars" were a thing, going up in price, and many buying driving up the price, even thinking of them as commodities, and paying money as though the price would always increase.
Then, the housing crisis, and it was a wake up call as to what are actually commodities. Turns out, no one really NEEDS guitars. The market for guitars tanked back to where it was.
The point: what someone pays is definitely not an indication of what something could be worth.
vintage audio sales ROCK non-stop -- that's why. It's a very competitive industry to home hi-end that has a possibility to purchase restored components that are substantially better in built quality and performance. population ain't lying compared to audiophiles -- that's basically and practically why. checked my math and everything adds up to my statement quantitatively.
Venture capitalist bought a lot of the high end companies. They really are not audiophiles. Overpriced gear that doesn’t perform. Then there is a lack of knowledge on how to put systems together. Guy spends 50k on a rig then hears a 8 to 10k rig that blows his stuff away. I remember blowing 4 k on a underperforming CD player. After I bought it the guy who sold it to me didn’t want to replace the remote when the numbers started peeling. Wow then I wanted a warm sounding player he sold me the bright sounding player. Just didn’t give a damn. That was in my early Audio years. I’ve learned so much in the last 10 years. You have to know what you are looking for. There are less physical places to listen now. The guys who do it for the love of it are leaving. I love audio. I couldn’t sell crap to a guy just to sell it. We are losing those who love this obsession to those who are obsessed with only money!
I had an Auralic Vega listed recently here for $1950 (it had an original price of $3495). It was less than a year old and almost mint. 2 sold on on eBay for about/above my asking price. Most of the offers I received (here) were in the $950 to $1250 range. I had one legitimate/reasonable offer but buyer was Canadian and shipping/customs was prohibitive so it didn't pan out. Other than that offers weren't fair. That is second audio piece within year that I ended up selling locally because I couldn't get a reasonable offer here on Audiogon. On another note, I have noticed that listings on Facebook Marketplace get much more attention than Craigslist.
Jimman2, thank you for the shared knowledge of Facebook marketplace... good stuff.
Back to the main topic: It has been fairly common the past 2 years or so for pro reviewers to mention how revolutionary the difference in available quality sound per dollar is today compared to 10 yrs ago. While there has always been great sound at a value available, now it is more common, whereas 5-10 yrs ago you had to be well read and an educated buyer to peg those values in quality sound. I would dare to venture that there was even a much higher degree of buyers remorse 5-10 yrs ago than now, as one is less likely to go wrong these days. In my eye this development in quality jump across rhe specteum seemed to occur from 7 yrs ago thru 5 yrs ago, with an explosion in the past 4-5 yrs. That being said, it stands to reason that the used audio of 4, 6, 8, 10 yrs ago would take a substantial hit in used value given the quality available at reasonable prices today. That being mostly true, there then perhaps developed a general market sense that most all used should come cheap, and we see lowball offers left and right driving down valuations of even truly good products.
A few examples would be, just look at the stellar reviews of emotiva products and the price point emotiva can be had for new; then there's products like monoprice monolith 7... $1400 for a product directly compared to $2500 outlaws and emotiva; or bookshelf speakers for $300-800 with rave reviews from elac, kef, etc; golden ear bass aplomb with seriously overzealous (imo) accolades and awards ... but tied to insanely obtainable price points; Tekton DI for $3k; entry level maggies for 800 ... SVS subs for 1200 that match the best of the best $3-5k subs from 7 yrs ago.. With new products like those and a Bluetooth era generation that have now come into their own, whose paying $500 for the used PS Audio SC power cable that was $1000 3 yrs ago, when they can buy new Jenvings Supra power cables on ebay with rave professional reviews for $75? ..
Reviews might drive the market for some to most ...but it’s the listening on one’s own that counts.
But, such a reasonable statement does not affect a principally review driven market, where physical audition has gone the way of the dodo bird.
The proffered highly reviewed device.. may not be the best suited for the end buyer who buys by the review, and they’ll never know anything about that.
In the end, advertising might and reviews win out, except for the wise, observant and the intrepid.
What this means, is that, the final zero sum mean...is..mediocre gear tends to be the biggest selling and most highly praised gear.
Especially when we get to the most expensive items. Having money does not automatically infer a superior hearing ability and mindset for discerning quality audio. There is some tendency in that direction, but only some.
eg, in the world of cycling, the vast number of extremely expensively outfitted bicycles are sold to people who really can’t ride them. Same for golf clubs, extreme cars, and so on.
Perfection is not even close to being the market norm or center. When Richard Feynman was asked to explain His Nobel to a reporter, Feynman's replay was: I was given the Nobel because I can't explain it to you.
The same goes for true perfectionist audio, compared to the mean of the market.
sfcfran - I totally agree. I had higher expectations mostly because the Vega is still currently sold/produced, and although the retail price is still $3495 it is always on sale now for $2799. My asking price point was about 1/3 lower than the current price and I was trying to net about half of current MSRP. When I look to buy
a used item that is still in current production, I don't expect to get it for 50-60% off and I'm not seeing those kinds of offers here or on eBay. If you believe what you read the Vega compares favorably to the $5-6K DACs sold a couple years back.
teo_audio - you are right on that it is near impossible to audition many of these high end items even at the dealers that carry them. I bought the Vega from an Auralic dealer but they didn't have one set up to audition and they had to order it for me. I bought strictly off internet reviews. I was not unhappy with the unit at all (other than I did not like it's aesthetics) - I sold it because I had sold my Cary CD/DAC player a year earlier and almost immediately regretted it - I recently came across (locally) another Cary CD Player/DAC and went that direction. For my ears the DACs that Cary designs in their CD players are as good as it gets in my price range.
Another consideration is this: ever notice how stock in dollar store goes up in a recession when all the other retailers go down? It’s about affordability and penny pinching in troubled times, amd comfort in spending in good times. Better example might be the used car market. In the last recession auto manufacturers couldn’t sell new cars to save their lives and put in huge rebates to try and get it moving....didn’t help...so they cut back massively on units built tI’ll things recovered. During that time auto zone and other parts stores were busy as could be, amd used car values were going UP. My point is, in good times people will buy new audio gear if they need it, amd if they have real money, they will buy new if they want it. But in troubled economic times, the market will move somewhat to used audio. Not to the extent of cars, as that is a necessity, but to a notable extent in its own right. All of our responses here have merrit, and no 1 thing is responsible for what is happening....it is all of these things over the past 5 years building into 1 perfect storm we are now seeing.
I have a small retail business for past 2 years - I am still not sure if the economy all that good despite the stock market - lol. There are at least 2 types of high end audio equipment buyers (and this mimics our society) - those that have enough money that it does not matter what the cost of the equipment is and those (such as myself) that enjoys the hobby but cannot afford most new equipment or even most of the used equipment. So for me the status of the economy is irrelevant. As an example - I may have $8K (which is a lot of money to most of us) to spend on my entire system. In my instance I Iook for highly regarded used equipment that is 3-5 years old - maybe 90% of current technology but at 30-40% of current price. You can build a nice system that way (you can end up with $20-25K equipment for that budget) - but always be a few years behind current, and that is very important to many. If I had $15K to spend I might buy used equipment 1-2 years old, or using the same thoughts end up with used equipment that had original prices of $40K.
I'm definitely there with you on that jimman. With the exception of the about to happen electrical feed upgrades I'm working on, and my disc spinner, everything in my system is preowned, bank auctioned or maufacturers close out. Now if only we could turn a new generation on to the same, we'd effectively abolish the topic of this thread
elizabeth... I've used some real price examples and don't think the stuff I've tried to sell has been overpriced (not that you are implicating me). If something has sold several times on eBay at $1900 I think I should be able to reasonably expect $1700 here - taking into consideration the potential problems with eBay sales and fees, etc. That is a fair expectation in the tight knit audio loving community that we are - lol. And conversely I'll gladly pay 50% for an item that is as new and is still current. You don't
(typically)
get anywhere near that type of price from a dealer .
I've been a member for many years and have sold and bought a decent amount of gear under this handle. That said and while I appreciate the polish that the publisher has made to the site, people and dealers who now see this as a new retail store have pushed prices to the point that it makes almost no sense to buy.
Always had a great experience, but the BS being pushed by sellers is getting foolish. Used gear is what it is...used. Babied, non smoking and pet free----who cares. Like these sellers never turned on their gear and cranked it or they live in a hermetically sealed ecosystem.
Sort of ruined the experience for me to the point that even looking bothers me. I love vinyl but guys, come on...none of these turntables are worth what people are asking. Speakers- right, only played at a whisper for 18 hours.
Its cool with me if you think this is the new norm, but i'm not buy-in it, literally.
Hello! You guys are leaving out Generation X. Boomers complaining about Millennial's LOL These are your children! Plenty of Audiophile Gen X's around but yes I've seen plenty of my friends (non-audiophiles) go from decent stereo's to sound bars & mp3's. I have collected all of their LP's since the early 90's since they gave up vinyl for cd's & cd's for mp3's. I've reached a certain point now that for me to move up I need to hit the used market.
Price is definitely part of it. I see vintage speakers listed at higher speakers than they were listed/selling for back in 2008-2010. One one end there's been a lot of inflation, on the other end a lot of people don't believe in paying more for the same thing or something that's even more depreciated 10 years later.
There is also a risk factor... if I buy new from a store I may be able to negotiate a price and try it at home. no risk
If I buy new from an internet dealer.. I can pay a few hundred dollars... or less and return it if I don’t like it. minimal risk
If i buy a used item that lists for $1000 and pay $650 (35% discount) and don’t like it... I own it and have to resell it.... but the risk/loss is a lot less painful than a 35% discount on $5000 piece... so, to take the risk on a high price unit... the market wants a bigger discount.
Some sites were over-protective of buyers. I understand that there are questionable selling practice by some.
But at the same time, I dealt with more and more buyers whose expectations were unrealistic. Expect everything perfect, a tiny thing you missed or not pictured perfectly, you would be coined a liar. Full refund and dispute and all. Always haggle about shipping cost (which is a lot nowadays). One time, an RCA input wire got loose --- the buyer didn’t wanna connect it back himself, he doesn’t want hire a local guy to put the wire back --- they demand the unit fully refunded at my expense, or ship to the original factory to put the wire back. Yea.
I started to encountered a few who falsifying operating condition just to file a claim to force refund. Paypal’s policies made it worst (a little better if you’re selling in eBay). Some would try saving return shipping by using flimsy boxes to cut weight, instead of using the original factory boxes. That usually end up damaging the working items (and make the situation even worst against the seller)!
The other not so obvious thing is ... my stuff is mostly tubes, and I seriously doubted people know how to operate them. Some are like big spenders who wanna get into this cool hip retro thing, and is completely clueless about its safe operation. If I am selling something modern, idiot proof like Ayon or Music Reference, great, but any vintage, or DIY stuff or un-even QA stuff (VAC, Counterpoint), I would get a return request 9 out of 10 times.
Would giving away my used stuff to avoid such hassle help? Not really. Some of my friends felt I was forcing my "trash" down their throat. They do not appreciate my good will at all. Even those "charities" become so nit-picking ... anything that look old, they would refuse pickup (seriously).
I am resorting to yard sale sometimes, simply trash them thru recycle some other times, unless the items are working great and worth serious cash to go thru the used market sale, and I don’t wanna ship anymore.
Not because of risk of shipping damage, but to avoid abusive, nit-picking buyers.
Audiophile hobby is linked to "music" in the higher sense of the word,then to some education of the ears....Now people like more gadgets,games, series, horrible music, and they have no need for concentration of the mind and the ears in one single direction... " "Beauty" "Truth" are words without no more meanings other than their old fashioned sounds...People dont want to stay still they want to play...My rant reveal my age I am afraid so...
I have been a dealer for Jolida / Black Ice Audio gear for 15 years. Sales have been on the decline for 5 or 6 years. For the past 6 months or so sales have been almost 0. If I am not selling any gear then the other dealers are not selling either. Audio gear sales are down as sales are down for almost all durable goods. Money is tight. Also, today one can buy a very decent amp for $600 - Yamaha, Marantz, Denon, Onkyo. All built to last years. Get one of these and some good speakers and almost anyone would be satisfied. And one can buy a decent set of speakers new for 2k or less.
Do you believe it is the broad audio industry suffering or more isolated to certain brands? The reason I ask is I am aware of several manufacturers, electronics as well as speakers, having their best year ever in 2021 following a record 2020.
The audio market is hot in some areas, and cold in others. Majority of gear that churns in & out of the audiogon classified listings is probably on the "cold" side.
Very good sounding modestly priced products continuously undercut the value of the uber expensive "high end" gear. Fewer and fewer people want that big heavy high price tag stuff even if they could have it for an affordable price. But those who spent big bucks on expensive new gear do not want to take a loss. There are more very good sounding affordable and practical commodity items these days than ever before starting with a smart phone with streaming app and headphones that most already have and on up. Greatly beats the transistor radio, portable cassette player, and stereo phonograph that I started with as a kid for sound quality.
Also when buying used the buyer assumes a fair amount of risk when buying expensive items. Many things can go wrong that seriously undercut the value of what one buys used and repairs may take forever and be quite expensive as well. A money pit! Better off buying through a reliable intermediary who will certify and support used gear bought for some period of time initially.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
