@lak I'm using a Silver Circle Audio Vesuvius. |
timztunz; Excellent! Let me know how you like it after you get a few hours on it. What power cord are you planning to use on the preamp?
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@lak Since your response was really the only one with real world experience with the same amp I took your advice and got a new Allnic L-3000 Mk II. Even with only about 40 hours on it I am simply ecstatic. Thanks again for the solid advice! |
Good luck with it, I heard great sounds in the Care Audio room at the NYC audio show in 2014 where they featured Allnic equipment. It was very impressive.
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@melbguy1 You have an interesting perspective. But I was never suggesting a $20k preamp. I was asking for suggestions comparable to an ARC Ref 5SE which is $13k new. So with the Plinius total investment would be in the $33k-$35k range for amp and preamp. While I'm sure the Vitus SIA-025 integrated is a very good piece of gear, I'm not sure I would consider it at $27k and only 25 watts of Class A power compared to the other gear.
@stringreen I don't remember if it was here or not but someone did mention Ayre and I did look at them. But in the end went with the Allnic. |
I'm quite surprised no one mentioned Ayre preamps.
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If AR would be a stunning brand and would be able to show all the parts what makes highend unique and impressive it would be a different story.
The people who own AR will not be happy abouth the things I said. I can understand that.
But what would you prefer to hear? The truth or the things you would like to hear.
A name or brand does not garantee you anyything. But the best sound and quality by research and shootouts does. This is how we work.
Foccusing on the best possible instead of a brand. |
@timztunz, I was just suggesting that yes, to a point it is worthwhile adding a very good tube preamp. But there is no point throwing a $20k tube linestage at your Plinius amp as imho there are better integrated amps such as the ones I mentioned. I own a Vitus SIA-025 and came from Boulder 1000 series amps as my reference point.
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Good is often based on a persons frame of Reference. |
Bo1972
we are in golden age of quality and choice..never have we had such great selection of caps, res, transformers, wire, etc in components and a wide variety of price points. REF 5 SE blows away my SP-6 of old..
you might be right about the kids and ten years out..but this is good RIGHT now. |
There are many these days. It's a sad thing. It is in different price ranges.
The thing I don't like is that they use their name from the past. I can name a lot more. These days the words honesty and respect are hard to find in the world of audio.
The focus is only based on money and personal benefit. In Munic during the higend show we saw how worse the level of highend is these days.
And in the mid level it ain't different. It will influence the future of audio a lot. I think many people are not aware of it now. At the end they will, and then it is too late.
They need to focus more on the youth, the quality does not affect them. And you can't blame them.
In 5-10 years the world of audio will be a lot different than today. |
Bo1972,
If what you say is true does that mean Mcintosh is also using cheaper parts. They are both owned by the same company. |
Oregonpapa,
The last 2 years Randy used the Vandersteens amps. I think they were designed around their statement speakers. |
To go back to the original question, I must say I do like the ARC Ref 5SE, but not the price. I believe ARC do better Power than Pre Amps, just my view. The Ref 75SE I use, is remarkably good.
Some excellent suggestions re alternative Pre Amps, one I haven't seen is the Modwright 36.5, which I use with the Ref 75 now. I think it is clearly better than the ARC Ref 3 and the 2 box version of the 36.5 is definitely better than the single chassis 36.5 I have. I haven't heard them side by side, but I think the 2 box Modwright will be better than the 5SE and a good bit cheaper, plus the company is great to deal with. |
Oregonpapa, your second paragraph directly above puts it perfectly!
J. Gordon Holt's first priority in music reproduction was lack of "vowel" colorations, followed by degree of transparency (concepts borrowed from photography---vowel colorations equating to inaccurate color temperature, and transparency to a high-resolution camera lens). Harry Pearson greatly valued the ability to create a three-dimensional image of an instrument, a voice, or an orchestra on a stage. Art Dudley values none of those nearly as highly as a system's ability to provide the forward momentum of music, it's "temporal" characteristic, feeling that Gordon and Harry's concerns relate to a static object, ignoring the inherent fluid nature of music, it's most important characteristic. Lots of audiophiles crave maximum low-level detail, it seems.
I can't fault any of them! But mine is "immediacy" and lightning fast micro-dynamics, the quality I find most lacking in music reproduced. Like everyone says, you can tell music is live from a block away from a stage, no matter the absence of imaging, or the amount of coloration from the live sound reinforcement system. I look for gear that does THAT the best, like the direct-to-disc LP, electrostatic loudspeakers (or horns, but they are just SO colored!), and the Decca/London phono cartridge. All of those have severe limitations and failings of their own, but you STILL can't have it all, no matter how much you spend. To each his own! |
@bo1972 you have not added even one shred of value to this discussion. You have attempted to dominate someone else's thread, looking for real advice, with constant negativity about one brand in particular without ONCE offering an alternative.
But thank you to everyone else who offered advice and worthwhile opinions. I went with the Allnic L-3000 Mk II. |
The same group that now owns McIntosh. So according to your opinion McIntosh is also using "cheaper parts"? You are really holding a grudge against Audio Research aren't you? How long did you sell their products? |
There is a new company who owns AR these days. They are responsible for the cheaper parts they use. Beside this the reliability is also not of the same quality anymore.
These things are more common these days, and that is not a good thing in the world of audio. We see it at all price ranges.
Audio is getting a hard time since 2008. It is a lot more difficult to compete these days. Beside this we see that the youth is less interested in better audio quality.
The positive thing is however that techniques improve and in some ways you get a higher level for less money than in the past. |
Tsushima1 sez ...
"Does your frame of reference extend to ARC Ref40 or Ref10?"
Exactly! The closest I've heard to real organic music from a stereo system was in the Optimal Enchantment room at the Newport show three years ago. Randy was using all of the very best gear ARC offers including the phono stage. It was amazing ... and I almost took out a second mortgage on the house. The last two years, they used amps from a different Mfg and in my opinion, the magic was gone.
One thing to keep in mind is the fact that no matter how much we spend on equipment, or what our biases are, we are trying to reproduce music through electronic devices. In all cases, we are fooling ourselves. So ... we have to try to try to select the equipment that "fools" us the best. A lot of it is subjective and a matter of taste. My "right" doesn't necessarily make your "right" wrong ... and visa versa. |
Ok, at the risk of waking up "you know who" I want to tell you where I'm at now with my thinking and see what you more knowledgeable people have to say.
1) Right, wrong or indifferent I do think I'm set on trying a tube preamp with my solid state
Plinius SA-Reference.amp. So we can stop discussing solid state amps for now.
2) When I asked for "contenders" to the ARC Ref 5SE I should have been more clear that I meant "somewhere in the similar price range". While I'm sure some of the pieces suggested are just phenomenal, some of them are 2-3 times the price range indicated.
3) That being said and all other things being equal (same room, same other gear, same cables, etc.) which of the following 3 choices do you think is going to throw the widest, deepest, tallest sound stage and provide the most distinctive image?
ARC Reference 5SE
Allnic L-3000 Mk 2
VAC Renaissance Mk3
Thank you for participating. |
I find ARC tubes to be not quite as transparent as the best ss, but almost always sounding more like live music to me. I call it the breath of life. That's what makes one a tube vs ss fan. I can, of course, understand the ss point of view. Neither view is the "right" one. One chocolate, the other vanilla. |
@minorl I wish it were as simple as "listen for yourself". For some of us that is simply not possible. There is no place to do that, and certainly not in my own space with my own gear. That's why we wade through all of this and try to make the best decision we can before we vote with our $. |
@bo1972 Ok, ok. Your points are more than well documented by now. You are now just bothersome. You might be a nice enough person but here you're coming off condescending and rude. I would be happy if you just moved on, please. You are having 100% no bearing on my decision.
@minorl Oddly enough Plinius recommends their own brand. The price point was pretty much set when I asked for contenders TO the 5SE. Sure, I would consider used. So if the 5SE sells for $13k new I would like other recommendations somewhere in that range. Then I would consider used of those same brands/models, ergo "apples to apples". |
Just a general question.
What does Plinius recommend as a compatible pre-amp to use with their amp?
That to me is a really good metric to use also. and a good place to start looking/listening.
Of course there are pre-amps that are better than the AR REF 5SE just like there are many that aren't.
First, are you taking used? I guess you are since the 5SE is discontinued. So, the price point within the test range should be the used (blue book) price for a REF 5SE. I would bet a lunch, that you would be really hard pressed to find a pre-amp, used or new that can out perform the used REF 5SE within that price point.
So, are we talking apples to apples? or apples to oranges?
It is decidedly unfair to compare components within different price points.
This is why AR has the REF 10 and 40th anniversary editions. They are better than the 5SE.
So, when you take what everyone has said previously, keep in mind what your price point/range really is. I would also bet that if Ralph (Atmosphere) threw away the budget, he could design/build a pre-amp that would absolutely kill the REF 5SE. Hell, I would even bet that his current pre-amp at that level is close to or better than the REF 5SE.
Engineering is engineering.
I could list many pre-amps that I believe are better than the REF 5SE, but at that price point, it would be much harder. But, they still exist.
enjoy, but set a price point (used or new) and listen for yourself). |
Smoke, Mirrors and Evasion!!! |
I remember going into different "brick and mortar" dealers and when I asked about a product they didn't carry, if they "bashed it" that was an indication that they had that product taken away from them, or didn't get the product. I would politely listen and then leave. I recall a few years ago there was a JL Audio thread regarding the Fathom subwoofer on another well known forum where the posts from ONE member were always negative. There is an agenda it seems? |
I am not against tubes, I used tubes as well in the past. I auditioned many sets with tubes what I liked a lot.
The only remark I made is that when the sound becomes more complete the quality and even the emotion in music can reach a higher level.
Our focus is more on sound and image. We use the properties of brands and products to create 'our' sound.
We create 'our' sound by Total Sound. This means that we collect and combine all the different properties togheter.
So what is 'our'sound?
Our sound is an intimate 3 dimensional image what is build from a black center with a very involving and diverse middle freq.
You also can use tubes for the way we work. I think you create a better end result in sound when you use SS and tubes togheter! |
When you prefer a more tube sound, I would use A tube pre amp with a Pass Labs power.
Why?
Because the Pass labs will give you more control, speed, details and more deversity in the middle freq.
When we audition tube amps it is always very easy to hear shortcomings. I always say; I would never choose for shortcomings when I can get a more complete sound.
Audio magazines get money from manufacturers so they can exist. Ever person understands this. But....there is a big but.....
They will not tell you which tools are superior to tools which they also reviewd. This is the thing we don't like. We prefer shootouts of the best students of the class.
I am not here to say which products and brands are inferior. This is not up to me. But in 17 years of time I auditioned hundreds of sets. In many situations the endresults are not that good.
This is based on the fact that they often use inferior products. Beside this they use tools which do not own all the parts of what we call; Total Sound. Incomplete sound is less involving and less exiting.
When you are aware of properties you will understand better how the stage and sound of your set is being build! |
Quite Taters...I fear the whiff of disgruntled ex dealer doth pervade the airs!
Viz: "I sold AR for over 6 years of time. When I should
sell it again, it would be time to look for another job"
It is a shame when a fellow merely seeking balanced advice and guidance falls foul of those who would seek to use such a thread for their own ends.
A simple Google search throws up several instances where Pass Labs and ARC products are run together in harmony, some instances of folk running both companies products as user alternatives due to the relative strengths and nuances offered.
Some instances where some folk have prefered Pass Labs to ARC and Vice versa, however such a preference would appear to be a close run thing for the most part, and certainly nowhere even close to the skewed rhetoric espoused by Bo1972!
All that aside, this thread is more than merely ARC Vs Pass Labs, as referenced by several respondents recommending a number of excellent high quality viable alternatives offering a 'nuanced' reference level of sound reproduction, which in the end, may well be decided upon as much in terms of the Cost, the Aesthetic, the Practicalities of SS Vs Valve, and arguably the most pertinant point to consider, that of System Impedance and Synergy. |
Though not as trendy or talked about and owned here as those already mentioned, there is always the EAR-Yoshino 912 (the only pre Art Dudley likes in some ways more than his Shindo), or it's little brother the 868. |
I would recommend a used darTZeel NHB-18NS. not cheap but likely close to the price range. it's battery powered, Swiss built like a tank, very low noise, and has a great phono stage standard. and it's sound is very natural and smooth and so gets close to tubes in many ways.
did I say it's very low noise! and very dynamic.
and it can be upgraded to the super duper newer version of the dart preamp if you want to step up. |
So Bo, what tube gear does your "firm" recommend? |
I don't know why anyone would expect a balanced perspective from someone who posts nothing but single-ended infomercials! |
The thing in audio is; when you focus and test many different tools at different price levels you will find out that over 95% of all products in audio is not that special or worth it's money.
When you fully focus on quality there are many products which are inferior compared to the best. These products are still being sold. I always have been amazed about all those products which are just average. |
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Tsushima1,
I am sure he thinks those are crap to. He obviously doesn't like ARC. |
Merely a couple of folk, of no consequence or experience, that hold a markedly different perspective of ARC products, your scribblings are beginning to appear somewhat 'Agenda ' driven.
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/audio_research_reference_10.htm
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audio-research-40th-anniversary-edition-reference-preamplifier-tas-209/
http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/audio-research-reference-250-monoblock-amplifiers/
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/audio_research_reference_250.htm
http://www.tonepublications.com/review/audio-research-ref-250-monoblocks/
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audio-research-reference-250-monoblock-amplifier/
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The Plinius has a balanced input. Here is a brief list that might suit:
Atma-Sphere MP-1 or MP-3
BAT Vk51
Aesthetix
Einstein 'the Tube'
Allnic L5000DHT
You are not limited to balanced operation however- preamps that easily keep up with the ARC:
Convergent
Atma-Sphere UV-1
CJ ART 2
Cary SLP98
Shindo
Have fun! |
11-17-15: Timztunz
@Georgelofi You are 100% correct sir. IF I keep the EMM Labs gear I have no need of a separate preamp. However, I'm contemplating moving away from that gear, in which case I will be in the market for a pre and a CD/SACD player. Many cdp/dacs these days have the same output and volume adjustability as the EMM gear, and are just as capable of driving the amp direct as well. Wait to see what you replace the EMM stuff with first as this will lead you in the right direction, for now just listen to the EMM direct. Cheers George |
I give another example; a cello has a very wide palette in diversity in sound. Pass labs poweramps can give you a very natural palette in the mid freq.
When you listen to many tube amps and pre amps you create often a pleasant sound. People discribe it as warm and musical.
But is it very natural and realsitic? In many situations it is not. Don't see this as negative. People are still free to prefer a more warm sound.
When we listen to tube amps and pre amps we ofen audition that the low, mid and highe freq. sound pleasant and but all the same. So when you test and compare it on deversity of the middle freq it is less complete and natural.
This part you will understand when you owned and tested many Pass Labs power amps.
There is a test of the new Pass Labs XS-300. The person who writes it says: it is better than any tube power amp. The reason why he writes this, is that it is more complete.
When I give a demo with a set what is more complete, people get exited about the sound a lot more. Because all the different parts influences our emotion.
Music is all about emotion. So audio is! |
When you compare and test brands, in almost all situations
you will find out the same properties. For example when
you compare and test AR power and pre amp you will find
the same properties. Read the next review. Here you read
the same things I wrote. I did find this today.
http://hometheaterreview.com/pass-labs-x2508-stereo-
amplifier-reviewed/
"The Audio Research Reference 75, even though it is a
tube-based amplifier, actually sounded drier and somewhat
washed out in its overall tonal colors compared with the
X250.8. Another notable difference between the Audio
Research Reference 75 and the X250.8 was that the X250.8
created a much more three-dimensional soundstage then the
Reference 75--to the point that the 75's soundstage
sounded flat/shallow and lacked air/space around the
individual players."
Audio is comparing and testing; believe me AR is by far
not the best student of the class.
Our focus is only based on the best students of each
class. We always suggest the other students to stop and
look for another study. |
VAC Ren. Sig.
Einstein The Pre
I have owned both of the above & either will best the 5SE. |
I would also suggest VAC or Shindo as preamps that would be in the same league or better. Different sound, though, you'd have to audition to see if you preferred them to the ARC. |
LoL!!! More Yoda esk riddlery.
Does your frame of reference extend to ARC Ref40 or Ref10? |
When you are aware of what is possible in the world of
highend, you understand the differences in quality.
We work and think by Total Sound. When you can compare
audio tools by their properties it becomes a lot more easy
to compare and understand how good or worse it is.
I miss too many qualities with AR what other tools do a
lot better. These parts are very easy to be heard and
understood.
The only thing you need is comparing and a frame of
reference. Shootouts are one of the most fun parts in
audio. I am addicted to it for over 17 years of time. I
have done thousends of tests form mid level till highend.
It is all about collecting information of each tool we
test. When you focus on the properties a tool owns, you
can create a much higher endresult.
When you are aware of all the properties, you want to use
them all. When we listen to sets of new clients, at shows
or at distributers almost all sets are incomplete. We
always try to explain what is missing. |
@melbguy1 Many thanks for your post, and I was even keeping up with you pretty good, until you started suggesting integrated amps? I already have an amp. If I have misunderstood you please forgive me. Sometimes I'm a bit slow on the uptake. :-) |
Well first of all, the input impedance of your Plinius amp is 47K Ohms which should be benign to even the weakest tube preamps. In my opinion, with your Plinius amp I would just go for a Vac Renaissance Mk3 & upgrade the tubes. Kevin Hayes has a nice collection of NOS tubes in his own 'Vac store' & is always happy to provide his wealth of knowledge. I think the Vac would be a good match sound-wise & imho, anything more is overkill and I would just buy a killer integrated instead like a Vitus SIA-025, Gryphon Diablo 300 or JRDG Daemon. |
@lak
Many thanks! That's the kind of information I'm looking for!
@bo1972
You win the contest for the most words but not very helpful advice. Except that you don't like Audio Research. |
Before upgrading amps I used my Symphonic Line "The Enlightenment" with a Plinius SB-301, and that combo was very nice. |
I'm using an Allnic L-3000 preamp along with my Plinius SA Reference amp and am very happy. |
