@orpheus10 That’s all well and good but in the OP he says he is copying vinyl onto cassette. So we can eliminate reel to reel from the debate. Fair enough? The OP question is a general one, is there something about audio cassette that would make a vinyl copy superior to the original vinyl, you know, sound quality wise? We don’t have to compare audio cassettes to reel to reel or vinyl to reel to reel.
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I have to take issue and disagree with your basic premise. Tape doesn't sound "better" than vinyl it sounds different, you may prefer those differences but it doesn't actually make it better it's just a matter of preferences after all there are people who like the sound of Bose speakers , and that doesn't mean they sound better. Just saying. |
Well, if you wish to open the thread up to comparisons, why not compare cassettes to CDs? That is the most ironic comparison of them all. You know, why an apparently low tech medium, a medium that was dumped twenty years ago, a medium they don’t even make anymore, sounds more musical than CDs. Why cassettes sound more DYNAMIC and ENTERTAINING than CDs. Why cassettes can be appreciated on systems the entire cost of which is - for all practical purposes - ZERO. Hel-loo! |
These forums will be the death of my wallet for sure Now you have me looking on eBay at tape decks, thanks INNA! lol. Tbh I am not too surprised by the majority opinions and findings My 85 year old mother still uses her Grundig reel deck which is at least 50 years old! I remember when she was using my old JVC table, Trio amp and Akai cassette deck so she could transfer cassettes and vinyl onto her reels and still listens to them to this day! I think she likes to watch the reels go round..... She is also still using the Trio, JVC and the Akai and they are 39 to 40 years old too. Last time I was there when she was playing some Tony Bennet if I remember, even though not my cup of tea at all, I do remember it sounding pretty darn good and very life like. So easy to spend my hard earned cash nowadays, just browse eBay, read up a bit and push a few buttons on the keyboard and another toy could be winging its way towards me. Doh...... |
You are welcome. If one day you do decide to get an open reel deck or a cassette player don’t do it before consulting with the Audiogon membership. There are very knowledgeable people here who use or used to use them. Tapeheads.com can be helpful too. If you keep looking at the decks on ebay, look at Studer, Otari, Technics. Also, Revox, Tascam, Teak, Sony pro. I could get some Otari or Revox right away, but I will wait. This should be a serious project for me so I would want to have extra funds for service, reels, maybe new cables. I spend about $100 per month on audio, not including records, and can tell that it is not very little if you don't make significant mistakes. |
The example I was thinking of is the way I put my reel to use; record vinyl to reel for convenience, this is constant with few variables, no matter how good the vinyl rig is, the reel playback will sound better. I use 2 track recorded at 7 1/2 ips. The vinyl is recorded tape out on pre, to tape in on reel. As I explained, the reason the vinyl sounds better on playback, is because the sound is bigger because of the larger tape heads of a 2 track, not only does that mean more detail, but it also adds depth to the sound stage. I know that's not the same situation as you might expect from the original statement, but I record my vinyl to reel for convenience, and that's what I get. When you compare different turntable setups to different reels, that's not valid because no constants have been stated. |
Recording directly from phono stage to tape is better than using preamp out. Unless, of course, you can't do it because you use onboard phono stage. That's an additional advantage of having separate phono. I rarely listen to entire album and often have to move the needle, I make compilations on tape, though in my case of a cassette deck turntable sounds better overall. If I had good two track open reel deck I would only touch turntable when recording to tape. Each record would be basically played once - to record. They would remain in top condition for the archive and cartridge would last for at least ten years. Yeah, it's Studer, mono blocks and speakers. Preamp is not needed. |
In regards to a cassette deck, what would be your recommendations based on current good used equipment still in circulation? Might be a fun worthwhile endeavour especially as I still have a huge pile of tapes from when I used to play them in my muscle cars before switching over to Hidden Stereo systems which were then cd/ fm based not cassette/fm based as the old indash spindle fit systems were. Not sure on budget as have not considered tape in a long while but my guess is that $300 to $350 should get something halfway decent? Thank you Kevin |
Kevin, I took a look at what's available on ebay right now. I can see that prices for good decks are going up. Of what I saw the closest to your price range that I would bother with is Nakamichi 582 for around $600 including shipping. The seller promises to service the deck before shipping it. Those old decks really need service form time to time. I have no personal experience with Nak 582 but it's good. I read a lot about cassette decks years ago before choosing Nak 682ZX, which is I believe the best performance value. Couple of extra hundreds of dollars go a long way when it comes to cassette decks. But if you are very serious there is a rare Nak ZX-9 for $1400 serviced by Willy Hermann. That's where I service my deck. He currently does only overhauls which is in fact not full overhaul but partial overhaul, including all the calibrations, alignment, transport disassembly etc. For my deck he charges about $650, I do it every five or six years. |
I am thinking for my budget and intended very occasional use that a lower model may be in order. Like the cr3a,4a or 5a. At present I am thinking of using mostly to play existing collection of tapes( I also have a friend who has a vast collection of tapes and no deck that I am sure I could "borrow" some), rather than record anew. Partly due to my DAC/pre has no tape out function so would have to go direct from phono stage or CD player or vault to the deck to record anyway. Decks along these lines seem to be $250 to $500. Lots to consider before jumping in! |
I am not familiar with them but CR4A and CR5A should be okay for playback. I think, they were made in Taiwan not Japan, and they will not have classic warm Nakamichi sound. Tandberg 440A is good, should be around $500, I am not sure about its reliability, though. Recording directly from phono or cd player is a way to go. Good interconnects make a difference. |
These are the best cassette decks available on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/gds/Top-10-Cassette-Decks-/10000000204927180/g.html http://www.ebay.com/gds/Revox-Nakamichi-and-Tandberg-the-Pros-and-Cons-/10000000001829134/g.html Revox B215 was unmatched in smooth frequency response, vanishingly low hiss levels and overall clarity of sound. There it is, take your choice. |
Some information is correct while some is misleading or plain wrong. The very best Nakamichi deck is 1000ZXL, Limited and regular. The very best Tandberg, aside from pro models, is 3014A and 3014 is close. Revox cannot compete at this level. Studer is better, uses top Sony heads, but cassette Studer is not reel Studer. |
I have no idea why I'm wasting my time trying to help somebody find a cassette deck when it makes absolutely no sense; right now I'm listening to the 2 track, and no cassette deck I've ever heard is even in the same ball park. I "gave" my ton of cassette tapes away, and never looked back. A good cassette deck is not cheap, and with a few more hundred, you could have a good reel to reel. Plus I've seen reels that cost no more than expensive cassette decks, but audiophiles can rationalize the irrational. |
@orpheus10 I certainly appreciate the help and advice and seriously hope you do not think you are wasting your time! Since when has any audiophile been accused of being rational.....lol. It may be a passing phase but its one I am interested in right now. R2r may follow who knows? From what I see of the successful sales of cassette decks on eBay I would have little problem moving a deck on again at a later date. |
@inna The main problem with ever increasing budget is that pretty soon I will be approaching r2r prices and then its well just a bit more will get an even better model , repeat ad infinitum! I am in no rush, tapes have sat in boxes for 6 or 7 years now so a while longer will not hurt. Lets see if I can find any Xmas bargains! |
That's actually what I was thinking of suggesting. You just got Nottingham, set it up, see how it sounds. What if you will want to upgrade your phono stage to make it right, or replace the Shelter cartridge it will come with ? I always do one source at a time. orpheus10, you were helping with cassette decks because Kevin asked for an advice. He also has a lot of recorded tapes to play. As for open reel decks ebay prices, I would say you need at least $1k to get Otari or better Revox, then you would have to pay a few hundreds or more to have it serviced, plus blank reels and plus good cables, XLR in case of Otari. I will not approach all this until I have at least $2.5k to spend. And Studers are usually around $5k or more, condition unknown. |
I find that humble, simple in operation, Sony Walkman cassette players sound very good. I’m using several different models with Grado headphones and also titanium headphones from Radio Shack. I even have the Professional Walkman. There’s something about the elimination of power cords, house AC, AC ground, fuses, big honking capacitors, toxic transformers, speaker cables and interconnects that produces very low distortion and pure, dynamic sound. Cassettes were not (repeat not) the targets of overly aggressive compression. AND there’s no buyer’s remorse. Simplicity rules! 😀 Catch the wave! 🏄♂️ |
Funny that you should ask. Let me suggest first that In most situations vinyl disks are made from master tapes. Assuming that entropy works for audio too, information theory tells us that the process of tape to vinyl will cost us information, there will less in the vinyl media than the tape because the Law of Entropy says so. The traditional solution to this has been direct-to-disk recordings. Second is that the vinyl reproduction has a high level of 'surface noise' added to the signal, I jokingly call that 'clogging the holes between the notes". Consider that the silence between notes is important to the illusion of our stereo systems. Audio Entropy, lot's of if. I have written about this in the audio system at http://www.austinaudioworks.com/design-philosphy/audio-entropy Relax, it is all an illusion anyway. |
Actually I just wrote on the subject of audio and entropy in the last five days on one of the threads here. Oh, the Michael Fremer thread. What you’re describing is actually not really entropy. It’s simply losses in transfer from the master tape that depend quite a bit on the skill of the person doing the transfer. Entropy is measure of disorganization. It is a statistical thermodynamics principle. Gee, I must have taken Statistical Thermo in school. 😛 Furthermore, as I pointed out in my recent post on audio & entropy, on the Michael Fremer thread, the main problems - in terms of information retrieval - occur in the playback system and *the room* in which the recording is being played, with the local environment. It’s a long story. A very long story. As I pointed out, “room clutter” in quotes acts to reduce SQ. But not via the usual acoustic type things folks naturally think of. Other Feng Shui principles may or may not apply to audio SQ. Some do, some don’t. |
Conversion of electrical into magnetic and back to electrical is not the same as conversion of mechanical into electromagnetical. Ralph, you know it better than I do. As for if something is altered in any case - probably. To use an analogy, converting water into ice is not the same as converting water into wood or stone. The analogy does not hold up. Yes, there are two different processes involved and they both do quite well. Saying that one is inherently better than the other strictly out of the process ignores the progress of that technology. However we do know the specs that are out there and they have been there for a while- tape has not been advancing as much as the LP in recent years as there are very little in the way of modern tape machine producers. The LP sector has new pressing machines, new tone arms, new turntables and so on and so enjoys the advantages that come with newer technology. How do you compare these specs to whatever it is you are referring to?30Khz bandwidth is good for tape- but the LP has had bandwidth beyond that since the advent of the Westerex 3D cutterhead (1959). Its electronics are bandwidth limited at 42KHz. The head can go higher than that but the bandwidth limit is there to prevent damage to the head due to the RIAA pre-emphasis (which is +6db per octave). The bandwidth has been there in playback since sometime in the early 1970s. The distortion is comparable, depending on the playback. A well set up arm and cartridge will have lower distortion figures; a poor setup will be much higher. The noise floor of a **well-pressed** LP exceeds the best of tape even with Dolby S. Inferior pressings will be considerably noisier (note added emphasis). |
Before I became an audiophile, I was a working electronics technician who worked with many measuring instruments, some that measured sound beyond human audibility. That was when I judged audio gear by it's specifications. I often wondered why those crazy audiophiles paid big money for equipment that was inferior to mine; theirs had more noise and distortion. I acquired a loaner CJ preamp that clearly had both noise and distortion, but sounded better musically better than my SS rig. I had to call a friend over to see if I wasn't going batty. After he confirmed that the CJ sounded better, I quit judging by specification, and let my ears tell me what sounded best. No instrument can measure all the components involved in music, other than your ears; and that's what audiophiles use to judge their gear. |
The signal to noise ratio of Dolby SR is around 90dbs.Right. Lathe cuts are better than that; so far the only pressings I've found that get into the range come from QRP, the pressing plant owned by Acoustic Sounds. Quite literally the playback electronics are the noise floor. I've often wondered what Dolby S could do for the LP... |
Inna, this is very close to good as it gets for a home enthusiast, Studer is for commercial use and very expensive,but I know you know that. The tape handling of this deck is very close to Studer. If you wait too long, your hearing will have gone and you wont be able to enjoy it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Cp_Zpdxvuc&t=241s |
Let's hope my hearing will be almost intact for a long time. Problem with Otari, sort of a problem, just as with Studer, is that it has only balanced in/out. My amp and phono stage don't. Using adapters is a wrong way to go about it. Having XLR/RCA cables is not quite right either, not to mention two sets of expensive cables. Adding Jensen transformer is a way to go, but again new cables plus transformer. As I said, doing it right is expensive or very expensive. I might start with better two track Revox and 7 1/2 speed and see how it goes. Still, even that is quite expensive. Technics is another possibility. |
As I stated Inna, Technics are easy to work on, and I haven't found a better company to work with. I began rebuilding mine immediately after I bought it: Black Gate Capacitors, transistors, everything that was rubber got replaced, and I also ordered the repair manual, this deck has never left home, and I get totally immersed in the music every time I play it. |
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I have two Sony Cassette decks; Sony TC-KA3ES. The purpose for having two, was to make tapes in the listening room, and listen to them late at night in the bedroom. That worked out just fine, but when metal tape was no longer available, I began to lose interest. That deck really popped with metal tape, but the music didn't hold my interest with lesser tape. Our oldest automobile had a tape, but after we traded that in, it made the deck totally obsolete. I only use it for the few spoken word tapes that I have. What does anybody think it's worth? http://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/sony/tc-ka3es.htm |
Inna, I think you are beginning to see the light, and at a good time I might add. When I bought my reel, they wouldn't even dust the thing off for you, take it as is. Now, since they can get decent money for a reel, they make sure it's running properly, and that's a good thing for someone who can't fix stuff. I think this is the best time to buy a reel; new ones are too expensive, and any kind of demand is going to deplete the good used one's; life is too short to sit back and desire something that's at hand for you to get. |
orpheus10, you are absolutely right. Problem is that I am the responsible one for strategic finances, and with power come the obligations and rationality. I could get $5k Studer in no time but I will not. Still, I am working on it. Besides, I also need good tube phono stage, what I have now won't cut it for a high level open reel deck. Life is short but not very short. |