I use well-tuned Nakamichi 682ZX with custom transformer with Maxell Vertex tapes. Recordings from cds also sound better than cds, in the same aspects. Cassette is just a mini reel, four track, slow speed. But of course I meant mostly open reel decks. Still, it's the tape.
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I can run the phono thru the deck, this gives extra gain at the slight expense of the resolution. The turntable has better dynamics and detail and soundstage, tape sounds more natural. |
Maxell Metal Vertex is the very best cassette tape, and my deck is not even specifically calibrated for it.
I'll get Otari or Studer open reel deck in time and then the turntable, any turntable, will not sound better in any aspect. I will also be able to play master tape dubs if I can find them.
Yes, I too think the resonances in vinyl playback is a big factor, but I suspect it's not the whole story. |
I have couple of Vertex cassettes that I played more than 500 times. I almost never rewind or fastforward. They still play just as good as when they were new. And this particular tape is Maxell back coated tape that they used it their reels. They might be good for 500 more plays, I'll see.
You can also modify decks, add outboard tube playback head amp, have custom headblocks for two track and four track recordings and playback and do other things. Great open reel deck is a true audiophile machine. You can even use it as an active preamp, as I sometimes do. |
BIG SHAME !!!
But it's not in museum, there is a number of people very serious about R2R recording and playback.
Vinyl is great for archive, though, and back-up. |
Yeah, some guys 'bake' the tape, use LAST tape and head preservatives and do other things. I use LAST head preservative that ideally should be applied before playing each cassette. My deck probably has 5000-6000 hours of playtime on it and the head has a minimal wear. |
I believe, best tape decks and turntables/arms/cartridges were made later than in early 70's. Or the tape itself, for that matter. He proved nothing. |
Even if direct to disc can theoretically sound slighly better in some respects, I think, tape will still have an edge in smoothness and continuity, perhaps in drive as well. And think of the level of the equipment that you would need to get that out of the groove. Continuum Caliburn with Ypsilon phono and SUT, anyone ? |
raymonda, you should've read carefully what I wrote. I didn't say that cassette sounded better in all aspects of the performance. It is not all or nothing, you know. I never use any dolby.
I also use top cables when recording and comparing the two. I read there is an idea that vintage equipment is less cable dependent. That appears to be a mythology. I tried five different interconnects that I have and difference varies from moderate to huge. And of course I record directly from the phono, not using tape out of the amp. |
Let's return to real tape machines - open reel decks.
In addition, cartridges color the sound like hell. Even if vinyl was better you cannot fully make use of it - no cartridge will be able to extract all the information from the groove and present it as a complete flow as opposed to imperfectly connected elements, and that's plus coloration. It would be interesting to hear what engineers think. Direct to disc recordings will not solve playback problems, one of the reasons why it was virtually abandoned. |
The purpose of this thread is to call attention to the tape and tape machines. Whatever anyone has to say. I think, many agree that there is something that makes the tape sound more natural. As for the cut-off frequency extremes that somehow make the sound more pleasing, I disagree. The biggest difference is in the midrange itself.
Vinyl playback is a very 'bumpy road' if you imagine the way stylus moves, not to mention the transformation of the mechanical energy into electrical. Tape is quite different, though there is a tape movement. Studers are first of all famous for their transport. I said that I use LAST head preservative when playing cassettes, I didn't say that it slightly improves the playback, you can easily hear it. In a manner of speaking, it improves the transport. I am not sure it's a correct way to put it but tape appears to give more 'sound saturation'. |
Yeah, Studer and monoblocks. You may not need a preamp, you've got it in the deck. I think, 7.5 ips two track is also acceptable in many cases. One pair of interconnects and a pair of short speaker cables, and nothing between speakers. |
Digiheads are not welcome here. Even if they are of divine origin. |
Norman, I have Nakamichi 682ZX. Yeah, I copy my favourite cds to tape too, never really use cd player except for recording. Definitely more listenable. |
The best way to eliminate unwanted vibration is to get rid of the needle and of the arm, that's, theoretically, laser-based playback. But it was never really developed. Maybe one day. |
Besides, what about 1/2" tape machines ? Not that decks don't have vibration interference, they do, so you deal with it as much as possible. Replacing lamp cord power cable should improve it further, I guess. |
orpheus10, thank you. Yeah, that's the one, but A810 and perhaps A807 would be enough for me. There are A810 and A807 on ebay now, sold by some Germans, with custom tube outboard playback head preamp. That's how I would eventually want it. I'll get there in time, no doubt. |
Yeah, that's perhaps too much even for "extreme audiophiles", as Orpheus10 put it. But why not ?
Ralph, which one sounds better, 1/2" four track or 1/4" two track ? Assuming 7 1/2 ips and 15 ips speeds. |
And if it was possible would we want it ?
Ralph, I see. Not that I was thinking of 1/2" machine, the cost would be prohibitive, and yeah few titles. |
While recording from anything to tape some coloration is inevitably added but it's not the whole story and it's not necessarilly what is found pleasing. Tape recorder 'rearranges' the elements of the incoming signal and lays them down to tape. This rearranged source might in some respects give better soundscape. Something like that, in its own way, might also happen when you record digital from digital. In other words, processing may yield better results.
Do you know what some crazy Japanese do? They have 100 volts wall current over there. They take it up to 230 volts with one step up transformer and then take it back down to 100 volts with another and claim that it sounds better. This is just an analogy and an example of a rather primitive current processing. Things are not that simple. |
With tape everything stays within the domain of electromagnetic energy, with vinyl there is a conversion of mechanical energy. Do you think nothing is altered in the conversion ?
We really need tape and vinyl experts here. Maybe we should invite Walter Davis of LAST and others I don't know who to clarify it all and explain in more or less plain English. |
Yes, Orpheus10, I read that discussion when it was current. |
Conversion of electrical into magnetic and back to electrical is not the same as conversion of mechanical into electromagnetical. Ralph, you know it better than I do. As for if something is altered in any case - probably. To use an analogy, converting water into ice is not the same as converting water into wood or stone.
" The limitation of the LP is in playback " is a big understatement, I think.
Yeah, I would never buy dubs from ebay, from Russia or China or US. |
On the contrary, this thread is about open reel decks and tape, I only mentioned cassette as an example of a 'mini reels'.
We can compare anything to anything. |
Bigger, or fuller, or both is the right term, I think. Smoother too.
Cassette decks also have very slow speed. But for a cassette some Naks and Tandbergs are very impressive, especially with Vertex tape and no dolby. And that's with captured lamp power cord.
Ralph is a little attached to vinyl but he knows what he knows.
Orpheus10, when I am ready I will almost certainly go after Studer. The most important reason is transport. But also other things, including the availability of parts and of tuners who could make it almost like new. It should last me as long as I do, at least. |
You are welcome. If one day you do decide to get an open reel deck or a cassette player don’t do it before consulting with the Audiogon membership. There are very knowledgeable people here who use or used to use them. Tapeheads.com can be helpful too. If you keep looking at the decks on ebay, look at Studer, Otari, Technics. Also, Revox, Tascam, Teak, Sony pro. I could get some Otari or Revox right away, but I will wait. This should be a serious project for me so I would want to have extra funds for service, reels, maybe new cables. I spend about $100 per month on audio, not including records, and can tell that it is not very little if you don't make significant mistakes. |
" cool '" is an understatement - great ! |
Recording directly from phono stage to tape is better than using preamp out. Unless, of course, you can't do it because you use onboard phono stage. That's an additional advantage of having separate phono.
I rarely listen to entire album and often have to move the needle, I make compilations on tape, though in my case of a cassette deck turntable sounds better overall. If I had good two track open reel deck I would only touch turntable when recording to tape. Each record would be basically played once - to record. They would remain in top condition for the archive and cartridge would last for at least ten years. Yeah, it's Studer, mono blocks and speakers. Preamp is not needed. |
Kevin, I took a look at what's available on ebay right now. I can see that prices for good decks are going up. Of what I saw the closest to your price range that I would bother with is Nakamichi 582 for around $600 including shipping. The seller promises to service the deck before shipping it. Those old decks really need service form time to time. I have no personal experience with Nak 582 but it's good. I read a lot about cassette decks years ago before choosing Nak 682ZX, which is I believe the best performance value. Couple of extra hundreds of dollars go a long way when it comes to cassette decks. But if you are very serious there is a rare Nak ZX-9 for $1400 serviced by Willy Hermann. That's where I service my deck. He currently does only overhauls which is in fact not full overhaul but partial overhaul, including all the calibrations, alignment, transport disassembly etc. For my deck he charges about $650, I do it every five or six years. |
Revox B710 and B215 should be good for your purpose, but they are expensive as well. |
I am not familiar with them but CR4A and CR5A should be okay for playback. I think, they were made in Taiwan not Japan, and they will not have classic warm Nakamichi sound.
Tandberg 440A is good, should be around $500, I am not sure about its reliability, though.
Recording directly from phono or cd player is a way to go. Good interconnects make a difference. |
Some information is correct while some is misleading or plain wrong.
The very best Nakamichi deck is 1000ZXL, Limited and regular. The very best Tandberg, aside from pro models, is 3014A and 3014 is close. Revox cannot compete at this level. Studer is better, uses top Sony heads, but cassette Studer is not reel Studer. |
That's actually what I was thinking of suggesting. You just got Nottingham, set it up, see how it sounds. What if you will want to upgrade your phono stage to make it right, or replace the Shelter cartridge it will come with ? I always do one source at a time.
orpheus10, you were helping with cassette decks because Kevin asked for an advice. He also has a lot of recorded tapes to play.
As for open reel decks ebay prices, I would say you need at least $1k to get Otari or better Revox, then you would have to pay a few hundreds or more to have it serviced, plus blank reels and plus good cables, XLR in case of Otari. I will not approach all this until I have at least $2.5k to spend. And Studers are usually around $5k or more, condition unknown. |
We'll let others decide what holds up or not and to what degree if it does. And experiment with tape and tape machines. |
Yes, brain is still the most sophisticated 'device'. Let's hope it stays that way. Measure Stradivarius or best Conde Hermanos guitars with your measuring instruments, the results may be interesting. |
Let's hope my hearing will be almost intact for a long time. Problem with Otari, sort of a problem, just as with Studer, is that it has only balanced in/out. My amp and phono stage don't. Using adapters is a wrong way to go about it. Having XLR/RCA cables is not quite right either, not to mention two sets of expensive cables. Adding Jensen transformer is a way to go, but again new cables plus transformer. As I said, doing it right is expensive or very expensive. I might start with better two track Revox and 7 1/2 speed and see how it goes. Still, even that is quite expensive. Technics is another possibility. |
Good ! If you want to test the recording capabilities, TDK MA-XG metal tape is second best and available. Maxell MX-S is good but not reference level. Of Type II tapes I used Maxell XLII-S, there is also rare TDK SA-XG. |
orpheus10, NOS sealed metal tapes are plenty on ebay. I have no idea of how much it might be worth, also depends on the condition, including heads condition. Question is are there many who would prefer Sony to Nakamichi ? |
For this kind of money I would go with open reel deck. |
orpheus10, you are absolutely right. Problem is that I am the responsible one for strategic finances, and with power come the obligations and rationality. I could get $5k Studer in no time but I will not. Still, I am working on it. Besides, I also need good tube phono stage, what I have now won't cut it for a high level open reel deck. Life is short but not very short. |
I am still without Studer, too many things distract me from this project. |
