When one plunks down $10,000 $50,000 and more for a speaker you’re paying for awesome sound, perhaps an elegant or outlandish style, some prestige ... but what makes the price what it is?
Are the materials in a $95,000 set of speakers really that expensive? Or are you paying a designer who has determined he can make more by selling a few at a really high price as compared to a lot at a low price?
And at what point do you stop using price as a gauge to the quality? Would you be surprised to see $30,000 speakers "outperform" $150,000 speakers?
timlub - I completely agree!! Resistances need to be compensated for the inductors. There are plenty of crossover calculators online and measurements are always useful if changing the inductors. If there is a drastic change in the crossover point, it could damage the drivers.
A friend of mine has a pair of some vintage Sonus Faber's and the tweeter was using an electrolytic cap for filtering!!!! We changed it out to a low end and inexpensive film ClairtyCap (~$5 each) and his eyes nearly popped out of his head and realized the full capability of the tweeters. It was like a switch was finally turned on!
"Speaking of crossover parts, it is easy to take an inexpensive low and mid grade speaker to a much higher level by just replacing the caps, resistors, and inductors to higher quality ones" While I agree 100% with audioman2015, I want to caution anyone about replacing Inductors.... Each inductor, yes has a inductance rating in henry or millihenry, they also have a resistance rating... For those that don't know, a speaker may be crossed at 6db per octave at 2500hz, but when you change the inductor, if you do not compensate for the impedance change in the inductor itself, you have effectively changed the crossover slope or point or both. So for those that want upgrade, that's fine, but unless you are capable of these measurements, I would recommend against inductor changes..... ESPECIALLY going from a cheap steel, iron or ferrite core to an air core... these resistive values can be dramatically different. I hope that this is helpful. Tim
Speaking of crossover parts, it is easy to take an inexpensive low and mid grade speaker to a much higher level by just replacing the caps, resistors, and inductors to higher quality ones. I've done this to 4 sets of speakers over the years and have had wow reactions afterwards.
Speaker companies have relationships with capacitor manufacturers for their supply chain. For example a high end capacitor manufacturer such as Mundorf supplies all the caps for their entire line. The top product could use their oil/silver/gold caps that would cost a normal person like you and me $100 each but are sold to the speaker manufacturer for a little over cost at $20 each but the manufacturer also buys the cheapest Mundorf without any branding for their lower products in much larger volumes. These relationships are made over years and even decades.
I have been searching and researching speakers for the last few months to replace my Paradigm 5Se's, which I've had for something like 25 years.
I probably don't watch my dollars as closely as I should, and when I was looking at some Triton's in the $2,000 (CDN) range, it didn't take long for the salesman to start talking "deal".
Price is important, but I like to think of price as a flexible range and understand what my options are within that range.
I also find that "marketing" encompasses many different things. Sure there's the hyperbole but the information presented can sometimes be helpful. What I find most frustrating are speaker companies that have so many different products, all priced very close together, and provide no clear idea of how they differ except for their price point.
What most folks don't realize is that the mark up on high end speakers will range from 50% for a Wilson to only 33% for some other top brands. Folks don't always realize how much money some of these folks have to pay for their components since they aren't buying huge numbers at a time. Some of the caps alone can cost these guys over$100 each (or more). That adds a lot of money to a speaker when you figure they need at least one or more per speaker and they will use the business model of marking it up 100%. That alone has just added $400 to the cost of a speaker. That's why you often see 'special' 'signature' additions costing so much. When I found out what Vandersteen is putting into his crossovers, I then realized who much we don't see in a speaker. In a really good speaker there are so many 'hidden' costs that we don't see and that's in addition to the overhead a company has to go along with the R&D we've all been talking about.
Yes, these folks can make a nice living, but only if they are smart business people who give you more than you expect for the money as each of their price points. Very few companies have been able to pull that off. That's why you only have a handful of companies who have been around since the 80's or earlier who are still around and most of those don't even have the same owner and have changed their sound so greatly that their loyal customers don't even like the new offerings.
This is a very interesting thread. I don't know much about expensive speakers but I do know about low to mid cost speakers and how lucrative sales can be.
My wife used to work at Fry's Electronics where they sold low to mid grade speakers and carry brands like Klipsch and Velodyne subs. There is about a 70 to 80% profit margin on them for Fry's. Any employee can look them up because of their employee discount. Now if those companies can sell a $1000 speaker to Frys for $200 and still make good profits after covering their expenses, then you can imagine what goes into the materials, design, etc.
I actually stopped buying expensive audio gear at MSRP when I found out that a high end cd player which I was about to purchase and cost $4000 - well the online authorized retailer was going to pocket $1200 for running my credit card, printing a label, and pulling the box from storage for Fedex to ship. If my money was getting back to the manufacturer it would mean one thing, but for the store to make $1200 for less than 10 minutes of work was the ultimate deal breaker.
Now with more expensive speakers and any other expensive gear, the market is even smaller that can make the purchase so there is much more of a risk involved. Higher risks warrant a higher rate of return of investment. Companies are started every day and fail everyday and lose lots of money but those that do make it are making considerable profits. They wouldn't be in business if the rate of return wasn't high enough for them in the first place.
Good question. I believe most of the cost is attributable to the time involved with getting the speaker to sound 'right' to the designer. This 'sound' is a product of the drivers, crossovers (if any,) cabinet materials, internal cabinet bracing, baffling, shapes to reduce cabinet resonances, etc. In short, it's a helluva lot more than building a box and mounting some speakers. But don't take my word for it, build a box, get a crossover, mount some speakers and listen to it...nothing like walking a mile is somebody else's shoes to get an idea of what they go thru.
The hi-fi market doesn't seem broken to me at all, and it's been pretty much a niche market all along. I'm not sure why you think it should be otherwise... Why does that trouble you?
I wasn't expecting a serious question to my satirical story. I ran with it simply in hopes someone else would also be amused. The jeans analogy is way too silly to really make a point, but car analogies are quite popular--so I'll try again, same idea, different angle, no attempts at humor.
Many years ago, when shopping for a slightly sporty but mostly cheap & fuel efficient car, no one at the dealership--or even online--suggested I test drive a Ferrari so I could understand what driving was really like. There weren't even Ferraris in the lot to test drive, simply slightly nicer, newer Hondas.
Shopping for stereo at anywhere other than BB, you're presented with those Ferraris in person, and as an ideal to aspire to, if not attain. After all things aren't that bad once you've saved up for the Boxter. Perhaps I'm just too cynical to realize that people are just being friendly, sharing their passion, realizing I'll likely never get to experience the same at home. Regardless, the marketing in hi-fi certainly reinforces the idea that you're not getting truly close to the recording without a serious investment. Perhaps I'm too gullible that way.
In real life Hondas & Toyotas are exceedingly common and well-regarded. But what would be the audio equivalent of a Honda?
Bryston maybe? No one I know in has anything like that--they have the stereo equivalents of old beat up Yugos, SmartCars, scooters & bicycles. Perhaps I need better friends.
I don't begrudge the well off; but outside of this hobby I don't exactly mingle in the same circles. Perhaps I'm just too socially isolated--yet I've never found the need to go to an exclusive restaurant just get a better burger than McDonald's.
Conversely, I do remember a time, when I tip-toed past $1000 bottles of wine to the sad back aisle of an upscale wine shop just to get something better than a Budweiser. Now, thankfully, its not difficult at all to find a good craft beer.
I think that's it: I'm troubled because I feel like there could be more of a market. Yes, the audiophilia merry-go-round of gear changing will always be niche; old-fashioned
room-filling
multi-component monolith based systems will always be niche. But does that really mean an investment in a good stereo has to also be niche?
If properly priced (complete system under $10k) & marketed (think Beats/Tidal) couldn't something along the lines of the wireless Goldmund speakers or the Avant-Garde Zeros be successful? They're both a bit more, of course, but with a few tweaks & enough sales, the profit would be there. Or perhaps something like a Spatial M3S with built-in dac/amp, optimized for corner placement like an AudioNote for under $5k (maybe not exactly possible as open baffle, but hopefully you get the idea--I'm just trying to stick with products I've recently heard).
But almost no one is designing products at that level of quality & refinement with the accessibility required for a new audience (though Devialet comes to mind). That's what keeps it niche.* And the lack of mainstream adoption of anything related to good stereo sound is what keeps the pricing--if not broken--too often far too inflated. At least for me.
gnostalgick "The hi-fi market is broken; its broken because its niche ..."
The hi-fi market doesn't seem broken to me at all, and it's been pretty much a niche market all along. I'm not sure why you think it should be otherwise. Merchandise is widely manufactured, sold, re-sold and traded at prices set by the market. Why does that trouble you?
The hi-fi market is broken; its broken because its niche. It should not have to be so entwined in the hi-end; but it is. I deal with it because it’s important to me; but its a bit ridiculous.
Imagine if jeans weren’t popular. (Unreal, I know, but remember we live in a world where good sound isn’t popular--you can do this.). Let’s say you wanted a good pair, but all you could find at your local Target (or competitors) were cheap, thin & made in a sweatshop (see, this isn’t difficult to imagine at all). They’re available in the two shades of blue & all the three sizes (S,M,L). You’d quickly realize the best there might rip if you eat an extra slice or two of cake--and still not fit right if you don’t.
So maybe you go to Macy’s (Nordstrom’s, whatever) only to find they haven’t carried jeans since the 80s.
Still, there’s probably an Old Navy not too far away. In larger towns you know they even have a dedicated room inside called "The Gap" but your area is not so lucky. You do find a pair that aren’t really that uncomfortable as long as you don’t have to wear them for very long--but why do they have so many pockets! You’re certain--jeans have to get better than this.
So you find a specialty boutique, and upon entering are confronted by products in every shade & size--many of them bedazzled & wildly stitched. Look, there’s Gucci. You’ve heard of them before & surreptitiously glance at the price--$5k for the pair. With a frown you wonder if the buttons are really gold. Thankfully a friendly & perceptive sales person greets you.
"Over here we have a pair just your size, hand-stitched in Japan with raw denim using a pure silver needle; no one else does anything like that for under $1k." He holds them up to you, but can tell you’re immediately underwhelmed, so explains, "Capri’s allow the manufacturer to focus on the quality of the seams & details; they also fit better in small dressers. These matching sandals keep your ankle at the appropriate angle."
Undeterred, you ask "Do you have any Levi’s?" your grandfather had a pair that seemed to last for years. "Calvin Klein?" recalling those being popular in the 80s. Still smiling, he guides you towards another rack. "These are from Guess. They’ve been designed in America since 1981." He pulls on the sides. "Though some prefer all-cotton, the 2% spandex design allows a thinner weave to stretch without fatigue. And this exclusive 144 tooth silver-plated zipper still provides ample airiness & sparkle--without ever having to worry about replacing a button."
The price tag dangles: $399. You can never let any of your friends know you paid that much for a pair of jeans. Still they don’t really draw attention to themselves. Probably no one will even ask--and you wonder, why doesn’t anyone one care about jeans anymore. Perhaps, if these fit, you’ll go home and find an online group that will accept you--after all, there’s one for every fetish these days.
Once glance from you at the fitting room is all it takes for the sales person to say, "Great, now try them out with this Diana Krall t-shirt on!"
Kirk
P.S. Belts matter. Don’t worry about the theories of braided vs solid straps of leather; copper vs silver buckles--only ever trust your waist.
Marty, great response, thanks. I assumed that it was something like that where you felt it did somethings you LOVED. It's all about the emotion to me also. That's what the Vandersteen line does for me and why I keep listening for other speakers to beat them and they just don't. It's funny as I was reading John Atkinson's review on www.stereophile.com on the Vandersteen 7 mk2 along with Vandersteen's new high pass amp that matches. He said that even at that price they give you more than you expect, but that he has to go back to listening to systems he can afford, but hated to give them up. Kind of sums up all of audio for 99% of us. We are fortunate to find manufacturers who know what trade offs they can go with at the various price points. For me it's Vandersteen and nothing that my older systems have done can come close to bringing me into the music and for once I can finally just sit and listen all day and not realize how much time has passed. I have always loved listening, but it hasn't been like this since I first started with my first system (although even at 9 yo, I was upgrading that system within the month). It's what we do and why we post on forums with strangers and meet new friends while doing it.
Meer, that's dead on IRT Canadian companies. That's why I respect so many of the other brands for doing what they've done without all of that free R&D help. just shows what great minds are into audio.
Having access to a place like this saved audio enthusiasts over the years. Some big Canadian brands may not of reached certain levels of success had it not been for the NRC up here http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/eng/solutions/facilities/indoor_environment.html R&D is a big one, metals semi precious and otherwise, designing all aspects of a speaker, tooling, designing and milling of all the tooling and components, exotic natural material and master craftsman that know how to form it, some of its painstaking detailed work depending on the speaker. None of this comes cheap it all adds up. Then as mentioned low production will further send up cost.
The less expensive speakers are Ohm 100s with a pair of Rythmik 12" subs. This set-up features full bass extension for every recording I own, plus omnidirectional dispersion for 8 octaves. That combination of benefits outweighs the strengths of my SF Cremona M, Verity Parsifal/Encore, and Merlin VSM speakers for me these days. Those speakers will IMO outperform the Ohm/Rythmik in certain other areas, however, and I still love the particular strength of each system.
For the last five years (or so) I’ve had the Ohm/Rythmik as my main system (listening room). The other are located elsewhere in my home. This raises another issue mentioned in this thread (aesthetics). The SFs are beautiful in my living room, the Ohm/Rythmik wouldn’t work there (WAF), even if I wanted to try it. It’s just a matter of personal priorities - which may change over time.
It gets more involved than even that. The $70k MBL 101 will go louder than the Ohm/Rythmik and images more impressively (to my ear), but I don’t necessarily prefer it. I considered buying a (used) pair, but in the end didn’t pull the trigger. The band-pass woofer's bass response in that system is hard to tame IME.
Performance and price don’t remotely track - for me. Performance isn’t everything and people’s hearing, taste, and priorities differ. Even comparing (essentially) full-range, omnidirectional apples to apples, I preferred the Ohm/Rythmik to the MBL 101 (admittedly not in every way, but overall). I expect that for many listeners YMMV.
I just realized that I did not answer the last question from the op...
No, I would not be surprised to find that a $10,000 speaker could outperform a few $100,000 to $150,000 speakers, much less a $30,000 speaker. Its all taste.... the Accuton ceramic drivers are very detailed, but not at all everyone's cup of tea, just as the Raal ribbon, again very detailed, but many people prefer a good ole soft dome. Quality of parts is radically important, but in the end, its all in the execution.
Marty, not sure why the 2k ones do it for you over the 10k ones. Maybe there is something major missing in the more expensive three you have or you have the smaller system in an area where you listen more often. Personally, I've owned and still do a few different systems in different rooms in my house. Whenever I can listen to my major system with the Vandy Treo's, I"m all in. It's the one that I connect with and love to listen to for hours and hours. That's just me.
When I say reverse snobbery, it really is when folks make blanket statements that spending over X amount isn't worth it or it's a waste etc.. The bottom line is that if folks want to spend that and feel that it is worth it, then it is if they can afford it. I can't afford speakers over 15k and even then it's a STRETCH. That doesn't mean that I feel anything over that is a waste. My favorite speakers I've ever heard in a system are the Vandersteen 7 mk2's. I've heard a lot of the 100k plus speakers set up the way the dealer or manufacturer wanted them set up. They just haven't done it for me, but there are thousands who love them or they wouldn't be produced. Conversely, it is snobbery when someone says you can't get great sound unless you spend X amount. I fell in love with a system that consisted of a Rotel integrated amp with a Vandersteen 2 that was set up properly. It was running with an Ayre Codex DAC/headphone amp.
I'm also into personal audio and have a few pair of IEM's as well as headphones. They all give me different things and are easy to collect. I can say that in personal audio, you can get dynamic and wonderfully sounding music for very little if you want to. You can also get unbelievable sound if you want to spend more money just like in speakers. I do feel snobbery goes both ways just like it can in anything else. That's not a negative as we are just passionate folks (as long as we are still respectful. I try to be, but probably don't always succeed).
One factor I haven't seen mentioned in the price debate, is a piece of kit being to cheap. I know the stories are apocryphal, but I have spoken to dealers who have had customers say face to face, that they like a product, but it doesn't cost enough. The reason, 1) it's cheap so it can't be any good. 2), it's cheap so they can't impress their friends.
The rich variety of human stupidity, still surprises me from time to time.
Lots of good information and analysis above. One thing not mentioned is what are the actual street prices of the $$$ speakers? Leaving aside "industry accommodation" pricing, what do real consumers actually pay for a $50K or $100K speaker? I have no idea and I imagine it varies widely, but it would be interesting to know what the average discount is on these uber high-end products. The only speaker I bought new in the last 20 years was obtained at a very substantial discount from list. It was not in this price category but still, it didn't take any arm-twisting on my part.
Of course, the most basic answer to the OP's question is: "Price".
Please! Hard cold facts there are only (5) quality speaker component manufactures in this world today. I.e. the fiscal itself
Now who or what High end speaker brands buy from them. Take any mega brand line like my Wilsons. I've looked inside them. I have several audio buddies with one having Sonus Fabers, other with Vandersteens.
who took there speakers out of the cabinet also. We examined them
carefully. Hmmm! Alum basket >>Hmmm Steel basket. Hmm paper cone
or Aluminum, or composite. Hmm all had magnets, compliances support rings. The only component parts of a speaker that would UP its cost to a very, very high degree .CONE materials YES! certainly not the baskets or magnets and not wood cabinet materials,. I.e. MDF, PLYWOOD,
CONPOSITS. I left Magico out (METAL). The price for wood cabinet materials is dependent quantities they buy maybe several hundred 4'X8' sheets. other maybe a thousand sheets.
Engineering! Testing! all influences the cost for sure. BUT add-on 50Kea
Take a tower cabinet. Sorry! NO new engineering required,
Cross-overs 1st order, 2nd,3rd been around for decades. You pay the big
buck 100K systems.+. Because U can EASILY afford the TAB of entry.
The difference in my Mid priced 48K Wilsons do not sound only a third as good as there XLF $200k. Having audition both side by side. Same amp-pre-amp same record, same cartridge. Made 4 showroom visits before I opened my wallet.
*** I HEARD 5K difference maybe..***
In closing. Should I win the Mega Power Ball lottery. Them would have
the money to do it RIGHT.
Hire a live Jazz band or a small String group to perform LIVE in my listing room every weekend for @ $ 1,500 for a 2 set gig including a female vocalist every Saturday night. For 200 weekends+.
**** TOP THAT *** Mr. Fermer. Ha!!
OK,OK. A Lambo sounds better than a Honda Civic at full song to..
It's not always reverse snobbery. I own three different speaker models that retail at over $10k. While I spend time in front of each, I spend more time these days listening to a system with speakers that ran me about $2700.
Bottom line is there is a strong market for these speakers. Many who can't afford them are jealous and will say their X cost speakers are as good or better, but I've rarely found that to be true. Some companies do over charge based on cost of production (all costs from utilities to R&D are in the final price), however many do not. I know how much it costs Vandersteen to make their higher end speakers and they are very expensive to produce. I am sure that some of the brands using esoteric drivers are the same. it's incrementally better and in some cases wildly better. If I had the money, I'm sure I'd be running the Vandersteen 7 mk 2's. No doubt in my mind. It's the best sound I've heard. I used to love the older Avalon's, but their value will go steadily down like Thiels and others who have changed hands recently. The irony is that I loved the older Avalons and even Sonus Faber and now I don't. Things change, but it's no different than the auto industry. They have to have safety items and the costs of both R&D AND newer materials along with THEIR R&D drive the cost of vehicles just like speakers using high end caps and carbon fiber drivers or even ceramics/diamonds etc... can become very expensive to produce, plus what many don't realize is the cost involved in matching drivers and crossovers to make sure both speakers are within tolerances isn't cheap either. Again, all manufacturers have a sweet spot in their lines that represent best value. The highest end speakers in the lines are not best value and are obviously not priced that way, but they are worth it to many who DO hear a difference and to THEM it's worth it as they have it. I take NOTHING away from those folks and they actually help support great speaker technology and R&D trickling down to our favorite speakers that are attainable for many of us.
The reverse snobbery is amazing to me to be honest. It really just hit me.
What makes an expensive speaker expensive? A target audience of very wealthy people who think more money buys the best. Up to a point its true. But, today's technology and understanding will hit a wall of not knowing what's the next improvement will be. After a point of some sonic benefits, its a matter of raising in price by over engineering - more and bigger... using the most expensive components that will many times become common place in the next generation.. Just look at past first generation most expensive components ... Now many are obsolete and may not even sound as good as what we now find in mid fi. ;) And, the fact that the very wealthy will never invite you over to hear his system. So? He can cloak himself in a mystique that exclusivity offers him. You will wonder what it is you are missing, when you may be missing what you already have. One of the most satisfying systems I ever heard was achieved by good quality components and a great room. Not expensive at all compared to the super systems.
Obviously too much audio gear is absurdly priced, but as long as there are buyers the vendor can keep up the sales...
In July of 2015 I drove from Northern Virginia to Sanford Florida in order to audition a pair of used Avalon Acoustics speakers. They sounded great, I forked over less than 1/4 of the new price, we packed them into my car and I made the long drive back home. Over the next month I listened to these speakers and came to understand why they are worth the new price (roughly $45k new, used 8-10k).
Amazing speakers. Completely changed my understanding of audio and all the music I had previously listened to on other speakers. Worth the price. Absolutely worth the price, but I would not buy them new unless I would not miss the $ spent. These speakers are worth the price differential compared to lesser speakers.
In August I was in Boulder Colorado where the factory is. I called and managed to secure a tour. What I saw there were quality craftsmen building massive and complex cabinets that weigh 150 lbs each. I saw top end drivers and crossovers, and internal wiring that goes beyond what the typical speaker includes. Each speaker represents a massive investment of time by craftsmen and engineers, as well as the R&D.
The same reason people buy Rolex or Philippe Patek ... status. They don't tell time any better. And after a certain price point - say, Revel Salon 2 territory - if listened to in a blind test, I doubt price (or certainly looks) would have anything to do with preferences.
I have been an audiophile for 50 years and have purchased a lot of very good equipment in those years. Motivated by awareness of Floyd Toole's work at JBL/Harman, I just purchased a JBL M2 Master Reference Monitor/Crown I-Tech 5000 system consisting 1250 watts of power to each tweeter and 1250 watts to each woofer by means of active DSP crossover incorporated into the amps. I found the system on discount at the local JBL pro dealer for $11,500 so I bought it on a lark. I have recently auditioned top of the line speakers from Vandersteen, PSB, Revel, and B&W diamond 3, driven by Mark Levinson, Audio Research, Classe, and the new Vandersteen amp. All are excellent products but my new system sounds just as good for a fraction of the cost. I am particularly smug in knowing that it probably sounds just as good at the ridiculously overpriced top of the line speakers from Wilson. ( which, to be fair, I have not heard) I would single out Wilson as being particularly pretentious. A local high end dealer who considered carrying Wilson and was wined and dined by them in Utah verifies this impression.
Simply put, I think the most expensive speakers are too much overpriced. I understand all the money that goes into RD and all the expensive materials and expensive manpower, but I also strongly believe that there is a limit for the production of any speaker that is much much lower than its price when it hits the market. What's the rational explanation for a speaker to cost more than $300,000? I recently had the opportunity to listen to one of the most expensive speakers in the world, the Marten Coltrane Supreme 2. I surely was impressed by the sound, but in the same day I listened to far cheaper speakers that impressed me as much or even more - like Canton, Tannoy, Aurum Cantus and some others. Comparing the price tags, listening to the Martens should have been an orgasmic experience! And it wasn't. These Marten are costing the same as a Lamborghini or a Ferrari! Why? Too much overpriced I say...
Put attention to the price – and if that speaker has a price
tag of 100,000 they will be consider excellent and amazing sound
“Money makers”= manufactures, know that high price consider”
best performance”
People believing in that and willing to pay
So, why not?
You see the reality of those overprice speakers when they reach
aoudiogon
Tidal that cost 80,000$ cannot be sold with a price tag of
$15,000
And the same is with speakers that only 2-3 years ago were claimed
to be the best in the world like YG ANAT that were priced for more than $100000
and on the second hand market cannot be sold with $20000
The high price has nothing with material and knowledge and design
All these Buzz words are an excuse to higher pricing
It seems like speakers are expensive to pay for research and development. Back in the 1970's, good speakers were developed, and then sold for years. The big Klipsch speakers can still be bought. I would like to see the speaker manufacturers pick a design, then focus on bringing costs down, rather than pass improvements down the line. Speakers are overpriced. The top of the line speaker in the 1970's sold for $2000. That would be no more than $15,000 today. I'm listening to a set of 40 yr old stacked original advents. They compete well with the speakers in the stores, basically because they get the important things right. I would have to spend $30,000+ dollars to get any real improvement, basically because of the Advents great tonal qualities and resolution. Yes, most speakers can do something better than the Advents, but the Advents do everything well. Someone needs to build a great all around speaker and run with it.
I've had a pair of Legacy Signature III's that I've had for years. The perform WAY beyond their price point. I paid $2100 for the pair used. They originally sold for $5000 in the oak finish like I have. They are amazing ... but the trick is, they have to be driven by a quality tube amp to sound their best.
Here's some reviews of the Sig III's, including mine:
One of my favorite speaker line is Venture. I've met the design engineer and builder many times ... and a true gentleman he is. His factory is located in Belgium, but he was born and grew up on China's mainland. The design and parts used are the very best on the planet. The finish on all of the Venture speakers is superb. Nothing is left to chance or built with anything but quality in the parts and in the construction of the Venture speakers. To my mind, the Venture speakers are worth every penny of what they retail for. They are an amazing speaker in every respect. Here's a link to the Venture speakers:
There are lots of great ideas and truths on this thread. Yes to the poster asking me about all of us hearing differently. I think it was Markel, who said of course. That's just a given in anything audio. That's why so many of us like different brands. Fremmer and many others love Wilson. They get them as a very very special cost, but wouldn't own them if they didn't like them. I know many designers of cables amps etc... as well as reviewers who own and use Vandersteen's (mostly the 5 CT's) for their own personal use let alone reviews or for their products. Honestly, I have heard Wilson and Vandersteen more than any other brands and it makes sense as they have been around forever and are at the opposite ends of the spectrum.
I can tell you that in any component you have business costs built in. That's just common sense and a must. There are many reason's some will buy speakers in the six figure market. Many have been posted already. I personally feel that most of these speakers have left me wanting more and or scratching my head asking HOW and WHY. Tidal is one of the few I've heard in this range that sound awesome, but then I hear the Vandersteen 7's the next week and realize that I'm getting even more musically involving sound and a bit tighter bass for half the cost. Again, even if you like another speaker, I'd say that you can get better sound than most of the 100k + speakers for much less if you really search and listen. JMHO
I just peeked at the speaker page at higherfi.com. They listed 27 different models with a six figure MSRP (tho most were offered at significant discounts). One model has a seven figure price tag. I'd invite anyone interested to peruse them and figure out how/if they justify their price tags. While you're pondering that, look at the variety of designs and you'll start to get a sense of how different they're likely to sound - one vs the next.
I can't say that I reached any hard conclusions, but I definitely found it an interesting exercise.
I agree with many of the above comments, but would add there are ways around exorbitant pricing, buying second hand, being the most obvious. Speakers seem ideal for used purchase, like cables. They naturally should have a longer life than electronics, with fewer bits to fail. I have had speakers that have worked perfectly well for over thirty years, passed on to family members.
Secondly you must understand the implications of a very small niche market. As others have said, fewer sales mean fewer units to bear the fixed costs of the company, R&D, marketing, Accounts etc.
Thirdly and most importantly, is just where does the seller spend his money. I had a long conversation with a small speaker manufacturer a few years ago, who shall be nameless. He estimated the building and parts costs of a large manufacturer, like say Wilson, as 25% of the total. So an $80000 pair of speakers costs about $20000 to build, which shocked me. Where does the rest go, Dealer and Distributor margins, Plant rent, heating, lighting etc, and so on. A very large part goes on Marketing evidently.
Now take a small one man operation, selling direct. Most of those costs are gone. No dealers, distributors, minimal marketing, just word of mouth and show attendance. The problem, well no massive R&D budget, so he is going to need very good ears to voice the speakers, with no complex, expensive machinery to do the job for him. If he has got good ears and I would say there are a lot of small manufacturers out there who seem to, then everyone can be a winner.
So what makes an Expensive speaker Expensive? Well, I'll chime in, but I'm sure that I won't solve a thing and will offend someone. Many of you know that I've built a lot of speakers and through the years, I've been inside of a lot of speakers. Most of what I'll say is accurate, but a bit conjecture and some just opinion.
First, the first thing that makes a good speaker good is understanding the parts used, knowing what response curves sound like, how crossover frequencies change everything because 1 driver may sound better at a given frequency so the crossover point is changed to have one part handle the frequency... a few 2 ways come to mind where the tweeter sounded better at 2k than the woofer, so even though the woofer could go out farther, the designer still crossed lower to use the better sounding tweeter in the upper mid frequencies.
Next what crossover slopes sound like and how the frequency crossed at and the slope affect phasing and time alignment.
Next cabinet design in conjunction with the drivers to get the drivers with the flattest response and time alignment necessary and to hear the speakers rather than the box.
So in short, the design is first and for most, regardless of cost.
My initial reaction toward most speakers until I hear them is skepticism. I have opened so many very expensive speakers, scratched my head and wondered "how can someone in good consciousness charge this for such a speaker".
I have also looked at speakers and have seen Diamond or Beryllium parts, maybe aluminum or magnesium, individual drivers that are so very expensive that I new that most likely that I wouldn't have the opportunity to build with these parts myself and then knowing how hard it is to take the peaks out of some of these very expensive parts and I hear them and hear music and accuracy....
My weakness is cabinetry. I can make a cabinet that in the end will make a nice sounding speaker, but when I see some of the beauty and artistic work in some of these speakers, I wonder just how much I would charge for a speaker made like that.
Sometimes, you have a designer that is truly a master craftsman in his driver selection and crossover work that those speakers automatically take them to the next level in pricing, then I see others that add the artwork in their cabinetry and I understand why they charge a premium.
Now, all that said, I truly believe that it is possible to design and deliver....lets say a $5,000 + speaker that can compete at a very high level and depending on the associated equipment could yes sound better than some multi-mega buck speakers.
And my last comment would be, $50,000 + speakers? I'm not sure any speaker is worth that, but I don't blame anyone for making a buck, its the people that are willing to pay that keep those few in business. Hey, they may be worth $50,000 or $150,000 to an individual and if they can afford it and aren't bankrupting their family to own them, more power to you......... and enjoy.
I can 100% guarantee that different people hear differently. All you need to do is grab a few friends and run some pitch training software. I've done it (part of a performance curriculum I took several years ago ) and you'll see fundamental differences in how different people perceive pitch and changes in pitch.
Different people also prioritize things differently, even if they're hearing the same thing. Take two speakers that are similar, but not identical in mid-range accuracy. The slightly more accurate speaker has less deep bass extension (or less clean max output or less high end extension, etc). Two people that hear things identically may well have different preferences depending on what benefit they prioritize.
Unless you have a perfect speaker (and you don't) preferences will differ.
I can 100% guarantee that different people hear differently. All you need to do is grab a few friends and run some pitch training software. I've done it (part of a performance curriculum I took several years ago ) and you'll see fundamental differences in how different people perceive pitch and changes in pitch.
Different people also prioritize things differently, even if they're hearing the same thing. Take two speakers that are similar, but not identical in mid-range accuracy. The slightly more accurate speaker has less deep bass extension (or less clean max output or less high end extension, etc). Two people that hear things identically may well have different preferences depending on what benefit they prioritize.
Unless you have a perfect speaker (and you don't) preferences will differ.
Cstooner, Wouldn’t some of the people who buy the big speakers also be the people who frequent the symphony and opera, maybe just to be seen there, but still there, listening? And wouldn’t these people at some point think to themselves, "My big speakers sound like crap, I’m going to trade them in on something else"?
Michael Fremer, who is probably one of the people most obsessed with sound quality in the world and who is very knowledgeable about it, owns some big Wilsons and even upgraded a few years back and stayed with Wilsons. His room, from what I read, is rather small and yet he gets sound that blows people’s socks off, again from what I read. What’s going on there? Could one element be that different people hear differently and therefore like different speakers?
I’m not saying that all expensive speakers are worth the money or that the more you spend the better the sound you get. In fact I’m sure you could spend $500,000 and end up with a system that sounds bad, but there must be something other than stupidity and deafness keeping the ultra high end speaker market alive..
Most people, myself included, don’t have rooms big enough to justify the most expensive home speakers which mostly tend to also be the largest.
If I did have an exceptionally large room that I could not cover for reasonable cost with home audio products I would look towards pro audio gear designed for larger venues for best chance at top notch sound for reasonable cost.
Of course if cost is no object then the world is your oyster....
Syntax, the thing is that not all products have 'cheap fluid'. I brought up Vandersteen because I am intimately familiar with the tech, R&D, product costs etc... I also look at the points a manufacturer gets when selling wholesale. I won't go into that part of things, but a few of the top lines don't have large margins and their products won't be carried because of this. That's reality and not always carrying the best products. Everyone needs to make money of course. I just hate it when we are gouged for no good reason other than greed. The market is what he market is and if you can fetch 100k or more for a speaker, then so be it. The market is there, but much of the time we will get as good or even better sound for much much less when we look at the other brand. That's my reality. I'll pay what I am able for what is fair. That's why I got the Vandy Treo's and why now, I'm going to sell those and get the Quatro's. For my money, the Quatro is the sweet spot in his line. All the technology from the 7 mk2's has made it's way to the Quatro for only 14k. That's a ton of money, no doubt, but when set up properly it's just sings. Big room eq'd bass and the carbon driver just sounds correct. It's also one of the few dynamic speakers I've heard that sounds like a point source. That is so hard to achieve and most designers try to. It's an expensive speaker to build no doubt.
...... He laughed and said that the replacement costs of all the drivers in their 50k speaker wouldn’t cost the owner more than 1k to replace/repair. They have off the shelf tweeters that only use a slight mod and the other cones are poly and paper. Not the cheapest drivers, but not expensive and easy to get if you are a DIY’r. The cost is in the cabinets.
Modern High End is like a boutique store.... expensive bottle .... cheap fluid
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