What is the “World’s Best Cartridge”?

The 'Debacle' of which Source Material works best for one individual to another is pretty much a fuel source that has been burnt.

There are small pockets of individuals, that can't let the embers burn out, the need to fan the flame and maintain some heat is a seen occurrence, especially when a Thread becomes very focused on the Vinyl LP as a Source and discussions on supporting ancillaries are at the forefront.

I have read a lot on digital replays over many years, and more recently read a lot about the options available to myself on streaming.

From recollections, I can't remember a user of a Vinyl Source, countering the discussions about the virtues of using a Vinyl LP recording, as better choice over a Digital Recording.

Using my own Set Up as a description of how the Two Recording Mediums are used, it is quite simple to Comprehend.

The mechanical designs required for replaying the Vinyl LP have been quite interesting to myself, and for nearly as long as CD has been available as a Source, I have pursued learning about the engineering that is offered with ancillaries required to be used when replaying the Vinyl LP.

I never quite adopted the same stimulus for the ancillaries required to replay CD as a Source.

Today, I run both the CD Source and the Vinyl LP Source in parity to each other, when it comes down to enjoying a replay experience.

The difference is that the ancillaries used for CD, are remaining to be unstimulating to be investigated to see where there is a mechanical improvement to be found. With Vinyl the interest still remains strong, and I am actively pursuing encounters to see what is still to be learned.

In a nutshell, I have adopted Two Mediums, where one medium that I use, has a need for supporting ancillaries that I have a secondary passion for. This as a Medium is the one that become available for mainstream use 64 Years ago in 1948. This is in use, in Parity, with a Digital Medium that become mainstream available 40 Years ago in 1982.

It is hard to see where the two such antiquated mediums, are able to attain such a competitive position toward each other, where each is contested for their superiority of usage.

Interestingly from my end, the Digital Streaming Replay method, which is relevant and off the now, and not as such, an antiquated Medium, does seem to be recognised for being a replay method that is very dependent on ancillaries that are noticeable in the impact they can have on a SQ / Presentation. Learning about the influences of these ancillaries does have a certain stimulus, more so, than CD replay in my case.             

      

Some questions are difficult to answer. Some smart ''.. ''asked the religious

kind: ''Can Almighty make such havy stone which he can't lift?'' 

Some members posting in this thread seem to believe as digital “measures” better than analogue, it must be better and every audiophile should find digital better. I think they are missing a couple of points. 

 

First, are we measuring the right things, and all of the right things, that affects our emotional response and enjoyment to music reproduced in a system? When CD was introduced, engineers already told us it was “Perfect Sound Forever”, with much lower distortion and wider dynamic range than LP etc. See what happened since than? New type of digital distortion called “jitter” was discovered, which was never measured, or at least not shown in products’ specifications, before. It was certainly new for audiophiles! Now we have DSD, DSD512 etc., and same old story we are still being told it measures better than analogue, so can we be sure no more new types of digital distortions will be discovered in the future? 

 

The second point is there is a personal side to our reactions to distortions, some of us are just more sensitive to a certain kind of distortion than others. Just to share a recent experience, I and my friend visited another audiophile, who had a high-end digital base system with all the room correction functions etc. While the sound was not my cup of tea, I didn’t hear any obvious distortion. However, after listening for a while, I felt the muscles at the back of my neck tensed up, and with passing time, I felt slight physical pain starting from the back of my ears all the way down the neck! What is interesting is that both the audiophile and my friend didn’t share the feeling！

 

I want to point out that I rarely have this reaction on audio systems, digital or analogue. The last time I had similar reaction, but a lot less severe, was with a first generation CD player.

 

The point I want to stress is that since my friend and the audiophile didn’t have the same reaction, I have to conclude that I am just more sensitive to the particular type of distortions in that system. To expand from this, I think it is certainly possible that, we who prefer analogue may just be more sensitive to the types of distortions in digital, even though the “measured” distortion maybe lower! 

 

Of course, the opposite can also be true, audiophiles who prefer digital may just be more sensitive to distortions in analogue!

If you don’t like my not taking a position, is that your final position on my not taking a position? My position is that many LPs are not great sounding but many are great sounding even compared to live music, and we attend live performances once or twice a month both in local clubs and at the Kennedy Center. RBCDs are good for when I want to read a book or as background for a party but there’s no way I can listen to them for long if I’m serious about listening. SACDs and the like are better IF they were recorded as SACDs. So in general the silver discs are a yawn. I don’t have RTR, so that’s out. I believe that hi Res digital streaming may outperform LPs. I’m sure hi-rez streaming measures better if done right. I also own 2500 LPs, so I play them. This is a hobby and a source of personal pleasure, not a military exercise.

Then if you don't took position in the overall issue why in " hell " you are posting about.

Please don't go around: which your take about your today position? thank's in advance and please try not " dead silence ".

 

R.

Do you understand that I took no position in the statement you’ve quoted? I said the proposition was not resolvable, only. If you think you can “prove” with data the notion that digital is superior, there will always be others who won’t agree. That’s life.

Dear @mijostyn : " wooden bodied cartridges and their sonic performance was not as good as (read colored) the best metal units and their construction quality was not as good. Wood is not a good substrate for a cartridge. "

 

Cartridge body material is " only a part of the overall parts in the cartridge design and yes it’s important but I think that the designer knows more than you or me how his designs performs in the whole context and inside the designer targets. Normally wood cartridge materials are " treated " in several ways.

 

I have good experiences with wood cartridge bodies through the time. My first one was the Brier great vintage performer but my first Benz Micro was the Ruby 2 and I like it and I like it so much that I bougth its LP model that did not like me but his LPS is very good performer and the Colibri still is at the top along other today ones as could be MSL. I own the Koestsu RSP and even that I normally do not like the Koetsu signature the Platinum wood is very good. In this thread @mglik almost " die for " his Grado Epoch.

Not only wood material was or is used for cartridges but with TTs too as the Teres Or Sota and even in tonearms as Durand or Grace ( I owned the Sota and the Grace tonearm. )

 

Almost all first hand experiences and yes inside my room/system and MUSIC/sound priorities.

 

R.

 

So, I disagree with you in that specific regards. Maybe not the best cartridge body material but it works and works fine.

@lewm  No, I did not, you posted: " 

" Which is maybe why it’s degenerated into an even more endless and unresolvable debate about analog vs digital "

If you already solved then why posted that? and if you resolved then please share with all of us your take. Welcomed.

 

R.

Raul, once again you unfairly presume to know what I think. 

Absolutely Wonderful, we 'Love' what inspired, and will defend our choices made, unashamedly, with the ambient, baying in their attempts to put reputations at stake.

@pindac 

Many years ago I bought a Leak Stereo 20 off a guy and he gave me all his classical 33rpm records, including many superb recordings from the 50's/60's, for free when I picked the amp up.

I asked him why - he said he preferred 78's and was sticking with them.

I was listening to a Radio Programme the other day, where a recording was played from an Interview with a founder of the CD Technology as the World knows it.

The Interview went from the breakthrough to the Music Medium it was used for and how it compared to its predecessor the Vinyl LP.

The interviewee was biased to the core for CD 's superiority, making bold claims for how it was technically much improved over the capabilities of the Vinyl LP.

On Paper it might have been and on Paper as a medium for recording all different data it was much more versatile than the Vinyl LP.

40 Years in the debacle continues, there are still multiples, with an interest in replaying recorded music, that are not too sure of the Superiority of the CD as a Source, and who vociferously reject the notion, and remain with the tradition of using the Vinyl LP.

I wonder, if those who were at the forefront of the Vinyl LP Medium being produced, were as critical of the predecessor Shellac, and kept the putting down Shellac as a Medium for 40+ Years throughout the heyday of the Vinyl LP.

   

Hereby Resolved These Resolutions:

Resolved The best cartridge will be the one that matches the tonearm in use, in this case the Triplanar, since the ability of the tonearm to track the cartridge is paramount to the cartridge, which is penultimate.

Resolved Analog vs digital will be on-going until digital is so much better that LP production ceases.

Resolved These statements will make no difference to anyone entrenched in their arguments per human nature.

I am fine, as long as we can keep this a forum with friendly echange of opinions. We are all a combi of subjective and objective experience. Subjective sometimes lies before objective - look folks, this is what my ears tell me. Endless and unsolvable debate - no, I dont agree. Even if not always interesting.

Isnt this the nature of a forum like this? We do our best, to arrive at a better sense of the truth. It always avoids us, of course. Our muse is only partially there. But the free debate in itself is a rich source of information, we are better informed, not just "sheep" to use the term in Pink Floyd: Animals (which btw sounds good, more clear, from the new 2018 mastering on vinyl, in my system).

Dear @lewm : " even more endless and unresolvable debate about analog vs digita "

Unresolvavle? really ? certainly could be " unresolvable " for you and the full biased subjectivists but not for me and other gentlemans with real/true open mind/unbiased.

 

R.

Nandric pointed out that the question posed by the OP is poorly conceived. So did I and others at the top of this thread. Which is maybe why it’s degenerated into an even more endless and unresolvable debate about analog vs digital. By now we know where most of us stand on that issue.  But some of us nevertheless expect to “win”. That’s not going to happen.

Dear @o_holter : " It is amazing that it is still competitive. ", amazing and incredible for say the least.

But exist a deep and main reason why of that and the reasonis that almost all of us was what for many years were accustom to listen it and what does it means this fact: simple we are accustomed to the LP developed high distortions it’s what we like even if its wrong and this is not the issue. The deep main reason is that: we are accustomed to those LP sound alond its developed distortions.

Whe appeared the CD as even today we " like it " but do not " like it ", we always have an argument against digital even arguments that are totally false.

We refused and refuse to really think deep down there and ask our self: what are we missing with digital medium? because this is the issue. Here M Lavigne posted that LP is " complete " and obviously and against digital this medium is incomplete.

My take is that all of us are missing through digital medium ALL THE ADDED DISTORTIONS DEVELOPED THROUGH THE RECORDING AND PLAYBACK PROCCESS .

Our brain knows something is " different " down there.

If you take a little of time and make a check-up of all the steps in the playback proccess where the cartridge signal must pass you can understand in more objective way my take my statement about. The cartridge signal playback path is a long tortuose path for the way sensitive cartridge signal and at each of those " thousands " path steps the cartridge signal integrity goes degrading and degrading till we can listen. Maybe in what we can listen are " nice distortions " ( we are accustom for. ) in 30% or maybe 40% of the original signal. Digital is way direct and if anything more complete and nearer truer to the recording it does not matters that we don’t like it so much what we are listning and till we think a little with ovjectivity the LP will stays extremely " competitive " no matters what.

Btw, one of those false argument in favor of LP is that " we listen analog not in digital " but is false because what our ears and body are perciving with digital what comes in is just a SPLs waves exactly in similar way that the SPL waves that comes in from LPs, this is not the issue. Other false argument is that LP moves us more emotionally than digital to the degree that digital could be boring. Other false argument: " When digital is truly better there won’t be cartridge and tonearm manufacturers "" and is false because exist thousands and thousands audiophiles that own thousands of LPs and that " loves " reissues.

I asked you which is your MUSIC REFERENCE and your answer is full of subjectivity: " what we like it ".

I asked you because when talking of digital vs analog almost all always compare digital against the LP REFERENCE or the R2R REFERENCE when in reality and overall those mediums can’t be a MUSIC REFERENCE .

We can argue against that but for me the only true reference are the live events we attended and attend seated at near field position that even at nearer position ( that we can seat. ) is where the recording microphones are " seated " and where pic-up the signal coming from the MUSIC sources.

If we don’t have yet enough lisent experiences like that then we really do not know what I’m talking about and why I repeat and repeat that " nearer and truer to the recording " that in my point of view should be the main target for any audiophile/MUSIC lover.

Sure I can be wrong but not only in this thread but in many others over the years I posted that statement in this and other web forums. Only an opinion.

Anyway, thank’s for your answers,

 

R.

 

But to my ears, there are digital problems too, often larger than the analog problems (even if the gap has narrowed).

 

😁 If digital were really that much better there would be no discussion about cartridges, tonearms, where you bought that record and the like. It would be moot. Its not; its been 41 years since the inception of the CD and LPs are still around. Can we finally agree that digital is merely incremental in its improvements? I've no doubt that one day it will be better in every way... when that day comes people won't argue about it.

Anytime a new technology appears, if it is truly superior the prior art vanishes and becomes a thing of collectors for nostalgia only. I like to point to the example of side valves in internal combustion engines. Overhead valves showed up and no-one looks back- they are more reliable and offer vastly improved performance. As a result no-one puts side valves in cars anymore. Its not worth it!

When digital is truly better there won't be cartridge and tonearm manufacturers, no LPs produced and so on.

I was asked about my music reference. I go for the best sound I hear, regardless of format. No prejudice. Sometimes the CD sounds great, better than the LP, or the streaming, or the sacd or dvd-audio - and so on. Probably mainly because it was mastered and cut more precisely to the specific format, or they had a lucky day, or whatever. But in general, AAA (all analog recorded) LPs are my choice cuts. But also more processed recordings. I go for the best sound. Not just acoustic or vocal but full scale prog rock or classical also. world music. Lots of references.

Like one bought just now, Toure, Al Farka, with Ry Cooder: Talking Timbuktu - 2 x 180g, World circuit 2015 - marvellous guitar sound and string interplay. For female vocal, Rosalia: Motomami on LP is superior to digital in my system. And for a "fat" prog rock sound - Deep purple: Whoosh, Ear music 2020 - try ’Man alive - likewise the LP version sounds better. To my ears in my system.

Hi rauoliregas

I know - by your standards I am maybe a subjectivist eating bananas. And I have not heard a lot of top notch carts. Although we disagree on some points, I appreciate your comments, and your search for more objectivity. I agree that analog is truncated, limited and problematic in many ways. It is amazing that it is still competitive. But to my ears, there are digital problems too, often larger than the analog problems (even if the gap has narrowed). Digital is still not "perfect". Likewise, my 'purist' tube system may introduce distortions you would not like, but then again, I lived with top solid state for many years, and don't miss it. Or - truth to be told - only a little bit ; -).

i think it's a mistake to use generalizations about materials to be the final arbiter of choice. it does take the pressure off actually investigating with an open mind and ears. i do respect it is simpler just to read specs and throw out pronouncements.

there is this thing called listening. we can listen and look at the components of the cartridge, but unless we could listen with various different material choices we don't really know what is causing what.

i have opinions about materials, but am not religious about it. 

we all have our own approach. and result. YMMV.

@solypsa, again, this is my personal experience and guides my own cartridge purchases. I have had two wooden bodied cartridges and their sonic performance was not as good as (read colored) the best metal units and their construction quality was not as good. Wood is not a good substrate for a cartridge. Unless it is resin treated wood is not stable, it expands and contracts with humidity. An ideal cartridge body has to be dense, stable and non resonant. Even resin treated wood is not dense enough. If you had to make a wooden cartridge Lignum Vitae would be the best choice and no one uses it!  Using a "tone wood" is a huge joke as in cartridge profile wood has no tone, that is it's advantage, it does not ring unless it is planed very thin. 

Our definition of a cottage industry differs. It is easier to define not cottage industry as larger, well established companies with a long history of making highly rated cartridges with mature technology. This does not guaranty fine performance, nothing does. As an example, DS Audio does not qualify in my eyes because I do not think it's technology is mature yet. In my eyes Lyra and Soundsmith are not cottage industries. I should also note that it is possible for a cottage industry cartridge maker to make a fine cartridge. IMHO just less likely. I am not going to plop down 10 large on less likely. 

@larryi , given the right circumstances the old 57 could be a fine performer. The Levinson HQD system was the first system that I would qualify as SOTA in it's day. It's main problems were reliability and durability. It was neither. 

Tubes may in some people's minds sound better but it is relatively rare for them to be more accurate. Human's are instinctively drawn to fire and light. Fire and light are safety and security. I am not kidding. Human behavior frequently has an instinctive basis. Women like SUVs because they place them above the traffic. They like being up higher. Higher is safety. You can see your enemies coming and hide your children. My pack rat mentality in an instinctive behavior. You never want to run out of ammunition. 

Comaring versus ''attributing ''  property to wahtever objject..

The later has the grammar form: ''x is P''

The former has more ''subjects'' than one: John is longer than Peter''.

We get in trouble when x state that John is longer than Peter but y

state the othee way round or state that Dover is even longer than

both mentioned (grin).

In all coutries implicite ''longer than relation'' is transformed in

names for properties. Say Stefanos is large and Miotakis short or small.

But when Stefanos moves to Holland he loses the property LARGE

because the Dutch are longest people in the wolrd.

How than can Stefano's lose the property ''large'' if he ''has the

propertt large''? Because of the grammar ? 

No because sentence form ''x is P'' is not suiitable for comparisons. 

Frege started from there when he wanted to invent languge suitble

for science. That is that accordidin to him ''ordinsry llanguge'' is not

suitable for science. He is called ''father of modern logic''.

In this thread members try to put their opinions in ''x is P'' form

not realizing that comparisons can't be put in this grammar form. 

To know which cart is ''world's best'' one would need to compare

all carts ever produced.but than ''rank them'' according to his subjective

preference. We will than get that, say, accoridng to Raul C is the best

which will be denided by dover because according to him D is the best.. 

Assuming ordening according to:  a,b,c,... n'' conditions. 

Shortly After Lockdown, I was to have Cartridge produced, which was to have PC Triple C/EX Tag Wires produced that were to bypass the Pins and Connect directly to the coils.

The Styli was to be a bespoke selection set on a Cactus Needle Cantilever.

The Body was to be Five Coat Urushi Lacquered, applied by a Japanese Military Equipment Renovator, who had been taught the application skills whilst residing in Japan.

I am still curious about how such a design will deliver.

It might prove to be the 'Best Cartridge in the World' for my purposes or not.

@mijostyn your list makes sense to me. Representing two cartridge brands that use non metallic bodies informs me differently on that topic but I do see your point.

On the topic of 'cottage industry' perhaps our definitions differ. I would put Lyra and SoundSmith in the cottage category. In fact I am not sure anyone making lomc isn't except Ortofon, Audio Technica and Excel. Maybe not even them .... What is the definition? Owning the supply chain and processing material from raw?

@solypsa, The question comes down to what cartridge I want to buy. It is rare to be able to evaluate a cartridge's sonic performance appropriately on your own turntable.  As time goes on, having dealt with quite a few cartridges you develop preferences. Any cartridge I buy is going to be a low impedance moving coil. They seem to be the only moving coil cartridges that with a transimpedance phono stage match the dynamics of the best moving magnet and iron cartridges yet maintain the nuance of a moving coil. It must have some type of fine line stylus. I have heard the Gyger S, the Replicant 100, the Soundsmith OLC and the MSL fine line. They are all excellent. It must have either a Boron or Diamond cantilever. It must have a sturdy, resonance free metal body. The wooden bodied cartridges I have owned have all been colored or poorly manufactured. The cartridge has to be perfectly aligned or so close that I can not tell it is off and I measure each and every cartridge I get. Reviews also factor in to some degree as does the manufacturer's reputation and stability. I will not buy a cartridge from a cottage manufacturer. 

Unfortunately, meeting all these requirements is no guarantee of great performance but it is a good start. Again, these are my own personal preferences or biases. If money was a real issue I would buy a Soundsmith Voice. It is the best cartridge for the money I have ever had direct experience with and it is high output!   

Dear @o_holter : " . The digital version is good, but still has a way to go. " my recordings still hold a candle to streaming "

Sure because is a " fake " digital version not an original digital version and because your take is full of subjectivity with out analising for your self what in reality are you listen it through analog. Obviously you don’t care about and you don’t care ( as almost all analog lovers . ) because that’s what you like it: subjectivity again.

Almost always that we are making comments on digital and analog recording experiences almost all of us compare digital listen experience against same LP analog experience and this kind of reference IMHO is way wrong.

I think that not only is way wrong but unnaceptable because both mediums not only are way different but the analog MUSIC information we are listening comes " truncated ": no one analog rig/cartridge can pick up all the recorded information in the LP grooves against digital that’s nearer and truer to the recording . There are other objective reasons why we almost always are comparing airplanes against a banana and you are not alone in this thread because between others M Lavigne did it on that specific regards.

 

Obviously that to each his own.

 

All subjectivist gentlemans almost always just diminish objectivity in so hard way that forget of it.

Btw, which your MUSIC reference?

 

R.

 

 

 

 

 

 

+1 to atmasphere. The tonearm match is a key variable. Along with the cart output / phono stage match, which also includes a compromise between what you can accept of background noise for getting the best sound. Speaking as a tube enthusiast (converted after many years of investing upwards in solid state without quite getting what I wanted). I play flutes, some guitar,  etc - and playing along with the music from the stereo is my sure-fire method of finding what I like and not.

I am not sure, when I prefer my Atlas cart compared to digital streaming, and even (often) my digital recordings from LPs, how much is due to the specific capabilities of the Atlas, and what would be the result with a less costly cart. I am part of a group of music lovers regularily meeting for an evening, hosted by each of us, so we get to hear many music systems. We have an unwritten rule: this is NOT an audio testing and comparison event, who has the best system, and so on. Works fine. And I have learned to listen for the positive aspects of each system, and try to look away from limits and faults. Good idea. We tend to converge, listening to LPs rather than digital, on these evenings - regardless of the low middle or high cost of the cart and the rest of the system. At the same time, I do hear what the Atlas is capable of. Maybe especially, very delicate and refined treble, compared to digital (including 24 - 192 hi res), easy to hear with female vocal like Rosalia: Motomami, for example (digital sounds good; the LP sounds great). Also, the Atlas has fairly "explosive" dynamics, and is no slouch on bass, as others have noted. So I think, all in all, that it is a good idea to invest in a good cart, even if it is costly. This is where the musical information starts, and the job of the rest of the chain is to reproduce it as faithfully as possible.

mijostyn, I see you try some other approach than the one in your

previous post. Probable to improve your ''status'' . Alas this will not do,.

We buy ''new carts'' out of curiosity but in order to try. If we are satisfy

after ''listening cesions'' we will keep the cart. Otherwise get rid of it

by (re) reselling the thing.

Thanks to Raul we got the chance to do this ''luxury'' approach for free. 

BTW when we look at ''technical specs'' of carts they all look as one

egg to one other, except  by Allearts . His are unbelievable but his carts

do not sound better than some other with ''less impresive'' specs.

See Raul's preference for ADC 26  in comparison. 

I mentioned some problems with quatifier ''ALL'' but would like to say more

about this, uh, ''expression.''.

The first paradox mentioned was about ''Greek liar''  by, uh, the old Greek.

The Greek who stated that ALL Greek are liear''. But becuse he is also Greek...

this means that all are stating truth..

The 'set theoretic paradoxes'' occured by ''SET OF ALL SETS'' 

If we have no idea about what we talking  about than...

Russel try to solve  the problem by limiting ''extension of sets''. Aka ''about

which set are we talking ?''

BTW Frega was fthe first who ''placed the problem '' in the context of ''generality'.

We use those terms (quantifier) to express ''generality'' ..In english literture

called ''universality'' and hence: ''universal quantifier'. But the question

''how many'' is anwered by 'numerical quantifier'' . Politians in Euroipe whio

have no idea about this difference caused not only immigrants problems but

alo ''energy problem'' by sanctions against ''all Russian raw materials'' . 

Well Europe lack those while Russia owns one third of the world naturl

resources.  At present Europe has next to immigrants crisis also ''energy crisis''

caused by polititian who make laws.but have no idea about their implications

The so called ''Club of Rome'' warned about scaricity of row materials in 1972!

@mijostyn You can say a lot of things about a cartridge without hearing it by virtue of it's design and quality of manufacture

I am curious what your preferences / biases are when evaluating design and manufacturing quality from 'afar'? ( since this will be based not on listening or a physical examination).

 

Thanks

 

 

 

IME the kind of cartridge you have matters far less than does the ability of the tonearm to really track it properly. I hear far more dramatic differences on this basis. I've yet to find a tonearm that tracks a wider range of cartridges than the Triplanar; likely this is because its also one of the most adjustable tonearms made.

At any rate the ability of a cartridge to track properly in a given tonearm varies due to the mass and compliance of the cartridge (since that interacts with the mass of the arm). Since @mglik has a Triplanar it follows that we are looking at a subset of all cartridges: those that are most suited for that arm.

@nandric. You can say a lot of things about a cartridge without hearing it by virtue of it's design and quality of manufacture. The more experience you have the better.

No, you can not say what the cartridge sounds like but the purchasing decision is more frequently than not made without auditioning the cartridge in the purchaser's system. Not only this but there is wide variation on what "sounds good" means. Most audiophiles have no idea what they are listening too. They have no experience with measurement techniques that tell you what your system and room are doing and the variation between channels. What they think "sounds good" is just what they are use to hearing. Most audiophiles have never heard a system with state of the art imaging. 

Lord this is so simple, It is the cartridge you are listening to. It is the only cartridge that matters. 

Claims that one selection is ubiquitously correct and are the precedent are precious.

From personal experience, most discoveries of a choice made/to be made, that proves to be satisfying and have more attraction over others, are intermittent or even fortuitous. 

The choices made by one, and the perceptions of the end experience, are not going to prove ubiquitous to all who choose. 

pindac, May I call your opproach ''holistic'' and my ''analitic'' . By you everything

is connected witth each other  while my approucs is reduction of complexity. 

Say reduction of grammar form to : X is P . In place of variable x one can put

whatever ''subject'' one want as well in the place of ''P'' ( aka predicate) as

''property'' or ''quality'' expressions. Try to construct an RELATIONAL STATEMENT

with this grammar form. What I mean is that  '''X is P'' is not suitable

for relational .statements which  imply more  subjects than one. Well comparing

cartridges are such ''many subjects'' statements. ''The best'' means the best

from many while quantifier  ALL ''shows'' the problem . Who knows ALL 

cartridges ever made? Even Raul with his +100 samples has chosen ADC 26

while owning also Jan Allearts ''formula I'' with many ''sans'' from Jspan..

The same result as empirical approach by dover. We don't know how many he

owns but we do know which he likes the most. I don't believe that his or Raul's choice is , say, ''VERY EXPENSIVE'' . So what is the relation beween price

and ''quality'' of sound? 

@nandric I said I leaned toward your assessment of the contributions, which was your questioning of how such offered evaluation can be attained and seen to be without contention. 

My own expressed thoughts on how such an evaluation can be attained, are not my attempts to interpret your pattern of thought, your queries are valid and from a perspective that is correctly aligned to the subject.

My own queries are more from the perspective of what are the requirements of the parameters needed to be put in place to qualify the assessments offered to be Bonafide and dependable.

Price of Cartridge and Price of System used for demonstration of such Cartridge seems to be the most important factor as the guideline. Under the guise of more outlay means more for your money.

I work on the Basis that certain products are priced, not as their production as a whole is reflected in their given value, but more that the Niche Market can ask for such a Value.

My experience, that I made known, is that I have been demonstrated Cartridges of substantial Value on Systems that are of a Substantial Value but was not left with an impression based on subjective evaluation, that I was being demonstrated a contender for a 'World's Best Cartridge'.

My own account of my experiences, suggest that when a Cartridge is demonstrated in a System, and the impact of that encounter is positive, inspiring and an attractor, being seen as worthwhile for aspiring to.

Then this encounter surely puts one nearer the place, where they can claim there is a contender for their Best Cartridge Experienced.

From my end, that is what really counts, is how an encounter has impacted on a person and how they are shaped by such an encounter, at some stage their need to search for further improvement will become less important when satisfying experiences are encountered and if need be, adopted into use. 

 

Dear all, I appreciate your comments including mathematics, statistics, brain science, and so on. Here - something more practical.

The question for me is not what is best analog or digital, but how to get the best of both. Like others I use digital mainly for searching out new music – what can be worth it, buying on LP. Analog still connects more with me emotionally - like Bernie Grundman emphasises in the video above.

So this is what I do. I mainly play LPs in my main rig, and digital in my home office and elsewhere. The main rig includes Lyra Atlas and Aesthetix Io phono stage. But then I bring in this little trick – a good digital recorder (Tascam DA-3000). So the best LPs are recorded to double DSD which is the best digital format I’ve tried so far (and I have moved up the steps).

The Atlas – to my ears – is very good indeed and a good match with the Io. Sure, there may be better carts but this has to be evaluated in context. The Atlas has a quite strong 0.56 mv output and the phono stage likes it. I could go lower, but then, I would be even more dependent on ultra low noise tubes in the first gain stage, which can be hard to find (esp NOS). So context and synnergy – with the phono stage, arm and player (etc) - is very important not just the cartridge on its own.

So, what happens with the ‘trick’? Recording LPs is work and takes time. Some have argued that double DSD is so good you cannot hear the difference from playing the LP direct. Well, in my system I can. The digital version is good, but still has a way to go. Probably, some tweaks to the Tascam recorder could fix some of this difference. An engineer told me that improving the power rails into the AD section(possibly with an external LPS), replacing the downstream op amps with better pieces, and replacing the internal clock and PS to the clock with an aftermarket internal clock, could be a way to go. I have not had it done, and it may be hard to get the Tascam schematics for the job.

I recorded to R2R for many years and still have my trusted old Revox A77 at my loft. Maybe I should get it serviced and upgraded, but I am not sure how to get it done within reasonable cost. Or if I would actually use it. Would I go into buying the best music in analog tape format? Even when I’ve already invested in vinyl versions etc before? Not sure about that - but then, I dont know much about cost or availability (maybe someone here can inform me).

The great thing for me, now, about digital, is about convenience. And yes, I admit it – sometimes about clarity, beyond what I hear from LPs. The gap between streaming (in my case, Qobuz) and records has become smaller, and I appreciate that. Convenience means finding new music through streaming – but also, recording from the analog Atlas/Io chain. With a small DAP - digital audio player (in my case Fiio x3ii) - I can bring the sound from my main rig wherever I want. Or most of it. Comparatively speaking, the Revox A77 weighs a ton. It is not something to bring along – although I can remember doing it, to good effect, to parties in the 1970s.

It is remarkable that even with the comparatively «stone age» technology of vinyl record playback, through all the troubles of cart, arm and phono setup, and digitial recording from that, my recordings still hold a candle to streaming. I often find them better, in the longer run. This is what I listen to into the night. Once again, more emotional. Even though I hear some reduction of clarity, some pops and ticks, etc. Maybe, it is the atmosphere, the more natural ambience - or just my old man’s ears.

 

pindac, I am talking about LOGIC of used  sentences or statement which

include ''universal quantifier'' you about ''price '' and old classical economist

terms ''value in use'' as opposite to  ''value in exchange'' (aka price). 

I assumed that we all question any ralation  between ''quality of sound''

and the prices for our ''gear''. Think of  Dover's praise of this cheap

Denon which cost only a half of ''only stylus retip''. I have no idea why

he offered to me only half of an glas wine. Should I visit him all the

way to (Dutch) New Sealand for such ''PRICE''?  

Does the "World's Best Cartridge" the term adopted by the OP, and the OP's references to their other experiences of substantially expensive Cartridges.

Suggest that in their assessment the Cartridges that are seen to be coming in $10/£12 - $25/£30 per replay, if using a 1000 Hours of user life is the guideline, are the Cartridges to be considered only as the 'World's Best'.

As most users of HIFi equipment buy in a price range they are comfortable with, most users of the Vinyl LP as a Source, would not be in a position to comment on such an item that incurs this type of cost.

I am well-Travelled in my attempts to experience new encounters in HiFi, where the creating a broader knowledge of the equipment used in a Vinyl Source has been the goal. 

In relation to having experienced a TOTR Cartridge from a recognised Brand with a growing reputation for their use of Technology, I will suggest the DS Audio Grandmaster used in a System that has approx' £200 000 is the most expensive Cart' I can put a price label on.

I have heard TOTR Cart's from other Brands and know I have heard Lyra's and Transfiguration Cart's in non-owned systems.

More interestingly for myself, is that using subjective listening an assessment method, carried out on non-owned and quite different built systems.                         I have not discovered a Cartridge that stands out as unique and must have, even though the possibility is for some, that they would not fit into a Cartridge Budget allocated by myself.

There are other questions as well, what actually qualifies a Cartridge to be given a Tile the 'World's Best' or even the Title 'Contender to be the World's Best'.

If subjective evaluation is to be the assessment parameter, as it seems to be for the OP, definitely for myself, and I am sure multiple others with an acquired experience.

The outcome of selections is looking likely to be quite varied across contributors.

One other criterion, that would also need to be added into the assessments being made are the control measures for the consistency of the report.

Are all assessments undertaken using the same supporting ancillaries?

Which prior experiences undertaken by the assessor, would deem the assessor qualified to make their evaluations being made known to the Public, to have any credibility.

Which would be the selection of supporting ancillaries for the Cart', to be used in conjunction with, are the ones that can be agreed on, to ensure there is a fair evaluation being undertaken.

Due to the function of the Cart', environmental impact can be considerably degrading to the Cart's function. Which are the ideal environmental conditions, to be present when making an evaluation.   

My experiences to date, have shown myself that the most engaging and desirable experiences that have proven to be very attractive, are when carried out in a home, where a system has been built over many years of devotion and the choices made for particular devices and their mounting, have undoubtedly been correct for the Set Up in that unique environment. 

I have been fortunate to have heard Cart's with values of up to £5000 in these types of conditions and have been thoroughly impressed.

In my experiences, I could quite easily live with a Cart' experienced from these encounters.

In my limited experience, it is not too easy to see where a Three - Fivefold increase in Cart' purchase value would offer a more engaging experience and stand out to the level where it justifies the extra expense, if I am using the recollection of other attained experiences of a more expensive Cart'.

I'm leaning towards @nandric assessment of the contributions and will add that in general the human has to offer some kind of purported reasoning for a made decision, especially when associated with the action of making a purchase that is encroaching on being one that is an absolute luxurious acquisition.             

miijostyn, I try to explain expressioon ALL as universal quantifier.

Experession ''some'' is unversal existential quantifier. t assuems

existance. But those are NOT NAMES which in ''subject place'' of

an sentence can be put as refering.expressions.

Perhapes ''some'' will do as in complaint: :''someone has stolen my car''.

If you knew who this ''someone'' is you would not use expression ''some''.

European commission decided thst ''ALL IMMIGRANTS HAVE THE RIGHT

TO ASYLUM PROCEDURE. Without consulting member  state HOW MANY

they are willing to accept. Merkel stated' 'we will manage'' without any

iidea about  the numeber (aka ''how many'') of immigrants. For this

purpose the so called NUMERICAL quanrifiers are needed. Say 10 or

50 mllion.etc. BTW Holland can't manage those immigrants because only

an smal part satisfy conditions for ASYLUM . Each country has rules

reg. treatment of strangers.

The ''best student in the class''  assume say 30 person in the class but

the ''best studenin the world'' can't be known.

The ''best cartridge '' is relational term because it imply comparison among

HOW MANY CARTRIDGES? Can you make any statement about cartridges

which you have never heard? Those are INCLUDED in ''ALL CARTRIDGES''

in this thread. 

I already mentioned in my post that this question can be only answered in

the context of ''my cartriges are ...and from them the one that I like the

most (aka ''is the best'') is ,say, Ikeda'' FR-7fz . Raul owns _+ 100 and

from THOSE he seems to like ADC26 the most. Capiche?

thread 

 

 

I have no trouble understanding @rauliruegas  and in general I tend to agree with him but other than, " I do not believe that the members of this thread realize what they are talking about," I have no idea what @nandric is trying to say. Is this just me or are others having the sane problem? Nandric, we are talkin about cartridges. You know, those silly things we clamp to the end of out tonearms.

Dear @mikelavigne : With all respect and re-reading your posts in this thread shows me that your mental attitude changed a little in the last months or years ( no issue with because averything is changing always. ) and I don’t know if is because the " pressure " over your system and way of thinking in the thread or because you really changed. Let me explain about:

first I can read that you bougth the Dava by the " be spoke " in the forum and that I remember that was not " normal " in you on personal audio issues. The Dava stampede strated around 2020 by " be spoke " gentlemans mainly in your forum and exactly as today ( 2 years latter. ) with no web site by the manufacturer and not only neither cartridge measurements but not even ( till today ) specs . Yes, all of you Dava owners can say: who cares, we like what we listen with.

Obviously you are a part of that stampede and obviously a follower and I never knew this " follower " new attitude in you.

 

Next two statements by your part that speaks of other change:

 

" why do i even come to Audiogon? sillyness. "

" i simply do not see the value to me in this thread. "

 

It looks as something way " presumptuous " and I can’t remmeber you that way. Fine with me, no problem.

 

" ultimate performance does not involve digital.....in any step. "

 

that’s your today subjective " absolutism ".

 

I read the 2020 thread  and after around 500 posts ( including yours. ) no one of those gentlemans writed any single word about cantilever-less heavy tracking and developed distortions issues, no one and no one mentioned any single word about cartridge specs .

You already had and still have noise " problems " with that cartridge, with out mention what a gentleman posted here about those 2 extra wires for the cartridge power supply that goes against the " free " movements on your tonearm, not a good notice and you accepted ( ? ? ? ).

I think that in the last 2-3 years you made a come back to the audio past when you bougth a phono stage tube design and along that you find out that the external SUTs performs better than the one inside the phono stage ( you posted those in Agon threads ). Tubes is an electronic alternative and the worst place to use it is to handled cartridges and specially LOMC ones. In the other side, SUTs are named as " passive " devices and almost every one ( mainly tube lovers. ) says makes less degradation to the cartridge signal vs a couple of active bipolar devices ( really small and " ridiculous " devices. ) but things are that SUTs are far aways to be passive but are really " active " with the cartridge signal because this signal travels a huge number of m. through the transformers, cables and connectors and that signal it’s almost coupled relationship degrading at each mm. the cartridge signal way higher that those couple bipolar devices and not only that because the SUT has limited frequency response at both frequency extremes where your Dartzeel has not. Btw, you have good relationship with Dartzeel designer and can ask him why in the design the designers always are looking for the shortest path for where the audio signal must pass through.

 

Next link speaks of the cartridge importance tracking issue and I know that some audiophiles already read it somewhere and know the issue very well. We don’t need to be a technical oriented audiophile because it’s asy to understand the tracking information overall issue explained there. As me you only need to read carefully/slow. I’m posting the link because @mijostyn and I posted that cartridge tracking abilities is the main cartridge design characterisitc ( I have no less than 15 years posting the same. ) that even with out the link is just " common sense ":

 

http://pspatialaudio.com/analogy.htm

 

""  A rigid cantilever will offer no relief from this inevitable resonance on the tracking ability of the stylus. And tracking is king: an unyielding cantilever could introduce high frequency mistracking with its insiduous ability to damage records without betraying the damage it is doing. "

 

Everything here is posted in good shape, no other kind of attitude/agenda.

 

R.

 

 

Some ''philosophical'' remarks about this '''theme''. 

The general quantification theory looks like this

''all x are Fg&Gx''

If there is one x which does not satisfy conditions F&G the(general)

statement is not true.

Hower why should wahtever object satsfy only two conditios?

We can use as variables ,say,: a,b,c...n  conditions. Aka there are

no limits to one or two.

Think of Popper with his ''critical rationalism''. According to him proving

an theory is not possible but well REFUTATION. His ''grow of knowledge''

get curious consequence: the more theories are refuted the more knowledge

we get???

But what kinds of ''theory'' he has in mind? Well one with one variable.

His own example is:

''all swans are white''

but the one he discovered in Australia which

was ''black'' REFUTED THE THEORY THAT ''all are white''.

This seems to me to be  ''very poor theory''. 

There is also an ''truth theory'' ascribed to Tarski:

''truth by satisfaction'' . That is to say  by satisfaction but of how many

conditions? The ''picture obove'' is misleading in the sense of suggestion

of ONLY TWO: F and G.

I don't  believe that the members in this thread realized what they are

talking about.

 

I agree. 

Dear @lewm  : I just seen/aware of what you posted time before.

 

" Raul, in your own experience, what is the best sounding cartridge? . "

 

I already posted what has a close relationship with your question.

There is no best cartridge at all  because the quality level performance of any cartridge have several playing desired characteristics where you can't diminish any one of them and unfortunatelly no single cartridge model achieves all at the top:

you have to ask your self: the best tracking, the best HF/MF/LF, the best low noise, the best transient response, the best natural color, the best natural agresiveness or brigthness, the best rythm,...etc.

 

And that's why the best cartridges overall sounds alike and between that " sounds alike " we make our choices with the cartridges that are nearer to each one of us targets.

If $$$ is no issue then the best choice is to own 3-4 of those " alike " performers and stay away to married with one cartridge model. You can be sure that those cartridge choices will fulfill your targets.

 

lewm, we are talking of transducers where each one has a similar but " unique/signature " voice exactly as a speaker but obviously and normally we don't own 4 different speakers but 3-4 cartridges do not needs the speaker space to listen it.

R.

 

 

Dear @mglik  : Yes, it's obvious that with a 20cu compliance it has to track very well. Maybe not better " than any cartridge " but at the ends a good tracker.

 

I own and owned several cartridges with different compliance spec and no one high compliance ( this is 20cu and up ) disappointed on that specific issue but certainly are better tracking cartridges but " unfortunatelly " not with the great cartridge motor of your sample.

I need to experience it and compare with the vintage signature Z series.

 

R.

 

BTW-I am also married to myTriplanar SE arm. It was quite involved and difficult ti mount it on my TT. And I would not second guess the Triplanar quality and compatibility.

Don’t know the difference in the Grado Epoch3 tip. Only know that the cart tracks, it is said, better than any cartridge. On the run in/out and between cuts, the silence is deafening. And, as I have said, the SQ is well beyond the Lyra Atlas SL. It is a new, amazing level of realism. I was lead to the Epoch3 by reading about the Decca London Reference. The Grado may be well beyond the Decca. 

@mglik : " putting the stylus down on the run in grove there is dead silence. As well as the groves between cuts. This silence is indicative of the purity of the music content. "

I already posted here about your statement but was till today that I fall in count that one of the main Grado characteristic in its Optimized transmission line cartridge design was to " disappears " the surface noise but not only in the unmodulated grooves but mainly in the modulated grooves and achieve that with out any single compromise/trade-off that could disturb the true MUSIC signal information and yes you can hearing it. It’s part of that high quality level performance you are in experience with your Epoch 3.

 

Again, congratulations for,

R.