re Audio Research Ref3, anyone using with LOMC, like 0.3 output?
I used Ref 3SE with a couple of 0.3mV Koetsu, it sounded amazing. I still preferred a good SUT w/ low gain mode, but its high gain mode alone was competitive for sure.
Below 0.3mV w/ high gain mode, I noticed noise floor creeping up. It also picked up noise from a plasma TV in the next room over (no such problem when using SUT). So below 0.3mV, or near a plasma TV, I’d definitely switch to a SUT for sure.
I listen loud, and I'm metering at my listening levels - I'm sure other folks will want to respond with "it's graveyard quiet with a 0.07mV Ortofon in my system". It's still the best overall stage I've ever heard, but its high gain mode is not quite the quietest I've heard.
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re Audio Research Ref3, anyone using with LOMC, like 0.3 output?
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@Dover thanks for the sota advice. I dread diassembling the turntable. I've done it before when I had my sota star sapphire upgraded to the Nova. I changed out the springs myself back in the 90's, but this time I'll let Sota do it right. I might get the floating platter upgrade at the same time. It will be expensive. So, that's down the road a bit. I just purchased the Kiseki cartridge and Stellar preamp, and my conscience won't let me spend more at present.
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@gyneguy225
Thats a great outcome
On the SOTA you shouldn't need to do a complete upgrade.
The Nova already has the AC motor with double regulated frequency synthesised power supply - this was a massive improvement on the older DC motor.
I prefer the original bearing ( inverted bearing with sapphire thrust pad ) if its in good condition. When the Sota is transported you must use the transit screws to lift the platter off the sapphire thrust pad - most damage is cased by transporting without the transit screws. Secondly make sure the bearing does not run dry.
If the original bearing is good - you could do the springs yourself.
You could get a basic service - new springs, clean and lube the bearing, check all the vacuum system - hoses, gaskets etc - the air pumps should probably get the internal rubber bellows replaced due to age.
Just bring the Nova up to as new condition - its still a great TT.
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I listened to my new PSA Stellar phono, playing my used Kiseki purple heart cartridge last night. It's a keeper and confirmed my suspicion that the Allnic 1201 phono preamp was my problem. The Kiseki cartridge is a real winner and it's obvious why it's sold out and unobtainable on the market new at present. It's smoother on the highs and surface noise is almost unnoticeable. It betters my old Lyra Kleos by a lot. I was pretty much blown away, and will probably stick with my old ET2 arm and Sota Nova table. The Stellar phono plays way above its price point, and I don't regret not spending more on an ARC product. The savings will probably go into an upgrade on the Sota table.
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Typical speaker is 4 to 16 ohms. Any SS amplifier will have an output impedance <<1 ohm. That’s voltage drive, mainly. Tube amps are inherently voltage producers. That’s why they can have problems with four ohm speakers and particularly with speakers that present an impedance below 4 ohms at mid range frequencies or base frequencies..
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I decided to try a PS Audio Stellar phono preamp and decide whether Michael Fremer was right with his glowing review. I can't lose. PSA gave me a $3000 trade in on my Allnic 1201 phono preamp, with $700 applied to the purchase and the rest in my account at PSA. I have 30 days from delivery to decide which sounds better. If the PSA preamp doesn't measure up it goes back. Nothing compares to an in home audition. I consider that a great deal.
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I doubt that a new table or arm, or phono stage is going to fix these deficiencies unless I spend a whole lot of money.
@gyneguy225 I have not heard “Cantata Domino” but I have the other one on both LP and later I got the CD.
I would be listening to those at shops with TTs.
Which is what I did back in the day when I was shopping for gear… going from shop to shop with some LPs in hand.
i suspect that you are correct with the whole lot of money part, so it may be better to not pursue it. Digital can sound great.
Holmz, you could change the predicate of that sentence you quoted to …”constitutes a miniature voltage generator “, and the sentence would be equally correct or incorrect. It’s the impedance at the interface that determines whether you’re in current mode or voltage mode,
@lewm
Yeah - but technically it is a current device. I does not become a voltage device until we apply Ohm’s law and force the current across an impedance.
… and apart from the special case of a LOMC cartridge with very low internal resistance driving a current mode phono input with an even lower input impedance, downstream devices drive a high input impedance, in voltage mode.
I agree… but down at the speaker that is also a current device.
I get how they are voltage controlled, but I always pondered the fact that a dynamic microphone and cart are current devices on the incoming side, and a speaker is a current device on the outgoing side.
I am only saying that it makes me do a chin-scratch.
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Holmz, you could change the predicate of that sentence you quoted to …”constitutes a miniature voltage generator “, and the sentence would be equally correct or incorrect. It’s the impedance at the interface that determines whether you’re in current mode or voltage mode, and apart from the special case of a LOMC cartridge with very low internal resistance driving a current mode phono input with an even lower input impedance, downstream devices drive a high input impedance, in voltage mode.
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I finally got the Kiseki mounted and set up. It sounds pretty nice. I listened to "Cantata Domino" and Jazz at the Pawn shop, both Proprius recordings. I'll listen some more this afternoon, but my comparison to digital streaming is still that with digital, voices and instruments come out of a darkness that analog can't match. Of course the dynamic range of digital is much better. Soundstage and imaging is better with digital as well. But perhaps, analog sounds a bit more real.
I doubt that a new table or arm, or phono stage is going to fix these deficiencies unless I spend a whole lot of money.
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At least one site says;
The magnets + coils assembly constitutes a miniature current generator
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Holmz, it’s actually voltage based amplification from cartridge to speakers, if you exclude the aforementioned low internal resistance, LOMC cartridges. Although even that’s an oversimplification.
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There are many very good tonearms to be had for way less than your quoted cost of the VPI. Possibly even a used Triplanar or Reed. Certainly a used Dynavector, FR, Victor, or Technics, for examples.
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There is no "Best" choice. SME V and many Rega variations are Great Choice for under $35k......
Audionut51
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Having your Nova refurbished for $3k plus a tonearm for around $2500(just throwing a number at it) would be a steal. A new Nova with the same tonearm would be $7.5k. To meet or beat your "renewed" turntable you would have to spend $7k to $$9k. The Origin Live Silver tonearm I put on my Sapphire two years ago was $900. If I ever updated my tonearm the Kuzma 4point9 would be at the top of my list, but I am very happy where I am now.
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Thanks for the VPI info. I read a review of the Kiseki purple heart by Jim Hannon at TAS and he was pretty impressed, comparing it to some Koetsu’s. The ET2 was one of the arms he used in the review. I have the cartridge mounted but haven’t listened yet. It was a tense install as I received no stylus guard with the cartridge. Now, I need to set tracking force, VTA, and azimuth. I’m savoring this stuff, and listening can wait til tomorrow. I wanted a new cartridge but all of the Kiseki’s are sold out. Needless to say I’m stoked about listening tomorrow
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VPI can sound a little clinical, but I have used a Classic 3 Signature for awhile now. The older SOTA Sapphire/Star Sapphire were a bit more melodic. I am thinking about possibly going to an Acoustic Signature model this time, but who knows. By the time I get serious about actually buying a new turntable, things could change. Hope that the Kiseki meets your expectations and the new upgrades improve your table and your listening pleasure. Just spend more time listening now and enjoying your music.
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Re Mijostyn’s advice on purchasing a current driven phono stage: (1) That’s a fine idea if you plan to limit yourself to LOMC cartridges with internal resistance preferably less than 12 to 15 ohms, the lower the better, and (2) my own experience with a BMC MMCI ULN Signature phono stage suggests it is superb but not necessarily better than high end voltage driven phono stages with high gain, for listening to the aforementioned LOMC, low internal R cartridges. Not inferior but also not definitively superior. In a final attempt to be absolutely clear, I don’t hear anything that tells me current drive is going to take over the universe. But it will assume an important place therein.
@lewm agree.
However I do find it compelling that the cartridge, and dynamic microphones, are Maxwell like in that the one generates a current by a magnetic field changing within a coil.
And the speaker is the inverse of that.
So it seems, totally on the kindergarten surface, like it should be current based amplification from one end to the other.
But then Ohm’s law sort of says that we can do it by envisioning it using voltage.
(that is an aside)
My Kiseki purple heart cartridge arrived this afternoon. I hope that it lives up to its reputation. I'll mount it and do some listening tomorrow.
I've been browsing used turntables, and rebuilding my Sota nova for $3000 is looking better. Tonearms are pretty pricey as well. I considered a VPI. I saw a VPI Prime 21 3d gimbaled tonearm with tonearm weight for $3650. It's tempting to go for something new but I'm somewhat attached to my linear tracking arm with an air bearing suspension.
I guess it all depends on how the new cartridge sounds.
Has anyone here some experience with VPI tables?
Cheers,
John
No VPI experience. But if you like your SOTA, then let’s see how the Kiseki works, and decide later-like you mentioned.
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My Kiseki purple heart cartridge arrived this afternoon. I hope that it lives up to its reputation. I'll mount it and do some listening tomorrow.
I've been browsing used turntables, and rebuilding my Sota nova for $3000 is looking better. Tonearms are pretty pricey as well. I considered a VPI. I saw a VPI Prime 21 3d gimbaled tonearm with tonearm weight for $3650. It's tempting to go for something new but I'm somewhat attached to my linear tracking arm with an air bearing suspension.
I guess it all depends on how the new cartridge sounds.
Has anyone here some experience with VPI tables?
Cheers,
John
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Re Mijostyn’s advice on purchasing a current driven phono stage: (1) That’s a fine idea if you plan to limit yourself to LOMC cartridges with internal resistance preferably less than 12 to 15 ohms, the lower the better, and (2) my own experience with a BMC MMCI ULN Signature phono stage suggests it is superb but not necessarily better than high end voltage driven phono stages with high gain, for listening to the aforementioned LOMC, low internal R cartridges. Not inferior but also not definitively superior. In a final attempt to be absolutely clear, I don’t hear anything that tells me current drive is going to take over the universe. But it will assume an important place therein.
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I used an ET2 on a SOTA Star Sapphire until around 2009. Still one of my favorite analog rigs I ever owned or heard. Anyone that had an issue with the ET2, obviously did not have any experience using or setting one up. Over 10 trouble free years for me!
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The ET2 has no gimbles to wear out or loosen up. It is air bearing and that's one of its pluses. I can sling some solder but my eyes are so bad, I couldn't see those tonearm wires to solder them. Melting away the insulation is trouble as well.
My new cartridge arrives in a few days and I'll report back about it. That will determine my next move.
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@gyneguy225 , cartridges are balanced devices! All you have to do to use a balanced phono stage is solder XLRs to your tonearm wires. It would take me about 15 minutes. The only arms you can't do this to in my knowledge are the Rega arms.
The Kuzma is $4,000, the Schroder is $5000 and I am not sure what a current SME is going for. There are many used SME V's now on the used market but I would not buy a used arm. Bearings are too easy to damage and significant bearing damage can be very hard to detect. As an example, If a turntable travels by car ANYWHERE without first removing the arm and placing it in a box where all of it is supported in foam (the original box) the bearings have been damaged.
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Btw, my expectation was the $8K was for both the rebuild ($3K) plus the purchase of a used ARC PH8 ($5K) phono stage. I am not sure that would change @Holmz comments… but that was what I intended to say.
I got it, but it’ll be north of 10k with the cartridge…
I cannot comment on whether the rebuild is needed or is a good idea.
(I ordered it, but it is not in yet.)
However my TT sounds pretty good still, with just a cart and new head shell. And I am not not sure one needs a high $ phono stage unless a LOMC is in the picture.
so as he already has a cart to listen to, then we should await the conclusions.
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Btw, my expectation was the $8K was for both the rebuild ($3K) plus the purchase of a used ARC PH8 ($5K) phono stage. I am not sure that would change @Holmz comments… but that was what I intended to say.
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I don’t think it will cost you a fortune. I would do the table upgrades. Then see where you are… a used Audio Research PH8 would really upgrade your analog end. I would imagine that would be around $8K. Then if it isn’t there a cartridge for $3K.
I sprung for the TT rebuild.
But I am not sure I would spend 8k$ on a phono stage without figuring out if the arm is a keeper or not.
And realistically just a new head shell and MM cart totally transformed many of the aspects of what was wrong with the system… and that was <1k$.
I think listening and then going from there is a wise move to ease into it.
But then again I looked at my age and at the calendar and thought, I best enjoy this stuff now.
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I don’t think it will cost you a fortune. I would do the table upgrades. Then see where you are… a used Audio Research PH8 would really upgrade your analog end. I would imagine that would be around $8K. Then if it isn’t there a cartridge for $3K.
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Let me listen to the new cartridge and maybe I can answer your question.
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What table do you own?
@gyneguy225
Hi John,
it is a SOTA Sapphire. I spent months looking and listening and the receipt says 8/8/84.
There is no dishonour is not rushing into it.
And the old setup was pretty nice, so the extra $ may not translate into a night-n-day difference.
Personally I would keep Sutherland on the table of consideration, a friend had an Origin Live arm… for a while.
What do you not like about the sound compared to your digital side?
Knowing that could help.
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That's a pretty exotic gizmo. Only accepts a balanced phono signal? Probably not for me.
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+1
Channel D Lino C 3.3
The basic unit is about $3500.
Rated A+ Stereophile Recommended Components along with $56K Boulder and $90K CH Precision.
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@mijostyn
Good information! I'm considering the Sutherland Little Loco. ($3300 vs $11000 for the ARCRef3.) The Kiseki will match up well with the Sutherland. It's low output, MC, and has an internal impedance of 6 ohms. It starts to add up fast when I combine the Sutherland for $3300, $3000 to upgrade the Sota, and a new tonearm for thousands more. I'm not sure of the price of the tonearms like the Schroder, Kuzma,or the SME, but certainly not chicken feed I suppose.😉
I love my lp's but not THAT much!
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@gyneguy225 , First off, good digital is always going to sound better than even the finest analog. My mistake. I should have said," is always going to be more accurate." Personally, I am into records because I have thousands of them collected over 64 years, it is a tradition I instinctively like because it is burned into me and it is more of a challenge than digital.
I suggest to people that if they do not already have a large record collection they should avoid analog and spend the money on music.
Your Nova is an excellent turntable and can easily be updated to modern spec. You will have to spend serious money to do better and the improvement would be marginal, not something everyone would notice. You have an excellent cartridge. As long as it is in good shape there is no reason to change. Tonearms are very important. The ET 2 is a terrible arm for a number of reasons and should be avoided at all cost. The Sota tables are limited to a small group of 9"-10" arms. The Triplanar will not fit without serious modification. The three great arms that I know from experience will fit are the Kuzma 4 Point 9, the Schroder CB and the SME V. The Origin Live arms will fit but I hear a lot of complaints about their service. Some of the Reed arms might fit but I am not entirely sure. I have a relatively new Sota Cosmos Vacuum and I chose the Schroder CB because I sincerely thought it was the best arm for this type of turntable and over the 9 months or so I have had it nothing has dissuaded me from that opinion. The only other arm I would really like to own is the Schroder LT but it will not fit on a Sota and I am not ready to buy another turntable.
The only other thing I would like to see in your system would be a current mode phono stage like the Sutherland Loco or Little Loco, the BMC MCCI or the Channel D Seta L or Lino C. I own a Seta L Plus which I am enjoying very much. I am also using digital RIAA correction. You need a flat phono stage output for that which al the Channel D phono stages have. Your Lyra will work beautifully with one of these stages. You will notice more gain, less noise and more accurate bass.
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@Holmz
What table do you own?
-John
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I spoke to Donna today, and she still recommends the Origin live tonearm.
I found out that there are a number of upgrades for my 30 year old SOTA for about $3000 total, but I'll still have a 30yo turntable. I'm stepping back a bit, and considering that it will cost me a fortune to get the analog system to sound anywhere near as good as my digital. So, I'll see how it sounds with the Kiseki cartridge, and decide whether to go forward from there or give up.
Maybe hold off for a bit.
Mine is a 38 yr old TT… well 38 years ago a month ago.
I got the full kit from Donna, and a workmate and I will do some measurements after I install the gear.
I’m intending to write up how it works.
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I spoke to Donna today, and she still recommends the Origin live tonearm.
I found out that there are a number of upgrades for my 30 year old SOTA for about $3000 total, but I'll still have a 30yo turntable. I'm stepping back a bit, and considering that it will cost me a fortune to get the analog system to sound anywhere near as good as my digital. So, I'll see how it sounds with the Kiseki cartridge, and decide whether to go forward from there or give up.
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I bought a refurbished SOTA Saphire two years ago from SOTA. I had it set up with an Origin Live Silver tonearm and an Ortofon 2M Red(as a placeholder)
Donna told me as I was loading it up that my setup could handle any cartridge up to $3k. A few weeks later I swapped out the 2M Red for a SoundSmith The Voice
I am a very happy camper.
So my recommendation would be an Origin Live tonearm. SOTA carries Origin Live and Kuzma tonearms. Would recommend discussing which one Donna recommends for your table.
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I agree with others on their adulations of the ARC Ref 3/3SE phono stage (I have a 3SE). It will ascend you above the fray of the ~3K phono stages. It was a big difference when I upgraded from $3K stages to this next level. Also my VAC Renaissance SE phono is above the fray, just a different voicing than the ARC and a bit more fidgety with tube rolling :)
I also prefer using a quality outboard SUT, even with the 3SE. But it’s absolutely not necessary, and very specific to your cartridge choice.
A SOTA Nova with a great vintage arm (ET2, FR64fx, etc) and MC cartridge (your choice - I’ve successfully used many) will absolutely scale brilliantly with a top class phono stage. I know because I’ve tried that. It’s uncomfortably close to my Clearaudio Master Innovation lol.
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I'm leaning toward the ARCRef3 phono. It may be expensive but apparently it's the best in the US and holds its value. It's a good mate for my ARC REF6 preamp.
For a while, I thought that vinyl was fading, but it seems to be making a comeback.
Audio is my hobby. So, I guess it's ok to spend some money on it. I don't drive fast expensive cars. What's a retired 71 yo to do?
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@gyneguy225 Have fun with the Kiseki! For Balanced out ( and in ) phono be aware of the Audiospecials Phonolab . Not a tube unit tho...
I am their dealer so will refrain from subjective commentary. I do have a gently used demo unit available.
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@ghdprentice
I believe that the PH2 gain is 42dB, but it seems like it sounds pretty good.
Just it does not seem like enough gain for many newer MC carts.
Maybe I should have stuck with it?
(But I can always use it in the shed if I get another TT.)
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If I remember correctly the loading on the PH2 was done inside by soldering resistors. I got Vishay resistors and set for my cartridge. But then the ARC PH2 was released in 1993. Nearly 30 years ago. The advances in phono stages has been jaw dropping since then.
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You guys are pretty eager to spend my funds.😁 …
I had an ifi phono stage on my list for a while.
Never got a listen to it, but the reviews were good and the price was low.
In the end, I ended up spending a bit more… but at that end it seemed like a consideration. The Sutherland units were also on my list a bit higher up.
I was replacing an ARC PH2… which was really pretty good in terms on MM with no loading options.
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You guys are pretty eager to spend my funds.😁 I'm listening to the Keseki cartridge for a while before I decide what to do next.
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+1 on the Audio Research 3… I love mine. Before that: ARC PH8, ARC PH3SE, PH3, PH2SE, and PH2.
Audio Research makes incredible phono stages… well, and Preamps… well and amps… there DACs are amazing as well.
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I would say go the ARC Ref 3. It's an end game phonostage - upgradeable to the SE if desired. I went through a few phonostages before getting to the Ref 2SE. It adds a tubey flavor to my ss amp, in my pursuit, I've found that the best sound is when coupled with a good SUT.
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Just bought a second hand Kiseki Purple Heart cartridge. The phono preamp is next on my list.
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I think my purchase of the Allnic 1201 was an impulse buy, and I would be quick to sell that item before anything else in the chain. I'm considering the Parasound Halo JC3+ which was designed by John Curl who designed the Vendetta phono preamp many years ago. The balanced outputs are essential as my analog rig is about 20ft from my preamp. Right now I convert the output of the Allnic from RCA to balanced with an ARC BL1. -What a pain in the butt!
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Btw one of my friends runs a Hana ML into an Allnic 1201. He found better results using an outboard SUT.
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Or do you mainly do MC and prefer not to opine?
I do MC most of the time. The OP was leaning towards a Hana and keeping his Allinic 1201 so clearly not in the mindset to spend a lot on either cart or phono. So in that case a best in class MM might make more sense. Not saying they are better overall.
As you know I am in the trade and sell MC carts but they more costly than a Hana... ;)
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