with 30-50 year old RTR decks there is such a wide variance of condition it is very challenging to be able to compare and draw any conclusive conclusions. and further you need to separate transport and tape handling performance from heads and output electronics. heads and output electronics can and typically these days are upgraded or modified to better the original limitations.
the UHA-Tascam has the output electronics and head part very up to date and refined. yet while it’s transport is good, and certainly optimized, it’s ultimately limited by it’s heritage from ultimate master recorder level transport. it can’t do 1/2" or 30ips.
i believe that the UHA-Tascam is the best plug and play current choice for tape decks. however; any shootout would be likely won by a master recorder like the A-820 or ATR-102 fully optimized by the right heads and output electronics. transport performance would push it farther. and if you go 1/2" then it would not be close.
i’ve heard a hot rodded ATR-102 with optimized heads and ATR Services Aria output electronics on 1/2" that was fantastic. don’t think that the UHA-Tascam gets into that league. but when you consider the value of that particular ATR deck likely exceeds $40k the UHA looks like a bargain even at top spec. |
I have heard Studer C37, heard
Studer
820, never heard Ampex or ATR.
It was on different occasions , with different gear so it is hard to compare.
But by far the biggest impression made on me UHA-Tascam phase 11. No other R2R have even come close to this shattering bass, dynamics, color micro-details. Curious if anybody had a chance to compare Ampex, ATR, STuder to UHA-Tascam on the some gear. I'm talking about honest R2R shootout. |
ALRIGHT! What mics, pres, and mixer are you using for your location gigs?
Best regards,
Sam
Sam,
NP, I use a pair of 414xls or C-12s direct into a pair of 737 preamps.if digital then into rosetta 200, if analog straight into analog inputs on tape deck
johnss
|
Atmasphere, since you have some very good R2R's have you ever tried to
contact a major orchestra like say the Cleveland Orchestra, one of the
worlds greatest to capture them on tape? I am sure the records would
sell as audiophiles know who the Cleveland Orchestra is all over the
world. They have a contract :) Studer made the best solid state stuff IME. |
Probably the best open reel deck ever built was custom made by an American, forgot his name. One unit only, I think. Pink Floyd's Gilmore said that compared to that machine any stock Studer sounded like a cassette deck.
But, I guess 2" Studer 820 should be exceedingly good to say the least. |
Albert Porter has the hots for a Studer 820. Another associate uses vintage Ampex decks.
|
|
wow, that would do the job, thats for sure. If I could only come up with 30K, I could start my own business.lol |
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Atmasphere, since you have some very good R2R's have you ever tried to contact a major orchestra like say the Cleveland Orchestra, one of the worlds greatest to capture them on tape? I am sure the records would sell as audiophiles know who the Cleveland Orchestra is all over the world. |
My Teac A 6300 (I thought) was the best sounding R2R I'd heard until I got my Tandberg TD20 SE - by far the best sounding reel to reel I've ever had or heard over Tascam, Teac, Sony, Revox, Realistic, Akai I think I've had them all at some point, at least in the Mid-Fi non professional class however running it through my Krell KRC-3 Preamp, Krell KSA 250 into the Thiel CS5i's has a lot to do with it but as a source the Tandberg is up there with my Meridian CD player and Linn / Dynavector and one of the best sources in it's own way - maybe a better question is what is the best sounding reel to reel you've heard and list your associated equipment used with the unit?
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I remember levinson building maybe modifying is more accurate a half track 1/4 inch tape deck back in late 79 or 80, but can't remember what is was based on. I remember trying to find one to listen too. No one had one.
Can't for the life of me remember what it was based on? ReVox or maybe TEAC? I have the brochure somewhere.
|
Mark Levinison’s John Curl Modified Studer
30 inches per sec speed
2 inch, two track tape
Huge stand!
Will never be beat!
Heard it play back 2nd generation Levinson Jazz tapes.
No better sound IMO!
|
Wonderful old post and yet not one of you mentioned Telefuken! They made incredible studio machines, with excellent build quality that ran at 30ips.
N. |
Transaudio,
my studio at home producing the " Bavarian Tapes"
best @ fun only |
Hi Brad,
I didn't know you repped GML...I'll have to give you a call within the next few months :-)
Regards,
Sam
|
Thuchan
VERY nice photo and machine. What studio?
Brad |
LOL :-)
Oh, yes!!
Hehe (channeling Michael Jackson)...
Sam
|
Sam, here it is, hope you like my choice:
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-6ZG7zbaj-VDbPnGDmMPmn3JU4W64WoH6aKPcEXA3ds?feat=directlink
best @ fun only |
Some really choice gear, above :-)
Eckart, do you have some 1/2", half-track analog reels??
Looking forward to the pictures!
Vbr,
Sam
|
My new machine has arrived today, hopefully you regard it as appropriate. I was happy that it matched the car's space - but no more milimeters left. I needed help to bring it into my room and it got dark very early at my place So tomorrow I will shoot a picture and post it here.
best @ fun only |
I have several Scully's. Great sounding deck, Usermanual. Good enough that Hendrix used them at Electric Ladyland. :) |
My father had a Scully. It was once consider "the best". |
some impression from RMAF 2011:
Tape Decks
This was more than a bit surprising. I've always known that a good deck crushes the sound of vinyl providing you have source tapes that are fairly close to the masters. I was amazed to see so many top shelf decks in so many rooms at the show. Best part was, everybody was using them. I saw everything from studio decks to a little portable Stellavox 3 1/2" deck that will blow your mind. Good sounding open reel decks aren't exactly inexpensive, neither are the source tapes, but boy does it sound good. One of these days I'll get back into this. Like vinyl, I've kept all of my open reel tapes. |
Joenies,
Do you mean the big Nagra, the one Bottlehead is using too?
Best @ Fun Only |
In my opinion it would be the ones that Professor Keith Johnson uses at Reference Recordings.
Joe Nies |
Thanks, Eckart!
I'll send you some images of the Esoteric P-0s manual...it's in Japanese :-)
-Sam
|
Sam,
I am using the Studer A779 which is the smallest Pro-Unit they had.
you may use three unit inputs (tapes or turntables / or mikes).
If you need more info on that the image I will post in one week will also contain the Mixing Solution.
best @ fun only |
Eckart, Neumanns, especially the tube-mikes are great for recording. I also have good experiences with the Studer mixers, if they are checked and in a good condition.
Recording on Tapes is wonderful, even at home! Very cool...I want to do this, too :-) Which Studer mixer are you using and how is it configured? Thanks, Sam |
The week after next week my new machine will be finished. I had to build a special stand etc. I will then definitely post an image here. Maybe someone has seen that kind of unit somewhere before...
best @ fun only |
Neumanns, especially the tube-mikes are great for recording. I also have good experiences with the Studer mixers, if they are checked and in a good condition.
Recording on Tapes is wonderful, even at home!
best @ fun only |
Neumann U-67's...Mmmm...good :-)
Vbr,
Sam
|
Acknowledged and agreed, Ralph!
That's why I'm looking for a Nagra IV-S ;-)
Very best regards,
Sam
|
Sam, the best mixer for on-location is none at all if you can get away with it!
I use Neumann U-67s. They have their own faults but those are far outweighed by their benefits :) |
Johnss, I still do some live to 2 track work, mostly hi rez digital, but sometimes still lug along a hi speed analog half track. ALRIGHT! What mics, pres, and mixer are you using for your location gigs? Best regards, Sam |
Hahahaha, Eckart!!
Good one ;-)
-Sam
|
Atmasphere, is correct. the mastering machines benefit greatly from bypass caps and general parts upgrades. Have donr quite a few myself.
What is not mentioned is the large leap in head technology that occurred at the peak of the analog mastering days. take a 1950s or 1960s vintage ampex 300 or tube magnecord, and slap in a set of the better nortronics heads or JRF headds, and those machines take a giant leap in sonics.
I still do some live to 2 track work, mostly hi rez digital, but sometimes still lug along a hi speed analog half track.
best
best |
Sam, I just saw this funny dialog. You may like it...
Hello everyone
I just bought an A820 and i try to figure out how calibrate it us i am new in tape.
Does auto alignement means that i don't have to use MRL?
Can anybody discribe me the alignement procedure?
I've downloaded the manual but i don't want to make something that will hurt the machine.
Thanks in advance
Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:45 am
------------------
yeeeaaaaahhhhhhhh..........
everything you're saying is all wrong. i think you may have already damaged this machine. you'll need to crate it up and have it shipped to me right away. i'll have a look and see what i can do. it will take some years, though.
man, you're lucky i saw this.
Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:31 am
-------------------
That is so kind of you but it only solves half of my problems as i have two of them
Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:19 am
best @ fun only |
Eckart,
It's tough to remain cool around so much HOT gear ;-)
Certainly, central A/C plays a vital role in keeping me stable, haha.
Vbr,
Sam
|
Transaudio is correct; the Crown was originally designed to be able to survive a fall off of a donkey. For real.
The weakness in them is the electronics. Seems to me there was an original version that was tube, but I have never seen one... anyway, the transistor units have a lot of the failings that transistors often have IMO. I may still have some LPs that Robert Fulton (founder of the modern high end cable industry) recorded using his 'modified' Crown; those recordings are excellent, although musically they are typical audiophile, which is to say ABYSMAL :)
There has been speculation locally about whether or not Fulton really did modify his machines. After he died (rather suddenly) a friend of mine obtained one of them from his estate and it was entirely stock!
So other than my comment about transistor vs tubes... perhaps my comments about the electronics might be taken with a grain of salt (although if you find one cheap I would not turn it down, and also I would expect to replace every electrolytic capacitor in sight in the electronics). I've usually stayed away from them mostly because they seem more consumer than pro to me (same for the Revox...) |
I don't think it is difficult to get into the Tape Business again. You are able to buy excellent master dubs on the market (e.g. Tape Project). If you have some friends sharing this specific adventure you might be able to make copies for your personal use and also exchange ideas about new sources (search under The Audio Archive).
Don't start with a feeling of limitation, regard it as an exclusive window in your audiophile chain. Whenever you are listening to well recorded tapes you migh agree that this is setting the standard in your system. Also for comparing to vinyl or certain cartrigdes. And don't forget the haptic feeling when you are operating a tape machine. We could ask Mike, Albert or Sam if they stay cool when being in contact with their R2Rs...
best @ fun only
|
I don't think Crown was into audiophile level quality. I repped them from 1980 to 1990 or so. The family was into missionary work, and Crown recorders were designed to be simple, repairable and operable in difficult environments. They used to set up broadcast facilities all over the world (and also built transmitters they sold mostly direct).
Brad
|
Wow, that's one hell of a story, Lewm!
I'm glad I had the opportunity to enjoy it, vicariously :-)
Best,
Sam
|
Ralp (Atma Sphere) -- if you catch my posts and Lew's comments, we would appreciate it if you would weigh in on the quality (sonics and build) of the Crown and Tandberg R2R machines back in the 70s. As I recall, they were SOTA, but mostly for the consumer market. I think Crown may have served the pro market too, but I don't have any experience with that application.
How would rehabbed old Crown and Tandberg machines compare to some of the SOTA gear listed above? |
I don't know how a fully tweaked and top of the line Crown would compare to the Studers, Ampexes, MCIs, etc, that have come up in this discussion. But I do think that Ralph would have one if he thought it competed sonically with those big boys.
Thuchan, Several years transpired between the day I sat aghast listening to the horrid first generation Sony CD player that had replaced all those Crown tape decks and the day I asked my boss about the fate of his tapes. By then I was ready to jump on them myself, if he by some luck had stored them away. I forgot to say also that when I heard the Crown cum first-generation tapes, he was using Bose 901 speakers driven by a huge McIntosh amp. When later I heard the Sony CDP, he had also truly upgraded to giant Dunleavy's. So he had much better speakers in the latter instance, yet there was no comparison in sound quality to what I had heard earlier from the very lowly Bose speakers. The Dunleavy's enabled one all the better to appreciate the shortcomings of CD in those days.
He was a renowned scientist and a true music lover, an aficionado and patron of all local concerts, a man who entertained some of the great artists in his home, including conductors and soloists who might be performing at the Kennedy Center in DC. Sometimes they played for him. (All the names escape me now.) Yet he could not hear how terrible the Sony was and could not therefore appreciate his grievous error. He often made fun of me (in a nice way) for continuing to listen to vinyl. In turn, I could never bring myself to tell him what I really thought about his ultimate choice in source material. |
Lew, I agree 100% with you. Anything built by Crown back in the 70s would last forever. I still have two Crown amps that refuse to die: I gave the DC300A to my son; I keep the D150A Series II as a back up. Both amps went to the factory for a check up -- just a couple of caps and resisters were replaced and both amps perform at original factory spec, which is pretty impressive in its own right.
For nastalgia's sake, I would love to pick up an old Crowm R2R that's still in great shape, but to what end?? I am not interested in making tape back-ups of music and I'm not even sure where I could pick up pre-recorded tapes. But it was a different time back then -- much slower than what's going on today. And Crown was the standard bearer. |
Dear Lewm,
this is a true story I am sure. Many people got rid of their vinyl collection too. And today? Some really lucky ones still have a collection, others are building it up cause there is so much vinyl out there, and in Jazz and Classics records are usually in a good condition.
In tapes we have a few sources getting second or third master dubs, even of modern Rock and Jazz productions. Nevertheless I am still waiting for a guy like your former boss reading these lines considering to make himself a little lighter...
best @ fun only |
Bifwynne, As you may or may not know, the better Crown tape recorders have interchangeable heads, can be modified therefore to use half-inch tapes. At one time, Crown was considered to be right up there with anything else made for home use and I think they were used in studios as well. And they are built "like a tank". My old and sadly departed boss used to have four, yes FOUR, Crown tape decks in his audio system, set side by side by side by side in his listening room. Then he had a spare bedroom entirely devoted to storage of first-generation master tapes he collected, floor to ceiling shelves with free-standing shelves in the middle of the room as well, all first generation. The sound was awesome. But when digital came along, some salesman sold him a bill of goods, and he replaced all that stuff with a Sony CD player, which sounded awful. Years later I asked him what had become of his tape collection; he had given it away!!!! |
Bifwynne,
I have no experience with the Crowns. Tandbergs you find on ebay or here on Audiogon. I would recommend going for a 1/2" if you looking for quality recording & playback.
best @ fun only |
Atmasphere,
you are describing deep experiences with R2Rs. I share your assessments you made so far and it shows that looking on master tape machines needs a more detailed approach and comes to different results than the repair facility which Mike mentioned believes.
And of course it us all about recording quality and the transistor/tube output of the mastering deck. One may ask if we do need the technical options of a big studio machine but when you operate one of the giants, let's say the A820, it is a lot of fun and a very nice haptic feeling you have.
This is also part of the story. You have this with the C37 as well whenever the transport mechanism is not as soft as with the A820 and maybe the Ampex. |
