What happens when the stylus tip wears out on a $12,000 cartridge?

In relation to a Cart's voicing the contributing materials that distinguish the sound are usually related to materials selected for use and the structure.

Wire Type, Winding Ratio, Generator Material, Body Material are pretty much to remain as part of a full refurbish, with the most likely to be exchanged being the Coil Wire, if the wire has  a coil that has been damaged beyond repair.

Coil Wire will impact on the voicing and most likely be a noticeable change to end sound.

Sacrificial Parts in the assembly can have a impact on the sound, with my experiences being that the Styli only as a change will be the one least attributed to making changes to the sound being produced.

My experiences have left myself with the thought, that it is the overall assembly that has to be considered to explain why very closely related Cart' Models have a different voicing. 

The Styli > Cantilever > Armature > Damping and Tensioning Tie Wire are the items responsible for the voicing. If this assembly is attached to different Body Material, or Generator Material, further voicing options are able to be produced.

A Styli is pretty much the same material, today Diamond is usually used, but will be found with variation in the form produced.

A Cantilever will be found as a variety of materials ranging from Gem Stones through to a Organic Material. These as a part, depending on material selected will change the voicing. I fail to see how a equivalent part exchange such as Boron for Boron, even if part with Styli were differing weights such as a 0.17mg be replaced by a 0.25mg equivalent part, I doubt the average listener will detect any difference.

The Armature will be quite generic in type, it is a part of the damping system but will be found in different metals, usually magnetic, partially magnetic or non-magnetic. each as a selection will be used as a means to improve on magnetic interference. It will be difficult to suggest if a difference in a material or materials magnetic property will be audible to a typical listener. I would lean toward a change of this item only, to one of a equivalent type, will be difficult to detect as an audible difference.

The Damper Material is where endless research has been carried out and will most likely continue to be carried out, as miniaturisation in general demands the technologies are available to improve designs.

The Damper materials have evolved and are today able to be found as compounds such as:  Silicone, Fluorosilicone, Bromobutyl, Fluoroelastomer, Bromobutyl/EPDM, Nitrile, EPDM. 

Above materials are to be found with a wide range of Shore 00 and Dyne measurements, a Manufacturer will be secretive of materials used and measurements for such material.

It can be very easy for an exchange part of one of these Damper Parts, which is classed as an equivalent part, to be quite influential on the sound being produced. Reason being not one manufacturer is going to make known the selected properties for their damper material used in the assembly, the likelihood being that Damper parts not direct from the Manufacturer will have a different Dyne and possibly a difference to the Shore 00.

In certain levels of a Cart', the Tie Wire is usually selected for the voicing as well. The wires suitable for use are normally a very fine steel wire, which can be seen referred to as Piano Wire.  As this is used for voicing it is hard for the layman to know if it is a bespoke tensioning of a Damper or a certain wire type that is responsible for the Cart's voicing.

The wire is usually anchored to a Pole using different methods to produce the anchoring, some are clamped and some are adhered. The wire also has the potential to transfer energy, maybe the anchoring has an impact on the voicing?   . It is again difficult to say whether a change of tie wire material will be detected by a typical listener, but the likelihood of there being a change to the tensioning and its effect on the Damper, this will most likely be detectable. The tensioning change resulting in the optimising of the Dampers function, might be the reason why so many who have a Cart' returned are immediately impressed. 

The suggestion is that an individual part swapped out apart from coil wire, 'will not' create a sound that is noticeably different. 

If multiple parts were no longer seen to be optimal and selected to be swapped out, then yes, 'a difference in voicing will be created', but how detectable it is as a change to the remembered voicing, will be probably be down to the time spent without the Cart' in use.     

There are individuals with real adeptness in these matters, of which a limited number are willing to make this knowledge available to those who share in the interest, it does not take too much searching to see what is going on under the hood of the Cart's housing.

There are also places where one can go to have a Public Dialogue on the subject, as well as the option of conversing directly with a Third Party Service as the source of answers to questions.

The idea can quickly grow for the developing of such skills being witnessed, which for a few can be very appealing, I know an individual now developing their own skills and already have donor models and FGS tipped Cantilevers at the ready.

. Having a time served technician, using their experience to treat a Cart' with their own developed skills, where getting the Cart' back in the game, functioning  at a very high level of performance is also a real treat to have for oneself.

Another 1000-2000 hours of listening bliss along with $0000''s saved is to be had with such an approach.       

Re-tipping save you 60 hours of break in.  But on the 5th re-tip or five years you would benefit from a total rebuild or exchange.  The suspension gets mushy, less compliant over time and use bring the cartridge out of spec and damage to your beloved LP.

@pgaulke60 - just an aside, most retippers offer different cantilever options, such as ruby or others. Personally, I would ask them what they think works best. In my case, both retippers suggested just a retip on the original cantilever and they came out great. They know what works and the last thing they want is for you to get the cartridge back and complain you don’t like it. Plus, I would think you have the best shot at the original sound with leaving the cantilever, assuming it isn’t damaged, and replacing the tip with one of similar profile. 

What happens, when a $12000 cartridge wears out? You end up with thousands of hours of great listening and a $1200 cartridge that should be re tipped and enjoyed for thousands more hours.

So what does the company who made the cartridge have to say about refurbishing the stylus?

Truth is none of us “knows” for sure when a stylus is worn enough to need replacement, assuming a gradual decline and not a catastrophic failure as occurs when the stylus comes unglued from the cantilever, unless one owns a suitable microscope and is skilled at examining styli. You learn to live with that, or not.

@chayro Thanks for the response.  I have two turntables, in different rooms, with the same cartridge.  I think I will call these outfits and ask about retipping for my specific cartridge.  Would really like to know if it is worn.  Then, if the one I send in is good, or gets retipped I can put it on the table I use daily, and repeat the process.  Thanks

@pgaulke60 - for me, after a few years, the cartridge just starts sounding a little ratty, as if the stylus is dirty, or mistracking. You can always just send it to a retipper for an inspection and, at least in the case with VAS or Soundsmith, I think they will be honest about it. If you don’t feel you trust them, that’s another story. 

I still wonder how you know your cartridge needs to have the stylus tip replaced? Other than the purchase of a $1200 microscope, how do you know. I don’t track the hours played. Plus, if a stylus starts to degrade, it is a gradual process and I would never know how the sound changed over that lengthy degradation process.

How do you all know when the stylus needs replacement?

When one purchases a 10K cartridge they are stepping out on the ledge. No way around it. If you're actually looking and this is more than conjecture the solution put forth by tunes409 sounds pretty good. Phasemation is a very solid brand IMO.

@scott22 - good question. I don’t think there is anyone who would not prefer a factory-rebuilt cartridge to a retip, but as stated above, it’s not always possible, as the maker is  no longer around, as in the case of Transfiguration.  All I can say is this- I cannot recall reading one post here in 10 years where someone has had a cartridge worked on by Soundsmith or VAS that they were not delighted with.  I did have a problem with the suspension after a Soundsmith repair and they fixed it asap.  As far as the same exact sound?  I don’t think anyone will go in record as saying the sound was exactly the same.  Musical memory is too short to make an exact comparison.  But from what I can see, the crusty, picky audiophiles here are invariably satisfied with the cartridges when they get them back.

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@pindac 

Atlas does exactly that. They have a $450 service fee which covers cleaning, stylus check and tune up. The problem is you lose your cartridge for 6 months.

@mulveling 

Excellent answer. I have a feeling that in some instances the owner is give a "new" cartridge at about 1/2 price. The old cartridge is sent back, stripped and rebuilt given a new serial number and sold as new. I have no problem with this recycling as all the important parts the wear are new. Elusive disc offers trade ins for new cartridges. Instead of getting the same cartridge back you get a different one. This is a bit more expensive costing about 75% instead of 50%.  Soundsmith is easily the most reasonable offering rebuilds for about 10%.

Before you buy it, check with Steve Leung at VAS, ask him if he can re-tip and/or rebuild suspension/cantilever/tip. Worse than wear would be bending or snapping the cantilever.

I sometimes buy broken cartridges that I know he can rebuild. I ask him first, he tells me which ones are bad choices to work on.

Very educational and very easy to put the cart before the horse during repair. Will there be any return policy if you do not like the sound the repair makes? It would be interesting to hear if retipping or other repairs restore the sound you were willing to initially pay. It seems to me without an audition of the repair or happy with the sound guarantee you are buying a pig in a poke.

@jmarini2 

Soundsmith re-tip service in New-Jersey. All done safely online with UPS shipping. Did it once on a zephyr and twice on a Lyra Kleos once cartridges reach 1,000 hours. The purists will balk at that. A perfectly acceptable solution to me with absolutely no discernible sound difference from the original cartridges. Under $400 per re-tip.

Types are Phasemation and Analog Relax!!

The two likes of cartridges are Phasemation and Analog Relax!!

There is a New Purchase Price $10000 dollar Cart’ not too long owned, with very little usage hours recently put up for sale in the US.

The Cart’ is a documented case within this forum, for having developed a fault that was in place way way before a Tip Wear Concern could have arose.

The above reinforces one absolute! Cart’s are Fragile !!!

The environment the Cart’ is typically used in is very hostile to the intricacy of the Cart’s design, additionally, the user interface adds to the risks associated to the Cart’s fragility.

Combine the two impactions on the Cart’ as stated above, and it is pretty much a given that by the time the Styli is worn and needing a assessment for replacement, the Cart’ is already far removed from the New Purchase Supplied Condition and is one that is with a long term usage that has not been with a condition that is closely resembling a optimised functioning Cart’.

My suggestion to those that care to have a optimised functioning Cart’ in use that is now outside of a Warranty Period. Is to create a relationship with a Third Party Service, and have the service periodically Thoroughly Clean the Cart’ and maybe inform there is a need to carry out Tensioning to the Tie wire, to return to a optimised the damping function.

A treatment such as this, carried out a few times prior to the Cart’ being completely overhauled after a period of long term usage and Styli deterioration, is not too much of an inconvenience or added cost to keep the replays as accurate as originally intended, and additional $400-$600 might get one beyond the 2000 hour styli life is their Vinyl in use is thoroughly clean.

At the time of Complete Overhaul, the owner can decide to return to the Manufacturer or continue with the Third Party Service to continue with their very valuable maintenance.

Note: In many cases, a Cart’ returned to a Manufacturer will be treated with parts that have equivalent properties to the ones used in the original returned model, hence meaning the Cart’ will not be supplied as a return, meeting the exactness of the original purchase !!

There is a very strong possibility the replacement parts selected by a Third Party Service will have equivalent properties to the ones being selected to be used by the original manufacturer, or even be an improvement in their extrinsic properties as the overall assembly?

The choice is quite straight forward, one can Pay a High Price for a returned Cart’ from a Manufacturer, that is the Manufacturers 'latest version' for this Cart’. The likelihood is that the Cart’ will not be an identical model of the Cart’ sent in.

Alternatively, one can pay much fairer monies for a Cart’ sent in to a Third Party Service. With the Knowing the Cart’ will be overhauled by a very skilled technician, with the likelihood being non-original Parts are to be used. With the end product being as valuable in use as any Cart’ version on offer from the alternative option.

@tunes409 so what are the cartridge lines?

I am the US agent for two very high end cartridge line we rebuild them including suspension  cantilever and stylus  for a modest dollars 

Great question, great answer!  It's these types of interactions that keep me coming back to forums!

Thank you for that mulveling.  Very interesting.  I asked because when Stereophile magazine reviews a cartridge they never really provide any "afterlife" info regarding what restoration services a manufacturer may or may not offer.

It varies by manufacturer. Several offer a "full rebuild" for ~ 50% of MSRP, whereby you receive (after several weeks) a brand new cartridge in the old body. E.g. Koetsu, Ortofon. I like this option, but manufacturers dependent on a single ageing master (like Koetsu) mean it cannot be counted on for the long run (the Koetsu master passed away last year - RIP Fumihiko). I used the Koetsu option a few times; they really are good as new. Note MSRP can be relative to the distributor network you send it into! Ortofon handles these cases direct, which is much better IMO. If you can afford $12K one time, you can afford a $6K refresh every few years (don't use it for background music lol).

Some offer only "trade in" value to a new cartridge which is often paltry (e.g. 25%). I do not like these options. Benz Micro offered generous trade in allowances in the 2000s, but took those away when they couldn’t keep up with demand.

And then you always have the 3rd party retip / rebuild option. Retip is only possible when the coils, cantilever, and suspension are still intact. Both options here usually cost FAR less than the above options. None of the cartridge manufacturers make their own styli (and very few their own cantilevers), so it is often possible to retain much of the original design intention this way.