What happens when the stylus tip wears out on a $12,000 cartridge?

@daveyf It is such outlooks and intentions that make us all individuals, and I have no issues with anybody that makes inroads to having recorded source material close to them that is of exceptional quality as a production.

All evaluations of ancillaries for replaying vinyl that I take part in are using Vinyl pressings from the Brands known for making these high quality pressings available, along with what the HiFi Group earmarked as High Quality pressings.

For me I've made Old Bones with a large collection of Vinyl and well will be Wed to it to the end, "For better or Worse" 😎. 

In relation to a Cart's voicing the contributing materials that distinguish the sound are usually related to materials selected for use and the structure.

Wire Type, Winding Ratio, Generator Material, Body Material are pretty much to remain as part of a full refurbish, with the most likely to be exchanged being the Coil Wire, if the wire has  a coil that has been damaged beyond repair.

Coil Wire will impact on the voicing and most likely be a noticeable change to end sound.

Sacrificial Parts in the assembly can have a impact on the sound, with my experiences being that the Styli only as a change will be the one least attributed to making changes to the sound being produced.

My experiences have left myself with the thought, that it is the overall assembly that has to be considered to explain why very closely related Cart' Models have a different voicing. 

The Styli > Cantilever > Armature > Damping and Tensioning Tie Wire are the items responsible for the voicing. If this assembly is attached to different Body Material, or Generator Material, further voicing options are able to be produced.

A Styli is pretty much the same material, today Diamond is usually used, but will be found with variation in the form produced.

A Cantilever will be found as a variety of materials ranging from Gem Stones through to a Organic Material. These as a part, depending on material selected will change the voicing. I fail to see how a equivalent part exchange such as Boron for Boron, even if part with Styli were differing weights such as a 0.17mg be replaced by a 0.25mg equivalent part, I doubt the average listener will detect any difference.

The Armature will be quite generic in type, it is a part of the damping system but will be found in different metals, usually magnetic, partially magnetic or non-magnetic. each as a selection will be used as a means to improve on magnetic interference. It will be difficult to suggest if a difference in a material or materials magnetic property will be audible to a typical listener. I would lean toward a change of this item only, to one of a equivalent type, will be difficult to detect as an audible difference.

The Damper Material is where endless research has been carried out and will most likely continue to be carried out, as miniaturisation in general demands the technologies are available to improve designs.

The Damper materials have evolved and are today able to be found as compounds such as:  Silicone, Fluorosilicone, Bromobutyl, Fluoroelastomer, Bromobutyl/EPDM, Nitrile, EPDM. 

Above materials are to be found with a wide range of Shore 00 and Dyne measurements, a Manufacturer will be secretive of materials used and measurements for such material.

It can be very easy for an exchange part of one of these Damper Parts, which is classed as an equivalent part, to be quite influential on the sound being produced. Reason being not one manufacturer is going to make known the selected properties for their damper material used in the assembly, the likelihood being that Damper parts not direct from the Manufacturer will have a different Dyne and possibly a difference to the Shore 00.

In certain levels of a Cart', the Tie Wire is usually selected for the voicing as well. The wires suitable for use are normally a very fine steel wire, which can be seen referred to as Piano Wire.  As this is used for voicing it is hard for the layman to know if it is a bespoke tensioning of a Damper or a certain wire type that is responsible for the Cart's voicing.

The wire is usually anchored to a Pole using different methods to produce the anchoring, some are clamped and some are adhered. The wire also has the potential to transfer energy, maybe the anchoring has an impact on the voicing?   . It is again difficult to say whether a change of tie wire material will be detected by a typical listener, but the likelihood of there being a change to the tensioning and its effect on the Damper, this will most likely be detectable. The tensioning change resulting in the optimising of the Dampers function, might be the reason why so many who have a Cart' returned are immediately impressed. 

The suggestion is that an individual part swapped out apart from coil wire, 'will not' create a sound that is noticeably different. 

If multiple parts were no longer seen to be optimal and selected to be swapped out, then yes, 'a difference in voicing will be created', but how detectable it is as a change to the remembered voicing, will be probably be down to the time spent without the Cart' in use.     

There are individuals with real adeptness in these matters, of which a limited number are willing to make this knowledge available to those who share in the interest, it does not take too much searching to see what is going on under the hood of the Cart's housing.

There are also places where one can go to have a Public Dialogue on the subject, as well as the option of conversing directly with a Third Party Service as the source of answers to questions.

The idea can quickly grow for the developing of such skills being witnessed, which for a few can be very appealing, I know an individual now developing their own skills and already have donor models and FGS tipped Cantilevers at the ready.

. Having a time served technician, using their experience to treat a Cart' with their own developed skills, where getting the Cart' back in the game, functioning  at a very high level of performance is also a real treat to have for oneself.

Another 1000-2000 hours of listening bliss along with $0000''s saved is to be had with such an approach.       

There is a New Purchase Price $10000 dollar Cart’ not too long owned, with very little usage hours recently put up for sale in the US.

The Cart’ is a documented case within this forum, for having developed a fault that was in place way way before a Tip Wear Concern could have arose.

The above reinforces one absolute! Cart’s are Fragile !!!

The environment the Cart’ is typically used in is very hostile to the intricacy of the Cart’s design, additionally, the user interface adds to the risks associated to the Cart’s fragility.

Combine the two impactions on the Cart’ as stated above, and it is pretty much a given that by the time the Styli is worn and needing a assessment for replacement, the Cart’ is already far removed from the New Purchase Supplied Condition and is one that is with a long term usage that has not been with a condition that is closely resembling a optimised functioning Cart’.

My suggestion to those that care to have a optimised functioning Cart’ in use that is now outside of a Warranty Period. Is to create a relationship with a Third Party Service, and have the service periodically Thoroughly Clean the Cart’ and maybe inform there is a need to carry out Tensioning to the Tie wire, to return to a optimised the damping function.

A treatment such as this, carried out a few times prior to the Cart’ being completely overhauled after a period of long term usage and Styli deterioration, is not too much of an inconvenience or added cost to keep the replays as accurate as originally intended, and additional $400-$600 might get one beyond the 2000 hour styli life is their Vinyl in use is thoroughly clean.

At the time of Complete Overhaul, the owner can decide to return to the Manufacturer or continue with the Third Party Service to continue with their very valuable maintenance.

Note: In many cases, a Cart’ returned to a Manufacturer will be treated with parts that have equivalent properties to the ones used in the original returned model, hence meaning the Cart’ will not be supplied as a return, meeting the exactness of the original purchase !!

There is a very strong possibility the replacement parts selected by a Third Party Service will have equivalent properties to the ones being selected to be used by the original manufacturer, or even be an improvement in their extrinsic properties as the overall assembly?

The choice is quite straight forward, one can Pay a High Price for a returned Cart’ from a Manufacturer, that is the Manufacturers 'latest version' for this Cart’. The likelihood is that the Cart’ will not be an identical model of the Cart’ sent in.

Alternatively, one can pay much fairer monies for a Cart’ sent in to a Third Party Service. With the Knowing the Cart’ will be overhauled by a very skilled technician, with the likelihood being non-original Parts are to be used. With the end product being as valuable in use as any Cart’ version on offer from the alternative option.

@jsbail Has produced a equation similar to ones I have presented in the past on the subject of cost per replay.

@jsbail stated " If you take care of your cartridge and get 2000 hours out of it, at about 44 minutes per album, it is about 2,727 albums. If you pay $12,000 for the cartridge, it costs about $4.40 to play an album. Only you can decide if it is worth it to you. "

This is also able to be presented in different manner and one that has been supplied recently through a Cart' Sale as an opportunity to be realised.

Obviously an option such as this is not too common and is one that is Cart' Bound, leaving the idea of having Cart' Options as the long haul methodology to make a Purchase.

A $10K Cart' with approx' 100-200 hours of usage life was put up for sale at approx' $6K.

If the 2000 hours usage was realised this would come in at, using above math' $2.20 per replay (1000 hrs @ $4.40).

Using a Third Party Service to overhaul the Cart' @ approx' $500 and the following usage extends to 2000 hours the cost of replay per Album drops to $1.60. (1000 hrs @ $3.20)

The Cart' in use 'will' by design and material selection most likely standout as an attractive performance way beyond a new purchase Cart's that will come in at $1.60 per replay.

As Cart's today are advancing in their designs with minuscule graduation in  improvement, even nanoscopic might be a better description, the TOTR Cart' of a previous generation 'will' not be easily differentiated as a Performer.

With the above in mind, a Cart' following one overhaul and 4000 hours of usage could undergo another overhaul @ maybe $600 will come in at approx' $1 per replay for the overall 6000 hrs. ( 3000 hrs @ $2ish)

I strongly suggest cleaned Vinyl is used any Cart' that comes with a particular Value, is sent into a Service at least once, to undergo a thorough clean during its period of accumulating its pre-overhaul hours, if this is adopted the cost per replay will creep up.

If a user with a tight budget has the opportunity to use such a methodology for their Cart' needs, and successfully achieve Two 1000-2000 hour usage periods, this is a economic way to attain usage of a item not usually considered.

I myself have Cart's rebuilt and Donor Cart's to be rebuilt.

My rebuilt Cart' in use at present, has been upgraded to be comparative to the Brands TOTR models from a past era. My Cart' has the same Damper assembly as used in the upper range on models.

The Cart' has been side by side compared the the Brands TOTR model from the past era, which today can still be seen offered as a £4K sale item. There is little to be concerned about during the A/B of the Cart's, my Cart' has certainly shown it is not the Poor Cousin.

With cost of Donor and Rebuild, if I get to the 2000 hrs of usage, using the above math, I will be in at £00.30 per replay, but for myself £00.70p vs £4.00 per reply is extremely welcomed as well.

'Oh Happy Days'.  

I like to think my new purchase Vinyl will be quite high in quality as a first replay, but usually it had been found not to be.

Buying from a supplier that makes a return easy is beneficial, and I have returned an Album on one occasion three times, of which I believe the fourth supplied was the better of the batch. This same Double Album was cleaned using the PAVCR Manual Method and was much improved, much of the noise diminished.

When buying Albums under my other guise to help a new to the industry Artist>Band, this can be a increased risk as a Crowd Fund or Merchandise Web Page can be the sales portal, returning an Album can be less straight forward.

I take all new purchase Albums to my HiFi Group to offer new musical encounters, to date the die hard Vinyl Brigade have always been complimentary of the Vinyl's Quality.

When it comes to replaying my long term owned Albums, some as long as 40 years, where many of the performers are now passed, I don't go heavily on the criticism of the Vinyl's condition, I just like it to replay in a way, I feel the Styli is not being exposed to unwanted abuses from the grooves condition, surface noise and a tick/pop, these are merely crows feet wrinkles seen at the sides of a loved ones aging eyes. I would not swap that Vinyl out for any other, a CD will have to do, if a recording it is to be listened to without the aged interference.        

@dwette It is your choice of how to achieve extended usage of a owned Cart'.

When any method is adopted such as Manufacturer or Third Party Service, there are Key Words to be considered. 

Words such as ' Equivalent Part' is commonly seen in a description. 

Equivalent not identical, for many many Cart's returned for refurbishment, they will be returned as a variant of the original one supplied. 

J Carr has on another occasion made it known there is one Cart' in Lyra's range that is rebuilt as like for like. This not typical, as fragile parts deteriorate over time in storage as well as in use as the intended function. 

I have seen dampers looking like a half eaten ring donut, as a result of UV exposure. Which Cart's mounted are totally protected from UV? 

In 2023, I visited a friend's to assess a change to the  Signal Path within their Analogue Source, Cart' Tags were now continuous and Phono Cables and Phonostage connectors were low eddy. 

Here is the complexity that was met, by complexity, the element of hard to believe is a good description.

A donor model Cart bought in to be rebuilt was added to the Cart's to be used.

The system owner kept the Cart's condition to himself, but made it known we might be easantly surprised.

The donor Cart' really did impress and was encouraged to run on in ure.

Winding up the session the system owner revealed the Cart had been sold to him as a Cart with well over a 1000hrs of usage. To this day the Cart' has left a indelible impression and made me rethink less harshly about what defines the end of a  Cart's usage life when it is still intact and usable. 

What could be offered as a simplistic method ??, as a means to experience different Cantilever Styli assemblies would be on where the Joint Pipe projecting from the Armature, was a Threaded Stub.

A Cantilever that is commonly seen inserted into the Joint Pipe, can have an assembly where the Joint Pipe is internally threaded and pre-bonded into the Cantilever.

This would leave the connection of the Cantilever to the Armature as a method not needing adhesives, which should then have a set up where Cantilevers are at much less risk of being damaged when exchanging.

The idea of not using adhesives, will make a Cantilever exchange much more predictable and possibly more affordable, hence making the idea of experiencing differing C'lever>Styli forms a easier one to ponder.

A Third Party Service could quite easily produce a Cart' that enables for this to be part of the design, and could have a sales model in place that prior to purchase enables the buyer to have a option to experience different configurations, such as Styli Type, Cantilever Material, Connector Sleeve Material.

Everything I have learned about Cart's especially MC's, leaves me of the view the Styli form has the least overall impact on the sound being produced. 

The most that influences the sound being produced in order, is the Magnetic System chosen, the Coil Wire Type, Damper Material Type and the overall structures function, as a result of materials chosen for the Cart's assembly.

All that I have experiences of, leaves me of the view, that if there was a Cart' with  Cantilever Part, that had a bonded threaded sleeve as the coupling to Armature method. If this was able to be supplied in a variety of materials, there will be materials used that will show a noticeable difference to a sound being produced.  

Or forget such ideas, maybe sticking with with what is a time served proven method, ' if it isn't broke why attempt to fix it . '

No Way - You’ll have to Live With It.

Go to the Orthography Forums out there and do the lurking , it will be much better suited to some of the Whingers who lurk on the Gon.

DT Quoted

" I love the poorly educated."

DT Loves me 😍, hopefully in a similar manner all the Performers of music over the years have Loved 😍🤩me as a fan. 

Not one idea that will be proposed by the average thinker for a MC Cart' to have a simplistic exchangeable Cantilever/Styli assembly will be one would be Cart' owner friendly as is the MM methodology for C'lever/Styli exchanges.

The designs I see that can be put on the table by 'Mr Average Thinker', are ones   that would have the need of a professional technician to carry the procedure, as being invasive of the very very fragile assembly is unavoidable in a typical MC design needing a new part?

A design that has low man hour needs to complete the exchange and the notion that fragile parts are much more protected from associated risks for being damaged, might? make the idea of having a Cart' with easier to exchange C'lever / Styli as an attractive option for learning and assessment about materials effects on changes to produced sound produced with differing materials used for the assembly at this interface.

Being myself an 'Mr Average Thinker', I can't see much more value to attempting to carry out such a design. 

In the hey day of MM, it was not uncommon and at the present still here but less common, to see off the shelf parts as a C'lever / Styli assembly, that is using different materials from those selected by the OEM for certain MM Cart's. 

As stated " I am Mr Average Thinker ' on such a Subject. 

I have 'thought' about the Cantilever to Armature Interface being a mechanical coupling being one that is not dependent on adhesive and be a coupling that is more in relation as a coupling, that is similar to the micro mechanics found in certain watch designs.

I don't see any further need to flog to death, this very basic idea. 

What goes into producing a $15K Cart' from one Brand, that separates it as a construction from another Brands Cart' $3K, $6K or $10K.

It is already known that certain Cart's in the US are offered at $10K and can be imported to the door from Country of Manufacture for close to 50% less as a purchase, Shipping and Import Levy will need to be added.

So a $10K Cart' through certain suppliers has been a $5K cart' plus shipping + Import Levy + Importers Mark Up.

What has also been learned the Hard Way, is that the Importers Mark Up was very well protected through their offering a 90 Day Warranty limitation.