What do you see as the downside of tubes?

I have both types of amps in my living room. I find the biggest problem with my CJs are the fact that I can't leave them on 24/7 playing music like I do my solid state system.

Heat is another matter. In the winter time, there is enough heat that the furnace doesn't turn on. Which leaves the rest of the house cold since the thermostat is in the same room as the tube amps.

In the summer time, the AC runs all the time when they are on. So, in addition to spending extra electricity money to run the tube amps I also spend even more money to remove the heat from the room. So, in the summer I either don't use them or just turn the AC off. I live in the Bay Area in CA, so you have an idea of what I mean.

Yeah, I do have to replace tubes but that is less $$ than buying a phono cartridge and about equal to having my speakers surround replaced. Actually, now that I think about it, the cost is way less than the money I spent on CDs that I don't listen to because they are such bad recordings. I don't see cost as a big issue for the tubes.

But, heat and limited on time is a biggie. On the other hand, the sound is so much better than my Class D home theater system that it is worth it, really.

F1a, not smoking anything, must be the second hand smoke from fellow audiophiles burnt tubes. Seriously, as Fpeel noted, nothing I posted hasn't been reported before.

buy an amp that's fused so you don't have to send the unit out for repairs (or learn to solder) anytime you short a tube

There is no guarantee that a fuse will go before a tube blows a resistor or fries a circuit-board trace. The ARC VT130 that I owned years ago and the CAT amps that I own now both have fuses but damage can be done long before the power line fuse ever knows there is a problem.

you won't be going back to ss anytime soon imo...buy an amp that's fused so you don't have to send the unit out for repairs (or learn to solder) anytime you short a tube & keep a backup set of killer tubes around for those occasional hiccups...enjoy

Most lower watt SETs are not hot running. Room warmer far from it. Runs about as hot as any large class ab or class a SS amp.

Rleff, thanks for the suggestion :) I might have to think about a drip can so I don't get burnt fat spots on the tubes.

Krauti- It was a good thread;enjoy the new gear;fun wasn't it and don't forget to spray pam on the frying pan.

I'd rather have a hot tube amp than a tiger. The thing with the tiger didn't go so well for Siegfried and Roy.

Well, think the thread has come to an end and I appreciate all the replies. Glad I didn't change my decision on the amp as an extra heater in the room isn't so bad. Being a mechanical engineer I might just need to design some contraption that channels the heat and put it to good use. Maybe a coated aluminum plate above the amp to fry eggs or so.

my twin boys grew up with big tube amps sitting on the floor, wide open without cage. no, they never got burn.

my friend puts it best. if you can train a tiger to perform in circus, you can train your kids not to touch the tubes. 05-15-09:Semi

Obviously your boys are the exception rather than the norm. But for many of us taking the chance you took would be a bad idea.

I have read most of the posts and the down side has been covered very well. I have owned various high quality tube and SS amps and speaker matching is the key. I have heard your speakers with a quality 300B amp and it was magical. The only way you are really going to know about the downside of a tube amp is to buy it and decide for yourself. Yes those 300b's can be very expensive but they can also make a great heater in the winter.

Ah nuts, had I only tried putting a Mack truck on my old PS Audio amp before I got into tube amps, I would have saved a lot of pain and suffering from the hassle of tube amps.

With tubes "these days" you never know how many hours your get out of tube before it goes bad....some can go bad with only a few hours on them! Solid State gear can be made to sound a lot better by putting hand weights on top of your gear and speakers...start by adding two twenty pound weights and (wait about a month and see if you like it). If you still don't like the sound just keep adding weights until you get the sound you like best.

What is drawing me to this tube is very much some reviews of the amplifier in question and the sound supposedly being this "the singer's in the room with you".

I have to admit that the little brother of that amp, the Due Venti, did a marvelous job in my opinion and I have asked myself if I should get that one as it's available right where I live and would even cost me $500 less, new warranty and everything whereas the 300B I'm interested isn't new. On the other hand at least judging by the reviews I prefer the sound of the 300B based amp over the Due Venti with it's EL34's.

Decisions, decisions :)

If the 300B

Krauti-I was wondering what is drawing you to this tube as I have never heard one.

Kiwi-I think I would have to disagree with your view on bass and I am wondering if you have any experience with
tubes more than just listening to a friends system or auditioning
My question is based on "control over bass".
I consider control over bass as being a accurate reproduction with all the related properties that go along with it;and a tube amp is certainly capable of doing this
at least in my system and experiences.
I don't consider this as a downside over tubes.

Krauti- Here's an informative article that will give you some idea about the presentaions of various 300Bs: (http://www.stereophile.com/features/229/) Pay attention to the paragraphs concerning burning them in before critical listening. Many attempt to integrate tubes and their systems, without first doing sufficient homework. When the expectations aren't met; they get frustrated. What a surprise!! A well thought out, tube based system(that includes your acoustic environment) can bring you very close to the pleasures of live music. Here's a 300B that wasn't available when the above article was penned: (http://thetubestore.com/eat-300b.html)

What are the downside of tubes?

I think the greatest downside is that some people simply expect too much from tube amps.

They want the tubes so they can experience a wonderful liquidity in the mid range - but then are annoyed at the lack of vice like control over the bass.

They want the tubes to experience a wonderful 3D vocal image - but then are annoyed that the soundstage does not extend up to a mile behind the front speaker plane.

They want the tubes so they can enjoy a wonderfully smooth and unfatiquing reproduction to the music but then are annoyed that some of the details are missing and resolution does not seem to be of the highest possible magnitude.

They want the tubes so they can tweak the sound by 'tube rolling' but then get annoyed that the price of some most desirable NOS tubes are going through the roof - and after the same tubes are fitted - they still have not achieved the musical 'shangri-la'.

The downside to tubes is not really the physical characteristic of the tubes themselves or when placed in a circuit what they contribute or do not contribute to the sound. Rather, the downside to tubes is the unrealistic expectations that some audiophiles continue to attribute to them.

And late at night I'm back to check on this thread :) Mrtennis, you have a point there. As tube amps allow us to roll the tubes and try different things it is hard to optimize the system as there is quite a choice of tubes out there.

The other side to that argument is that with SS amps I don't have have the freedom of simply purchasing a set of tubes to change something. I actually have to roll the amps so to speak to achieve the same result. Needless to say, some tubes will cost me the same as an amp and that need to be taken into consideration.

As this thread has been going on for a bit now I'm glad to say that my decision to go with tubes and namely the Mastersound 300B intergrated is unchanged.

Thanks for all the great input and I mean all of it. Yes, most everything can be measured, but at the end of the day it comes down to what we perceive as good sound.

I personally don't believe that one needs to spend $10000 to get a good tube amp. In fact I listened to the Mastersound Due Venti again today and the smile on my face was big. The price tag was way below above mentioned number and yet I smiled.

Bummer, maybe I have a problem by not being able to hear the $7000 difference. But hey, the good part is that I can buy a hearing aid to help me and have money left over for a better amp. Hmmmm, if only I had that $10000 :(

Thanks folks for making this a great thread, well, at least to me it was, or should I say is as I'm still right in it.

another consideration is not finding the tubes to optimize the sound of your stereo system , when using the tube amp. there is no way to predict in advance what affect a tube will have on the sound of a stereo system. this can be frustrating, especially if you are dissatisfied with the sound of your stereo system.

Mapman-Lafayette Radio there's a store from the past;we had several in Buffalo,NY and I always like checking out their equipment.
Krauti- Glad you liked my bias log;helped me a lot;I never had a tube blast out a speaker driver when it failed and I believe 100% with Ralph from Atmasphere that design is key.
I am not familiar with the output tube you are asking about but there sure are lots of feedback on the thread you started.

Most amps have safety measures in place if a tube goes bad (or is bad right out of the gate). I bought a Rogue Tempest II integrated back in February and apparently UPS dropped it while it was being shipped. Among other damage, one of the tubes was bad (Rogue tests everything before shipment). When I plugged the tube in after receiving the amp, I found out it was a "runaway" as the bias on the tube pinned the needle all the way to the right and the tube popped the corresponding fuse. So a popped fuse, a little bit of smoke, some cussing and that was it. No damage to the speakers, no damage to the amp (other than what UPS had done to it already, unfortunatley).

Rogue took the Tempest II back and instead I went with a Stereo 90 that they custom modded for me (which took another month of waiting to receive), but aside from the waiting I couldn't be happier.

Tube amps are not exactly hassle free, but they're typically not a pain in the #ss either, unless you end up with a bad apple (and what manufacturer doesn't have a dud every once in a while?).

Well, the more often I come back here the more I known that I'l stick with my original decision to get the 300B amp.

Tinkering with things I do like and biasing the tubes and keeping a log (thanks Rleff, I like that idea) is a good idea to keep track of things.

The speakers I have I did buy knowing they'd be a better match for a tube amp than other speakers (I shall not say good match as surely someone would say there are much better ones) and so I better get that tubeamp and find out about the "magic".

And now as I have a day off I shall go fishing :)

Rleff,

Thanks.

I know that it is possible for oneself to keep tube devices in proper working order.

Personally I just haven't done it for a while and never with an expensive hiogh end tube amp and was curious what tools and procedures people use with their high end amps these days.

Like most good things in life, there is some work and know-how involved to maintain anything that is worthwhile.

Not all who like good sound are cut out for this kind of thing though, so I just think people should be made aware of what goes into keeping a good tube amp in good working order, that's all.

Back when tubes were king, into the late 70's, people did it all the time.

Back in those days when I worked at Lafayette Radio and Radio Shack, there was a tube tester in each store, and we used to help people check their tubes as a regular service.

Replacement tubes were stocked in-store and sold regularly as were many common electronic parts.

I sold many a tube and don't recall exact tube prices, but I do not recall ever selling a tube that cost more than $15-20 back then.

Mapman; I have a b&k 747 tube tester and check tubes every 6 months. I think visual and audible changes are a indication as well to check tubes.
Also I kept a bias adjustment log when I had amps with manual bias adjustments; When bias starting to drift I would pay closer attention to that output tube.
I know many people will think this is extra work but I have several $$$ invested in my amps and pre amp and just want to keep them running at their very best;much like a person who maintains their car.

The only time I had a tube amp damage a driver in loudspeakers was from a cheap poorly built dared amp that had parts shift in case work. Have had tubes fail never had 1 damage any amps or loudspeakers. Mostly you hear noise and slightly more distortion that lets you know its time to check or change out tubes. Realy not a issue. 300b available from $150 pair up. The mastersound can be retubed from about $250 up. I have had solid state amps damage loudspeakers when they have had problems this is not just a issue for tube amps.

my twin boys grew up with big tube amps sitting on the floor, wide open without cage. no, they never got burn.

my friend puts it best. if you can train a tiger to perform in circus, you can train your kids not to touch the tubes.

Raquel's original comment had me somewhat baffled; the follow up post clarified things. A 4 ohm load is harder to drive and to do it properly does require more from an amp. That's not the case with a more efficient load. A properly matched system can work well with a "lesser" amp in a well matched system, though at some point a matter of "degrees" will creep into any discussion of audio equipment.

Unsound makes some interesting points. In my limited experience there's validity to them all, but, again, it comes down to matching equipment. But Unsound also makes the best argument of ALL for tubes, albeit indirectly. They keep life exciting! Taking my Seedwings Sensor (Google it) out most weekends isn't enough. I need the excitement of tubes, too! :-)

Unless you or your pets (or both) are having sex with the the amp, I wouldn't think burns would be an issue. No more than a hot stove and usually a warning will suffice there for those that don't know better (or they'll learn fast enough). Besides, most have covers or grills.

The majority of new tube amps should be reliable, but if replacing lightbulbs in your home is too much of a headache, then a tube amp may not be the answer.

I've owned both, to me my current tube amp sounds the best of any I've owned and it does great in home theater duty too.

I was never more seriously involved with the music and this hobby until I started acquiring tube equipment. I don't see any downside at all. I personally would never consider the cost of tubes or biasing to be a downside. It's no different than performing maintenance on your automobile. Of course, this is just my opinion!

Seriously Unsound, what the hell have you been smoking?? And no, I DON'T want any.

I was a solid state amp/tube pre-amp man for years. My systems sounded great. Then I purchased Canary monoblock tube power amps and mono-block pre-amplifiers. I have not listened to my superb solid state set-up 30 minutes over the last month or so.

The sound of an all tube system is so seductive. Semi hit the nail on the head, at least for me, in his post. I don't like the maintenance but I am now convinced that the sound of tube amps make the headaches of biasing and testing tubes worth it.

Now that I have tried tubes, I will never go back.........

Nice thread and some very good points both pro and con. I like the sound of tube amp and the ease of a good sounding SS amp, I use both, but all of my SS amps lean toward the sound of tube amp. Since I also own the Mastersound 300B SE I am going to address your questions with this amp in mind. The Mastersound only has 6 tubes, 2 of which are the 300Bs so heat is not really much of an issue, compared to most tube amps this one runs pretty cool. My Mastersound amp is the higher output version which uses either the 32B or 300BXLS tubes and yes these tubes are quite expensive, probably around $625 for a pair of 300BXLS tubes, the 32B tubes cost much more. However, new regular 300B tubes can be found for around $150 for EH to around $350 for a pair of really nice Full Music Mesh Plates all the way up to very expensive Western Electrics with various price points all the way up. The other tubes, 5687s and 12au7s are very inexpensive, so overall tube replacement is not all that expensive or much of an issue.
Biasing the 300Bs will require a meter but those are cheap and biasing the output tubes only takes a few minutes. Once the tubes settle in I only need to check the bias about once a month and rarely do I have to make any adjustments. So overall the downside to this particular amp is very small in relation to the sound it produces.

Every time I come back there's more. Looks like I started a small avalanche here :)

I shall take a look at the amps mentioned in the thread though so far I haven't chamged my mind. The only thing I don't like so much is the price of tubes. But at least it seems one can get them. Can't say that about ammo for my target gun (hmmm, yeah, sometimes I like things that make boom.

The other thing that does seem to crystalize is that there is somewhat of a potential for damage to the speakers if a tube says goodby in the shape of a wee supernova. Is there anything that can be done to prevent any downstream damage like additional fuses?

Well, thanks again and I shall check back later on.

Loose bass, forward midrange, bright glassy upper mids/lower highs, rolled off upper highs. Variable performance. Unreliable. High maintance. Difficult to get replacement parts. When they break, they offer the potential to break other links in the system. Excessive heat. Potential burns to children, pets and others. Can cause fires. Requires more care in placement. Limited to use with high impedance speakers. High cost per Watt. Greater sensitivity to speaker cables. Sensitive to vibrations.

How do you reliably diagnose the bad or failing tubes for replacement when an amp has so many tubes in use?

Regarding the comment by Markwatkiss about supposed fairy tales, high quality output transformers are mandatory (as are hefty power supplies) for controlling the woofers in the typical audiophile speaker featuring a 4 Ohm or less load in the bass, and they are extremely expensive. I am not aware of any tube amp that retails for less than $10k that can properly control the woofers of such speakers assuming a normal listening room and average program material.

Ralph (Atmasphere): I agree. I have owned auto-biasing VAC Renaissance 140 monoblocks (sixteen 300-B's) or a VAC 70/70 (eight 300-B's) for almost nine years - they have been completely trouble-free. Having an amp that, if I may quote you, "is designed properly" is the key - cheap tube amps do not play in your league.

Rolled off highs, bloated bass? :-)

Raquel, just a FWIW, we probably have as many tubes in our amps as anybody, but they are autobias and hold together quite well, even if a tube fails. Having a lot of tubes does not have to be a pain in the neck if the amp is designed properly.

You don't have "to spend more than $10K to get a good tube amp" That's simply a fairy tale.

I lost patience in trying to read all of the above - here are some random thoughts:

Viridian makes the most important comment in my mind - you have to spend a lot of money on a tube amp to get a good one, i.e., one having power supplies and output transformers of sufficient quality to enable it to properly drive most audiophile speakers. It's hard and risky to define "a lot", but let's say well north of $10k retail - many (if not most) tube amps are overrated and not understood by their purchasers.

Your Living Voice speakers, however, are excellent and present a benign impedence load, allowing you a lot more flexibility with respect to amp choice. I have no personal experience with the Mastersound amps. I do not want to steer you away from single-ended amps on Living Voice speakers, but a hassle-free tube amp that is really well built and sounds truly great is the VAC Renaissance 30/30 push-pull amp. It biases the output tubes automatically and has a tube shut-down feature that kills the power to any output tube that is about to blow (these features take all of the hassle out of owning a tube amp). All point-to-point wired (no boards on those babies). It runs four 300-B's and puts out 32 watts/channel - it would sound like a 600 watt/channel Krell on a highly efficient speaker like the Living Voice.

Despite the high initial downstroke, good 300-B's (Sophia Electric, Full Music, E.A.T.) will last a very long time (10,000+ hours / 5+ years).

While some tube gear is truly problematic to own, a high-quality tube amp running standard-fare pentode or triode output tubes is arguably more "reliable" in the long run than certain high-end solid-state designs - when a tube amp is retubed, it's basically a brand-new amp, while some high-end solid-state designs have been known to become irreparable because they use rarefied output transistors that go out of production. Also, you replace output tubes, while a $50/hour tech repairs the solid-state amp you had to pack up and send away to him.

A high-powered tube amp that uses a lot of output tubes can be a pain in the ass to own because of the higher likelihood of tubes losing bias and fact that easy biasing is not always a design priority (Brunhilde and Wotan owners with burnt fingers know what I'm talking about). However, if you are running a single-ended amp with one or two output tubes, or a high-quality amp that auto-biases like a VAC Renaissance or Audio Valve, there is little or no more demanded of the owner than with a typical solid-state design.

What a great thread! I have been fascinated by tube amps for years and have never had the money or gumption to go that way,though the systems that I have heard have been magical.I am leaning more and more toward taking the plunge and going with a tube rig.I have a set of the original Snell "E 1s" and they should be a good fit for a tube amp or integrated.My main system has Acoustat 2s and unless I could aquire some serious big mono blocks would be a problem to drive.(If this is faulty thinking please say so)
The Dynaco ST70 and the upgrades/restorations available seem like a good starter path.Also I was thinking a tube preamp for the Acoustats might bring a touch of the tube sweetness I long for.
The Dynaco refurb route has a certain symmetry for me because I am driving the Acoustats with a Hafler 220,so I would have David Hafler's early and latest designs to compare a contrast.Also, it seems to me that since there are so many of them in use still that they must be doing something right.
The idea of tweaking and tube rolling sounds fun and interesting to me as well.Nothing is more fun than tweaking and discovering new magic in your system;after all,this is a hobby.
As for tubes going away in production;it seems that the Chinese and Russians are making them (military grade)in great number.(planning for Nuclear winter?)
Now if this recession/depression would just turn around,I could start shopping.:-)

I've seen a few mythologies espoused on this thread so maybe we can sort some out.

Triode-based amplifiers tend to have very consistent performance over the life of the tubes, which in general also lost longer. In this case, Krauti is considering a triode amp. Pentode tubes do degrade much faster, with far less consistent performance.

The idea of 'damping factor' is confusing and not helpful. It is certainly **not** required to produce deep, articulate bass with plenty of authority and slam. All speakers and amplifiers do not work together; if for example you think that because you have a solid state amplifier it will drive anything, think again. There are plenty of speakers out there that it will not be able to drive correctly, just as if you have a tube amp, there are plenty of speakers out there where the same applies. It is in fact a matter of equipment matching in all cases, see
http://www.atma-sphere.com/papers/paradigm_paper2.html for more info.

Heat: if properly designed, the components in a tube amp will last as long as they will in a solid state amp. Its as simple as that- otherwise we would not see vintage tube amps still in service after 50 years...

Also, it is a fact that class A operation makes for the best sound (all other things being equal that is), whether tube or transistor. So if we are talking about a tube amplifier, the heat it makes will be only slightly higher than a transistor amp that makes the same power. Granted, the heat **sources** are more concentrated in a tube amp, but for the record the difference between tube and solid state **if we are talking about class A operation** (and we are in this case), is only about 15%. IOW, the heat comes from the class of operation, not so much the device. Try running a transistor in class A with no heat sink and see how hot it gets (hint- it can melt plastic)!

Kusina, wow!

Gotta admit that as someone who just wants to spend as much time as possible listening to good sounding music for reasonable cost high power tube amps employing many tubes in particular do scare me. I'm sure they are fantastic when things are going right but when something goes wrong, then what? Even in lieu of a big bang like Kusina relates, it must take considerable time and energy to replace just the bad tube or tubes when needed.

I have one tube in my DAC, 3 in my phono section and 3 in my pre-amp line level stage. I've been running this setup for about half a year now without issue, but frankly, the thought of dealing with a tube amp capable of delivering in my system scares the crap out of me.

If I used high efficiency horns or some other high efficiency speaker design that did not require lots of juice to sound good, I might take the plunge.

Actually, my 2nd 2 channel A/V system running the Triangle Titus 202s fits that bill. Maybe someday there.....

One of my output tubes flamed, welding itself to the socket and otherwise doing some damage to the amp. The amp's fuse blew, but not before a power surge blew out all the resistors in the crossover to one of the tweeters. The amp manufacturer repaired the amp, and the speaker manufacturer repaired the speaker. The speaker manufacturer maintained that the tolerances of the resistors would have withstood a surge from a solid state amp. My system is now all solid state. I like a quiet life.

300b tubes are readily available as are all the other tubes mastersound uses. These tubes are all in current production. So many choices in new tubes plus if you want to roll tubes lots of vintage choices.

As Eve Anna says, tubes rule. The other stuff pales into insignificance, for me at least Good luck, Dave

The heat is really only an issue if you don't use a tube cage and have small kids. I hate being hot. Yet I am not warmed up by the tubes in either of my two main rigs each uses either 8 output tubes fat botle 6CA7s or KT-88s.
I own 7 tube amps all work.
I own 4 SS amps 3 work.
Of all the preamp tubes I have used only one just one burnt out unexpectedly. The out put tubes in the past 7 years required 2 new sets and after two burnt out in that entire time giving me cause to replace all. Only one time did a now notorious KT77 go down requiring repairs.
The downside is the comment regarding the enormous variety of tubes to try. It can and did get ridiculous in my case fast. Output tubes cost too much to play around with very often.
The sound of a good tube is magical we all know this. Therefore when one gives you more magic it reinforces the idea that you should persue as yet others at first. Then you can honestly settle on your preferences and feel comfortable. I know the 12AU7 I like better than all the others I care to try I also know the 6922 I prefer. My largestbsingle group are 6SN7s but I am very close to shutting the book on that as well.
A downside is that there is no meter on the tubes telling you when they have given their best so you may experience mysterious declines in the tube magic.
I have some solid state for specific applications that you wish tubes would do just as well, but don't. The price of the finite number of NOS/OS tubes has made owning some classics quite prohibitive. A fortunate upsurge in the quality of new production helps alleviate the need for NOS. has made enormous strides but they are not cheap either.
Maybe it is just my luck but my SS amps have had at least as many issues as my tube amps.
Yes turning the rig off is a pain especially when it's the middle of a good session and the tubes are humming (figuratively). That is when they are simply glorious the downside is hearing the march to being in top operation every session knowing it will take time, you can't help but notice the delay.
I am a convert. Until I say I have had it! No more tweaking. And stick with just one rig and one favorite tube for each position and the search for a slightly better tube layout and brands is an albatross around your neck. When the economy didn't hurt me personally, the hunt for the best combination was fun. If I had to start now it would be quite onerous.
I hope my kids will like tubes when they get older and appreciate the collection I have. If not I better put a coda on my will.

Wow, I've never received more replies to a post than this one. Guess what Semi said is what convinced me most :)

Seems that the availability of tubes will be the biggest issue to be considered, followed by the heat. As I don't listen for long stretches of time the heat should be tolerable and knowing that tubes are expensive simply means that I'll have some fun looking for them right away while they are still available.

Haven't actually dropped the money for it yet but will very soon and can't wait to get it. Right now I'm using my old Denon receiver and it's not quite what I want to use on the long run, otherwise I could have kept my Electrocompaniets as these of course were a lot nicer as far as SS stuff goes than the Denon.

Well, glad I got all the replies and feel highly encouraged to go for the tubes. The only direction I could imagine changing my mind to is to a tube amp that uses more affordable tubes and I'm not really considering that yet.

Thanks again