Hello folks! I want suggestions for best speakers and amp for 80's hard rock music. Many bad recordings, so many high end speakers (and amps) sounds very harsh and hard, with little bass. It's more important to me that my stereo can play bad recordings in a good way, than play good recordings in a fantastic way.
I want very laidback and soft treble, but I want a bass that goes deep and alo is very punchy.
I know many people say that I should here on vintage speakers. But I want new speakers. Any price range!
This was a million miles from a controlled A-B; different systems, different rooms, different source material - tho each has been auditioned on multiple ocassions. However, the two speaker systems sounded consistent in character over time despite the differences.
The MBL is "in your face" at high volume with chest thump bass impact and an electric guitar that hangs in the air. Along with varying degrees of bottom heavy octave to octave balance and not insignificant bass overhang.
The SoundLabs were much tidier for better and for worse. None of the tonal issues that bugged me but not nearly the visceral impact, either.
Im pretty confident (tho I can't be 100% certain) that amps, rooms, etc aren't the root cause here. These are very different speaker systems and, for me, the MBLs are uniquely strong in the bass impact, macro dynamics, and 3D imaging that suit high SPL Rock n roll.
In my example contrasting MBL vs Soundlab, it was not my intention to
suggest that Soundlab would fo a poor job with Van Halen. It WAS my
intention to suggest that the big MBLs would do a better job (at least
to my taste). The delta is probably more significant on the flip side -
The MBL wouldn't be my first choice for chamber music, while the
Soundllab might well be. Both speakers sound good with a variety of
source material, but the MBL (in particular) shines with loud rock music
IMO.
In the case of Sound Labs, the amp you use can make an enourmous difference! Because it has high impedances at low frequencies (where most of music's energy occurs) its helpful to have a tube amp because tubes can make power into higher impedances and solid state can't. This usually results in a pretty profound way that the speaker plays dynamics and bass impact. With the right amplifier a Sound Lab is hard to beat.
In that regard, I've also heard mbls sound pretty good, driven by large solid state amps in turn driven by a high quality tube preamp. However IME the mbls are not really that hard to drive with tubes; the lower efficiency numbers reflect the fact that at 1 meter, most of the sound made by the speaker is not being picked up by the microphone.
If you've auditioned both speakers using the same amp the chances are high that it was apples to oranges due to the amp/speaker interface (the amp favoring one speaker over the other). The idea that mbls 'shine' with loud rock music in particular (over other forms of music) sounds like a statement that is drifting to the world of mythology to me- people with Sound Labs and some of our larger amps tell me that they essentially have unlimited power and can't clip the amps before system is far too loud for them to be in the room. Sound Labs can do quite well at (and in fact are designed for ) higher volumes, with lots of bass impact (the A1s are good to 22Hz). Since the genre of music is unimportant; its my surmise that the jury is still out on this one as a proper comparison has never been made. It does sound like it would be an interesting thing to do though!
Klipsch would be an obvious choice if not for the horn.
I'm a Klipschaholic so my opinion is biased -- but I think you could do a lot worse than Klipsch for a rock-friendly setup. I find that McIntosh and Marantz both have a very warm sound which helps cut the horn brightness. My main system is a pair of Klipsch Forte Is with Crites crossovers and titanium tweeter and midrange diaphragms powered by a McIntosh MA6200 and I find it most satisfactory for my musical tastes: I was also quite impressed with a Marantz 2220 I keep around as a spare. (I should also note that my tastes in rock are more 70s Prog and blues rock -- think King Crimson and Robin Trower -- than arena rock and *ugh* hair metal).
My Forte Is (which were cosmetically battered but sonically fine when I purchased them) cost $300 and I spent another $500 in updates. A new set of Forte IIIs, which have just been released, will set you back $3600-4400 depending on the finish. You might also be interested in the Forte's big brother, the Chorus: they typically go for $950-1250 on the market. I've seen used Cornwalls going for $850+ ($4400/pr new) and LaScalas anywhere from $1k up ($8k a pair new). And if you have the corners and the room for two refrigerator-sized speakers, used Klipschorns can be had for anywhere from $1500 to $5500 a pair -- a new set will run you $11k or so.
In my example contrasting MBL vs Soundlab, it was not my intention to suggest that Soundlab would fo a poor job with Van Halen. It WAS my intention to suggest that the big MBLs would do a better job (at least to my taste). The delta is probably more significant on the flip side - The MBL wouldn't be my first choice for chamber music, while the Soundllab might well be. Both speakers sound good with a variety of source material, but the MBL (in particular) shines with loud rock music IMO.
BDP used his car analogy, and I think there's some merit there, tho I might go with a different variation on that. Some performance cars are designer around higher output motors and live with higher weight. Others prioritize low weight and might trade away horsepower to keep the whole thing light. The design starting point influences the end point.
I do think the designers of the Soundlab and MBL started in very different places. 'Stats and omnis inherently offer different potential and I believe that the respective designers look to optimize the basics that they're working with. In any event, they do sound very different from one another. I prefer the MBLs to the Sounlabs (and probably anything else) on electric rock at high volume. For a real-world variety of source material, I'd probably choose Soundlab.
That statement is based on my auditioning both speakers, not the observations re: design.
Horns are designed to project out to listeners (or simply add efficiency if close listening is preferred), and older ones didn't have phase plugs for dispersion and beaming avoidance issues. My old Altec A7s sounded best when given some distance (That horn was a mid/high thing). In an average size room your ears will distort before most well designed speakers do, and in a large room (like the 360 seat venue where I often mix shows) I have mega watt clean P.A. gear to get any musical point across (18" powered pro woofers). If I’m listening to heavy classical or anything I feel needs to be dynamic in my normal room and just crank it, my subs (8" and 10" RELs) might need to be turned down a little to keep from overwhelming the room with bass, and all else is plentiful…my room is medium-large I think…wallop…great term…wallop...
I have found, listeners who primarily listen to rock, tend to " turn it up ", more so than other listeners.
When I play classical I like to crank it so you really get those bass drum wallops.
Verdi's Requiem (Fritz Renier conduction) on the RCA Soria set, track 2 side one, 'Daes Irae' will bring most systems to their knees if played at the performance volume. Dual 15" woofers really help.
I'm surprised there aren't more people talking about tyler acoustics for requests like this. They specialize in really big speakers that will really rock with good quality drivers but that don't cost a ton.
In my experience, I have found, listeners who primarily listen to rock, tend to " turn it up ", more so than other listeners. Whether better or not, a pair of large Cerwin Vegas ( the better ones ), will play louder, with less compression, than a pair of, say, Thiels, even with appropriate amplification in both cases. I listen a bit louder than most, which is a reason I enjoy my modified Klipsch Lascalas so much. They do ( believe it or not ), showcase all of the " audiophile characteristics " extremely well, such as detail, tonality, coherency, imaging, space, and, can disappear. What they do ( for me ), that many other speakers cannot do ( and I had many in my lifetime ), is play music, dynamically, with little, to no compression, and, with great pace and timing. These characteristics are very important to me, and they fit the bill, my bill, for a very reasonable price. I listen to mostly rock and jazz, with some classical, big band, and swing. MrD
I've been playing guitar for over 50 years and I can and do play a classical guitar (nylon strings), steel string acoustics, and electric guitar. In all styles…master of none really…but still…ever hear Bill Frisell? The comparison of speakers to sports cars is inane to anybody who listens to great audio designs (or owns sport cars)…I've heard kick ass electric stuff on LS3/5As driven by vintage tube amps and it was sublime…no low bass but when you get everything else right it somehow is still right, and classical on my old biamped Altec A7s was also sublime…or mondo lime…or some citrus based thing…anyway I still side with the All Well Designed Speakers Play All Music crowd, only limited by overall loudness (the speakers, not the crowd), and loudness is relative anyway.
stfoth and marty, I have a few times made the case for your exact line of reasoning---the difference between conceptual and real world in regards to loudspeaker strengths & weakness and the demands different "kinds" of music (a string quartet vs. a symphony orchestra, for example) place on a speaker, and how those musical demands interact with those speaker strengths & weaknesses. But to no avail---we are apparently in the minority on this matter, and I don't understand why.
Everyone knows and agrees that a race car optimized for the 1/4 mile is a very different animal from one designed for the Autocross, as is a horse bred and trained for similar, same as a runner specializing in the 50 yard dash versus a marathon. Sure, we would all want to be a decathlon athlete, but how many of them are there? How many musicians are highly proficient in all musical styles? Of course a musician should be able to play any and all musics, but how many can? I can't think of any, off the top of my head.
Loudspeaker design is the art and science of compromise, the designer needing to prioritize his goals for every model. Every design has it's assets, and it's liabilities. Every music places it's own demands on a loudspeaker. It is that all music makes the same demands on a loudspeaker that is the myth, not that it doesn't. To anyone who doesn't think a given ability in a speaker must be sacrificed for another in order to achieve an overall goal at a certain price, I don't know what to say.
I don't need the last word in timbal accuracy, inner detail, octave to
octave balance, etc to maximally enjoy Van Halen - I need huge dynamic
range, bass impact, and the illusion of 3D space - that guitar needs to
be palpable. The 101s deliver that in a way the SoundLabs don't - at
least in my experience with auditioning both.
Sound Labs can be quite dynamic with the right amps. Its hard to make them work with solid state because they have a 30 ohm impedance in the bass which solid state can't drive with a lot of power. For this reason a 100-watt tube amp can easily keep up with a 400 watt solid state amp on that speaker!
With the right amp the Sound Labs keep up with mbl101s no worries! They are quite fun to blast Massive Attack or Emerson Lake and Palmer. Not saying the same is not true of mbls by any means. You just have to make sure that the amp and speaker match, which is a different topic!
With regards to soundstage, dynamics, bass impact... you really need that to do classical music and a good deal of folk music.
Years ago, at SpeakerCraft/Marcof we built a line of speakers that we called Rock Boxes... They were very accurate above 100hz, any audiophile would appreciate them... the woofers were sealed and crossed at 100hz and down, we kept that perfect type qtc of .707, but the woofer was about 2db hotter than the top end. It really was very satisfying on rock... I don't know if anything is out like that now, but that is what I'd recommend for an "All Rock" kind of listener.
Conceptually, it's hard to argue with Atmasphere. As a practical matter, I completely disagree with his point. At a given budget, I'd almost certainly choose different speakers were my listening preference 100% chamber music as opposed to 100% Van Halen.
In the former case, even at Unlimited budget, I might choose a great 'stat, like SoundLab. In the latter case, I'd be more inclined towards something like the MBL 101. The speakers have different strengths and the different program materials play to/away from those strengths.
I don't need the last word in timbal accuracy, inner detail, octave to octave balance, etc to maximally enjoy Van Halen - I need huge dynamic range, bass impact, and the illusion of 3D space - that guitar needs to be palpable. The 101s deliver that in a way the SoundLabs don't - at least in my experience with auditioning both. The MBLs have a few issues that make me pause, but they are KILLER choices if your only need is the illusion of a rock band in your listening room.
Not only is no speaker (IMO) perfect, but speakers that are really SOTA in one particular area do two things -
1). They tend to point out that other very good speakers come up short in (at least) the narrow area that the standard excels in.
2). They tend to have one (or more) weaknesses that become evident when A-B tested vs the best competition.
There's no perfect speaker. Some are more versatile than others, with no meaningful flaws but no SOTA areas, either. Others make a different trade-off, kill it in one or two areas, but live with flaws on other fronts.
My my own listening habits are Catholic enough that I'd probably spend my money on an all-around performer. However, were my tastes really narrow (as implied by the OP) I'd make my decision in a different way.
Picked up some Klipsch Chorus 2 speakers a few weeks ago. Newer Crites crossovers and titanium tweeter diaphragm. Spent lots of time with more "audiophile" type speakers and could never get a lot of rock/metal to sound right and dynamic like rock should be. Some were better than others. To my ears these Chorus were made to rock from low volume to as high as you can stand. Phenomenal for that type of music. Playing some Motley Crue and old Metallica last night and have heard nothing better at my house. Bad recordings still rock and better recordings rock harder. The dynamics are still there. Colored ... probably. Fun as hell.. absolutely.
during the 80's CV offered the "D" "DX" and "AT" series. I owned the AT-12 which was overkill on Rock/HardRock/Metal music. Actually, the 8" or 10" models were more accurate. If you had a large room and a very powerful amp, the 15" would wake the dead!
You know Klipsch make updated versions of some of their heritage line. Heresys are the smallest speakers in that line but by no means small sounding. If they got the crossover fixed it would be an excellent choice. I own the original version, but always wanted to get an upgraded crossover to yield a richer bass tone. They are phenomenal at reproducing electric guitar. Jimi Hendrix sounds like he's playing for you, when you put on some of his live tracks.
I'm not sure what tonal characteristics are important to a "die hard rock fan." Volume? Sensing the presence of groupies? Being able to note the general state of mind of the road crew? What is the ability of speakers to "jam?" Is that when the speakers improvise for extended periods on their own? Disconcerting...I started playing live and loud in 1966 or so…opened for Zep during an early tour, saw Hendrix a few times (including from an orchestra pit about 10 feet from Jimi) and I still love to get my live electric guitar mojo going usually a little too loudly. That said, live large shows often aren't mixed well, and loud small shows (like at a nearby successful smallish venue) often aren't either, so if that's the paradigm it's a strange one. I try for accuracy in my hifi rig, which means what goes in actually comes out the same…warts and all…and hey…for me it's ALL Rock and Roll when that happens. Maybe the reproduction of musical dynamics is the thing one wants the home rig to get right, although often my criticism of newer (and a lot of older) rock stuff is that it's too damn monodynamic.
I am a die hard rock fan. Occasionally I also listen to some blues and even a little classical. I used to have a pair of old Klipsch KG 5.5s that finally gave up the ghost. I replaced them with a pair of B&W 683 S2. They were pretty good, but they just could not "jam". I sold those and bought a pair of Klipsch Palladium P38 (without auditioning - because of the sale) and have been thoroughly impressed by them. They have excellent clarity and can certainly "jam"! Driven by Parasound A21 and JC-2BP and paired with Rythmik F12. You do not see them around too much and they are a little pricey but darn fine speakers.
I thought I wrote this already but can't find it. Atmasphere is correct. The best speakers are the speakers You like the best. Period. That said run Big old Cerwin Vegas and some Klipsch Hereseys simultaneously add a sub and you are off to the races.
I get that as nobody wants speakers that "shine only with good recordings." You need speakers that cover up the faults in bad recordings making the recordings sound better, and also allow great recordings to sound great…perhaps a "shitty recording" filter built into your Magicos to allow you to indulge in badly recorded music, and the ability to switch the filter off for the good stuff…yeah…that's it! You should be able to listen to as much crappy stuff as you want without the pesky accuracy provided by great sound reproduction. Digital filters could do this with a Badly Recorded music setting…just remember to turn it off when you want to hear the good stuff as who knows what would happen if the Bad setting was left on….
as the highs rolloff of these speakers makes merciful fate, sodom,
bathory, slayer, hirax, satan jokers sound amazing, as if your a real
metalhead,
You don't need to have a high frequency rolloff to enjoy these bands! What you need is a system that does not sound painful when you turn it up. That likely has a lot more to do with the electronics (due to distortion) than it does anything with the speaker.
One of my best friends (Earl Root, may he rest in peace, when introducing me to people in the metal scene would say 'he's not metal' and he was right- OTOH I introduced him to Steve Tibbetts and Popul Vuh; he introduced me to My Dying Bride, Skepticism, Earth, Therion, Opeth...) pretty much founded the metal scene here in the Twin Cities (google...). He was also a record collector and owned a record store. His system was anything but rolled off on the highs- it was very extended and natural (he ran Snell Acoustics model Bs driven by a set of tube monoblocks). The trick was of course to find the LP rather than the CD. A lot of metal kids shopped his store because he was the store in town that had the titles on LP. They preferred the LP because things like the cymbals sounded right when you cranked the volume.
I wouldn't rule out Paradigm Reference studio 100v3's. I have a friend pushing them with an Anthem I225 Integrated amp pushing 225w into 8 ohms/310w into 4. If you set them up properly, cable your system right and have a good source, they can hold their own and then some. Test drive "Chewbacca" from Liquid Tension Experiment 2 with Tony Levin on bass and get back to me.
my energy rc-70's, with way overpowered amps sound purely amazing, and just sound........right. as the highs rolloff of these speakers makes merciful fate, sodom, bathory, slayer, hirax, satan jokers sound amazing, as if your a real metalhead, and your blasting reign in blood or the conspiracy in your car, you KNOW the treble is fuc*in fairly painful, yet we pull through and keep blasting the metal. which is why i love these speakers, they give 0 fatigue, and i mean absolutely NONE, no matter my volume, i can sit and listen to any metal i choose and most of the time i end up drifting off because there is no shrill what so ever! i have two pairs of these now, and they are my go to. if i find another pair i will buy another, they are that good ( for me)
but i still hammer down on my D-9's from time to time, and t hey are an amazing rock speaker. you can't do that with snell, paradigm, or other higher end speakers, there just not made for it
My speaker system sounds great for all eras of hard Rock & Roll, except a few specific things from late June of 1979…otherwise atmasphere is correct as usual, although some may find analog recordings of Liberian Death Mumblecore using a 1952 Martin Tiple somewhat challenging for drivers using alnico magnets. Trust me.
My Classic Audio Loudspeakers model T3.3 are the best for rock and roll. And **all** other forms of music. Because they are the best. In my room. That I've heard so far. With my equipment. And my taste.
Once again, the idea that a speaker is better for one kind of music as opposed to another is 100% myth. The speaker is unable to distinguish what music it is playing.
We're talking about **1980s** **hard rock** for Pete's sake! What if its 1970s hard rock or 1990s hard rock?? Or what if its 1980s metal (which is not hard rock- ask any metal dude if hard rock is 'true')?
How in the heck can speakers be so genre specific?? The simple fact is that they are not. If its good for classical, it will have the punch, detail and dynamic range to handle rock or folk or whatever you throw at it. All speakers trade off things in price and performance; some might say that you need more efficiency or bass to do rock right, but you need that for classical too. As well as 90s house dub. And the ability to play my band, which is 2010s hard rock (space rock actually; slightly different genre...).
So- the idea that a speaker is somehow genre specific if complete nonsense and is 100% myth, and FWIW is the biggest myth in the world of loudspeakers.
For 80s hard rock I really enjoyed a pair of Advent 5012 W speakers that were re-foamed and restored. I powered them with an Accuphase E202 Integrated but had to be careful with the volume control.
For Vintage speakers, i'm going to vote for the Infinity IRS Gamma. You can't beat physics; with 4 x 12" Watkins dual voice coil woofers, the Gamma's get down to 15Hz & pound!
get the best sub you can afford and some small bookshelfs with at least a 6 in woofer. easier to tune the bass to your liking and the satellites will be easier to select . so many small 2 ways that wont be too critical
Any cerwin win vega with the 15 inch woofer. Made to rock, period!!
if treble is an issue, just cut a small square from an old tshirt and tape it to the inside of the speaker cover, if still not enough, double it up. Where do you live? I have an extra pair of the D-9's, not perfect, but sound wicked!
Check the the cerwin website, any large speaker they have will be perfect for metal. I listen to 90% metal, testament, wargasm, napalm death, Bathory, Hirax, the good stuff, and most of it will sound good on a good system, but then you have the early Bathory albums, which played through a k-mart receiver, or a pair of carver cherry 180's won't make much difference :)
cerwin is is a great start, that would be my first foray if I were to do it again. I owned at15, se180's?? Black felt front, acordian style woofers surrounds, and I own 3 pairs of D-9's.
Go go with a basic straightwire style amp for metal, QSC is where I would go, with a good quality preamp. I wouldn't spend to much if just metal. If you need any other help , message me, I have a vast knowledge of metal, amps, speakers etc etc.
Rockpanther , I understand your frustration. I been looking for the exact sound you prefer. It is very hard to find.
Were the Vienna Acoustics you listened the new Symphony Edition? The SE versions are supposed to be more quicker and extended than the regular grand series. I have not heard them yet myself though. Plan on auditioning them soon , so I will give you feed back on them when I do.
Just make sure you listen first before you buy anything . Also , listen more than one time because a lot of speakers and associated equipment can sound great at first , but after a few listening sessions become fatiguing.
Infinity primus 363...smooth treble, open midrange, warm propulsive bass. Klipsch would be an obvious choice if not for the horn. Still, worth an audition. They have hi boogie factor.
Go with Magico S5's paired with Vitus amp(s) and front end, and live happily ever after. That is the best combo i've found to make crappy 80's recordings of classic and hard rock sound good and really rock! Even the less expensive Magico S3's paired with warm, tube-like amps (Vitus Reference Series, Pass XA.5 series, Dartzeel, Soulution etc) can pressurize even a medium size room.
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