LOL, I'll bet I gotcha on that Title! ;) BTW, I put this thread under "Tech Talk" category as it involves the system physically, not tangentially.
More seriously, two question survey:
1. Do you think designer fuses are A) a Gift to audiophiles, or B) Snake Oil
2. Have you ever tried them? Yes or No
In the tradition of such questions on Agon, I'll weigh in as we go along... Feel free to discuss and rant all you wish, but I would like to see clear answers to the questions. :)
Kosst, I do see where you're coming from. Not having the necessary gear to help explain why you're hearing what you're hearing can be frustrating.
What you can extract from your adjustments makes sense but so does changing the fuse, for me. I'm talking a lower noise floor, better punch and drive, increased extension, etc. But not being technically inclined, I just forego the measurements and simply reap my rewards (which is not always the case).🤔 It took three different brands of fuses before I got what I wanted out of them. Unless I win the lottery, I'm done with fuses.
To be honest, I don't know if what I describe can be measured but it certainly can be heard. Each attribute I described can be considered small, ion their own, but add all of them up and it can be a big improvement, insofar as it greatly increases the appreciation factor.
As for George, he's not the best person to have on your side. He tends to dog pile on after having someone else go first. He can hold you back.
Your banging your head against a brick wall, they can’t see the forest through the trees, forget it, they've already lost all credibility, it’s just the way they, the "awesome foursome" roll. Even if someone like Nelson Pass himself came here and told them personally what for, "not that he would lower himself" they still wouldn’t lay down and die!
kosst, First, that was the nicest way to say something.
Second, I do describe what I hear in the ways you recommend. Just read my take on the various fuses I've tried. The funny thing is others have derided such descriptions as over the top and unreal since how can a fuse be responsible......blah, blah, blah.
No winning for the losing, as they say. But as for technical tweaks, replacing a fuse or swapping a linear power supply board for a SMPS board is no biggie, as long as it's made for the unit and the leads match.
You don't know much about me it seems. I think it's best that way.
kosst, How you come to your conclusions will always elude me. I don't idolize engineers so is that a bit of projection on your part? You do it so everyone else must?
Also, I could care less how adept you and George are at deciphering circuits. That is not a prerequisite to knowing what sounds good when listening.
You always resort to personal attacks on credibility so it tells me you probably had lots of explaining to do when growing up. You had to justify costs, actions, and beliefs because you had to answer to someone you feared. Don't think for a moment it will work on me.
Practice what you preach George. I don't need a course in electronics, ohms and other laws (as you like to call them) to negate the need to experiment. I don't require a safety blanket, or mommy's permission. Unlike you, I trust my ears.
nonoise3,375 posts05-08-2018 3:12pmkosst, What can I say to someone who knows so much, that he cannot learn any more?
It's not what you say, but what you do, go and take a course in Electronics, Ohms and the other laws, and educate yourself, then you'll understand and see the light on the BS on fuses you've been spreading.
kosst, Yeah, right. All that great gear out there so horribly designed, and you can do so much better. An amp of yours couldn't possibly benefit from a better fuse. But then, we'll never know, will we?
Looking forward to seeing your line of gear at the next audio show. Will you be on some of the panels denouncing everyone who disagrees with you like you do on practically every thread here? It would be worth the price of admission.
If I wanted to know the difference that bad I'd just jump the fuse block.
Didn't you see the link to where Paul McGowan and a friend designed a wonderful sounding amp only to have it suck when they incorporated the fuse? It completely messed with the sound. Even gold plating the holder didn't help much. They didn't try aftermarket fuses back then (it was in the 80's). It never sounded as good once the fuse was added. The fuse is the bottleneck. Some amp designers figured it out way before this discussion came along.
Kosst, Dream on spendthrift. Do what I did and blow $20-$30 on a Brimar fuse and you'll hear the difference.
Geez! I just noticed, you don't believe in better power cords either? As readily available better power cords are, are you telling me that you haven't tried one because you know better?
You're a sick man, George, but there's a persistence about you that can be endearing.
Kosst, I don't do measurements, I listen.
By the way, I'm still waiting for you to try a fuse, hear the difference for yourself, get over yourself, and then get busy putting your superior know how to some good use figuring out why.
This is the only reason to change a fuse and not to expect some magical increase in sound quality.
This is all potential fusers need to know, forget the "snake oil’ being preached.
As this is what happens to any fuse (including the "snake oil" ones) that have seen too many turn on cycles, it’s called fuse ageing with "switch on surges", as there’s far more current goes through it at the moment of switch on than any other time, as it has to charge up empty power supply caps ect. That’s why fuses and light globes can blow (if nothings wrong) at time of turn on surge, here are some pics of fuse ageing.
Really you should listen to yourself, then scrunch it up and throw it in the bin, honestly.
I would ask you for a better explanation but you’d come back with delusions, expectation bias, etc., and all the tired tripe you have so far. By the way, thanks for not linking your juvenile slideshow.👍
No, it didn't go WAY over my head (though it does) but the fact remains, fuses sound better one way compared to the other. Plenty here hear the difference as I did with three different brands.
No George, that was not the point. Yes, the rectifier (tubes or diodes or what have you) take the AC current and passes it on as DC, blah, blah, blah, but it can only process what it's given, and a better fuse imparts a cleaner sound impacting characteristic of it's own to the rectifier. That was the point.
nonoise And so do the components downstream from the fuse. I looked that up. Some of them are directional and yet......
Only after the rectifier are there components that get DC that "could" be directional. And the AC fuse is before the rectifier so it has nothing at all to do with them. You really are pulling them out of the air "snake oil" style, don’t say anything technical as it doesn’t become you, stick with the "snake oil" that does.
"A fuse is nothing more than a short length of wire designed to melt and separate in the event of excessive current. Fuses are always connected in series with the component(s) to be protected from overcurrent, so that when the fuse blows (opens) it will open the entire circuit and stop current through the component(s). "
A fuse is not just there to melt and do nothing more. It’s part of the current flow to components downstream. Using a fuse and it’s holder just makes it easier to replace but it doesn’t mean that it has no effect on anything afterwards.
wolf_garcia Fuse direction has absolutely zero to do with phase. For fuses dealing with alternating current, fuse direction has absolutely nothing to do with anything. One could think they hear something "like" phase anomolies from changing the fuse direction, but it’s more likely the change is imagined.
>>>>>Just in case you weren’t paying attention, which you probably weren’t, we’ve already established that ALL fuses (or almost ALL fuses) are in AC circuits. Hel-loo! So that shoots down the overly used pseudo skeptic claim that it’s ONLY the fuse located where the AC power cord enters the amplifier that can’t be directional. Follow? Your assignment - dream up some new bizarre theory why fuses can’t possibly work in AC circuits, you know, other than the current goes in both directions. That’s so lame.
Fuse direction has absolutely zero to do with phase. For fuses dealing with alternating current, fuse direction has absolutely nothing to do with anything. One could think they hear something "like" phase anomolies from changing the fuse direction, but it's more likely the change is imagined.
I think the idea of thread OP self moderation has been bandied around a few times . it has its merits but also its drawbacks. However instead of clogging up other threads why don't you start a thread just on that subject and let's discuss it there?
Same post of mine was just made in another thread, but this is worth repeating, IMO.
I understand your point. And I have no disagreement.
For what its worth, I've made my suggestion/recommendation known to Audiogon. The essence of my suggestion is to enhance forum moderation, by empowering the OP with some additional functionality (overview below) .
Let's be honest. The main issue or problem persona is GK. I simply believe in the eye-for-an eye, tooth-for-a-tooth scenario.
I've provided two channels for change, either one (or both) of which will have a dramatic impact. One is the enhanced forum moderation function, another is that I've essentially invited those who state the impossible to come visit Long Island NY and be my guest.
current
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mitch2 geoffkait “That’s the definition of trolling. Now you’re starting to catch on.”
Better late than never Geoff. Although....is it true that trolling can take on many forms? For example, what is the difference between trolling and instigating...or agitating.....or, is that pseudo-trolling? I thought I would reach out to an expert to help me understand.
Most of what you see this days I would probably classify as amateur trolling.
georgehifi"There are no sides here, just opinions, the only sides are the ones you are making up in your head.Of course there is, the BS "snake oil" side of fuses praying on the technically gullible here and the real Electronic Engineering side of fuses."
No that doesn't mean there are two sides here just because there is you and one or two other naysaysers who repeatedly post the same information over and over and with the same tired arguments and incessant demands that other people perform blind testing does not exactly make you a "side" when you are so extremely outnumbered by those who have actual hands on real world experience with the exact products under discussion hear and have actually been willing to share their findings experiences and results so you would need to have some actual information to share if you want to actually be a side as things stand at the present moment you have no side just a lot of complaining.
Pretty sure your attitude and verbage will not help you any in the long run. Your insinuations that I am NOT an EE is fighting talk where I come from son. Just a helpful hint.......
There are no sides here, just opinions, the only sides are the ones you are making up in your head.
Of course there is, the BS "snake oil" side of fuses praying on the technically gullible here and the real Electronic Engineering side of fuses. Ones voodoo and ones not.
fleschler - I was not offered the stupid blind test; however, I can afford it but why would I bother since I already know how superior the SR blue and circuit breakers are to cheap fuses.
To confirm whatever difference you believe you are hearing. This is for your benefit, as in being honest with yourself.
I love Soupy Sales (Pooky was a lion and Hippy was a hippo-no squirrels). I have a nice collection of his 60’ shows and the complete 77-78’ shows. My wife prefers when we watch Buster Keaton, Harold Lloyd and Charley Chase. I add Laurel & Hardy and Charley Chaplin to the mix with a wide assortment of other silent comedians and clowns.
Back to the topic, thank you Geoff for your clear stated comments concerning using our five senses. Primitive man did not have any scientific instruments to determine outcomes. He/she used their senses to make decisions.
Gdal-I was not offered the stupid blind test; however, I can afford it but why would I bother since I already know how superior the SR blue and circuit breakers are to cheap fuses. The same with fuse directionality. It’s so obvious. Unless you cannot hear the difference in polarity in high end gear using polarized A/C cords (or on some recordings/speaker wiring mixup) then you won’t be able to determine fuse directionality either. It’s either in or out of phase.
Yes, it was Geoff who informed us. Knowing that, I used it to support my belief of a "base of evidence".
And what an affliction Soupy was. Black Fang, White Tooth, and that squirrel puppet at the window, along with the unusual walk ins, especially when they had that nude lady dancing for him off camera, which he was unprepared for.
When he saw the naked lady, he glanced over at the monitor and saw the same feed and thought his career was over. It turned out that what the world saw was a different feed from the control room.
That’s the definition of trolling.
Now you’re starting to catch on.
Better late than never Geoff. Although....is it true that trolling can take on many forms? For example, what is the difference between trolling and instigating...or agitating.....or, is that pseudo-trolling? I thought I would reach out to an expert to help me understand.
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