LOL, I'll bet I gotcha on that Title! ;) BTW, I put this thread under "Tech Talk" category as it involves the system physically, not tangentially.
More seriously, two question survey:
1. Do you think designer fuses are A) a Gift to audiophiles, or B) Snake Oil
2. Have you ever tried them? Yes or No
In the tradition of such questions on Agon, I'll weigh in as we go along... Feel free to discuss and rant all you wish, but I would like to see clear answers to the questions. :)
It could be due to the mix of fuse brands that led to niskymichael's results. I've found that different fuses have different sonic effects.
HiFi Tuning fuses tend to accentuate the leading edge of notes at the expense of everything else whilst PADIS fuses, after a long up and down period, tended to dull things a bit. With Brimar fuses, it was like opening that window on all things music.
As for which component gave me the biggest results, it was my SACD player that took a big leap and the integrated, maybe half that, but it was of a different order. The SACD player benefited from a musical stand point and the integrated, a strength stand point.
In all matters of what can be heard in systems we cannot discount the influence of hearing loss, ambient room noise, and the level of equipment. That varies across the audiophile universe, so we should expect a certain amount of divergence of opinion on such things as fuses, even among those who have tried. As for those who haven't tried, these variables don't matter. ;)
niskymichael, interesting that the power fuse held change, but the other signal fuses did not. Have others reported/experienced the same?
My 2 cents, getting back to the general topic.... I'm always interested in the technical aspects of equipment, but ultimately I listen with my ears. I became interested in fuse upgrades for the same reason that "Elizabeth" stated in her earlier post. I have a pair of Magnepan 1.7s that have a fuse in each speaker for the midrange/tweeter. I've always been concerned about the effect of the speaker vibrations on these cheap, generic fuses. I've spent a substantial amount of money on good quality cables, etc. to get the signal intact to my speakers. To then have the signal go through a cheap, thin (vibrating?) fuse wire just prior to getting to the driver made no sense to me.... I was hoping to find a fuse that would at least provide some dampening for the actual fuse wire. I purchased a pair of Synergistic Research Black fuses when they were first released. I was hoping that they would improve the upper frequencies of my Maggies (e.g. less distortion, grains, etc.). Although they did have a minimal sonic affect on the upper frequencies, to my surprise the greater effect was in the BASS. It became more prominent, with better pitch definition. This kinda blew my mind, as it was not at all what I had anticipated. All that I can assume is that the level of distortion in the mids/highs was decreased to the point that the bass was allowed to come through more readily. In any case, it was obvious to me that there was a sonic change, especially since that sonic change was not at all what I had expected.
No longer being a skeptic about fuses, I decided to swap some in my electronics with SR red fuses. I started with the main power fuse in my Rogue Sphinx integrated amp. Improvements in noise floor and dynamics were immediately apparent. So then I replaced the other 2 internal fuses in the amp with the same fuses. No real obvious benefit. Just my wallet was a bit lighter....
I replaced the fuses in my Simaudio Moon CD transport/DAC with Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, as I'd read a user review recommending them for this unit. This did have some minimal, but still obvious benefits in terms of noise floor and dynamics (similar to the effects of the main power fuse in my amp).
I know what my ears tell me, especially when it comes to long-term listening in a system I'm intimately familiar with and with recordings that I normally use as references. Fuses can certainly make a difference, but apparently to varying degrees depending upon the component and the synergy of the system. If you don't personally hear these differences, that's great and you've just saved yourself some money. However, I wouldn't dismiss the fact that other listeners may benefit from fuse upgrades in their own systems. Cheers all!
Fuse directionality is a quagmire; it is of little use arguing it here. There is no advantage to discussing it and it only muddies the conversation. It only offends the sensibility of skeptics. The question will not be settled by discussion of directionality. I'm sure some will disagree, but imo you're wasting your time arguing it with those who don't even accept aftermarket fuses. It's similar to claimed directionality of cables. You largely waste your time debating it with someone who doesn't even think aftermarket cables are significant.
Geoffkait 3-18-2018 But when we talk about fuse directionality we’re referring to the idea
that the fuse sounds better when the fuse is inserted in one direction
rather than the other. A fuse in an AC circuit is directional because
what you hear in terms of sound depends only on the signal during the
alternating cycle when it is traveling toward the speakers from the amp
or to the amp from the wall, whatever. You don’t care what the signal
sounds like when it’s traveling back toward the wall outlet. That’s why
fuses in AC circuits are directional.
Geoff, you've stated this explanation a number of times in various threads. However with all due respect **even if** fuses are somehow inherently directional in AC circuits to an audibly significant degree I would be surprised if there were a single competent and experienced electronics designer in the known universe who would agree with this explanation.
In the case of a mains fuse, when AC current is moving toward the component in the "hot" conductor it is moving away from the component in the "neutral" conductor. And vice versa. So it is moving both toward and away from the component at all times. And a mains fuse is in series with the current in the neutral conductor as well as being in series with the current in the hot conductor, via the primary winding of the power transformer.
And simultaneously, as I'm sure you will agree, energy is being transferred unidirectionally, toward the component at all times, in the form of an electromagnetic wave comprised of photons that is distinct from although intimately related to the AC current.
Similar considerations apply in the case of a speaker fuse, the relevant difference simply involving terminology (the two conductors usually being referred to as positive and negative rather than as hot and neutral).
...when taken out of context. It's just like removing the fuse from the equation to make a point have more significance than it does.
Again, some amps designers say that using no fuse sounds the best but it has to be used, for safety purposes. I find that to be quite a salient point. 👍
The AC signal continually reverses direction, at the rate of 60 cycles per second or whatever. That’s why it’s called alternating current. It the signal first travels one direction then the other. It is therefore bi-directional. It’s not non-directional or indirectional. It’s not continuous as I’ve seen you say somewhere.
But when we talk about fuse directionality we’re referring to the idea that the fuse sounds better when the fuse is inserted in one direction rather than the other. A fuse in an AC circuit is directional because what you hear in terms of sound depends only on the signal during the alternating cycle when it is traveling toward the speakers from the amp or to the amp from the wall, whatever. You don’t care what the signal sounds like when it’s traveling back toward the wall outlet. That’s why fuses in AC circuits are directional.
Everyone agrees that no fuse sounds the best, so just what is it that degrades the sound? Bueller? Bueller? The question that should be addressed is just how much of a change a fuse introduces, not that it's so small as to be insignificant. That undercuts the very argument of those who rely solely on measurements alone.
nonoise Everyone agrees that no fuse sounds the best, so just what is it that degrades the sound? Bueller? Bueller? The question that should be addressed is just how much of a change a fuse introduces, not that it's so small as to be insignificant. That undercuts the very argument of those who rely solely on measurements alone.
>>>>I’m pretty sure we already know the answer to that question. We know the answer by examining what it is that high end fuse manufacturers are doing to achieve superior results. Ready? OK, so here we go. As you said, purer metals for the conducting wire. Also better metal and pure metal for the end caps. Again, better conductor. OK, then you got your beeswax filled or liquid filled fuse or ceramic body fuses for vibration control. Make sense. The super thin wire is especially subject to vibration. You also got your black powder inside the fuse or Graphene on the fuse body for RFI/EMI shielding/absorption. Then you got your cryogenics which further improves performance. If you’re in the spirit a little bitty WA Quantum chip on the fuse is like the cherry on the top. Voila! Hey, how come DIYers don’t make their own fuses? Explain that if you can.
Hello Douglas Schroeder, Your polite reply to the smug, condescending and frankly silly comments from Kosst_Amorjan was mature, intelligent and exceptionally thoughtful. Now on an audio forum we stoop to denigration of religious fundamentalists? Oy vey ! Charles
kosst_amojan The only person I’ve plopped down in the listening chair and played music for who didn’t immediately recognize that they were hearing something of unique quality was a guy who was literally deaf in one ear. My hard of hearing mother thought the money and effort I was pouring into this was kinda crazy.... Until she heard it. It doesn’t take some wacky obsession for somebody to appreciate quality sound and want it for themselves. It doesn’t take hocus pocus fuses either. I’m looking at a thread here full of people swearing fuses - things not even in the actual signal path - make these marked differences. A few months ago I ripped out the big, bad madly shielded IC cables I used in my F5 obtained from a fellow building some very nice cables and replaced it with some solid 26g twisted copper connecting the RCA jacks to the amp boards. That’s a change far more radical than a freaking fuse. It made only the most barely perceptible difference. A $50 for a fuse, eh? To alter the sound of $5 worth of transistors? That’s not insane? I’d be better off better matching my source resistors! Hell of a lot more difference! Hell of a lot cheaper!
>>>>>So, you’re saying your hard of hearing mother says she likes the sound quality of your system? That’s sweet.
The reason you didn’t hear much difference between the radically different interconnects is because your system isn’t revealing enough. Oh, well, that’s the way it goes sometimes. 😛
Let's also not forget that a fuse is not "just a wire" anymore than a speaker cable (unless it's supported in an oversized sleeve with no terminations) or interconnect is "just a wire". If we can get over that grossly oversimplified premise, then we can step back and take a look at what it really is: a component.
We need to understand that it's a kind of filter, and how it interacts with what's upstream and downstream.
A common, run of the mill fuse has endcaps, solder and wire made of some of the cheapest metals around and not of the quality one would find in a good cables. No one in their right mind would make any cables with those cheap and impure metals. Nor would they make traces on a PCB board with the same materials.
Everyone agrees that no fuse sounds the best, so just what is it that degrades the sound? Bueller? Bueller?
The question that should be addressed is just how much of a change a fuse introduces, not that it's so small as to be insignificant. That undercuts the very argument of those who rely solely on measurements alone.
Evidence abounds with how a small change in something can result in a larger change when everything is summed. That's obviously the case here. Observed empirically, there is a change and the only recourse for naysayers is to demand double blind parlor tricks?
On another thread, a link showed how Paul McGowen was subjected to a completely blind test in where a friend changed something in his amp without his knowledge of what it was and it was for the better. I believe his friend did it a couple of times and Paul consistently heard the improvement. He couldn't explain it, but heard it, and accepted it. So say I.
And as for the costs, my Brimar fuses are outstanding, compared to HiFi Tuning and PADIS fuses and are only $35 apiece. That's chump change and well worth the investment.
I don't think either camp has the market cornered in terms of zeal or fervor. Let's try to be civil and stay on topic.
I find there is always disdain for the claim that a change to a wire of shorter length is efficacious. Power cords are derided because, "The power company.... miles of power lines, etc." Similarly, fuses seem to be discounted merely because of their smallness, or short, thin wiring? That may seem common sense initially, but logically I find that erroneous when it comes to power and signal transmission.
As to the pricing, I think there are people who hold absolute values for products and will never vary regardless of the claims made, and there are those who value objects such that they can see the cost relative to the goal. This alone will assure there never to be universal acceptance of fuses, imo.
As I have not spent time with fuse swapping, I really can't offer much here. But I will tell you that when I changed the direction of my power transistors, the results were clearly audible.
"Fusers" strike me as the audio equivalent to those religious fundamentalists who insist you must pronounce God’s name in some strange way or else he won’t hear your prayers ... We need a snake oil forum ...
The greatest fundamentalist religious fervor here seems to be from proselytizers such as yourself, who feel compelled to repeat your version of the gospel even as the majority here seem to be disinterested in being "saved" from the devil you call snake oil.
kosst_amojan, kindly refrain from stilted comparisons to religion. I could go on at length about Darwinism and the foolishness associated with it both historically and currently. So, kindly refrain from the cheap shots. Thank you. :)
Since when are audiophiles "normal people"? We are atypical, obviously, when it comes to music listening, due to the depth in which we involve ourselves in the hobby and gear. Do I give a rip what I appear like to a "normal" person who doesn't get audiophilia? Not terribly. I'm not doing anything illegal or immoral by the hobby, so why should I care what "normal people" think? Frankly, I think "normal people" are in LaLa land when they don't use their brains to process music and the messages associated with it, so I do NOT wish to be "normal" in that sense. To me "normal" means often mediocre, average, uninspiring, etc. So, if you want to take your cues for what you do in an audio system from "normal people", you will end up with mediocre sound and experience. So, again, I could care less what "normal people" think. I suppose there are audiophiles out there who feel constrained by not wanting to look abnormal, so they don't pursue an ultimate system. What a sad thing that would be, to have passion for it and be too self-conscious to live the dream.
Take nearly any hobby - creating those little fake sceneries for fairies comes to mind (people actually spend inordinate amounts of time crafting, then placing miniature scenes for fairies. Now, if you want me to question someone's thought patterns... I won't get into that here, but that makes a fuse look downright sensible!) - and you will have people who seem over the edge. Cosplay fans make audiophiles look downright pedestrian.
The pattern is simple enough to deconstruct; Disdain and disbelief that a product can be efficacious Determination that it is not worth the money Mockery
People are free to do so, but there is a cost associated, the potential to improve the audio system. No try, no potential benefit. The wallet is protected at what cost?
Far from snake oil, imo fuses are the Acid Test of system building. That's why I started this thread. Fuses bring the question of efficacy down to a $50 price point. Imagine an audiophile who rejects a $50 potentially efficacious improvement to the system in favor of a particular $2-5K component improvement without hearing either one. Now who looks "ludicrous" and who looks "normal"?
By normal one assumes you probably mean those who think audiophiles are weird or who don’t know anything about fuses or electricity. All of their obsessions over fuses, Little Silver Bowls, electron tubes, turntables, $100K turntables, Message Foils, clocks, Teleportation Tweaks, vibration isolation, wire directionality. Oh, and their little rituals of treating LPs and CDs. Oh, my! All this religious inquisition talk can’t be good for anybody. 👺
”It appears to be a common misconception that high end fuses have to expensive. That simply isn’t true, you know, no matter how hard they beat the drum. In fact the Cable Company page for fuses indicates many or maybe most high end fuses are less than $50. Some are much less than that. You’d have be a really down and out case to consider that expensive”
"It appears to be a common misconception that high end fuses have to expensive. That simply isn’t true, you know, no matter how hard they beat the drum. In fact the Cable Company page for fuses indicates many or maybe most high end fuses are less than $50."
This is the most shocking audiophile statement I have seen in decades. I thought I was inured to being surprised, but I was wrong. (Just in case you are wondering, I think $50 for a fuse is absurd, and to be told it isn't expensive, is laughable).
Geoffkait, I guess I don’t understand your comments. The fuses are there to protect the circuit in case of component failure, not to protect against the low level music signal. The effect on the music signal is an unintended consequence - which could be large or small dependind on the circuit and fuse design. At any rate, in my system I hear a definite improvement by “upgrading” the fuses through which the audio signal flows. Replacing the main power fuse does not seem to improve the sound.
cakids Stands to reason because the entire audio signal, at very low level, passes through each fuse.
Uh, let’s be fair. The full AC signal passes through fuses located where the AC enters the component. That’s not (rpt not) a very low level signal. Or even a low level signal. You could also say fuses located in speakers, where the signal enters them, does not (rpt not) pass a very low level audio signal. Gee, you could almost say fuses are not really required for very low level signals since low level signals can’t harm the electronics. 😛
In my Rogue Cronus Magnum Ii, SR fuses in the tube circuit make a very noticeable improvement in SQ. Stands to reason because the entire audio signal, at very low level, passes through each fuse. An extremely thin wire that is meant to melt under excess load is probably not well suited to passing 10 octaves of delicate music signal without altering phase or amplitude for some frequencies. An audio circuit bears no resemblance to an appliance where the main purpose is to generate random heat energy, of course.
jayctoy Doug they are not gift, And no plans to try.Very expensive..
>>>>Actually, sir, they are not expensive. That’s an Old Wives Tale. There are more than a few high end fuses around 20 bucks and a bunch under 50 bucks. Create Fuse from China is 5 bucks. Check out The Cable Company’s fuse page and see what I mean. Even some stock fuses have high end versions now. Gosh, what’s the world coming to? 🙄
I would much prefer "I can see testing." Live with something for about a day, week, month and notice if you will be surprised by details and nuances that you never heard before. Double blind is stupid. You run it on a system you are not familiar with... with music you are not familiar with.. in a room you have no idea how things should sound... with recordings you have not heard a million times. Detecting differences on short runs of music to be evaluated by men in white coats is not conducive for one to relax and enjoy the music. Its a test is like running an obstacle course.
What ever thing you are going to evaluate? Put it in your system and listen to it for a couple of weeks and listen to many different songs. For the music picked for the blind test might not show the contrasts that with another song the attribute change becomes obvious.
If you are a big boy and can hear? Why go blind to see the light? Its stupid. I used to run AB testing with amps and speakers when I sold audio. Its a pressure test. Not a pleasure test.
If you can't hear when there is an improvement with your own system over time? Then you leave it alone. But, stop treating those who do benefit as if they were mice in a lab. Its inane when on your own system it will either be heard, or not. Its that simple. Some won't. So they want to test others to prove that they are not missing something. Its their way of getting back for what they lack.
... I thought we already agreed a blind tests proves nothing.
I'm not a big advocate of audiophiles conducting double-blind tests, which I think have greater value to designers and manufacturers. I wouldn't say they prove nothing but - for audiophiles - they prove very, very little, which is why I think they are a complete waste of time for most of us.
What's interesting is the constant clamor from some who insist upon such testing. Those who are so vocal in their advocacy for double-blind tests should conduct their own and share results with us - rather than insist others do their work for them. Frankly, I doubt the sincerity of these advocates.
danvignau In all seriousness, has anyone ever tested these designer fuses to see if what they really offer is simply the ability to pass more current, i.e. as not protecting your electronics with properly rated fuses?
Gee whiz, guys, I thought we already agreed a blind tests proves nothing. Especially if the results are negative. You know, due to the things that can go wrong. Especially for those among us why aren’t really used to doing tests of tweaks or cables or who all thumbs. 👍
Blind tests are a lot like the old witch hunts of Salem Mass, a woman suspected of being witch was subjected to ye olde Dunking Chair. If she died she couldn’t have been a witch otherwise she would have saved herself. Let the Inquisition begin! 👺
God gave you one mouth and two ears for a reason. - Judge Judy
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