VPI Classic 3 Upgrades or Move On to Something New

Here's something to try.....take 2 dimes, put them on the record with no mat.... so that the dimes don't touch the spindle, but their heads face the spindle.   Put the VPI center weight on the dimes, and the peripheral clamp in place and tell me what you think

Thanks for the update. Enjoy!

Sounds like the stars have aligned. It's always fun and eye opening to hear improvements in the system. How deep is the rabbit hole? Very. Enjoy!

So ultimately I went big and switched to a Dr. Feickert Blackbird turntable with Kuzma 4-Point arm.  Currently demoing a My Sonic Lab Hyper Eminent cartridge, but have a Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum and a Soundsmith Hyperion on the way for demoing and will ultimately settle on one - can’t afford to keep two at that price level. 
At first I had a pucker factor spending that kind of dough but I find myself listening to music for hours almost every night instead of just occasionally,  The Blackbird’s speed is dead-on-balls accurate and for a belt-drive has great torque (due to two motors.)  Hard to describe the improvement in sound quality because I made so many changes to my entire system (phono pre, amp, cables) as well as the using a different tonearm and cartridge.  Needless to say the changes overall were not subtle. 

I've owned a SDS, now an ADS. Wasn't able to compare for SQ. The SDS is easier to use as the ADS fine touch knobs are hard to get speed to hold steady. Both would come off settings made from a week prior by a little.

I have a Roadrunner/Eagle now that I'll soon set up. Hoping this package with the constant speed correction won't be aggrevating.

@turntablemat

Hi Mat,

As I mentioned above, I own a tricked out first generation VPI Classic 1/2 table, which I upgraded many years ago with the help of Jack and/or Mike.  The upgrades included installing the Classic 3 300 RPM motor and cap (prevents turn-on/off thumps).  In addition, I switched out the Classic 1/2 arm and base for the Classic 3 stainless steel arm and base.  So, I have a first generation Classic 2.7 (sic).

My cartridge is a Lyra Kleos.  My electronics gear is all ARC. 

So, ... I am not interested in dropping mega bucks into the table.  But I was thinking about the 3D arm and maybe the SDS speed controller.  

What are your thoughts about the upgrades just noted? 

I also note that VPI is using a gimballed arm.  Does it sound significantly better than the old JMW uni-pivot?

One last question.  Do the following parts require replacement at some point:  (1) the inverted bearing that supports the heavy aluminum platter; (2) the uni-pivot needle upon which the JMW arm rests; and (3) the metal bearing inside the JMW arm which sits on the uni-pivot needle. 

As an fyi, I clean and lubricate the inverted platter bearing at least once a year and put a drop of electric motor oil on the shaft of the motor.  

Your "care and feeding" advice will no doubt help other VPI TT owners.

Thanks

Bruce
       

@phillippugh To confirm whether it’s the SDS, you can plug the turntable directly into the wall. That’s obviously not a solution, but it will help you determine the root cause of your issue.

If it’s the ’table, which is likely, check to make sure the bearing and tri-pulley are clean and lubricated and that your belts are not slipping.

If it’s the SDS, I’d have it serviced. Steve at VAS is the expert on these. He also offers an inexpensive modification that will improve reliability.

i have a tnt/sama/flywheel/sds. i'm recently having speed fluctuations- as noticed first aurally and then as measured by my kab strobe disc/light. i'm assuming it's the sds so i'm looking at vpi ads. has anyone compared the two? i seem to remember when the ads came out it was not particularly well recieved.

Hey all, Mat from VPI here :)  Wanted to jump in and say hi and try to offer my assistance in anyway.  It has been rough this year because of the ups and downs of COVID and us having our second child.  There have been weeks where it has been a crap shoot and we still have the auto message up warning that messages might be delayed.  When my daughter was born (which took Jane and myself out of the office) at the same time we had two different COVID scares and lost all the Office Staff members for almost 3 weeks.  I chalk it up to being another 2020 moment.

Anyway, @slaw  mod sounds interesting and could be something cool to try.

 Any table with the motor built in always has the potential for transmission of vibrations with the heavy top plate, dampening material, and separate motor plate it measures extremely well. @cleeds nails it with his comment about AC in general.  That being said, things to check are to make sure there isn't any gunk in the motor spindle, and that the set screws on the pulley are properly fastened. 

We have found there to be other factors that can be at play regarding the room, isolation, and placement of the turntable.  I will say that our HW-40 feet are the best feet (within a non stratosphere price point) we have ever made and isolate better than all other feet of ours in that range.  Another thing to look out for especially when working with super low output cartridges is what it can pickup in your system that you don't want running through your speakers.  Whenever HW would run the Ortofon A-95 he always preferred it with a subsonic filter.

In general if anyone ever has a problem first us an email and I'll try to personally hop in to try and help :) 

Ok coarse a MyMat or two?.....

If you are using the dual pivot upgrade, as am I, I highly recommend my additional upgrade to the dual pivot.

I offer a thin PEET film that is carefully placed  on your dual pivot plate. will reduce noise thus increase clarity.

PM me

bigby

... Since each motor is a little different in construction and the electricity coming into our houses is not perfectly regulated, the SDS allows you to set the correct speed using a strobe ...

The AC line frequency - which is what controls the speed of an AC synchronous motor - is actually very tightly regulated, because the stability of the electrical grid requires it. The root of the speed differential that the SDS corrects is mostly the result of variations in pulley size and in the case of the VPI SAMA motors, the distance between the motor and the platter.

I am a big fan of the SDS and upgraded to it from the old VPI PLC. As an FYI, Steve at VAS offers an inexpensive modification to the SDS which is said to ensure longer life. I had him modify mine out of an abundance of caution because I don’t plan on parting with my VPI TNT anytime soon, if ever.

@bigby 

Thanks for the info Alan, ... especially your comment that most of your listening is by streaming with Tidal. 

An fyi, ... I just replaced my old ARC Ref CD-8 (straight up redbook CD player) for an ARC Ref CD-9SE CD/DAC player.  I owned the CD-8 for over 9 years and it was pre-owned when I bought it.  The CD-8 transport started to glitch out so I replaced it with the CD-9.  The CD-8 owed me nothing after all those years of great trouble-free service. 

The CD-9 can handle various source inputs (e.g. USB, AES, Toslink, etc), but can't handle DSD or MQA.  Apologies in advance, ... I am too old to understand what I just wrote.  ;)  

I mentioned all of this because I am looking to dip my toe into the "streaming waters" (kinda' a pun) like you.  I was thinking about starting out slowly by hooking my Windows PC directly into the CD-9 DAC via a USB cable.  Several streaming services have been suggested, including Tidal, Qobuz, etc.    

All that said, I still love my vinyl.  My kids buy me lots of well pressed jazz reissues, which are fantastic, including artists such as Mingus, Brubeck, Monk, etc.  And I still have most of my old LPs from over 40 years ago.  One of favorite artists from the day is still Linda Ronstadt.

Well, as far as vinyl goes, based on comments from you and others, I think a proportionate investment might be a new VPI 3D arm and an SDS controller.

Thanks.

Bruce
    

Look at TW Acustic turntables for somthing much better.

Hi,

The SDS does ensure the platter is spinning precisely at 33 1/3 RPM. It does this by allowing you to vary the frequency (hz) of the electricity coming into the motor.  Mine takes about 59 hz. to spin at 33 1/3.  Once set, the SDS regulates the electricity coming into the motor so the speed does not vary. I use the strobe to occasionally check the speed and make slight adjustments.

 I think the important point is the electricity coming into the motor dictates the speed of the motor.  Since each motor is a little different in construction and the electricity coming into our houses is not perfectly regulated, the SDS allows you to set the correct speed using a strobe and then adjust the frequency of the electricity so the motor spins precisely and consistently at 33 1/3.

I haven't done any other upgrades.  My Classic 3 has the original metal arm, the record clamp and outer ring.  Most of my listening is Tidal streaming with a PS Audio Directstrem DAC and CDs using a Marantz CD player.

I saw a used VPI SDS on US Audio Mart for $800. 

Sounds like you have a nice set up with all ARC gear!

Thanks,

Alan

@jjss49 

I read your early post.  So,... it seems you enjoyed some SQ improvement from the 3D arm.  That might be something for me to consider.  I presently do not intend to drop major bucks on a whole new TT rig.

I just upgraded my phone pre to the ARC Ref Phono 3SE.  I expect delivery next week.  I also swapped out the RCA/SE I/Cs that connected the old phono pre to my linestage for XLR/BAL I/Cs.  Together, both changes might make for an interesting SQ improvement.

I'll report back.

Other than Alan (bigby), any other reactions to the SDS controller??

Thanks           

I have tried slaw's PEEK tweak for the dual pivot and like it.  Helps protect the pivot plate (which is all I expected it to do) and I also noticed things were a little more "airy" and the backgrounds were "blacker" (which were completely unexpected).

@bifwynne

read my post below... it is the very first one replying to the op

one of things i dislike about vpi is how it ensnares you into their upgrade spin cycle...

i am happier with my well tempered now... one and done...

Additionally, I have developed a substantial upgrade for VPI owners that currently use their dual pivot 

PM me. I provide a PEEK film, very thin that is peel & stick,.

@bigby 

As I mentioned above, I own a Classic 2.7 (sic). Basically a Classic 1/2 plinth, which I upgraded by swapping out the tonearm, base and motor for Classic 3 parts.  The Classic 3 arm is the original metal arm.  My cartridge is a Lyra Kleos.

I am not looking to put a lot more into my TT setup.  Was thinking about swapping the old Classic 3 metal arm for the 3D arm. 

Wasn't really thinking about the SDS speed controller until I read your post.  Not being familiar with the SDS upgrade, I thought that it ensured that the platter was spinning precisely at 33 1/3 RPM.  Is that not so?  Does one still need to check RPM speed with a strobe?

Alan, what incremental improvements would you suggest?  I am NOT looking to drop mega bucks into the TT.  Would be interested in something that gives big bang for the buck.

My electronics are all ARC:  Ref Phono 3SE, Ref 6SE linestage, Ref 150SE amp.

Thanks

I have a Classic 3 and did the SDS upgrade. It was amazing to get the correct speed on the platter. Everything was a clearer, truer and easier to understand.

My suggestion is to get a kit to measure the platter speed and a VPI SDS to regulate the speed.
I got the SpeedStrobe Turntable Speed Tester by KAB. I created a wire stand from a hanger for a stable point to measure drift against the platter. I put the strobe mat over an old record to get the full weight on the platter.

My system is Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua -> Classic 3 -> Sutherland Phono Block -> Spectral DMC 30SV -> Spectral DMA 400 -> MIT Oracle Cables -> EgglestonWorks Rosa -> plenty of room acoustics

It was like a new turntable after the upgrade. It was inexpensive. I you don’t like it, you can sell it!


Thanks,
Alan

I started with the Classic 1, then a Classic 2.5, and a big BAT Phono Pre running an SS Voice. I then upgraded to a Prime Signature and an SS Helios with the same VK-P6SE and since added the 10" Fat Boy, Tru-Lift, Avenger Reference Feet, ADS with HRX pulley and Periphery Ring Clamp.
With each upgrade I noticed an improvement, some subtle and others major. Adding the 10" FatBoy tonearm was the most audible upgrade with the Reference Feet next. The bass is robust and clear, mids and highs are balanced in tone and detail. I have achieved, from within my budget, the best I can do. And, I am very happy with it.
VPI as a company is a different story. I agree that it is often times very difficult to reach someone knowledgeable since Marc left. Now it's a crap shoot who you get and if they know anything. Jose acts like a gate keeper with strict orders not to let anyone in, in fact he wants to be the "be all" to people and his knowledge of the products and audio is very limited. He wouldn't let me talk to Matt so I sent Matt a Personal and Confidential letter. He responded through Mary, sending me the stuff Jose couldn't get his act together on. I won't go into the litany of screw-ups on getting the FatBoy and Reference feet.
Finally everything is settled and I am once again a happy camper enjoying the tunes.

For your money spent to upgrade better got another table as mention above ,But 
with your cartridge now will not make a lot difference btw .
i do have classic 3 too with metal arm .just get better cartridge you will be happy 👌

Get a Sota Sapphire, put a Schroder CB on it and you will never think about buying another turntable. This will set you back just under $10K.
Once you get use to a properly designed suspended turntable you will never believe people could buy a fixed one regardless of weight. Suspended turntables are immune to foot falls, they will not feed back, and they are much quieter. Mechanically coupled environmental noise can not make it to the cartridge. On top of this you get a magnetic thrust system for the bearing, you can add a brilliant 3 phase motor and control system and you get the best customer service in the business. If you do get the urge to move up in the line, Sota will take your table back in trade for the new one. 

The phono stage is usually better (I guess there are always exceptions) if it is a dedicated box outside of an integrated amp, even within the same brand. I would recommend getting a good one. I have a Plinius integrated amp with a phono stage that can be set for MM or MC that I used for years with my van den Hul One Special cartridge (fairly high output MC - .75)  and when I took the plunge with a Sutherland Insight PS, it blew me away. I was never aware of how much of a difference a phono stage makes. I thought you either had a phono input that worked  or not. In combo with the cartridge it is second in importance only to the arm. I like gimbal arms - easier to set up and use.

Matt doesn't answer the phone at VPI, but they do answer the phone - you can ask for him and if he is busy, leave him a message and he'll call you back. He helped me out with my cartridge (they are now the US distributor for van den Hul cartridges) and was a pleasure to deal with. I am lucky though - I live only an hour from their shop so I got to meet him and I couldn't believe how nice and down to earth he is. Also, Harry comes in 2 days per week, so he is not retired. Didn't get to meet him.

That being said, if you are tired of tinkering, I am a Rega fan, mainly because of their value for the dollar for their arms (and overall cost effective philosophy). Their top of the line table, the P10, is $6700 and they'll throw in a great cartridge for $1000 (1/2 price). It's all preset and locked in and you can be done with it. I have their 2nd best, the P8, that I am extremely happy with - a guy at VPI even told me he thought it was cool when they were setting up my cartridge. Of course, you can go higher than Rega's best, there is no limit, but they are a substantial company that has perfected their products over decades and when you ever want to switch tables, their resale values are excellent.

Try the phono stage first - I think you'll be very surprised at the improvement for not a lot of cash.

I have a VPI Super Prime Scout with a Lyra Kleos. I have my eye on a Prime Signature with the gimbaled arm. Rather than upgrade the super prime to the gimballed arm for $4000 I would rather spend $6500 and get the P Sig with the arm and the nicer plinth. But I would definitely keep the Kleos

bigkidz, ... do you know if Matt (or anybody) picks up the phone at VPI?  Years ago, before Harry retired, somebody (like Jack or Mike) would also pick up the phone.  Not sure what goes at VPI with Matt at the helm. 

If you decide to keep that table replace the arm with VPI's gimbal bearing arm. Your bass will improve quite a bit and it should do just about any cartridge justice.

I would give a call to Matt at VPI.  He is very easy to deal with and honest.  Ask him for assistance.  

jjgasp,

I own a Classic 2.7 (sic).  Basically a Classic 1/2 plinth, which I upgraded by swapping out the tonearm, base and motor.  My back-up cartridge is a SS Zephyr.  My regular cartridge is  Lyra Kleos. 

Your OP states that your cartridge is a SS Zephyr.  If 1st generation Zephyr, you can get more bang from your buck with a cartridge upgrade.  The Zephyr (1st generation) is an ok cartridge, but just ok. 

Agree with comments above re phono pre.       

Currently swapping in and out two integrateds with built-in phono stages  - Vinny Rossi L2i SE w/L2 phono module and Linear Tube Audio Ultralinear w/ MM/MC phono stage.

tablejockey's comment about a good phono stage is a good one

but certainly not exclusive of getting a better performing table

Thanks to all for your valuable feedback.  Much appreciated.

Never mind the table....

Is it plugged into the best phono stage you can afford? After that, up the food chain with a new SS cart. You will get endless opinion saying the VPI is this or that, but your ears tell you it's fine. 

Treat yourself to this .Submit your best offer, and see if a middle ground can be met.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa50ed-vpi-industries-hw-40-40th-anniversary-direct-drive-turnta...

Or this
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa5a7g-vpi-avenger-reference-turntable-turntables

The Achilles heel of the VPI Classic series is the motor noise transmitted directly to the plinth and picked up by the tonearm and cartridge, which is especially noticeable if running at 45 rpm with the HRX pulley, in which case the motor is spinning faster than when using the stepped pulley. At 33 rpm, it is only heard when putting my ear up to the speaker on a quiet or blank track. Admittedly, it’s somewhat faint, but I believe it contributes to the lack of ease which is ameliorated with a better isolated design. But the rigid mounting of motor, platter and tonearm, in combination with the heavy platter, does give very good speed stability, especially when hooked up to a motor controller or a PS Audio power regenerator. One thing that slightly lessened the motor noise on my Classic 4 was removing the rubber grommets between motor plate and plinth, then tightly screwing the plate to the platter, which better grounds the noise to the plinth. Before, the motor was freer to vibrate in place which was louder.

One of my tts is a VPI Classic 3 Sig SE.

First, the JMW arm is not a 3D arm. If your Classic 3 isn’t a Sig, you’ll need a HRX pulley for the ADS. Best sound then is with 3 belts.The VPIs, sadly have a long history of manufacturing issues, one being S2P distance being off. If other owners haven’t noticed this, I’ve tried to make them aware. The Sig feet will not be a significant upgrade over what you currently have. (A well thought out platform will serve you better for any tt you have/want). Having said that, I’m currently using Stillpoints SS Ultras. Still had to modify the motor cover plate on the underside for these feet to sit equally square. A good mat will be very beneficial. I use two MyMats. I found the dual pivot upgrade to be significant but since it was an afterthought, I’m not sure it will outperform more thoughtfully designed uni- pivot arms.

I have to say, with all of the thought into my VPI, it sounds very good now with my Sussurro MkII. It was a struggle to get there though.

one person’s experience for you as you collect info

i have a classic three with 10.5, metal and 3d arm (running at art 9, dyna xx2 and shelter 901) - 3d arm was noticeable upgrade, then went dual pivot... cool, but not a big sq difference

i still have the table, but since then i bought a well tempered labs amadeus as well as a oracle delphi 2 with origin live arm... both tables are more ’musical’ than the vpi which sounded cool and clinical in comparison... vpis bass a smidge better but up the range into mids and highs there was so much more ease and rhymthic drive to the music

the classic 3 sits there on the side rack, idle... looking cool, but that is about it