Kento's. I sure wish I could afford those, lol. WOW> |
@ctsooner Nice! Did you listen to the Kento or the Quatro? |
@karl_desch , I got to meet Jon at Ultra this week. What a great great guy. I agree on his set ups. That was sick how the walls disappeared in that room. It's a real world room with no acoustic play toys. The system was cold, but you could tell that it was opening up etc after about 20 min. Even with that, it still sounded 'right'.
I look forward to visiting with him again. |
@audioconnection The amps are a pleasure to use. They continue to surprise me with their natural presentation and increased resolution compared to my previous amp (XA30.5). Over the weeks they are becoming slightly more extended in the high frequencies but never harsh or analytical. All this is also in context of new speaker cables (AQ William Tell Zero and Bass biwire) new power cables (AQ Hurricane and Thunder) and a new 10M interconnect (AQ Earth XLR). Very impressed with how the old Quatro Woods are delivering it all in their new positions in the room. |
buddy here in Seattle just ordered Quattro with M5, driven by Aesthetix signature preamp and PS Audio DAC.....going to be fun :-) |
Hey Karl,
just checking in to see how the new Vandersteen amps are running in?
Best JohnnyR |
There are plenty of very fine affordable tube and SS amplifiers to pair with Vandy speakers. Peek under the hood of the model 7 amplifier ( you can see a rare internal photo on my Poverty Bay Sound system page ) and imagine trying to trickle that $50 k plus down into a $15k price... not easy when you start out listening to the M7.
Value isn’t being the cheapest- look at the model 2 - still beating inflation:-)
On Brinkmann- typically paired w Vandersteen 7’s at the Munich show - I appreciate the genius of Helmet - I use gis Bardo direct drive table and have his DAC on my short list.
on the long rumored preamp - ? Who knows when - just keep playing music !!!
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@tomic601 ,
I use the KX-R (non Twenty), and find it to be a fine preamp. It even bests my Atma MP-1, which is no slouch either, though if I played around with tubes and made some additional upgrades, I bet it would get even closer to the Ayre.
Funny, I asked Mr. V. about a preamp at the Kento demo at Audioconnection, but he was very cagey.
I think I will proceed with the KX-R upgrade when finances allow, or they have an upgrade special.
B |
The value in Vandersteen products has always been a performance/cost
ratio and the M5-HPA compared to any amplifier at or above its price
point is as great as it has ever been in my experience.
JohnnyR
|
the KX-R was on my shortlist....Richard is working ( slowly ) on a killer preamp, with functionality nobody else will have...
I have been listening to my Reference system today after a 3 month hiatus ( covid forced ) and good as the TREo CT / RM-9 combo is the 7 and 7 w ARc front end is jaw dropping..
fun
hopefully everyone is well |
@unsound. I do understand that sentiment. Having owned Vandersteen 1c, 2ci and other value leaders in the Vandersteen line, and can say that while the prices have grown in the higher end line, the sound quality does seem to keep pace with the price increases. This makes the Treo/Quatro/Kënto competitive with even higher priced speakers.
The amps are pricey at ~16,000 a pair. I was comparing them to Ayre monoblocks and Pass Labs monos that were around the same price. The dealer I bought them from also sells Audio Research as well and might tell you that the M5’s outperform the Ref 160 monos when paired with Quatro or Kënto speakers.
Jeez! I sound like a Vandersteen dealer! It would be amazing if Vandersteen could sell something like the M5-HPAs for around 3 or 4K which would make them more competitive with lots of amplifiers and more of a value proposition. But the M5 has relative value given their sound quality and absolutely overengineered design. That ultimately made the M5s the right choice for me compared to other upgrades from my Pass XA30.5. |
I’m not at all surprised that they would work well. I am surprised that one of the masters of value, amplifiers are so expensive. |
At some of the Shows Vandersteen was using Brinkmann gear with their speakers. |
They really do seem made for each other. To be more specific, I have noticed in the past that it would take higher listening levels to get the speakers to sound balanced across frequencies. Like the speakers were a bit "closed in" sounding with former amplifiers. The M5-HPA make the speakers sound correct at lower and higher volumes. |
Richard calls it an unfair advantage when the speaker designer makes the perfect amp for that speaker :-) enjoy !!!!! |
I have had the pleasure of having the M5-HPA and the new AQ cabling in my system at home for a couple weeks now. I am really enjoying the new presentation which has improved imaging, soundstage depth, micro detail and a sense of space in the recordings. The sound is more musical, colorful and communicative. I can't recommend more for Vandy owners with powered subs to: Get your speakers setup in your room optimally, think about your current cabling and consider the M5-HPAs for amplification. |
Just an update. I decided I liked best what I heard at Ultra Fidelis. I ordered the Vandersteen M5-HPA and William Tell Zero/Bass cables. Very excited to see what the change does for my system. Thanks to both Jon Spelt, @audioconnection and all of you for your advice. |
@pilrem. Thanks for the endorsement of Jon too!
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I’m sure it makes a difference. Right now I’m at “sounds great” but want to get to “sounds amazing” like I heard at Ultra Fidelis with both the Quatro and the Kënto. |
I have complete trust in Jon at Ultra Fi. I have been building and upgrading my system for 15 years and Jon has always helped me through education and support, not just trying to sell me stuff.
My system now consists of Vandy Quatro CT powered by a ARC REF75SE amp. To me, this is a great match and I am holding onto this for as long as I can. Sources are a VPI Aries 3 with Lyra Delos... and an Aurender A10.
...it’s calling me now!
One of the most important things I did to ensure the best sound is have Jon personally set up my speakers with his Masters Setup. I did the math and set up the speakers according to the Vandy manual and I really took my time. Sounded great. Then I decided to have Jon do a Masters Setup and... Amazing to me the difference. |
@karl,
Yes, feedback seems to affect the performance of Vandy speakers.
It seems all the companies that use zero feedback seem to work with Vandersteen- Ayre, Atmasphere, Aesthetix.
And, Vandersteen.
Belles is also a good fit, but I don't know if it has zero feedback.
I do know that the little Belles Aria Integrated paired with the VLR's is a superb match.
Bob |
I have heard great things from both John R and Jon S about the William Tell and Robin Hood speaker cables. Seems like a big leap forward for Audioquest. I currently use Kimber 12TC shotgun Biwire which neither of the Jons likes! Something about a midrange suckout... I am happy to try a nice short run of these AQ speaker cables when I convert to monoblocks. I’ll also be auditioning some AQ Water XLR for my 30ft run between preamp and amp. See if I can hear the diff between that and the Mogami XLR currently in place.
I am interested in your experience too @gdnrbob! I’ll read about the William Tell and Thunder power cables too. Oh and the Niagara 3000/5000....those were also involved in my Ultra Fidelis auditions. |
Karl, After many comparisons here, is an experience thread on audiogon of a fellow that had owned the Pass XA 60 Monos and Vandersteen M5 HPA this is a typical outcome when our customers do that comparison.
((((. I was pretty happy with XA60.8s when I had my Quatro CTs, but the more open midrange on the 5ACs made me feel something was amiss that no room treatment, positioning, or Roon DSP tweaking could ameliorate. Essentially, there was a glare in the upper midrange - at times. On good days, when I wasn’t too fatigued from other things and perhaps the AC quality was good, (P20 is only on upstream components), I could be floored with my setup. At other times, trying to get through an extremely difficult piece to do well on a system - for example, Brahms 3rd symphony, especially the opening, was a bit fatiguing. RV himself chalks this up to the XA60.8s having global negative feedback, which causes time smear and is especially evident with his time and phase correct speakers. Also, I’m sure something could be said for the simpler circuit path in his M5-HPAs. All I can say is that once I heard the M5-HPA’s, there was no going back. )))JohnnyR
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@karl_desch ,
I hear you, and, no, I don’t want to scramble your brain
But, preamps can make a huge difference in what you hear.
Cables, too.
For me,
I just trust the great information John Rutan gives me.
So, for the present, I will use my Atma’s and Ayre’s until I can score a Vandy amp.
With AQ cabling, too. (Read my other posts on William Tell and Thunder). Of course, you can also PM me.
After chasing this dream for over 40 years, I feel I should acquiesce to those with more experience.
It saves me time and money.
Bob |
@gdnrbob. Preamp! Oh no! I got to keep this search to amps and speakers. I would love to hear the Atma MA-1, the Ayre MX-R and the Aesthetix Atlas. All Amps with “A”s. Just not sure how I make that happen in Ann Arbor. |
@karl_desch ,
Great post.
The Vandy amps are on my dream list, but owning not only the Atma MA-1's, but the Ayre MX-R's, I feel truly blessed.
If at all possible, I would try to audition the Ayre KX-R preamp.
I have no experience with the ARC preamp you listened to, but my experience with the Ayre really floored me.
Bob |
I had the pleasure of being able to spend more time with Jon at Ultra Fidelis this week. This time the Kënto's were setup with the same electronics as my last session with the Quatro CT. The speakers were in similar but not identical positions as Jon spends a lot of blood sweat and tears to get the positions of each speaker right. The M5-HPA were again driving the loudspeakers.
The Këntos certainly look a lot more like the Quatros than the 5 Carbons they replace. They are slightly taller and have a wider base to accommodate the larger bass drivers compared to the Quatro. They have an integrated platform with three spikes to couple to the floor. Although not as clean from a design standpoint, they certainly look very well constructed and will not dominate a living room.
Although they look like the Quatros, I think they sound much more like the 7s. This was immediately apparent in the clean and controlled presentation. Imaging and bass integration was spectacular. My avatar friend David Bowie's voice was just hanging right there in the center of the room on several tracks from Hunky Dory. You could hear all the intonations in his singing and all the supporting instruments even when things got busy. Like the quatros, I felt I was hearing another 30% of the recording that I had been missing. Really kind of hallucinogenic!
These Këntos come across as more mellow than the Quatros. I had the urge to keep turning them up. I have no idea what decibels I was hitting but the pre level was comparable to the Quatro setup if not a little higher. Maybe these are less efficient speakers than the Quatro but it also may be the lower distortion coming out of the carbon/balsa midrange driver. This allows a listener to just increase the volume till you get the level of information you want. Never heard anything like this before. I felt like the Quatros got the information but also had more edge and energy in the midrange and upper frequencies relative to the Kënto, especially as the decibels got higher.
This demo was helpful to me as I was able to listen to how the M5-HPA perform on an even more transparent speaker like the Kënto. I have to say that I am very impressed with these monoblocks. Would have been interesting to sub in a different amp, like my Pass, to really hear what each adds (or doesn't add) to the sound. But I think the best way to do that is to get a pair of M5-HPA into my own system at home.
-Karl |
I just spent an enjoyable two weeks of evenings listening to the 7’s and 7’s and will look at my listening history and try to finish those impressions I have of the 7 amps. I just posted A lp photo of unboxing them on my Poverty Bay Sound page |
Just so y’all know, the ancient Labrador is on strike !!! |
repeluso,
I have been personally invited to Jim's home for some of the finest listening of great music that I have ever experienced. Jim's systems are beyond reproach and he sets them up to professional standards. He lets you sit in his personal "sweet spot" and lets you control the sound.
Talk about a great host, he has the best reds you will ever taste along with cheese, crackers and fine Italian dry sausage. I haven't known Jim all that long, but it seems like I have known him forever! What a Great guy! |
@rpeluso ,
+1, Jim (Tomic) is rare pleasure here on Audiogon.
And, I really have to find time to visit him and his systems.
Bob |
Yes and the invite stands !!! The Davis came about unexpectedly on a sojourn in wine country and stumbled across Davis tasting and barrel room on the river in Healdsburg- I claimed long lost family and they asked for my share of the back taxes ! We fought them to a draw by joking the Reds only wine club ! So the Syrah and Old Vine Zin is our House wine... fun
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@repulso - wow !!! Thank you. I printed this out and taped it to the fridge door and Dogs bowl in the hopes of improving my standing in the pack order !!!!! |
tomic601, although we do not know each other, and chances are we will never get to meet, I always look forward to your comments, there is never a hint of envy, jealousy, anger in them just a joy in sharing with others here. Quite admirable. I have even taken to purchasing wine from Davis, and I hope I have it right that you once invited someone/everyone over to listen to some great music, and you would supply the wine. If I have the right (or even if there is some error there), thank you! You are so non-judgemental, its a revelation in these times. |
@karl_desch ,
I have my Treo’s near the middle of the room (front to back), and near the side walls (left/right)-unfortunately the only place I could put them.
It was a significant improvement over having them near the rear/back wall. YMMV.
@mr_m .
Considering you get a decent price for the 2wq’s, It almost cuts the price in half.
And, for me, I sold a lot of stuff I bought, but wasn’t using, so my purchase is entirely funded by all the things I sold.
@tomic601 ,
Thanks for responding.
Not to rush judgement, but did you notice any significant change when you moved to the Vandy amps?
As some might know, I run Atmasphere in the winter ( to warm the living room), and Ayre in the summer to keep the AC from increasing my electric bill.
Though not a scientific or well done comparison, I will say the Ayre KX-R (non Twenty) sounds ’better’than my Atma MP-1.-Sorry Ralph.
Though not by much.
The Ayre seems to offer more detail and cleaner bass than the Atma.- What the Twenty upgrade will do, makes me nervous.
I was very surprised by this discovery as I think Ralph’s products to be some of the best out there. In fact, I hope to get a pair of his Class D monoblocks as soon as they are available.
Bob |
Thanks @stringreen. @stringreen. I ended up screwing the Isoacoustic footers into the feet of my equipment racks. I think getting the Quatros back near the side walls reduced the effect of the footers. I just have the speakers on little Herbies audio picks so I can position them without destroying the wood floors.
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I am lucky in that my house sits on a concrete slab....the floors are travertine tiles on the slab and don’t vibrate. I tried replacing the spikes of my 5A’s with similar gizmos....they absolutely ruined the sound....flattened the sonic picture, removed the bass, decreased the width. I quickly returned to the spikes. ...just shows to go ya.
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Hey Bob, that's a perfectly good idea going for the pair of Sub 3's. I talked to tomic601 about this and he seemed to think it's a great idea.
I want to do this also, but being retired creates some financial limitations.
Although it's not out of the range of possibility. It's a work in progress for me. lol. |
I think I need to go back to Ultra Fidelis and listen to the Kënto - M5 HPA. |
@repulso I think your post is spot on :-) much mutual respect and admiration between RM and RV, RM was a very early Vandersteen dealer on the East Coast. The RM-9 amp in its variants is an superb pairing - I have the RM-9 w RAM tubes EL-34... running the Treo CT...
Bob - I have been pondering your question... I have heard MX-R non twenty in a variety of rooms and systems over the years including them running the 7’s. I myself ran 5a with the VX-R and then 7’s ( Mk2) and ultimately upgraded to the Twenty. I have about 1k hours on the HPA-7 amps, which in some sense is unfair on two dimensions: price and optimization for load. I have very slowly been working on a review of sorts of the M7 amp, but never get to it because I am listening not writing..
I think your going to have to go have a listen....
all fun :-))) |
@mr_m ,
I have the same combo, but non CT Treo's.
I am going to upgrade to the new Sub 3's, as soon as I can sell my 2 wq's.
I think that will definitely put me in the Quatro level.
Like you, I am extremely happy, but the pursuit of 'better' sound keeps me changing things.
Pretty sick, eh?😜
Bob |
Agree about Ultra Fidelis. Jon is a terrific guy. Bought my Treo CT's from him in that very same room. That was five years ago, and I couldn't be happier with my purchase. I also augmented my Treo's with two Vandy 2Wq subs. I believe I'm getting near Quattro performance. IMO. |
@tomic601 ,
What is your opinion regarding the Vandy M5 amp and the Ayre MX-R?
Does Mr. V's amps offer a significant improvement?
Bob |
Locked in = very long fatigue free listening late into the night :-) enjoy the journey |
Had a great 3 hours at Ultra Fidelis today. My first time in the shop even though I grew up in Milwaukee. I listened to the Quatro CTs fed with the M5 HPA. Preamp was ARC Ref 6SE and digital was Qobuz streaming but I don’t recal the DAC. Cables by AQ including the new William Tell Zero.
Others have noted this but Jon has this room setup very nicely with a great focus on speaker placement. This is a basic size living room with some furnishings and no fancy absorption panels or bass traps. So very real living room.
The sound was just stunning. Locked in imaging, plenty of meat on the bone and very much showing me what was in the recording. Excellent musical flow and dynamics even at higher dBs. So much information coming at you. I learned a lot about what this amp/speaker combination can do when properly set up in a real world room. Got some great ideas about how to alter my current setup and things to try before pulling the trigger on new speakers or amps. I know I would be very happy if I could get my stereo to sound as good as Jon’s setup.
I’m sure other Vandersteen users know what I mean when you get the speakers locked in. It was fun! |
@karl_desch
Your welcome. Yes, my room is sort of large, 33 feet deep x 19 feet wide. I still think I will be shoehorning those mammoth T1s into the room. Vandersteens are great speakers and I am sure that certain models in the series has appealed to you. That’s what great about this hobby; there’s something for everyone. Sharing your experiences and listening impressions for others to use for there research and analysis when on the same journey. Way back when Vandersteens where on my list but I went in other directions. Goof luck.
Audioquest4life
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@audioquest4life Thanks for that perspective. Congrats on your impending 1.5s. You must have a nice big listening room. In my living room, I think I could shoehorn a T3 and remain married. John suggested that the T3 was similar in its sound just scaled down.
I’m still a Vandy fan and very much looking forward to listening today (mask on). Will definitely take my time and enjoy the possibilities. |
@karl_desch
I want to share with you my experiences when I was looking for my next speaker. I was also there (Classic Audio Loudspeakers) on the 27th. Your right, the T1.5s are superb in bass, piano, and voicing. The stereo imaging is absolutely incredible as well. My T1.5s get delivered next Friday. Prior to me deciding on the t1.5a, I owned B&W 800s, auditioned Legacy Aeris, Klipschorn, Avant-Garde Duo’s, Spatial Audio X5s, Magnepan 3.6 and 20s, Klipsch Jubilees with custom DSP crossovers, B&W 800 series diamond, and many more that I forget.
At the end of the day, your selection is obviously based on your listening tastes and synergy with your equipment.
My selection criteria was for a speaker that had better efficiency, more dynamics at lower volume, and better and more robust bass. My 800s provided me with great voicing and piano, but it was when I wanted to play louder that the power inefficiency’s shined. Naturally, many speakers out there can be dynamic either as a horn, DSP and powered bass, or a hybrid. I love the efficiency of horns, but felt that the ones I listened to lacked something organic sounding that I had with the B&W 800s I owned. The powered bass in the Legacies and the Duos seem to give me the heft in the lower bass regions, except they both use DSP controlled bass power amplification. I have a pretty much an all analog signal path from vinyl through all tube phono and preamp, and large 300 watt mono tube amps from McIntosh. When I heard the t1.5 at CAF, I was floored by the sheer quality in the music and how easily bass and vocals were presented. I was sold on the spot after having heard all of what I mentioned above. I knew this was what I was looking for as soon as I heard them. After listening to them at Classic Audio this past weekend, it only made me more anxious in waiting for mine to be delivered. I have been looking and researching my next upgrade for the last two years, so take your time and happy listening. You will know what is right for you as soon as you hear it.
Ciao,
Audioquestlife |
I had a great time listening to the T1.5s driven by Atma-sphere Novacrons a couple nights ago at Classic Audio Loudspeakers. Man those things are huge! The sound was just totally effortless at all frequencies. Never listened to a stereo that gets piano and upright bass so right. Very alive sound. I think this was mainly the field coil speaker but I’m sure the Atma-sphere amps were also a major contributor.
Today I will audition the M5-HPA at Ultra fidelis in Milwaukee. |
Maybe a little off-base, but I am running my Vandy 5As with a Music Reference RM9 SE, with a Music Reference pre. I love this combo. |
