Vandersteen updates and amplifiers

They really do seem made for each other. To be more specific, I have noticed in the past that it would take higher listening levels to get the speakers to sound balanced across frequencies.  Like the speakers were a bit "closed in" sounding with former amplifiers.  The M5-HPA make the speakers sound correct at lower and higher volumes. 

I have had the pleasure of having the M5-HPA and the new AQ cabling in my system at home for a couple weeks now.  I am really enjoying the new presentation which has improved imaging, soundstage depth, micro detail and a sense of space in the recordings. The sound is more musical, colorful and communicative.  I can't recommend more for Vandy owners with powered subs to: Get your speakers setup in your room optimally, think about your current cabling and consider the M5-HPAs for amplification.   

I’ll let other Vandersteen users chime here as well.  Upper level Vandersteen’s have powered subwoofer sections and roll off bass below 100 Hz before the power amp. This combined with a nominal impedance of 8 and no nasty phase angles makes them relatively easy to drive.  However they are not efficient speakers like the Classic Audio.  I think owner’s generally have good luck with higher powered tubes like Audio Research or solid state.  I have used Pass Labs and older Threshold amps on the Vandersteens that I’ve owned. More recently Vandersteen has designed their own monoblock amps that use bipolar output transistors and no global negative feedback.

Thanks Erik. I would surely benefit from both a real acoustics eval and a Vandersteen setup expert. I have employed real traps (absorbers)  in places that seem to help, like first reflection points and front corners.  But I certainly have peaks and nulls in the low frequencies.

Thanks @tomic601 and @gdnrbob. Had a good talk with John Rutan today and I’m trying out a couple things. He encouraged speaker placement off the Gaia and on thick granite blocks given the wooden floor. Also recommended trying the speakers closer to the front wall and sides. This was unexpected but maybe this will position the speakers on a more stable part of the floor?

My TT is on a solidsteel with a Vibraplane isolating the table. Might try the Gaia screwed into the solidsteel racks if I like them off the speakers better.
Definitely want to try both the CT version and the M5 HPA in my system. Probably too much $$$ to change both at once... Nice short speaker cables and mono blocks might be an advantage over my longer shotgun biwired Kimber 12TC.

@tomstruck.  Thanks for the thought on Aesthetix. A good friend has one of their integrated and loves it.  As far as tubes go, I am not opposed as long as it sounds right!  I used to have a BAT VK75 SE, but never on the Quatro. Another pal is going to bring his Marantz 8b around soon.  I’ll report on how the Quatro likes vintage Marantz.

He isn’t actually my dealer!  He was just nice enough to think about my room and system with me.  I blame you guys for spreading the lore of his zen master abilities.

Noted an interesting, but I guess not surprising, change in the way the Quatros present music with some dramatic positioning changes.  I had been using the golden ratio method to position the Quatros out into my room.  They were a couple feet from the side wall and about 5 feet from the front wall.  This position really optimized the imaging that these speakers are capable of at the expense of tonality and bass response. On John's suggestion, I removed the front corner bass traps and got the speakers far back into the front corners. Instead of the triangle being 8' apart and 11 from the listening position, they are now 10.5 apart and 13' from the listening position. In this position, the bass is much more powerful but still articulate.  Upright bass playing with more presence and resonance like a real bass. Improved tonality across the spectrum. Also the overall soundstage has gotten more enormous which is great for a lot of recordings but weird for some small group recordings. I am working on positioning that will get back some of the precise imaging that is now missing.  Trying to find the correct balance.  

@audioconnection Ive got the Vandertones and will measure things out. Thanks for the advice on Marantz 8.

@gdnrbob. I have always wanted to hear Atma-spheres.  I am planning a trip up to Brightonto listen to some Classic Audio Loudspeakers. Should be fun.

@tomic601 beautiful system.

Just an update.  I hooked up a pristine old Marantz 8 (not 8b) and swapped out the Pass XA 30.5.  I had to do some XLR to RCA conversions in order to use the amp with my current M5-HP crossover. I used the multimeter measurements to get the appropriate voltage drop at 100 Hz.  JohhnyR @audioconnection has described the method in these forums in the past. The Marantz 8 needs a good hour to warm up and start sounding balanced. This is a very easy to listen to amplifier and I can totally see why people have described it as musical.  It has tones of tone and individual instruments are presented with more body and presence than I remember hearing with the Pass. The highs are extended enough without ever sounding etched. The bass is definitely different and a touch slower than with the Pass. But extended and distinct in a very musical way. The amp had some trouble when pressed into high volume service where the normally distinct and clear images get slightly jumbled. But this was rare.

Overall, although I don't think this is the answer for my system, I would really like to explore tube amplifier options now.  I am looking for suggestions for mono blocks that accept balanced inputs (and are preferably actually balanced amps). I currently use a 25ft run of XLR cables between the Pass XP-22 pre and the XA 30.5. Power doesn't have to be super high.

Atma-sphere M60 or Novacron?
BAT VK 150SE?
Quicksilver V4? (not balanced correct?)
Doshi V3.0?

Anyone with experience driving Vandersteen with tubed power amps? I still want to hear what the newer Vandersteen M5-HPA sound like too.

@joey54. Thanks, I saw that they do this for a charge, but I'm also assuming that this is a transformer coupled converter, not balanced circuitry throughout.  What did you move to in the Aesthetix line and what did that change do for you soundwise?

@audioquest4life Thanks for that perspective.  Congrats on your impending 1.5s.  You must have a nice big listening room. In my living room, I think I could shoehorn a T3 and remain married.  John suggested that the T3 was similar in its sound just scaled down.  
I’m still a Vandy fan and very much looking forward to listening today (mask on). Will definitely take my time and enjoy the possibilities.

I had a great time listening to the T1.5s driven by Atma-sphere Novacrons a couple nights ago at Classic Audio Loudspeakers. Man those things are huge!  The sound was just totally effortless at all frequencies.  Never listened to a stereo that gets piano and upright bass so right.  Very alive sound. I think this was mainly the field coil speaker but I’m sure the Atma-sphere amps were also a major contributor.

Today I will audition the M5-HPA at Ultra fidelis in Milwaukee.  

Had a great 3 hours at Ultra Fidelis today.  My first time in the shop even though I grew up in Milwaukee.  I listened to the Quatro CTs fed with the M5 HPA.  Preamp was ARC Ref 6SE and digital was Qobuz streaming but I don’t recal the DAC. Cables by AQ including the new William Tell Zero. 
Others have noted this but Jon has this room setup very nicely with a great focus on speaker placement.  This is a basic size living room with some furnishings and no fancy absorption panels or bass traps.  So very real living room.  
The sound was just stunning.   Locked in imaging, plenty of meat on the bone and very much showing me what was in the recording.  Excellent musical flow and dynamics even at higher dBs.  So much information coming at you. I learned a lot about what this amp/speaker combination can do when properly set up in a real world room.  Got some great ideas about how to alter my current setup and things to try before pulling the trigger on new speakers or amps.  I know I would be very happy if I could get my stereo to sound as good as Jon’s setup.  
I’m sure other Vandersteen users know what I mean when you get the speakers locked in.  It was fun!

I think I need to go back to Ultra Fidelis and listen to the Kënto - M5 HPA.

Thanks @stringreen. @stringreen. I ended up screwing the Isoacoustic footers into the feet of my equipment racks.  I think getting the Quatros back near the side walls reduced the effect of the footers.  I just have the speakers on little Herbies audio picks so I can position them without destroying the wood floors.

I had the pleasure of being able to spend more time with Jon at Ultra Fidelis this week.  This time the Kënto's were setup with the same electronics as my last session with the Quatro CT. The speakers were in similar but not identical positions as Jon spends a lot of blood sweat and tears to get the positions of each speaker right. The M5-HPA were again driving the loudspeakers.

The Këntos certainly look a lot more like the Quatros than the 5 Carbons they replace. They are slightly taller and have a wider base to accommodate the larger bass drivers compared to the Quatro.  They have an integrated platform with three spikes to couple to the floor. Although not as clean from a design standpoint, they certainly look very well constructed and will not dominate a living room.

Although they look like the Quatros, I think they sound much more like the 7s.  This was immediately apparent in the clean and controlled presentation. Imaging and bass integration was spectacular. My avatar friend David Bowie's voice was just hanging right there in the center of the room on several tracks from Hunky Dory. You could hear all the intonations in his singing and all the supporting instruments even when things got busy. Like the quatros, I felt I was hearing another 30% of the recording that I had been missing. Really kind of hallucinogenic!  

These Këntos come across as more mellow than the Quatros.  I had the urge to keep turning them up.  I have no idea what decibels I was hitting but the pre level was comparable to the Quatro setup if not a little higher.  Maybe these are less efficient speakers than the Quatro but it also may be the lower distortion coming out of the carbon/balsa midrange driver.  This allows a listener to just increase the volume till you get the level of information you want.  Never heard anything like this before. I felt like the Quatros got the information but also had more edge and energy in the midrange and upper frequencies relative to the Kënto, especially as the decibels got higher.

This demo was helpful to me as I was able to listen to how the M5-HPA perform on an even more transparent speaker like the Kënto.  I have to say that I am very impressed with these monoblocks. Would have been interesting to sub in a different amp, like my Pass, to really hear what each adds (or doesn't add) to the sound. But I think the best way to do that is to get a pair of M5-HPA into my own system at home.  

-Karl

@gdnrbob.  Preamp!  Oh no!  I got to keep this search to amps and speakers.  I would love to hear the Atma MA-1, the Ayre MX-R and the Aesthetix Atlas. All Amps with “A”s. Just not sure how I make that happen in Ann Arbor.

I have heard great things from both John R and Jon S about the William Tell and Robin Hood speaker cables.  Seems like a big leap forward for Audioquest.  I currently use Kimber 12TC shotgun Biwire which neither of the Jons likes! Something about a midrange suckout... I am happy to try a nice short run of these AQ speaker cables when I convert to monoblocks.  I’ll also be auditioning some AQ Water XLR for my 30ft run between preamp and amp. See if I can hear the diff between that and the Mogami XLR currently in place.  
I am interested in your experience too @gdnrbob!  I’ll read about the William Tell and Thunder power cables too.  Oh and the Niagara 3000/5000....those were also involved in my Ultra Fidelis auditions.

@pilrem. Thanks for the endorsement of Jon too!

I’m sure it makes a difference.  Right now I’m at “sounds great” but want to get to “sounds amazing” like I heard at Ultra Fidelis with both the Quatro and the Kënto.

Just an update.  I decided I liked best what I heard at Ultra Fidelis. I ordered the Vandersteen M5-HPA and William Tell Zero/Bass cables. Very excited to see what the change does for my system. Thanks to both Jon Spelt, @audioconnection and all of you for your advice.  

@unsound. I do understand that sentiment. Having owned Vandersteen 1c, 2ci and other value leaders in the Vandersteen line, and can say that while the prices have grown in the higher end line, the sound quality does seem to keep pace with the price increases.  This makes the Treo/Quatro/Kënto competitive with even higher priced speakers.  
The amps are pricey at ~16,000 a pair.  I was comparing them to Ayre monoblocks and Pass Labs monos that were around the same price.  The dealer I bought them from also sells Audio Research as well and might tell you that the M5’s outperform the Ref 160 monos when paired with Quatro or Kënto speakers.

Jeez! I sound like a Vandersteen dealer! It would be amazing if Vandersteen could sell something like the M5-HPAs for around 3 or 4K which would make them more competitive with lots of amplifiers and more of a value proposition.  But the M5 has relative value given their sound quality and absolutely overengineered design.  That ultimately made the M5s the right choice for me compared to other upgrades from my Pass XA30.5.

@audioconnection The amps are a pleasure to use. They continue to surprise me with their natural presentation and increased resolution compared to my previous amp (XA30.5). Over the weeks they are becoming slightly more extended in the high frequencies but never harsh or analytical. All this is also in context of new speaker cables (AQ William Tell Zero and Bass biwire) new power cables (AQ Hurricane and Thunder) and a new 10M interconnect (AQ Earth XLR). Very impressed with how the old Quatro Woods are delivering it all in their new positions in the room.

@ctsooner Nice!  Did you listen to the Kento or the Quatro?