IMO I would look for a used pair of 5As. I got mine for $5K and while I am not a big Vandersteen fan boy, for that price they were hard to beat. I also build my own components so that had a much bigger impact on the sound then when I have heard them at a dealers showroom.
I had the 3s and they just did not do it for me at the time. Overall very nice but not the same impact on the sound as the model 5s can be.
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@patrickdowns
I have definitely put some recordings ( I agree on the 80’s engineering at times!) on the background/ car not list!
I fully missed pointing out a , to me , big plus of the benchmark stuff which is the totally quiet sound floor. Dead silence. One of those details that I don’t think you understand until you experience it. I really appreciate it with vocals with little to no backing and other music where the lack of sound is a crucial component.
The more I think about it the Treo’s almost always get recommended to have subs by everyone who is lucky enough to have them which pushes me towards the saving longer and just jumping to Quattros...
But like you I rarely switch- tend to settle in and enjoy vs chasing tweaks.
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zimickGot the dac first as the amp was back ordered and it was a solid gain to me and the amp in unison made a huge leap in my system. Detail, soundstage, depth... and no harshness or too neutral/ dry sounds. That is what I have read widely (reviews and comments) on the Benchmark. I totally agree with you about "Yes, if the recording is crap then that is magnified, just like it should be in my opinion." I’m not afraid of highly resolving, accurate gear, even if it makes some tracks or records (badly recorded) hard to listen to or to be jettisoned. There’s some 80s music where the recording engineers and producers must have been totally stoned. Ouch! I guess the only way to find out if the Benchmarks are a good match for my ears is to do a trial. I’m glad to read that their cables are good and reasonably priced. Their preamp with headphone stage is getting rave reviews among headphone fans, and I use cans a lot (my wife doesn’t like it loud, so speakers go idle or low when she’s home, all too often). I’m like you—Vandersteen guy for a long time. I’ve heard many other speakers, but fortunately (for my wallet and my marriage, which is redundant!) I don’t get the itch to change major components every year or three. If I won the lotto, it would be a different story and I’d probably drive myself half crazy seeking "perfection". As it is, I have a dear friend who has OCD and more money than I, and he drives me crazy watching him seeking perfection. He has Quatro CTs (he moved up from 3a Sigs) which I implored him to get and he LOVES them. The Treo CT might be the next best thing if you can live without the bass extension. I love them. Or do it in stages ... Treos and then add subs later? One of the guys who works at "my" Vandy dealer just got Treos because he already had Vandy subwoofers, and he’s very happy with that combo. Cheers PD |
jackd Roger that on Klaus! re: If you liked the sound signature of your McCormick and now Odyssey you will find the Benchmark to be completely different. That is the big question! Benchmark have a 30 day home trial so I think it’s worth experimenting maybe. I am not wedded to my previous amps’ "sound" I guess. Wish I had the budget to experiment with other brands and combinations and not break the bank. I have an obsession with the LTA zOTL preamp (tube) that I would like to try with a good solid state amp too. |
Not surprised that Klaus is not in favor of building fully balanced amps as it would double the cost but he has offered the XLR inputs on the Stratos case for over 20 years for people that want to have the option of both. I suspect that if you just tell him that's what you want to do he will give in and do it. Much of Klaus' outlook comes from his mentor, Rolf, of Symphonic Line. |
Hi jackdFrom Peter Madnick, an email reply when I asked him if the DDP-1 is fully balanced: "DDP-1 is fully balanced." I have spoken to Klaus Bunge specifically about moving up to the Stratos case to get balanced connections, and he scoffed. Strongly harumphed that he’s not a fan of balanced. I can’t remember why and didn’t debate it (because I’m not qualified!). I have friends who prefer balanced, especially when using monoblocks. Benchmark only offers balanced inputs on their fine amp, so they’ve staked out their position (they also scoff at many super expensive cables, and theirs are a bargain and get good reviews, iirc). The varying opinions among talented builders and designers is interesting. Cheers. |
@patrickdowns
If your Audio Alchemy is not truly balanced but just a single ended design with a pair of XLR outputs, as it appears, then you are not really gaining anything by swapping to a balanced amp other than a cable change. You also have the option of having Klaus swap the guts of your Kismet amp to a Stratos case which does have "balanced" inputs. |
@patrickdowns - my selection process was much less thought out than yours.
I had a Krell Preamp and an Adcom 5800 amp paired with my 3a’s for twenty plus years with really no changes. I was definitely satisfied but figured that over twenty years that , like in everything technical, the price to performance metric had shifted to the more for less.
I started looking and reading reviews and the Benchmark , especially the amp, jumped out of the pack to me as a value.
An amp that cost 3k was being lumped into “ one of the best” “ reference” level with other unlimited budget amps. The negative that people repeatedly bring up is that the amp and dac ( dac used as my dac and control unit) is that they are “ neutral”.
That sounded good to me as I like my listening to sound real and if that is a bit raw balanced with detail and life then that’s good to me.
Got the dac first as the amp was back ordered and it was a solid gain to me and the amp in unison made a huge leap in my system. Detail, soundstage, depth... and no harshness or too neutral/ dry sounds.
Yes, if the recording is crap then that is magnified, just like it should be in my opinion.
Probably have not answered your question but I am very happy with my benchmark stuff including their balanced cables and speaker wires.
As a slight aside I have a set of their balanced connectors, 25 feet and super inexpensive. I am prettying up my listening room and wanted to go a bit longer with the interconnects so did a ton of “ research” and bought some well thought of cables that cost many multiples of the benchmark ones. I have done a few A to B swaps and maybe, maybe I hear the tiniest soundstage difference with the lower register stuff. Maybe.
as a FYI my 3’s are latest spec, all new intervals per Richard. |
If you liked the sound signature of your McCormick and now Odyssey you will find the Benchmark to be completely different. I owned three different Vandersteen models from 1998 to 2015 with the last being Treo CT's. Went through quite a few brands of amps and to me found the Odyssey's and Belles to be the best match to my ears. |
I have a new pair of 2CE SigIII’s that replaced a 25 y/o pair of 2CEs. I really wanted Treo CTs but couldn’t afford new ones (I hemmed and hawed over a 1 y/o mint pair for $6000 on A’gon, and they sold ... bummer). I still wonder if I screwed up, BUT, I do love the bass extension of the 2CE vs the Treo (w/o subs). I auditioned both together at length, and the Treo CT really is special, but the 2CE wasn’t chopped liver in doing A-B testing. Not at all. If I got Treo’s I fear I’d miss the bass, then might add a subwoofer or two, and then wonder why I didn’t just get the Quatro CTs which I def can’t afford! Lust though. Vandersteen, I just can’t quit you. My dealer says they think the newest 2CE SigIII is better than the 3A now, and the latter probably won’t be updated again. Don’t we all envy tomic601 ... in a good way?! Tomic, I am in Seattle and when we finally get COVID under control I’d love to hear your V-7’s! I am on the Olympic Peninsula, if you’re ever out here. My system is modest though... you won’t be awed but I do the best I can on a beer budget :) ---->> QUESTION, re amps for Vandersteen: I ran a McCormack DNA-1 Deluxe for decades (I don’t change up my system too often until lately), and it died. I made a mistake by not having Steve Mc rebuild it to his latest and greatest which is said to be superb (he’s working with David Berning now, on special projects, and Berning’s ZOTL tube designs have made him a legend). Anywho, I had an Odyssey Audio Khartago++ built (and since upgraded to the top Kismet level) by Klaus Bunge. His amps get a top affordable recc from AbSound, and so far I am fairly happy but wondering if I can do better. So... I am thinking of the Benchmark AHB2 amp, which many reviews rave about, or some sort of affordable monoblocks like Schiit (Odyssey does them too). The Benchmark is apparently very neutral (too much for some?) https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/benchmark-ahb2-amplifier/ The Benchmark also uses Neutrik amp cable attachment along with a very tight, hard to use binding post. Non-standard, PITA for bi-wires? My DAC/preamp (Audio Alchemy DDP-1) has balanced connections, and so does the Benchmark while my Odyssey does not. I’d like to be able to go balanced. zimickI know Ayre is a good match for Vandys but out of my price range. I thought about Pass Labs too. I am also intrigued by the Linear Tube Audio integrateds, though I have never had tubes. Their most powerful amp is 40WPC (conservative) so I wonder if it’s beefy enough? It gets superb reviews and a bonus is the world-class headphone stage built-in. https://www.lineartubeaudio.com/integrated-amplifiers I also thought about pairing the LTA preamp with a SS amp to get the best of both worlds. ANYONE have sage advice on amp pairings for Vandersteens? I would sincerely appreciate it! Thanks. PD |
Glissando,
I use a contact cleaner now. Got suggested it 20+ years ago for two way radio contacts and was astonished at the improvement so have used it on my audio gear but probably not often enough.
Z |
The purpose of the gas tight crimp is to prevent oxidation.
I should add that I clean the Banana plugs with an anti-oxidant, electronics contact cleaner every time I switch out amps and or speakers. That's every couple of weeks.
I use the contact cleaner on tube sockets too. Something about spending $1K to re-tube the Music Reference RM-9 compelled me to start that years ago.
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Tomic601,
thanks for the input/ reinforcement!
z |
A gas tight spade is best, see Vandersteen model 7
i am running a shotgun bi-wire TC-12 on the TREO CT ( Kimber makes the spademaster but you have to tweak to fit Vandersteen ) and I run the silver Audioquest ( essentially Wild Blue Yonder ) with the 7’s.
the Kimber is good wire at a reasonable $$$ |
Glissando,
I will look into the kimber kable’s
I do have the speakons with spades on other end with the benchmark cables.
Will let you know if I get cables and bi amp.
huge thanks for the help.
cheers
Z |
@zimick I’m using Kimber Kable 8TC with banana plugs on both ends. They’re highly reviewed and recommended as one of the best neutral cables available. I’ve had them for a few years and in using them with a wide range of systems I have felt they simply worked without adding color or never have been a limitation. I have a couple of Audioquest’s pricier speaker cables but have found they weren’t neutral so stopped using them.
Bi-amping the Signature 3A really improved bass and lower mids in my experience. Then fine tuning the placement became easier and at the same time more significant.
I’ve used a number of ’Pro’ sound reinforcement and monitoring systems with the Speakon connecters that Benchmark offers with their Canare cables. While I think they have their benefits I question how much they matter when they’re only used on one end of the cable. I have planned on getting a set of the Benchmark cable to compare but I’d have to have them custom terminate them to spade lugs on one end or leave them bare for me to that myself. I’ll do that when I get the Vandersteen VLR CTs.
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glissando, I have, fleetingly, thought about bi amping but had no reference or experience with it to give it serious thought.
But... now it’s on my radar I’ll look into it.
It is so hard to find the “ right” upgrade that reveals the biggest improvement in a balance with expenditure!
Input from folks like you really help as you have experience with very similar setups/ equipment.
I am happy with my sound now and tend to settle into a setup for awhile... not much of a tweak chaser but did the switch to benchmark stuff last year the same time I did latest upgrades to 3a’s. All big gains for me and now I wonder if there is an obtainable step up that is pretty straightforward.
Bi amping could be good.
Question- I currently have the benchmark speaker wires as it was an easy way to go at the time. What wires do you use? Or recommend? It sounds like with your different amp that you are more of an experimenter than I am so might have some valued opinion.
The audioquest rocket 44/88 have been recommended to me by a Vandersteen dealer....
thank you for the input!
Z
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@zimick Have you considered buying another Benchmark amp and bi-amping the Signature 3As ?
Way back when Richard first updated the 3As to ’Signature’ I sent mine in for the update and in the process had a conversation with Richard about bi-wiring / bi-amping. As I recall he recommended 100 hours to break in the new components from the update. So I did that and then enjoyed them for another 100 hours or more before I went to bi-amping. It was a HUGE improvement !
Back then I ran a pair of Counterpoint SA-220s vertically bi-amping. I’ll never forget how much I loved that sound !
I have the Threshold Stasis 3, a Pathos Acoustic, the SA-220, some Quicksilver monos and a Music Reference RM-9 here but I’m listening to the full Benchmark system (DAC3B, HPA4 and AHB2) right now.
They all have their own special sound, not a bad amp in the bunch for the Vandersteens but if you like your Benchmark adding a second one is highly recommended !
I’m waiting for the air to clear, literally, before I drive down to Sunny’s and buy a pair of the Vandersteen VLR CT. I’m in too small a space for the 3s but I imagine the VLR CTs are pretty special.
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Well he is whacking it big time !!!! No bank accounts behind the pearly gates, or so I imagine |
The great story regarding this friend is that he is making up for lost time. He had a truly junk bottom scraping ( he would concur) cheap stereo for about 40 years as he worked in tech sector in CA. Retired, left the insanity and took a bit of bankroll to in one move put together a dream system. Good on him.
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Yes the Kento has an even better cabinet, new bass drivers in a balanced force configuration ( opposition) AND model 7 midrange w CF skins on the patented balsa core. IF I upgrade the Treo it would be to Kento. I have heard them paired w VPI, Lyra Delos, McIntosh pre and Vandys M5 amp - outstanding soundstage and clarity in Harrow and the Harvest
fortunate friend You have Doug !!!
best to you !! Enjoy the music
jim |
I know a guy who just went from the 5's to the Kento, very pleased.
The 3's will be soft, mushy compared to the newer models. Ok, don't like the word "mushy", try "chewy". ;)
Done anything with cables? If not, you need to, at least if you're serious.
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Ya man ! For sure :-) Long Beach is just a hop, skip and a jump - I spent many moons there on the C-17 and other nearby fun.
i assume you have the soundanchors on the 3A and have them biwire ? An external biwire is best. You can also download ( free ) vandertones and see what is going on w room and bass. Enjoy the music :-))))
jim |
Tomic601,
thanks for the input.
pretty sure I’m sticking w the 3’s at least till spring.
they definitely punch above their weight, at least in my opinion!
and if I get back out to Long Beach for work I’ll take you up on your offer.
cheers
z |
Also, try going backwards after living with the More Pistonic triwoven or ultra pistonic carbon drivers and low coloration cabinet.....
as always, your actual mileage May vary |
BTW my brother has my 3:a signature with a Naim/Lampizator/ARC front end Driven by a big Threshold - super sweet sound. |
I have owned them both along w 5a and the 7’s. ( still own the Treo CT and the 7’s - you can see both setups as well as others in the vintage room. The Treo CT has a better tweeter, midrange and super importantly cabinet than the “ sock “ series which offer stunning value for $$. They are much more pistonic with greatly reduced cabinet coloration and should be carefully level matched - easy to sell the louder speaker. The 5a has the killer push pull sub and if setup correctly is a wayyyyyyy better speaker than the 3a ( as it should be ) however a 5a pulled to far out into a room will lack the slam of a 3a within 2-2.5’ of the rear wall due to the acoustic coupler. You have one of the absolute best speakers on planet, enjoy the music. Stop by for a listen IF u get to Seattle or Carlsbad sometime.
best to you
jim |
I have owned them both matched with a pair of 2WQ's and I preferred the 3A Sigs also. The Treo's have a different character to my ears than the 3A and 2CE Sigs. |
I prefer the 3As myself. The feel more open, less boxy and play deeper. I bought my first ones even over the 5As in the early 2000s. |
