Charles,
I understand and you make some very good points.The post about expression,in particular.
best regards |
Hi ,
Sirspeedy, that last question was`nt specifically for you but was asked in general. Some people get quite defensive and upset if others don`t agree with their impressions of a component. |
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"Oh,I forgot this is audio"
Sirspeedy, that`s the beauty of audio IMO.There`re so many choices in components and ways to combine and match them. It really is an art form and a very personal means of expression to be able to assemble a audio system that matches your objective for music reproduction in your home.
It can`t be anything but satisfying one`s own preferences.
If you absolutely love a particular component then why would it matter at all if some else dislikes it? |
Charles,yes you are correct.No record needed to be set straight here.I admit this is only my(and a few other folks')opinion.No harm meant at all,as there are many wonderful designs.
Still,in my 40 years in the hobby no speaker had impressed me as much(I "had" big Avalons set up in a dedicated room,btw)as the Mini II.A small footprint,amazing aesthetics,incredible top to bottom performance,all in a sealed design that did not color the bass,or any other part of the sonic landscape.Could please the "wife" too!What's not to like?
Oh,I forgot this is audio! -:) |
Sirspeedy,
Your 2 cents is as welcome as anyone else. I don`t see any 'record' that needs to be set straight. Your post is full of passion and conviction but like all the posts here is simply an opinion. As has been said several times, some will love this speaker and others won`t, plain fact.
This is is true for any brand of component available, Magico is no different.Those who enjoy them will continue to do so.
Regards, |
No disrespect to anyone in particular.......but....I find it absolutely laughable that the Magico Mini II can be weak in virtually "any" area,if set up in a good room,with proper matching equipment!.....and this ain't so easy,which is one reason why some folks might 'think' it has weaknesses.this speaker has one weakness,which is...."it is No longer available"!.....Which computes(to me) as a CLASSIC!!
Btw,I am not even in the hobby any longer,as I am attempting to become a legitimate musician on 2 instruments(more of a struggle than anything 'audio') -:)But I do know good sound!
With correct room placement(and a properly matched room dimension....often overlooked)this design is ruler flat,and when we (a good sized group of serious hobbyists/former reviewers) often compared a slew of reference Lp's(from original RCA's to original pressing Mercury,Decca,Emi etc) on this speaker which had an uncanny ability to sound "real"......Both in tone and dynamics(and I mean DYNAMIC).
Measured freq was ruler flat down to the high twenties(yes,we measure this,and we felt the "still superb room" was slightly limiting it going down even further)....And if that is not good enough for some folks,you are in a kidding yourself(no disrespect,btw)...
Even on mid 1990's digital Cd's the room SHOOK....Big Time!
I still believe it's tweeter is SOTA!I've heard few designs(after 40 years in the hobby)that can play as dynamically,and "hold" it's 'correct' harmonic accuracy/pitch accuracy as well as the Magico Mini II....No easy feat!....I remember one day,hearing a sota NOLA Grand Reference set-up,in NYC, a few hours before hearing a Mini II set up,and I got tired of the Nola Grand(mega system,btw) after 45 minutes.The MINI II,I could have(and did) listen to all night!
As for tonality,it happens to have very few peers....Sorry if this ruffles anyone's feathers,but I've heard this design on quite a few occassions,and helped set them up too.
Btw,I don't own a Magico product,but had many,many years in the hobby and heard a load of superb systems(many in the homes of N.Y. based reviewers,from TAS to Stereophile to web-journalists' homes).
I had heard EBM's system a few times in the past,and can say with confidence.......He's got "IT" right!it does not get much better,IMO!That was awhile ago,but I have no doubts it is still true.
I'd gone to other "serious/reviewers'" homes in the same day as hearing the EBM system(consisting of 'perfectly" driven Mini's....not to mention a music collection to die for,both digital and analog)and always left thinking it did not get "meaningfully better" than what EBM was putting forth.
I am in no way friends with anyone on this forum,and only check in on rare occassions,but sometimes one needs to attempt to set the record straight!
I like Rockport products btw(sheesh the table was amazing,in one system i'd heard it in)but I don't think the speakers9though superb0 will occupy the same exalted space as the "original" and "amazing' Magico Mini II!!
Only my 2 cents worth,but I'll stick to it! |
Knghifi...the guys at Goodwins are very professional and recognize that there will be many tire kickers who come in to audition equipment who will then shop the business around. They get it and recognize the encroaching competition from the internet, Agon, etc...Because they get it, they also understand that to differentiate themselves and win the business, they go above and beyond the call of duty in servicing clients because that is what lands them the sale vs. a competing channel. I have been dealing with Paul, Al, and Jim there for many years and they all recognize the competitive landscape and what they have to do to win (they will compete within reason on price but where they try to differentiate is on service - pre- and after-sale service). As for the OP going to Goodwins to listen to both Rockports and Magicos to compare the speakers of interest to him, it sounds like he does not have local options, in which case, Goodwins can actually sell him the speaker of his choice since he does not apparently have local dealers who carry either line, otherwise he would have listened to the speakers locally. So I see no issue with the OP using up their time to audition especially if they have a fair chance of selling to him if indeed he does not have any local dealers. My 2c. Best wishes. |
Fiddler, the question is intent. Actually I don't waste people's time unless I'm serious in a purchase whether it's a car, shoes ... I respect their business and guess I'm in the minority. |
Everytime I go in a store I buy something just to be sure I am not wasting anyone's time. I really have a lot of stuff. |
Knghifi,
Have you ever test driven an automobile that you didn't buy, tried on suits or pairs of shoes you didn't buy, spent a realtors time looking at houses and didn't buy, etc. Every day thousands of retail salespeople and their stores spend lots of time with people who don't buy. It's called shopping!
That's retail, plain and simple. People kick tires in all manner of retail businesses - it's just the nature of the beast. Why should a hifi retailer be any different.
If Goodwin's is opposed to people listening to their products and not buying, then they need to get into another line of work. I realize you aren't speaking for them and they may be entirely welcoming of anyone going for a test drive in their store, but I find your reaction fascinating. |
01-04-12: Soix
Goodwins does it right. If you're upfront with them that you probably will buy used or even not at all I wouldn't be surprised if they were happy to accomodate you as long as it's not during a particularly busy time. That way you get to listen but don't potentially take away resources from other customers who may give them business.
Soix (Threads | Answers | This Thread) You gotta be kidding, right? It's tough enough to run a business with HUGE overheads and competing with the internet, you're going to allow people to use your resources and purchase elsewhere for a lower price? I bet you don't own or run a business?? |
Goodwins does it right. If you're upfront with them that you probably will buy used or even not at all I wouldn't be surprised if they were happy to accomodate you as long as it's not during a particularly busy time. That way you get to listen but don't potentially take away resources from other customers who may give them business. |
"You should not compare the speakers at Goodwins unless you plan to make a purchase from them. Otherwise, it's not fair to them."
Why is that? |
The fact that the experiences with Magico vary so much under different conditions and setups simply show how good this speaker is. |
You should not compare the speakers at Goodwins unless you plan to make a purchase from them. Otherwise, it's not fair to them. |
I was going to remain quiet but Usermanual, your last comment put me over the edge. If anyone is making "weak points" it is you unfortunately. So let me pick them off for you one at a time: You are claiming a lot of (dry) details, yet Sibelius here just claimed it is too smooth and pretty. You claim lacks of natural harmonic overtones in the low frequencies where even MF, the bass freak that he is, admitted that they have the best resolving bass he ever heard. In theory, and in measurements, Magico bass alignment is more accurate and extended then ported design. First of all, Sibelius was commenting about the Magicos smoothing out the trumpet's sonic signature as compared to the real instrument's bite at fortissimo levels. I believe my example was talking about the Magico's bass as sounding dry to me, lacking in harmonic overtones. Unless I took a wrong turn somewhere, the trumpet's register does not go into the bass region, rather it remains largley in the midrange band and at the higher registers reaches into the treble region. So his comments do not contradict mine. Secondly, dry and smooth are not polar opposites. Dry means it lacks harmonic overtones and body. Smooth in audio lexicon suggests that a speaker can fully reproduce attack, the fundamental, and the decay of a note, leading notes to flow from one to the next, giving music a continuous flow. Two very different sonic phenomenon, so the one does not negate the other. ...but you should Google the subject, keep your mind open and trust your ears less because they are lying to you all the time). That is in theory, but also how, I and many reviewers and music lovers around the world hear them. With all due respect, I cannot imagine giving anyone any worse advice when it comes to selecting high-end audio equipment. You may be comfortable parting with your hard earned money based on what reviewers tell you you should want, but for anyone who wants to be satisfied and happy with their purchases, I would submit that one's ears are the only ones to trust. At the end of the day, if a speaker (or any high end audio equipment) does not emotionally pull you into the music (for whatever reason), then you can kiss your hard earned money goodbye, because I guarantee you, you will end up with gear that you listen to less and less, and that you will eventually "upgrade." JV, MF, RH, PM, JF, AS are all pushers!! Hmmm...YES! This may come as a shocker to you, but audio reviewers work for audio publishing concerns that generate the majority of their revenue from advertising. BTW, you are agreeing with people that do not like anything Magico does, including your Mini
Absolutely not true. I believe I stated above that I have always walked away from a Magico audition, admiring the speakers but not falling in love with them, because I just could not get emotionally pulled into the music when listening to them. I believe Sibelius mentioned that he thought Magicos did a lot of things extremely well but that he was not a fan of their ability to reproduce tone, harmonics, body to his liking. I could go on but this is getting a bit tiresome. That you are a Magico fan is clear and great for you. That you probably own a pair also may explain why you are being so defensive when comments are being made that may differ from your perspective. That's too bad but it is what it is. That you also depend on reviews as crutches to justify your own choices is also clear. If you want to gobble up marketing materials, reviews, and spew them back to the Agon community that is fine but please do not presume to know more about this hobby than others. I do not care how many reviewers agree with you. In any case, this is getting to be counter-productive and I apologize to the OP who has seen his post devolve into a pissing match. So after this I will bow out, having contributed my "opinion," one of many and that is all it is. For the OP, once again, my best advice is to hop on a plane and listen to both Magicos and Rockports and make your own mind up. As has already been mentioned many times, Goodwins carries both speaker lines. Good luck. |
Has anyone listened to Rockport Mira 2s? |
There`re no weak points being made here,just different points of view from yours.It just seems immature to react the way you do regarding something as innoculous as speaker preferences, it must mean a lot to you, take care. |
Guys, just because I point out weak points in your arguments, does not mean I am taking things personally ;) |
Usermanual what do you have that makes you the expert its all a matter of taste. |
I still like my MAGICO MINI 2 even if certain people love to bash them.Get a life DUDE!! |
Usermanual,
You seem to take these discussions personally. I believe these reviewers rave about Magico because they truly like them and are sincere with their praise. Some listeners will like them and others won`t.
If you admire what they do then why do you care if others simply feel differently? It makes no sense.
I happen to really like a good SET amplifier, otheres don`t, that does`nt bother me at all(why should it?). |
JV, MF, RH, PM, JF, AS are all pushers!!
BTW, you are agreeing with people that do not like anything Magico does, including your Mini
|
I agree my MAGICO MINI 2 sounds much warmer and more musical.JV will be pushing anything new. |
I`ve heard the Magico Q5 at CES 2010 and the Q1 at RMAF this year. I feel the same as Cmalak and Sibelius, the speakers did`nt reproduce the tone,overtones, fullness and body of instruments. IMO they did`nt sound natural but have an artificial character.
I sure it comes down to what reference one uses, in my case it`s live jazz played in local clubs without amplification, Just musicians on stage with their saxaphones,trumpets, drum sets, acoustic bass and piano. There`s such a vibrant and fullness of tone when those instruments are heard in person. Beautiful texture,timbre and warmth. It`s quite emotionally involving. The Magigo seems to strip this quality and thus to me sounds thin,leaner and washed out compared to reality.
I realize it`s all just diffenent ears and preferences.
J. Valin and others really love the Magico presentation. it just is`nt for me.
Regards, |
Peterayer:
The speaker I heard (sorry, don't remember which Magico model it was) did a lot of nice things but unamplified instrument timbre just seemed a bit off to me. Then again, I had the same issue with a bunch of multi-driver speakers I heard at the show. I found that I much preferred HE speakers with single or wide band drivers in that regard. Not to say that they are perfect - they have their own shortcomings. But I think they overall do a better job with portraying orchestral instrumental timbre (in the all imporant midrange - I'm not talking double bass or Organ here) and attack. A fortissimo trumpet is one example. I missed the piercing attack that assaults the ears when in a concert hall. Period instrument baroque music is another good example. Violins with gut strings have a very astringent tone to them when heard in person. In listening to the Magicos I felt that this aspect of the sound was much diminished.
Given the positive press I read on Magico's leading up to the show I had high expectations going in but in the end they were not my cup of tea.
I will say that it did appear that the majority of the people in the Magico room seemed to enjoy the speaker more than I did.
Overall, the show was a real ear opener for me. There were a lot of mega-buck speakers on display that just did not do it for me. There were only 3 or 4 (out of maybe 20 that I listened to) that I really liked. |
I've never found Magico to be analytical or dry. They don't have the dimension of a good Wilson or YG, but I like them better because I value tone and timbre over attack and decay.
I have a good friend that has a pair of M5's with nice Esoteric gear. I'm familiar with the V2 and V3 as well. I've heard similar priced Rockports at Goodwins. I prefer the Rockports. It's a tough call and your money so take the trip and listen to as many speakers as you can. |
Cmalak... I am not sure which model you have heard, but you clearly hearing something completely different then what I, and just about everyone else in the establishment is hearing. You are claiming a lot of (dry) details, yet Sibelius here just claimed it is too smooth and pretty. You claim lacks of natural harmonic overtones in the low frequencies where even MF, the bass freak that he is, admitted that they have the best resolving bass he ever heard. In theory, and in measurements, Magico bass alignment is more accurate and extended then ported design. Yes, it is not as efficient, but no one should argue that it is less accurate, and more extended(I am sure many that trust their ears will disagree, but you should Google the subject, keep your mind open and trust your ears less because they are lying to you all the time). That is in theory, but also how, I and many reviewers and music lovers around the world hear them. All the best to you as well and happy new year. |
Sibelius,
Are you saying the Magicos smoothed over the rough edges of a trumpet played at fortissimo levels or that other speakers often do that? What model of Magico did you hear? |
I first heard Magico speakers at the California Audio Show 2 years ago. I had heard very positive things about their speakers and was looking forward to the demo. The room was packed. Unfortunately, I was extremely disappointed with what I heard. The sound itself was clean and weighty with a large soundstage. What I thought it did a poor job of was replicating the tone of unamplified instrumnents. People brought all kind of funky demo disks (wind chimes, techno dance, sound effects) that seemed to really impress. Once I heard some actual instruments (trumpet, Oboe, Viola) I moved on. I find this a trend with many mega buck multi driver speakers these days. On their own terms they produce an impressive sound - I just don't find the sound an accurate representation of real instruments. A trumpet at fortissimo is not pretty. Too many speakers seem to smooth over the rough edges. |
Ricred1...where will you be listening to the Mira2s? Please let us know what you think after the audition. Thx |
Usermanual...perhaps "highly resolved" was not appropriate. I should have used the descriptor that the Magicos generally reproduce a lot of detail (which can give the impression of high resolution) but for me they lack a key ingredient for reproducing instrumental timbres and vocals, and that is the body and texture that one clearly hears when listening to a real instrument playing or a person singing. One of the key areas I find this to be the case is in the reproduction of bass where the Magicos can admittedly deliver punchy and cleanly articulated bass but it is dry and lacks the natural harmonic overtones (again the body is the best term I can think of to describe this) in the low frequencies. That is but one example. In any case, I do not wish to enter into a prolonged argument over the Magicos with you. You clearly are a fan of the Magico house sound, and that is great. When I listen to Magicos, I admire the speakers but do not get emotionally engaged. To each his own. My original point to the OP is that he should listen for himself and make up his own mind because we all hear differently, have heard the speakers in question with different playback equipment in different rooms, and so it becomes very hard to make valid comparative comments. All the best to you. |
I will be listening to Rockport Mira 2s in a couple of days. I was told they sound better than Wilson Sophia IIIs and Sashas! Another told me, he heard Sasha's and Mira 2s and the Mira's weren't even close. My ears will tell me in a couple of days. |
Sorry but it cant be highly resolved, and not "true to the source" at the same time. Perhaps if we clean up on the vocabulary, we will start understanding each other better. |
A musical speaker?? A totally subjective, and quite frankly, useless description. Unfortunately, it is used by audiophile all the time. In my experience, musical basically mean a coloration of some sort which for some reason one may fancy . A speaker should be as true to the source as possible. That does not mean analytical or austere, which are also forums of coloration. To my ears the Rockport are much less true to the source, and therefore more colored then the Magico. You may fancy that but I would not call that musical. Listen to a cello recording, and immediately after to a soprano. It takes a second to hear how significant the loudspeaker coloration on the sound is. To my ears, the Rockport sound is more evident than the Magico one. Different strokes for different folks. It's funny how we all perceive sound differently. To me, the Magico sound is anything but "true to the source" if your reference is live unamplified sound. To me the Magico sound lacks any of the organic natural texture of instrumental and vocal timbres. It sounds clean and highly resolved for sure but lacks texture and body and sounds almost austere and clinical to me. But this just goes to show the OP that opinions are just that opinions and one has to go and listen with their own ears and see what is pleasing to you. |
A musical speaker?? A totally subjective, and quite frankly, useless description. Unfortunately, it is used by audiophile all the time. In my experience, musical basically mean a coloration of some sort which for some reason one may fancy . A speaker should be as true to the source as possible. That does not mean analytical or austere, which are also forums of coloration. To my ears the Rockport are much less true to the source, and therefore more colored then the Magico. You may fancy that but I would not call that musical. Listen to a cello recording, and immediately after to a soprano. It takes a second to hear how significant the loudspeaker coloration on the sound is. To my ears, the Rockport sound is more evident than the Magico one. |
I think Magico replicates what is there. For good or bad. I found out that these are two flavours of replicating music at a high level. I now feel that the Rockports are several notches above my old Aerial 9s yet more 'musical' than the Magico V3. |
Everybody is saying Magico is analytical, but I heard Magico/YG shootout and YG was much, much more analytical and less forgiving of a recording. |
Also, good point on Magico not having a true center. |
From what I have heard the Rockports are more musical and offsets poor recordings. The Magico will presents a more true performance. If the recording is bad then the Magico will present it this way. If the Recording is superb then so will the presentation be on the Magico. So does that mean the Rockports softens the playback? |
Yeung,
For the cost of these speakers you`re considering I would fly to Boston and hear them at Goodwin Audio. |
Its your money you decide.HELLO!! |
Yeung...Soundcomponents just received the first Avior speaker in the US for demo purposes. And he also has heard the Mira 2 extensively. You can ask him for his thoughts on the Rockport speakers. |
Rockport also offers a center channel -- magico does not |
I actually disagree with Peter's take. I Have heard the Mira 1 (many times), Ankaa and Acquila and the V2/V3 at Goodwins and personally the Magicos (either model) are sterile and analytical sounding and for me the Rockport Miras sounded very musical. Also the bass is very different: Magico has sealed enclosures which give you quick, punchy but dry bass, whereas the Rockports will go deeper, still have great control and articulation but are much more textured in the bass. I have not heard the Mira 2s yet but talking to the folks at Goodwins, they say they are a material improvement over the original versions. If that is the case, for me, there is no contest. If you want hifi artifacts then Magico is the one to go with, if you want musical and emotional engagement than Rockport is the one for me. Of course, that is my opinion and Peter clearly had a diametrically opposed take on the comparison, so I would say the only real way to make a decision is to seek out an audition of both. As peter said, Goodwins in Boston carries both, so if you can get on a plane and arrange for a comparative audition, that will be your best way of deciding which way to go.
Good luck. |
Wow! The V2 is/was their entry line. And it was better? That is amazing. |
You could try contacting Goodwin's High End. They carry both brands. FWIW, I compared directly the Magico V2 to an $18K pair of Rockports (unsure of model name) in the same system at the dealership. I much preferred the V2 in the system on that day. The sound was much more coherent and sounded more like music. I only listened to analog records and no HT. For HT, the Rockports might offer more bass. |
