@pindac Thank you for posting a link to Neil Antin‘s magnum opus.
@antinn Thank you for responding to clarify specific questions with citations to your book.
Generally speaking, this is a very very confusing topic for beginners such as myself, getting back into vinyl in a serious fashion. I found the organization of Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records, 3rd Edition quite well laid out, easy to read, and well illustrated. What’s more, it cites materials for not only the United States, but Europe, the United Kingdom, as well as Australia. In five chapters it describes the process recommended as a starting-off point, with the what’s and why’s of each step. It’s strongest point, I think, is that it doesn’t hold up one ingredient or the other as a silver bullet, or mandate specific ‘hard rules’ so much as (1) describe the task, (2) list materials, (3) describe precisely how and why procedure is given the way it is, (4) offers ways to check effectiveness. Finally, it is very well documented. Anyone seeking to clean their records would benefit from reading it, in my opinion. It was worth the morning I spent doing so.
Note: Chapter 6 discusses keeping your records clean, and Chapters 7 through 15 delve deeper into the component parts of the cleaning process, starting with the water, and finish examining the method and effectiveness of record cleaning machines, both vacuum and ultrasonic. Appendix B consists of a helpful List of Abbreviations and Acronyms (don’t you wish everyone did).
For my part, I washed my old records by hand with warm water and Fels Naptha Soap and dried them with a cotton towel. [Hey! The process was aqueous, wasn’t it?] Play improved on all but the worst ones. I’ve purchased a Spin Clean, but have yet to use it. I’m thinking I’ll print out chapters 1-6 and start building my kit before I start in on my collection of about 200 LPs and 750 45 RPM records.
@pfmaudio I hope you are able to get some satisfaction from the dealer, and hopefully recover whatever was lost on your recordings. I can certainly understand your reticence to make any more sacrifices for ‘science’ or other’s satisfaction.
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@oldrooney I have built a kit around the Manual Cleaning Method described using UK Sourced Substances to be used as a mixture to produce the cleaning solutions.
I also bought into a 2.5Litre Pressurised Gardner Spray Bottle, with adjustable nozzle from jet to fine mist. This is excellent for wetting and Power Rinsing.
For the Mixtures produced to be Cleaning Solutions, I bought from Amazon multi Pack Spray Bottles approx' 0.5 Litre with adjustable nozzle from Mist to jet.
I have a Batch of Baby Scalp Brushes, colour coded to prevent cross contamination, each Brush has it own shallow rinse bowl.
I have Super Absorbent Sponge for First Dry and the Micro Cloth for the final dry.
New Sleeves are a must once cleaning is complete.
When I get fired up to clean, I protect an area with News Paper to catch the over spray.
Clean over the News Paper, but keep the Albums off the News Paper.
I can do 10 Albums in an Hour and the first 2 or 3 Albums are dry enough to play when the cleaning session is over and evidence of it having happened are cleaned up.
After the first Album is Played, if played immediately, all Albums can follow being played if wanted.
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@oldrooney,
Thank you for the compliment but let us not forget the contribution of @whart who generously stepped in as Editor and Publisher making the book available for free via his site - Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records-3rd Edition - The Vinyl Press and arranging that any time the book is downloaded, it's always the latest version.
And let me reiterate the premise of the book as stated in the Forward -
All cleaning procedures specified herein are presented as only “a” way to clean a record. No claim is made there is only one way to approach the process. In the final analysis, the best cleaning process is the one that is best for you.
Good luck,
Neil
PS/For those in the UK & EU, Chapter II Table II EU/UK Manual Record Cleaning Process Material Substitution List, the Tonar™ Plasticgoat Natural Goat Hair Wet Record Cleaning Brush may not be suitable. The design the book links - Tonar Plastigoat Natural Goats Hair Wet Record Cleaning Brush - SCOTT NANGLE AUDIO (snvinyl.co.uk) may not be the design being sold - Tonar Plastigoat Brush - HIFI MEDIA which has very short brushes and one user in Switzerland recently reported unsatisfactory (and may leave residue). The preferred Stasis brush (same as the Record Doctor brush) is available in the EU - Stasis Plattenbürste - Rockers Records.
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After this long thread I went to my dealer to discuss the matter. We listened to all the records on his system. And to the surprise of all, there was no problem with the records when played at his system. The problem must be at my turntable, as that is the only variable that wasn’t checked before.
It is a little misterious becaus, in my system, ONLY THE CLEANED RECORDS caused problems. I hear no difference in other records and the system seems ok to me. I will now check all the TT set-up because the problem must lie there.
The TT and cartridge of the dealer was of a similar quality of mine (SME 20.12 with Lyra Atla Carteige). His turntable a little better and the cartridge a little below the Atlas.
I will keep everyone informed on further developments.
Ome of the reasons why I didn’t at first reveal the brand of the machine was this one. I have more than 30 years on this hobby and it is not the first time that the reason of a problem is the one we think.
To all HuminGuro owners and future owners I say to be assured that my records weren’t, apparently, damaged by the US cleaner.
Thanks everyone for the help and comments, specially @antinn for the great help.
I will keep you informed.
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If it was only the cleaned records sounding off, one can only explain this by wondering if they were not completely dry, or even whether psychacoustic factors came into play somehow? (I mean no disrespect with the latter, we are all susceptible.)
Surely it cannot be a TT set-up issue or that would affect all records, cleaned or not.
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@dogberry, I understand your point. It was very clear to hear the distortion. Can we post in here an audio file?
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@pindac Thanks for the tips.
@antinn When I cite your work in future, I will be sure to include the text from the foreword, p. 3 that you quote above.
@whart Thank you for allowing free download of the current edition of Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records. It truly is a gift to the community and offers solid guidance in the midst of a forest of ‘solutions’ I feel.
@pfmaudio I’m glad things went well at the dealer. Your experience vindicated your reticence to mention names at the start, in my opinion. I don’t know about you, but every new purchase these days seems to generate a high degree of anxiety in me which seems to affect both my senses and my sense, if you will. I wish I had a dealer I could go to in order to confirm or deny my perceptions. I guess my old age (70+) makes me frail in ways I don’t always anticipate.
As far as I know you can post links to YouTube video clips that contain music, but I haven’t done it myself. The key is linking the data file, I’m not sure you can upload the file itself, but others may correct me. You might reach out to the site moderator for instructions and limitations.
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@pfmaudio,
It is a little misterious becaus, in my system, ONLY THE CLEANED RECORDS caused problems. I hear no difference in other records and the system seems ok to me. I will now check all the TT set-up because the problem must lie there.
If you only played back these 'cleaned' records once, and playback at the dealer was a 2nd time, it is entirely possible that your 1st playback scaped the record clean. In this case, and it can happen depending on the type & age of the residue, what was played back at the dealer was far cleaner than what you first played. So, if you check your TT-set-up and all was correct, there is a plausible explanation.
Unfortunately, these types of variables can drive one nuts. The more you know of the chemistry and the process, the less risk of falling into this trap.
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@oldrooney - FWIW@antinn was insistent that the book be made available for free. I was fine with that and more than happy to host the work. I've had a number of discussions with Neil, some far ranging, and always learn a lot.
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@whart, and for every one of those discussions, I similarly learned a lot. Your encyclopedic knowledge of the past industry both hardware and music are quite impressive, and as a music reviewer you are the equal of any other. And you're taking the time to visit the Library of Congress and meet and see their record conservations practices lends to your credibility.
Take care,
Neil
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@pfmaudio It was very clear to hear the distortion. Can we post in here an audio file?
Yes one can be linked, but the file itself must be hosted elsewhere on the web.
@antinn You remind me of something: the reason I bought a Loricraft many years ago was that I'd read the BBC was buying them to conserve their record collection. In those days if the BBC did it, it was a good recommendation. Not sure that is true any more!
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@pfmaudio You should have contacted the good folks at the CableCo and explained your issue with the pump on the Autodesk. I did that a few years ago when my pump broke and they upgraded me to the newest model for $1500. Not sure, but think that's cheaper than getting one of those cheaper options that, like you have discovered, can ruin your records.
If you still have the AutoDesk, I would call Robert Stein at the CableCo and see what he can do for you.
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get this, put one drop per gallon of water, it does not leave a residue or damage the record. Have cleaned about 600 records with it. The bottle might last my lifetime.
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Shoulda stuck with a simple VPI 16.5. No damage, just clean records.
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@elliottbnewcombjr "A picture is worth a thousand words. How many pics to tell Neil Antin’s 145 pages of words?" Yes, it is and that's why I bought a Degritter. Didn't Paul Rigby in one of his reviews on the Degritter say he washed a record a hundred times and not only did it not damage it, it improved sonically with every cleaning?
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@vitussl101,
The book addresses many subjects including the science behind cleaning agents, how clean does a record need to be and details for ultrasonic cleaning for those going the DIY route. But the manual sink-cleaning procedure is very simply summarized in Figure 6 – Precision Aqueous Vinyl Record Cleaning Process Summary with a picture of the materials to use in Figure 12 - Step 1: Assemble Cleaning Process Solutions and Materials
Otherwise, the devil is in the details, and oh by the way, the book is now 192-pages.
Peace
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@antinn,
"the devil is in the details, and oh by the way, the book is now 192-pages."
Boy, now when I want a book put me to sleep, I can retire "The Dancing Chain" a riveting story of the history of the bicycle rear derailleur.
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My hope is that the OP has learned that he isn't using an ultrasound machine.
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After my last post I made a complete TT set-up, to confirm what were the causes of the distortion. Had it checked by an expert in TT setup.
I found some issues. The O-rings of the suspensions towers were too stretched and one of the towers was no more suspwnding the table. Replaced all the O-rimgs. But the problem continued.
then checked the needle with a microscope. Found some dirt on the back of the needle, hard to remove. Using the Lyra SPT with care, finally arrived to remove it. It got better, but the problem was still audible.
and not only audible by me. Clearly audible by the person who made the new set up.
finnaly, checked overhand, VTA, weight (1,71 g, on the recommended values). Everything is ok.
Finnaly, put my spare cartridge back on the table, set it up and everything went into focus again. I must conclude that the problem is on the cartridge.
I will send it to reconstruction.
however, it is amazing that only on the cleaned records the problem was noticeable. It is very strange and unexplained thing. And audible by two persons, to eliminate psicológicas effects. In fact, in some cases even a deaf would detect the distortion. And only on the cleaned records.
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After such a lengthy ordeal, glad you found the solution
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what could be better and more expensive does not always offer better results and sometimes products are marketed before actual testing and it will be the end customers who act as beta testers without their knowledge.
I have been using a manual Nitti Gritti for 40 years and never had any problems washing over 5000 records; a Teflon gasket first and a rubber one later (up grade) which are the intake ones are the only things I changed.
I'm sorry for the opener who damaged his discs, I don't want to think that if they had been very rare or very expensive copies for collectors, how much damage the machine would have caused.
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Dear all,
I got back my Lyra cartridge from Japan. They sent me the following email.
“This cartridge has been bumped (hit against record or other object) by the customer. The front magnet carrier (purple piece) have rotated around mounting screw, and this has caused cantilever to be pushed out of position. This is not a warrantable problem. The reason for the distortion is that the rotated front magnet carrier touches the cantilever while playing the record. After the adjustments and revoking, all problems are now gone. The cartridge will play like when it was new.“
and it does play very well. The records which I believe were damaged are not damaged at all.
what is more extraordinary is how the problem was visible only after cleaning. Which! shows how the stylus traces the groove in a deeper form after cleaning.
thank you all for your comments.
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