ultrasound record cleaning machine damaged my records


I recently purchased an ultrasound record cleaning machine. For reasons which I hope you understand I won’t name brands, because I am not wanting to make bad publicity to anyone but to discuss the matter. 

Previously, I had anather ultrasound machine which broke. I cleaned more than a 1000 records with it, with no concerns at all. The machine broke and, due to its steep price, I decided to go for a less costly solution. 

With the new machine I cleaned 7 records. One of themLeonard Cohen’s “New Skin for the old ceremony”. When listening to “Chelsea Hote”, I remarked a distortion that wasn’t there before. IT was clear on the low notes, like the instrument being out of focus or vibrating. I had some old very worn records which had that problem due to bad stylus. At first I started to think that there was a problem with the stylus of my Lyra Atlas. So I went to another version of the same album I have at home, to check if there was a problem with the stylus. Clean passage. No problem at all. 

As on the previous cleaned record I noticed a similar problem, not so apparent, I decided to clean the second version of the LP on the new machine. Playing it i heard  the same distortion on the same music. Checking out all the 7 records I cleaned, I heard issues on all of them, some less apparent ( the mono ones) and some more appparent. 

I couldn’t believe it but the new machine was damaging my records. 

The combination of my atlas and my SME 312 arm gives some “needle talk” - music heard when with everything muted you put your hear next to the stylus on the record. Doing it, I heard the same rumble distortion that was being amplified by the system. 

 

I used distilled water (not a new one but one which was opened for the previous machine) but it was clear clean. I put the exact amount of surfactant liquid on the mixture of distilled water. I kept all the operating instruction rules. I don’t understand what is wrong, but the fact is this machines damages the grooves on the record. 

 

Does anyone had this problem before? Any help provided?

 

Note: I already contacted the dealer who sold it  and I am going to see him next week. It is a very good a solid dealer.  It I’d like to hear your opinion. 

 

Best regards,

pfmaudio

Showing 10 responses by pfmaudio

For more information, the frequency of ultrasound stated in the manual is 40 kHz. The output power (electrical) is 60W   The exposed time is 5 minutes and 10 minutes drying time. The machine only allows one record at a time. The volume of water is 400 ml for 12” records. 

Thank you all for your contribution. 
 

Thank you Antinn for your suggestion. I cleaned the record again with distilled water only. But the problem keeps there. I believe the grooves are damaged for good. Regarding your suggestion that an existing detritus got removed and showed the problem, all my 12” records were cleaned at least once, more than a year ago, with my late,Audio Desk machine, which broke the pump. It is very unlikely that some detritus was there, IMHO. 
 

but I made further actions following your advice. I decided to clean another record (old and with a new spare copy) with the distilled water ONLY. After a listening, I didn’t hear anything remarkable. Then, I put again on the tank the old mixture of water and cleaning solution (which I kept on a bottle for my dealer analysis). Listening  again, the problem WAS THERE. It seems the problem is on the mixture. I remember when putting in the 3 drops, the last one might have been doubled. However, if one drop has this effect, it is concerning. 
As the distilled water was old ( more than a year not sealed but closed with its cap) perhaps the problem is there, although a doubt. 
 

I will do another experiment with the old bottle of distilled only and let you know. 
 

Regarding some comments of not disclosing the OEM, I do think when someone puts an atomic bomb opinion on a forum like this it might be very damaging for the particular OEM, so I like to be prudent and respect other people efforts and investment in their products. At least until I spoke with them and get proper customer care. 
 

My old machine was an Audio Desk, which had a pump problem and is impossible to repair because the machine is sealed. Audio Desk offers a new one for half price with return of the original unit. However, it still gets expensive, with no assurance that the e pump won’t break again in the next years. With the audio desk I never had my problem at all I cleaned more than 1000 récords. 
 

the new machie Brand was añready guessed by some of The members, but please dont jump with conclusions. I Will keep you informed of further progress regardisns the distilled water or The “overdose” ou cleaning surfactant. 

Following my last post, i made more experiments. Cleaning a récord using the old bottle of distilled water gave all the problems I reported before. It seemed the problem was with the distilled water. However, having courage to eventually destroy another good record, I put to wash a new record, 180 g, of JamesTaylor “sweet baby james”, which I have 3 records. I used the new distilled water and two drops of the cleaning fluid, as recommend by the brand. After a careful glistening, I remarked lost of focus and quality. On the 4th music, steamroller, it was clearly noticeable the distortion on the electrical guitar. 
I rest my case, I don’t want to ruin more records. This machine does ruin the grooves. I decided to send it back to the seller and have my money back. There must be a problem somewhere, but I don’t  want to know anymore what it is. 
A machine like this is supposed to clean our precious records and not to destroy them. With the audio desk the problem was the pump but everything was ok. My fight with audio desk is the vulnerability of the pump and having no solution to replace it. Even 1/2 price for the replacement is a lot of money. But it was very trusty and never ruined anything. 
by the way the machine in case is a HummingGuru. I will let you know what will be their answer to the problem. 
best regard and thanks for your time and help. 

And by the way, @cleeds, I don’t fabricate affairs. That’s why I was careful enough not to put the brand of the machine before. 

@antinn,

thanks for your feedback. The only time I had no trouble was when I used the new distilled water with no cleaning fluid (the small bottle, of the same brand). However, it was with an old record, to which I listened before and after, without detecting differences. On old records there are always things we hear and it was a record that I didn’t listen to for a long time. I am 99% sure there were no issues. But not 100%. However, I didn’t hear the king of distortion present on the other records. 
 When I used the old distilled water only, the results were a disaster. 
When I used the new distilled water bottle with 2 drops of cleaning fluid, I  got bad results, but it was subtle. Only at the fourth track I could be pretty sure. On the 3 previous tracks there was perhaps a veil which prevented me to immerse on the music. But it was vague enough for me to admit there might be a psychological effect. However, on the fourth track, it was unmistakable. 
so perhaps you’re right and the problem is on the cleaning solution. The problem is that I don’t want to risk more records…

Do you think doubling the drying time can help to remove the eventual residue?

I’ll keep you informed of further developments. 
 

best regards,

Meanwhile, my dealer contacted HummingGuru and got the following email. 
 

“Regarding the issue mentioned by this customer, to be honest, we have not received any reports/feedback about such an issue. We assume that the record he cleaned using the HumminGuru is an album released in 1968 from Columbia records. In our testing base, we have cleaned many records from around that period, including from Columbia Records releases, and we have not detected any similar issue. The current vinyl pressing technology, raw materials, and compression molds used was established before that period, in other words, there is no difference between records from 1968 and 2024. The issue of distortion should not be related to the HumminGuru cleaner. 

 

Anyhow, we will need more information/video demonstrating the distortion in the low notes for further evaluation. However, It's important to consider that hearing is a subjective experience, and individuals' sensitivity to sound can vary.  It is difficult to justify when some people has very sharp ears, some don't. Additionally, as the ultrasonic cleaning process clears dirt from the grooves, it can result in a more open, louder, or vivid sound, which might affect the listening experience as well. 

 

Thanks! I look forward to your feedback. “

 

very vague and general, but I will be with the dealer this Wednesday where he might listen for himself and perhaps send a video or recording of the damaged records. Just hope they don’t qualify me has having very sharp hears, which unfortunately I don’t have anymore, at 57. 

After this long thread I went to my dealer to discuss the matter. We listened to all the records on his system. And to the surprise of all, there was no problem with the records when played at his system. The problem must be at my turntable, as that is the only variable that wasn’t checked before. 
It is a little misterious becaus, in my system, ONLY THE CLEANED RECORDS caused problems. I hear no difference in other records and the system seems ok to me. I will now check all the TT set-up because the problem must lie there. 
The TT and cartridge of the dealer was of a similar quality of mine (SME 20.12 with Lyra Atla Carteige). His turntable a little better and the cartridge a little below the Atlas. 
I will keep everyone informed on further developments. 
Ome of the reasons why I didn’t at first reveal the brand of the machine was this one. I have more than 30 years on this hobby and it is not the first time that the reason of a problem is the one we think. 
To all HuminGuro owners and future owners I say to be assured that my records weren’t, apparently, damaged by the US cleaner. 
Thanks everyone for the help and comments, specially @antinn for the great help. 
I will keep you informed. 

@dogberry, I understand your point. It was very clear to hear the distortion. Can we post in here an audio file?

After my last post I made a complete TT set-up, to confirm what were the causes of the distortion.  Had it checked by an expert in TT setup. 
 

I found some issues. The O-rings of the suspensions towers were too stretched and one of the towers was no more suspwnding the table. Replaced all the O-rimgs. But the problem continued. 
then checked the needle with a microscope. Found some dirt on the back of the needle, hard to remove. Using the Lyra SPT with care, finally arrived to remove it. It got better, but the problem was still audible. 
 

and not only audible by me. Clearly audible by the person who made the new set up. 
 

finnaly, checked overhand, VTA, weight (1,71 g, on the recommended values). Everything is ok. 
 

Finnaly, put my spare cartridge back on the table, set it up and everything went into focus again. I must conclude that the problem is on the cartridge. 
 

I will send it to reconstruction. 
 

however, it is amazing that only on the cleaned records the problem was noticeable. It is very strange and unexplained thing. And audible by two persons, to eliminate psicológicas effects. In fact, in some cases even a deaf would detect the distortion. And only on the cleaned records. 

Dear all,

 

I got back my Lyra cartridge from Japan. They sent me the following email. 
“This cartridge has been bumped (hit against record or other object) by the customer. The front magnet carrier (purple piece) have rotated around mounting screw, and this has caused cantilever to be pushed out of position. This is not a warrantable problem. The reason for the distortion is that the rotated front magnet carrier touches the cantilever while playing the record. After the adjustments and revoking, all problems are now gone. The cartridge will play like when it was new.“

 

and it does play very well. The records which I believe were damaged are not damaged at all. 
 

what is more extraordinary is how the problem was visible only after cleaning. Which! shows how the stylus traces the groove in a deeper form after cleaning. 
 

thank you all for your comments.