I vote a moratorium on these endless circular arguments over the merits and demerits of this or that drive mechanism. Lets just see how various ones of them work according to Timeline. But in general, a good direct-drive motor WiLL have more torque than a good belt-drive motor. However I will not claim that this per se makes one better or worse than the other.
I am also wracking my brain to think whether I know anyone who can test the Timeline out of context (meaning not by using a turntable). Some sort of light-sensitive timer is needed. |
This is an interesting discussion with philosophical, theoretical and practical elements. I am not in any way an advanced thinker or practitioner on things analog. However, I don't think anyone has addressed these issues with respect to a mylar tape drive, which is essentially inelastic. I will say that I believe that unless you have perfect pitch, I would think that it would be better to have a TT whose speed has better precision than accuracy. IOW, within certain bounds, speed stability is more important than speed accuracy. A table that runs at 33.6 rpm, +/- 0.05 rpm, would be preferable to a table that runs at 33.3 rpm, +/- 0.5 rpm. I made those #s up to illustrate my point; I have no idea how audible those variations would be but I hope you get my point. |
Dear Swampwalker, Please look HERE |
Dear Swampy, Halcro may be trying to tell you that we have covered the territory of your query, and "we" tend to agree with you, I think. I certainly do. |
Halcro Good work and thank you for your time spent on this.
I know that I am pitch sensitive and I believe it is most important perceptual feature in music.
Which is why I have never been satisfied with any of the belt drive turntables that I have owned so far. |
But in general, a good direct-drive motor WiLL have more torque than a good belt-drive motor. As a generalization that is incorrect. A DD drive has to spin at 33 1/3 rpm. In a belt drive, there is a tremendus amplification of torque of the motor afforded by the ratio between the motor diameter and that of the platter diameter. Add to that the possibility of a powerful motor, and you see what I mean. By no means is this an excuse to use a weenie little motor to drive a 20 pound platter though. As an example the Atma-Sphere 208 is up to speed in 1/2 a revolution- not that far off from the SP-10, which gets there in 1/4 of a turn. Most of the delay on the 208 is the belt slipping on the motor, as it is up to speed before you can take your finger off of the 'On' button. However the platter of the SP-10 is about triple that of the 208 in weight. The SP-10 in particular is an exceptional turntable, and thoroughly disproves that old idea that DD was somehow flawed. But it is the exception rather than the rule regarding DD, IOW the SP-10 motor has more torque than most any other motor in use in turntables. I am sure that is a large part of why it works so well. A robust drive is really important in a good turntable! |
A robust drive is really important in a good turntable! Very interesting comment. Jibes with the idea that the quality of the power supply is v. impt in amp and pre-amps as well. Not sure why, maybe its just a co-incidence? But after having my pre-amp's power supply upgraded, I am more convinced than ever that it is true for the electronics! |
Halcro- Yes, I had read that and was trying to re-state it in a way that might make sense to those of us who are not musicians. Not sure how common this is amongst "us", but I cannot carry a tune in the proverbial bushel basket, let alone have any idea what a 12 hz variance in pitch means. I am in total awe of musicians, esp. singers! |
A fast start up direct drive turntable does not necessarily have higher torque. Some DD tables boost the torque only at the first couple seconds to get the platter up to speed and then lower the torque to just enough to keep the platter running. The image that DD has higher torque is due to the popularity of Technics turntables, especially the SL-1200mk2 and SP-10mk2. But Technics is, of course, not the only name in the DD game.
_______
|
Thank you In_shore,
But what happens if the orchestra being recorded is already tuned 12Hz lower than 440Hz which means that at 33.33rpm......we are getting 428Hz for the note A?
If our turntables are then running slow by....say 12Hz.....it can't really be good?
The aim should really be....to be as close as possible to an accurate and consistent 33.33rpm?
Cheers
Henry |
Hiho, There is much ignorance among us as to how the servo system of this or that direct-drive turntable actually works. From my casual observation, they are not all the same, by any means. But from a Newtonian point of view, max torque is only ever attained at the moment of start-up, when the platter is completely at rest and then must undergo a change of inertia to being in motion at 33.333... rpm. So, the huge torque of an SP10 Mk3 is what gets its 22-lb platter up to speed in 0.25 seconds (or something like that, according to the Mk3 owner's manual). Once the platter (any platter) is in motion at its set speed, it does not take much torque to keep it there, except that which is needed to counter-act stylus drag. Here is where the design and implementation of the servo mechanism is different for different vintage types. For example, I am not sure I understand exactly how the L07D system works, but it appears that the full torque of the motor is only invoked when or if there is a major loss of speed for whatever reason. (I think the service manual says more than a +/-3% speed deficit.) Otherwise, the drive system doles out torque in small increments, and I think this is done to minimize the audibility of tiny corrections that need to be made to maintain exact speed. The engineers of the 1970s and 80s were well aware of all of these issues that we are now still obsessing over. The L07D may turn out to be my all-time fave, and it's not the highest torque in town.
And, lest we forget, among designers of both belt- and direct-drive turntables there seems to be a divide around weak motor/huge platter vs strong motor/light(er) platter. There are logical arguments either way. So, I would not be so bold as to make any declarative statements. |
And, lest we forget, among designers of both belt- and direct-drive turntables there seems to be a divide around weak motor/huge platter vs strong motor/light(er) platter. There are logical arguments either way. So, I would not be so bold as to make any declarative statements. Well said- every design is a compromise, and barring a "paradigm shift" or revolutionary advance in technology or theory, implementation and qa/qc are the make or break points. Says the guy who can't carry a tune;-) |
Dear Swampwalker, 'Our' Lew is a scientist so no wonder he
use what Wittgenstein called 'scientific grammar'. I would prefer 'indicative statements' above 'declarative' but in any case the 'truth valued ' statments are presupposed. I believe that thinking about different drive systems involves a 'paradigm shift' but not a 'revolutionary' advance in technology. If there were a real revolutionary advances in the technology all TT's designs would use this technology. Otherwise the producers of the 'old technology' TT's would obviously speculate about possible 'sentimental buyers'.
Regards, |
Lewm: "The engineers of the 1970s and 80s were well aware of all of these issues that we are now still obsessing over. The L07D may turn out to be my all-time fave, and it's not the highest torque in town." Good point and good write up. At one point I thought the higher the torque the better and forgot about the increase in cogging. Torque for torque sake does not a good turntable make. I agree that Kenwood knew what they were doing back in the days. Recently I recommended a Kenwood KD-770D, one with a rather low torque coreless motor by DD standard, to an acquaintance and he is so happy that even his wife thinks the sound is smoother and that's with a cheap cartridge. I really think the reduction of cogging by using a good motor is a worthy effort in DD designs. And a precise but "gentle" servo is less harmful to the sound than some brute force detecting system. eg., someone in a DIY forum did the below to his modified Technics SL-Q3: "I modified the negative feedback loop network to make the whole thing underdamped. As it is from the factory, it is overdamped and after doing some A/B test by switching instantly between the factory network and the new one, it is obvious the change in sound. The modded version is much more relaxed and clear and all the distortion (similar to jitter in digital) in mids and highs is gone." Some of that sterile DD sound may be caused by the "overdamped" servo, a kind of "analog jitter" Mosin and others mentioned before. It all comes down to execution, I guess... _______ |
Lewm,I struggle with this statement -
"among designers of both belt- and direct-drive turntables there seems to be a divide around weak motor/huge platter vs strong motor/light(er) platter"
I have never associated high mass platters with low torque motors.
If you had said the 2 schools of thought were light platters with sophisticated speed correction or control versus high mass platters with more inertia and less speed correction that would be a more accurate synopsis in my view. |
Re the Kenwood L07D and the Technics SP10mk3.
In understanding the design we must remember these turntables were built for quite different purposes or use. The L07D was an all out assault to produce a state of the art tt for home use. The SP10mk3 was designed primarily for broadcast and archival use. Consequently the L07D has one of the most sophisticated plinths of any tt manufactured in terms of rigidity, energy dissipation and ease of adjustability for accurate set up. The SP10mk3 has incredible torque, very fast start up and stop times and a crap plinth.
We dont know what was in the minds of the Technics designers - the choice of the mk3 motor may have been more to do with the fact that it was the motor used in cutting lathes and readily available at the time. What is interesting is that when they increased the torque they also increased the weight of the platter significantly from the SP10mk2. |
Well, I couldn't fight the temptation so I purchased a Timeline and received it today. I turn it on, and instead of flashing once every 1.8 seconds, it flashes several times per second (maybe five or six). Does anyone else have this issue? I'm thinking it's defective, but I put it on my table and it seems to flash every 1.8 seconds on several spots per revolution, so it looks as if it's flashing at an exact multiple of once every 1.8 seconds. I check and adjust the speed with my KAB strobe and after a lot of fine adjusting I get the laser to flash consistently on one spot (and the KAB showing exactly 33 1/3 rpm). I lower the needle (I have an album, the KAB, and the timeline on my table) and voila, my table does not slow down with stylus drag. I have not yet done extended time tests yet.
My table is a diy plinth with lenco drive system,a PTP, and a VPI platter. My only complaint is that the speed adjustment is far to sensitive and therefore difficult to set.
I hadn't checked the speed in a while and this experiment seems to indicate it can drift quite easily (likely with small changes in voltage and/or frequency). I see a motor controller in my future. |
We often mention the great engineers of the sophisticated turntables of the 70s and 80s. What they were thinking, why they did this, why they did that. Does anyone actually know one of these guys? Where are they today? You would think that at least one of them was an audiophile today and maybe even posts on an audiophile forum, but I have never seen one of their posts. You would also think that someone in the modern turntable industry would have bumped into one of these guys at one point, but I haven't heard of that, either.
How cool would it be to talk to someone who designed the |
|
Canam, the newest model does that so it is easier to find the spot that is easiest for you to watch while the rest can be ignored. I think it is mentioned on the Sutherland website. |
Dear Dover, The statement you "struggle" with is really most applicable to belt-drive turntables, where the two paradigms are most obvious. Compare the Walker Proscenium or any Nottingham (weak motor/big platter school) to an SME or an Avid turntable (strong motor/relatively lightweight platter). And there are many more examples on either side that I am not thinking of at the moment. In direct-drive, we have the SP10 Mk3 (hi-torque) vs the Kenwood L07D (relatively lo-torque but no slouch for torque), but the contrast is not nearly so great since the Mk3 has a heavier platter than does the Kenwood, but the Kenwood is up there in weight compared to most others, e.g. Denon, Victor, Sony. Too bad Travis is preoccupied with moving from Tokyo to HK; he could quote more chapter and verse than I vis vintage dd's. And Kenwood and hi-end Pioneer (read "Exclusive") used coreless motors which tend to be less torque-y because hi-torque versions get too hot, according to my reading. With no core iron, the heat associated with hi-torque is not so well dissipated. |
Ketchup: "You would think that at least one of them was an audiophile today and maybe even posts on an audiophile forum, but I have never seen one of their posts." You must be kidding me, right? _______ |
Ketchup, Well still a live are: Lurne, Kuzma, Driessen (Pluto) and Simon Yorke. To my knowledge only Lurne produced also DD TT's (Studio, Studietto) but in his own
company (Audiomeca) only belt driven TT's. It seems reasonable to think that they prefered belt drive. Lurne also published about his design phylosophy but I can't
recollect his thoughts about DD's.
Regards, |
Ketchup: "You would think that at least one of them was an audiophile today and maybe even posts on an audiophile forum, but I have never seen one of their posts."
There may well be, but I doubt very much they would post on an English speaking forum. Japanese? ...maybe! |
Ecir38 - Thanks, you are right. I couldn't see this info on the Sutherland website so I emailed them and they confirmed that the new model puts out 8 flashes per 1.8 seconds. This gives the user eight spots to choose from. I wish they would update their rather cryptic user manual with this info. It still says one flash per rev. |
Can anyone name one brand that is not Japanese, not German, and not Swiss origin that made direct-drive turntables in the 70's, 80's, and 90's before the Rockport Sirius III, which was reviewed in Stereophile in 2000? I certainly cannot think of one. So for 3 decades in the USA and UK that were dominated by Linn, there was no manufacturer making DD tables. Are audiophiles really that monogamous? That statistic is frightening, considering the two audio powerhouses in the world did not make a single direct-drive turntable in the heydays of analog! Click here for some direct-drive history and brands. _______ |
Dear Nikola, Without saying unkind words about his products that have been sold in the US, I just cannot put Lurne' in the pantheon of great tt designers. Perhaps he marketed some tt's exclusively in Europe that were exceptional.
For the past 20 years, the fashion has heavily favored belt-drive, thanks to Ivor Tiefenbrun and the Linn LP12 and complicit audio reviewers. Only a brave man would have introduced a new direct-drive turntable in the 90s and early 21st century, after the technology had been denigrated for so many years. Plus, and we have been over this ad nauseam, it is much more expensive and technologically challenging to build a new sota direct-drive than it is to do a new belt-drive. Now we finally have a few, in the form first of the Rockport Sirius (a real pioneer product, IMO) and then of the GP Monaco, Brinkmanns, NVS, and Teres Certus. But these are all very expensive and therefore rare.
Dover, FWIW, the motor in the SP10 Mk3 is NOT identical to the cutting lathe motor also made by Technics and used by many in the manufacture of LPs. That one has even much more torque than the Mk3 motor. The Mk3 motor and its drive system were explicitly designed for LP playback. |
Dear Lew, I know your opinion about Lurne for some time but
Goldmund thought obviously otherwise when they hired him
as a TT designer. I am not sure if he designed the Goldmund
Reference but well that he designed the Studio which is
a DD kind and also the F3 linear arm. The DD motor was not a problem in Europe . He used the Papst motor first and JVC latter. He is still in business btw.As you also know Dual produced two very interesting DD motors but sold many more belt drives. Dual is now back in buseness but they don't produce any DD turntables at present. The reason is probable the pessimistic market expectation.
However I also mentioned Kuzma, Driessen and Yorke but you
obviously prefered not to comment on them. Considering the
prices for their TT's one can hardly argue that the production cost is the reason for their avoidance of DD kind.
Regards, |
I respect the work of Kuzma, Driessen, and Yorke, from a distance. I only say what I say about Lurne' because of my experience with his earliest Audiomeca product. And my opinion should really mean nothing. As I once told you, were I to be in the market for a belt-drive type turntable, the Kuzma Reference, a la chez Nandric, would be my choice. |
Dear Nandric, the Goldmund REF designed by George Bernard and the latest edition mkII also. The latest projects of both Simon & Pierre were about $25000 and it comes naturally the cause of their choise regarding BD TTs as Eddie first showing the seeds of the "exotic" creations (?)
I've had in my posession the Zarathustra S4 and the J4/SL5 and for a limited time (3 months) the Studio ST4. All of them were very fine TTs and not so far from reality ($$$).
Anyway right now I'm far away from this kind of lust and I feel that the Hi-Fi market's turning point at '80s with the Japan giants leaving the field to some hungry animals, it is still our torment today after 3 decades and we owe it to our love for this hobby to realise and accept the influence which has upon us the marketing status. After the shrinkage of the hi-fi market, the industry turns it's back and left the designers to seek for the whealthy victims among us. There is so little progress and so much BS today that the buyer is usually go for the more beautiful as a statement of his life style. But unfortunatelly TTs are not cars and so, his "Buggatti" is only for the eye and refuses to spin properly a vinyl.
Are we going to feed this monster again? |
Geoch: "I feel that the Hi-Fi market's turning point at '80s with the Japan giants leaving the field to some hungry animals, it is still our torment today after 3 decades and we owe it to our love for this hobby to realise and accept the influence which has upon us the marketing status. After the shrinkage of the hi-fi market, the industry turns its back and left the designers to seek for the wealthy victims among us. There is so little progress and so much BS today that the buyer is usually go for the more beautiful as a statement of his life style. But unfortunately TTs are not cars and so, his "Bugatti" is only for the eye and refuses to spin properly a vinyl. Are we going to feed this monster again?" Great post, Geoch! And great question! _______ |
You must be kidding me, right? Hiho, I'm not sure how to take that. If you know the names of any engineers who designed state of the art TTs in the 70s and 80s, why don't you just list them, along with the company they worked for, and where they post in discussion forum today? That's what I'm interested in knowing. Who did Kuzma work for before starting Kuzma in 82? What about Yorke? Where did he work before starting to build his own TTs? How about Driessen of Pluto Audio? Pluto was founded in 74. Did he work somewhere else before that? |
We interrupt this program for one comment on tt speed accuracy: For those of you who have been holding your breath for a report on the speed accuracy of my SP10 Mk3, results are in: Perfect! I am so relieved I am going to sit down now with a stiff cognac, keeping in mind that this is a Sunday morning. I had had such faith in the Mk3 that I had never checked it before, even with my KAB strobe, but you guys have made me question my convictions.
The AC voltage at my wall socket is 121V this morning. I actually feared that this over-voltage (Technics PS says to feed it 110V) would confound the Technics. But the PS has an AC regenerator built into it, so apparently no issues. |
Lewm,
Congratulations. Is that with the stylus in the groove? |
Dear Geoch, I agree totally with your 'whealty assumption'
reg. the ''exclusive TT's''. The prices are 'astronomical' but obviously not economical. Ie those are not easy to sell. So your pressuposed 'whealthy victims' are probable very scarce kind of the human kind. I do believe that we in this forum are crazy but within the reasonable bondaries. Not a merrit of our psychology but of our means. I see that you are very well informed about those 'exclusive babys'. I never heard about George Bernard btw.
Dear Lew, I had no idea that you can be also charming. I was 'programmed' to expect mainly critical remarks from you. Thanks for your comment about my Kuzma. But before my Kuzma I owned the Audiomeca J 1 . They are very similar qua design philosophy so it may be the case that Kuzma 'borrowed' some ideas from Lurne.
Regards, |
01-22-12: Lewm
We interrupt this program for one comment on tt speed accuracy: For those of you who have been holding your breath for a report on the speed accuracy of my SP10 Mk3, results are in: Perfect! Same for me, in fact the MK3 is the only turntable we have tested so far that has zero movement. 01-22-12: Ketchup
Lewm,
Congratulations. Is that with the stylus in the groove? In my case no movement either way. In fact, I can play an LP all the way through, 33 or 45 speed and the Timeline laser is still beaming at the same spot on the wall when I cue up the arm at the end. |
Hi Albert,
when you say the MK3 is the only one tested with zero movement is that also making reference to the NVS you also own currently?
You did own the one NVS prior which you were listening to for a while and statrted hearing noises 'bearing" and sent it back to be fixed, you know what I mean.
I'm not trying to bring up past issues but just curious. |
Good news Lew,
But are you sure the Timeline is accurate? :^) |
01-22-12: Halcro
Good news Lew,
But are you sure the Timeline is accurate? :^) I can answer for Lew, I test each and every Sutherland Timeline by putting them on my MK3. If the Timeline holds true and steady for an entire side of a heavily modulated LP, it passes and is ready to be shipped to the waiting customer ( :^D ) |
Albertporter,
This is astonishing, you are saying that every Timeline shipped is calibrated to your SP10mk3.
So if your SP10mk3 is out all Timelines shipped could be out.
Didn't you just "prove" that after calibrating the Timeline to your SP10mk3 that this then proves the Timeline is accurate because your SP10mk3 gives the same result when retested.
I think I need a drink.... or a shrink. |
Dover,
A drink is cheaper than a shrink, hope you enjoy the joke along with me :^). |
Dover, a laugh is all you need.
_______
|
Hi Dover,
It's a running joke between Lew and me.
Albert got it.......so did Hiho :^) |
Ketchup: "Hiho, I'm not sure how to take that." Sorry, Ketchup. Your post was legit but cynicism got the better of me. My initial reaction was that we audiophiles really like to flatter ourselves and why would any Japanese engineers who worked for these corporate giants would waste time on a forum like this and most of them likely not fluent in English, which Lespier alluded to. Knowing how engineers sneer at and dismiss audiophiles, and I knew quite a few, I am skeptical they would ever respond to forums like this. Again, your post and question was totally legitimate and I sure hope we will get a response from these pioneering engineers one day. ______ |
Albert Porter/Halcro
Bit slow today, so I had a drink, Steinlager Pure Blond, much clearer now. Cheers... |
I actually re-heated my morning coffee by placing it squarely in line with a laser beam from the Timeline whilst it was rotating on my Mk3 which was playing a Wagnerian opera using an old Decca spherical stylus cartridge that tracks at 4 gm..... Just kidding about the Wagner. I hold with Mark Twain who said, "Wagner is not as bad as it sounds". (Well, I mentioned cognac, did I not?)
But I now understand Henry more fully. |
Sometimes there is simply no substitute for the ears?
I had recently switched from the original rubber belt of the Raven AC-2.....to a thread drive.
There was little difference in the speed consistency as shown by the Timeline......but initially....to my ears.....there seemed to be an improvement in the sound?
Yesterday.....I was sitting back comfortably listening to the ballet music fom Le Cid by Massenet conducted by Louis Fremaux on Klavier Records.
In the third movement 'Catalane-Madriene'......when the French horn and the flute begin their delicate interplay........I could clearly hear some 'wow'...particularly with the flute warbling rather frighteningly?
I quickly switched the disc to the Victor TT-101 where there was nothing but pure joyous breathy consistency.
So I placed the Timeline on the Raven and saw that it appeared as consistent as it previously had.
I replayed the Madriene and re-heard the 'warble'.
I switched the rubber belt back in and re-set the speed according to the Timeline.
No more 'warble'.......?
If anyone has some theory to explain this phenomenon........I would love to hear it?
For the moment......the belt is back on the Raven......but my trust is firmly with the TT-101 :^) |
Dear Halcro, the mass is not enough for the thread to work properly. You must add a flywheel. The grip of the belt beats it's elasticity in this particular arrangement and it would be even better if you can manage to put a capstan at the pulling side of the motor in order to increase this characteristic once your set-up is better served by this grip than the thead's slippage. I've witnessed the same action by placing a thread on my 24 kgr platter. Here the reason was not only the improper mass but also the very weak motor. And the limited acceptance of a round belt only, left me without opportunities to fix anything. (Not that I care any more about that TT. I'm only sharing some tweeks of the past). Perhaps Daniel can share his experience ? |
Halcro, it is a tragicomedy, perhaps the brass and woodwinds are just not getting on with the stringed instruments.
Could be any number of reasons, but most thread drives are designed with high mass platters and very small concave pulleys. I have the Final set up such that there is no slippage with the silk thread, ie quite taut, and if I turn the motor off the platter will drive the motor/pulley quite easily for a while. I still have concerns about how well the 2 motors on the Raven are synchronised. As you have highlighted our ears are better than many measuring instruments. If the thread is taut it is more direct coupled than a rubber belt which could magnify motor drive issues. Purely conjecture of course. |
Just watching Berdych take the first set against Rafa in a tie-breaker in the Australian Open.
This looks like a possible match to be 'bottled'?
Dear Geoch & Dover,
Thanks for the explanations.
The Raven belt does have a smooth side and a 'coarse' side designed to grip the platter.
The platter also does not keep rotating very far after the motors are switched off indicating perhaps a bearing designed for friction so that the motors have a load against which to pull?
The thread is stretched tight.....but the side of the platter material is smooth and slippery.....although the shiny heavy metal platters of the big Micros would seem to be equally slippery?
So there may not be a satisfactory way to get the Raven to work with a thread drive?
What I still don't understand is.......accepting the thread slippage.......how does the Timeline indicate constant speed? |
