Turntable got absolutely crushed by CD

Friend bought a jukebox full of 45s. It sounds really crap; muffled and woolly. At a party when it was playing, everyone was cooing about how they love the sound of records. Go figure.

When I was in high school, we stacked 45's a mile high on a record changer at parties; this was in the 50's. In good condition, they would be worth big bucks now.

@orpheus10

Once you’ve been to New York or Paris, you can never go back home; or once you’ve been to the high end, you can never go back to "mid fi".

This is true, for me analog only getting better and better and it’s quite interesting process.

@elizabeth

Well it IS about the music right? not high end turntables and exotic cartridges.. OH sorry, for you it IS about the high end turntables and exotic carts...

Well, i don’t want to buy 5 different pressings of the same record, but i can buy 5 different cartridges to make all my LPs sound better. However, some of my rare 45s cost more that very expensive cartridges (but it’s not necessary that i paid that much for rare 45s which is now cost 5 times as much than 15 years ago).

Anyway most of the serious collectors that i know all over the world will never pay more than $150 for a cartridge and more than $500 for a turntable with toneam. Thye don’t even know how to set up a cartridge. Also for some reason those people don’t believe they can hear the difference (i think they never tried to compare) and most of them considering audiophilia as some sort of illness. At the same time i am considering their hobby to pay $500-1000 for a very rare record in VG condition as some sort of illness too. They could sell a few rare records to buy proper equipment to enjoy entire collection on the different level, but they don’t want and don’t need this experience.

The owner of the biggest record store in St. Louis is still into "mid fi".

Each to his own.

For me, it's 100% about the music, but without the high end turntable and cartridge, there is no music.

Once you've been to New York or Paris, you can never go back home; or once you've been to the high end, you can never go back to "mid fi".

One assumed convenience is the reason people go to streaming. Same reason eople went to CD.

Some people just too old to understand what’s going on with the young generation. Nobody cares about the quality, record collecting is not about the sound quality for most of the people, it’s about the physical media format which is just cool. They are happy to play vinyl even on portable plastic turntables like those Columbia GP-3 or Fisherprice. As i said earlier: most of the adult record collectors doesn’t care about equipment, they are happy with $300 Technics SL1200mkII and $80 Shure m44-7, but these people own many thousand mega rare record and they are happy to buy more, it’s just like a habbit. This is called crate digging. These scene is all about vinyl, there is no room for CDs or digital. It’s a culture and smart kids want to be a part of this culture. They already have free digital in their life forever. Vinyl is something unique.

It’s like analog film photography, it’s just so cool, much more complicated than digital photography. Have you seen teenagers with analog film cameras taking pictures? This is another cultural thing. It doesn’t matter that every iPhone can make an HD video and amazing pictures. There is a huge community of youth analog film lovers in every country, it’s an art form.

Personally i totally agree that to make vinyl sounds better we need an expensive analog equipment and knowledge to choose them, but this is only a part of the life of the audiophiles (very small community, another expensive hobby for crazy people like us).

Pardon me, but I can think of nothing dumber than buying records for those so called "starter turntables" like bikes with training wheels. Records are expensive, and without an expensive high end analog rig, plus the knowledge to put it all together, they do not sound as good as CD's played on a cheap CD player; not to mention all the other headaches that go with records.

"Just the facts ma'am, nothing but the facts"

The OP has legitimate high end analog, and because he didn't adjust it properly, or have the right cartridge, it sucks; give me a break with all these young people buying records. Why?
and why don't statistics, such as the one's Tomycy61 posted on 12-03-2018 9:42pm support this?

I asked my young 40 year old neighbor, if any of his friends who he went to college with, were into records or CD's; "Neither", he replied, "They're into streaming"

I have my doubts about all these young people into records;

In contrast to that: I've been surprised by the number of my kid's friends - and the kid of my friends - who are aware of vinyl records and who play or buy them.  Just tonight I was out with a pal and both his sons, 14 and 17, played vinyl records.
These days when my kids bring over friends they aren't mystified when they notice my turntable.  Rather it's more "Oh yeah, we have records too, my parents have a turntable."   I never heard that until recently.
Also, while there has been a second hand record store around the corner from me for decades, in the past few years it's been joined by many other new record stores, so now I have 4 record stores within about a mile of my home.   All seem to be thriving.  Quite a change from the 90's and early 2000s!

We should only be interested in those who might become audiophiles, the rest have nothing to do with us. And for those few it is the same as for us - original pressings LPs for analog recordings and cds for digital recordings. Later probably computer instead of cds but not yet.
Buy less but of higher quality. Yes, buying records on line is difficult, but if VG+ is good enough it's not too bad. Average cost for me is about $25-$30 per record plus shipping but I mostly buy from Japan and Europe. 

I have had pretty good luck with online sellers.

orpheus10:  The larger questions are, why do they stream and what are they listening with equipment wise.   

I asked my young 40 year old neighbor, if any of his friends who he went to college with, were into records or CD's; "Neither", he replied, "They're into streaming"

I have my doubts about all these young people into records; maybe they aren't college educated, and therein lies the difference. Records are flat out dumb if you're not a "geezer", who already owns a bazillion records, or rich and bored.

First of all, I got a bazillion records, many that can not be found anywhere, plus I know the complete score, including the insanely priced hardware that's required; I have to go for a TD. While young people who don't own a record or a TT might be better off leaving it that way.

@glupson

https://www.amazon.com/Hotel-California-EAGLES/dp/B0052VI2V6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1543969607&a...

https://www.amazon.com/Hotel-California-DVD-Audio-Surround-Sound/dp/B00005T5YK/ref=sr_1_1_twi_dvd_1?...

It is about your age. Slightly more expensive digital than vinyl.

Sorry, but younger generation is smart enough to download music in digital format for free. 

Stuff like Eagles and other expired classics available for free anytime.

Unfortunately we can't physically clone the original vinyl for free.  

This is what i mean

Yes, people are selling CDs, i would be happy to sell some of mine with nice music, but nobody wants to buy them for any price, because this music is already uploaded in the internet. I can't remember any of my friend with a CD player, i swear. Last time i gave a nice CD to a friend, it was a big mistake, because they don't know how to use it, i have not seen this CD since that day when i visited him. They can only copy CD to hard drive if their computer have a CDR drive, but modern computers does not have a CDR drive. This is why i think CD is dead format for people of my age and younger. 

I agree with your test results, just send me the analog rig and you can keep the digital rig......Thread can be closed now, problem solved.
:)

@chadsort -- to give you a direct answer to a question you posed earlier: yes, the Dynavector XX-2 mk.2 cartridge would be a much better choice for your tonearm than the Zu/Denon. the four main parts of the analog playback chain (turntable, tonearm, cartridge, and phono stage) need to work together as one organism. your VPI tonearm just isn't "heavy" enough to make the Zu/Denon work optimally, and your phono stage isn't loading the cartridge properly -- so that's two strikes against you, right there.

that said, since this is your first foray into LP playback, i don't think you need to go all the way to the Dyna XX-2. try a Dyna 20X2L cartridge paired with the Dyna P75 phono stage, set to "phono enhancer" mode. this will sound good and give you a taste of what a decent vinyl rig can deliver.

yes, this will cost more dough, but you've come this far already, right?

I see a good many of the 20 something's in the record stores I buy from. They are usually in my way. It's about the only place they don't look at me like I'm an antique. Just saying... 

"Digital cost nothing…"

https://www.amazon.com/Hotel-California-EAGLES/dp/B0052VI2V6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1543969607&a...

https://www.amazon.com/Hotel-California-DVD-Audio-Surround-Sound/dp/B00005T5YK/ref=sr_1_1_twi_dvd_1?...

It is about your age. Slightly more expensive digital than vinyl.

@glupson

If there are armies of vinyl-obsessed people in their teens, twenties, maybe even thirties, on these forums, could you please identify yourselves.

"Teens, twenties, maybe even thirties" have no idea what is a "forum", they are on instagram and facebook. They are also on record fairs every month (buying, selling and trading records) in my town.

We know you exist and vinyl is the only way and digital is horrible and younger crowd threw away their iPhones and Spotify and are fighting for a better place in line while waiting for a record store to open on the day of a new release.

I’m surprised to see so many digital fans in analog section of audiogon forum, but good to know.

Younger crowd actually releasing their own music on vinyl, even if the music is stupid electronic crap, but it’s on vinyl released today. Some people are serious to start their own lable to release 300 LPs of each album or even less on 45s. Most of them does not have any pressing plants in their own country (if they are not in the USA, Germany, Italy, Czech...) Many young people definitely obsessed with vinyl, not all of them, but artistic people, djs, musicians, and even old audiophiles too.

Wal-Mart in the USA may open vinyl department in all of the stores very soon. In fact, given the incredible resurgence of interest in vinyl, Wal-Mart is already too late to the party. And party is full of early twenty-somethings, and not of the crowd who knew nothing better than records in their youth.

I’m 42 and i don’t care about digital music at all, as i said i know nothing better than vinyl and i don’t know any reason to stop buying records. Digital is just a free bonus to watch free movies, to chat, to take digital pictures, to discover music online just to buy it on vinyl later. In fact digital world helps me to find and buy whatever record i want quickly in one click from any part of the world (for this reason i love digital pretty much). If i can buy any vinyl record quickly and easily then why do i need it in digital?

People normally are more serious about something they have to pay for, records for example. They don’t need a bad record if it cost something. Digital cost nothing and people download or streaming tons of information, tons of crap for nothing. My theory is quality not quantity. I only buy record if i really like the music. My obsession is vintage vinyl (mainly 70's, originals)

Elizabeth, if you read between the lines most of us are already "geezers", including yours truly.

Presently, I'm discovering a record collection that I didn't even know I had; mostly in the form of records I had written off, but after a number of upgrades, they're sounding pretty good.

Enjoy the music.

You’re preaching to the wrong choir. I am a true believer in cassettes and their superiority to digital in almost every way, but especially dynamics, which is rather ironic since the big selling point for CDs from the very beginning was their hugely superior dynamic range. Cassettes are also much more realistic and richer in tone imho. But, hey, to each his own. You can cover it up with sampling and bits arguments until the cows come home. 🐄 🐄 🐄 Tape is a natural medium. It breathes.

Analog is so very un-economical that it's only worth the price to people who had large record collections when CD's came on board. Although they initially went to CD's, all the fuss about LP's aroused their curiosity.

Since they already had the software, which was half the battle, they rationalized, why not go the rest of they way, even though they knew it was going to cost more than any so called "starter" crap, to hear the LP magic.

Now they're hoping to get young people into the game; why, I don't know, but the absurd economics of hearing the magic will stop that; unless you're talking the ubiquitous "starter analog".

I understand the argument. The argument is incorrect IMHO. No offense.

Granted, Geoff? Granted what? 

Granted Geoff, but that was probably one loose cannon. ;)
I’m no expert but I think the thrust of the argument is that SNR & resolution are correlated and that one can be used to “estimate” the other?
Members here appear to have applied this yardstick as a rule-of-thumb.

If there are armies of vinyl-obsessed people in their teens, twenties, maybe even thirties, on these forums, could you please identify yourselves.

We know you exist and vinyl is the only way and digital is horrible and younger crowd threw away their iPhones and Spotify and are fighting for a better place in line while waiting for a record store to open on the day of a new release. Due to popular demand, Wal-Mart in the USA may open vinyl department in all of the stores very soon. In fact, given the incredible resurgence of interest in vinyl, Wal-Mart is already too late to the party. And party is full of early twenty-somethings, and not of the crowd who knew nothing better than records in their youth. Nothing existed. Not nothing better, nothing at all. And then dinosauri got extinct...

orpheus10,

"That link with the charts confirms precisely what I posted 12-03-2018 9:44 AM, but nobody agreed with me."

For the record, I could not agree with you more. It is only that I have not found the way to get into your account and sign your post. I agree with it to that extent.

Lol....  what you talking about Willis :) 

That link with the charts confirms precisely what I posted 12-03-2018 9:44 AM, but nobody agreed with me. That confirms another one of my suspicions; we have a lot of "geezers" on this forum who are guilty of wishful thinking, and they express their wishful thinking thoughts.

moonglum, thanks for the link. I’ll pass. 😃 If memory serves bits is related to resolution, not SRN. 

@maplegrovemusic 

My experience is with Adam Audio , f7 , A7x , A8x and Classic column , and ATC .
The first time I set up a pair of Adam a7x and shuffled through my library I was blown away by how every song that played was listenable . Gone was the desire to skip to tracks that sounded pleasing . Everything track was a new experience . Definitely do not agree about lack of bass but just the opposite experience . The lack of distortion is something to be said for , Turn up the volume to realistic sound levels and the sonic landscape does not change but only increase in volume . Holy grail stuff in my book

Bookshelf does not reproduce bass well, there is a bass of course, but when you will add an active sub you will realize what you're missing with bookshelf speakers of small monitors. I know that because i sold my Dynaudio SUB-300 to a friend who is a producer, in addition to his Dynaudio Active monitors and Genelec Active monitors the sub is a must have for music makers as a part of studio monitoring if a person is limited to nearfield monitors only.

Surely Rey Audio Kinoshita does not require subs, but they are bigger than most of the living rooms or studios of the music makers :)  

Personally i don't like speakers/monitors with crossover, i love extremely sensitive full range floorstanding speakers like Zu Audio Druid (101db efficiency). Zu does not have a crossover, only high-pass filter for super tweeter.  Even 2 watts amp is enough to drive 101db full range drivers.  Anyway, this is just my home stereo. 

When i think about monitors with full range drivers only Tannoy comes to my mind. 

Geoff,
This may help....

https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/analogue-bit-rate-equivalent.137873/

Cheers,

glupson, I have the Pro-Ject RCM and the Vinyl Styl system.  I typically use them in series.  I plan to pickup an ultrasonic RCM after the holidays.  Still doing some research.

Whatever. It’s still not bits. Sampling rate doesn’t translate to bits, even if you’re correct about sampling and tape, which I’m not so sure about.

Following this thread, I am surprised how popular VPI is. It seems that all of you have (at least) one.

Coincidentally, I was doing a record cleaning session yesterday and was playing some vinyl I hadn't heard in a while. I was struck by how "right" it sounds.

Flescher
I’ve read that the analog LP only captures 12 or 14 bits of information but in pure wave form. Digital captures sound at different bits and depth. Somehow, they both sound natural and high resolution on my system and some of my friends systems. They each have their own plusses and minuses.

>>>>>Huh! How can analog capture only 12 or 14 bits of information? It’s not digital. Furthermore, most digital media has an analog source (tape).

Fleschler, I agree with you that there is no standard or certification meeting a certain level of sound quality.  Other than labels such as Blue Note Records, record quality can be all over the place.  If HD Vinyl ever becomes a reality it may establish a standard much like digital audio.  

I have the Frank and Jobim album with the Girl from Ipanema which I think sounds awesome.  Tonight I will give it a listen for imagining and soundstage. 

iamhe I’ve read that the analog LP only captures 12 or 14 bits of information but in pure wave form. Digital captures sound at different bits and depth. Somehow, they both sound natural and high resolution on my system and some of my friends systems. They each have their own plusses and minuses .

Many of us can relate to Frank Sinatra Capitol recordings.  The LPs varied tremendously from one mastering to another, one pressing to another.  I have five copies of Only the Lonely, only 1 sounds mellow with Frank's voice warm and centered.  The others vary from bright to dull.  On CD, the early Capitol 16 bit basically copied the best of the original LP mastering, a little less resolving.  The 24 bit Norberg set has Frank swimming in reverb and dulled the transients using excessive noise suppression.  The  20 bit British set has Frank way out in front of the orchestra, warm and loud.  What a mess the latter two recent remasterings are.  

As to CDs being worthless, my Marston and Romophone CDs of extremely rare "78s" are not available or downloadable and strictly copyright enforced.  The original discs are rare, difficult to manipulate for playback as to e.q., speed as well as stylus type.  Historic recordings have hugely benefited from gifted mastering engineers and modern digitial equipment.  I consider an $18 CD with 24 tracks of $100 to $1000s discs properly remastered a real bargain not to be duplicated in the future.

P.S. I am sorry to inform everyone, but even CD pressings from the same plant can sound very different just like LPs.  I don't know why a glass mastered CD should sound different when stamped but they often do.  Let alone completely different materials (Japanese versus U.S. like vinyl formulation differences).

Elizabeth, I have 7,000 78s and about 1,500 CDs from 78 sources.  They sound great performance wise and often with great mid-range and dynamics (especially the electricals).  For 78s, I use my old VPI 19-4 with an ultracraft 400C arm and a grado 78 cartridge, Marantz 7T pre-amp and VPI SDS speed controller.  Truly enjoyable experience but with added effort.  As to well transferred, remastered 78s on CD (also LPs), by guys like Marston, Hardwicke, Obert-Thorn, Andreas Meyer, etc., well there's often gold in the sound as well as performances worthy of them.  I've had a friend/Cal Tech engineer (departed) who were able to play early acoustic 78s with the correct stylus and e.q. on a huge horn system sound like 50's mono LPs.  Truly amazing and exciting.  

My own system has well mastered/pressing 50/60s LPs sound just more lively than well remastered CDs.  But, the CDs can stand on their own for enjoyment  (VPI TNT VI/SME IV/Benz Ruby 3... versus EAR Acute CD player).  I have 25,000+ LPs in my collection.  Each evening, I start with a CD and end 2 hours later listening to CDs, or start with an LP and end up listening to LPs at the end.  78s are a pain to play.  I'm thinking of buying a Simply Vinyl Sugarcube wo copy them to digital without the surface noise (especially with cheap shellac 78s).

I like to inject some hard data into these debates. Check out this link to data about sales of various formats:

https://www.riaa.com/u-s-sales-database/

If you look at the two charts on this page, it’s clear that over the last 45 years digital has outsold vinyl by far, measured in units or $ amount sold, and streaming is the growing format, not vinyl. And digital didn’t even exist for 10 of those 45 years. It looks like cassettes have outsold vinyl.

I’m not putting vinyl down. If someone likes vinyl better than digital, that’s fine. Enjoy the searching, buying, cleaning, tweaking, flipping, large covers, smell and sound to your heart’s content and feel free to tell us how much you enjoy it. Same with digital. If you like to have access to millions of albums on your tablet or enjoy the sound of a well recorded and mastered CD, SACD or download, enjoy, enjoy, enjoy. It’s all good.

@chakster  Well let's see . Dynaudio , ATC , Adam , PMC, Off the top of my head all make speakers for the home environment . Same drivers used in the studio speakers , but nicer cabinetry for the home models . So these aren't meant to be listened to for pleasure ? 

My experience is with Adam Audio , f7 , A7x , A8x and Classic column , and ATC . 
The first time I set up a pair of Adam a7x and shuffled through my library I was blown away by how every song that played was listenable . Gone was the desire to skip to tracks that sounded pleasing . Everything track was a new experience . Definitely do not agree about lack of bass but just the opposite experience . The lack of distortion is something to be said for , Turn up the volume to realistic sound levels and the sonic landscape does not change but only increase in volume . Holy grail stuff in my book . 

"I bet everyone would love to have a turntable and vinyl collection of the favorite albums..."

That is a bit of a stretch. People do not even have favorite albums these days, much less are they interested in collecting them on vinyl in any number significant for anything except theoretical debate about marketing power. I know exactly zero people interested in having a collection of favorite albums on vinyl. I know one youngish lady (late 20s) who was very excited to buy a record player. She put it in her wish list on Amazon. A little $80 machine. She has no records and is not really planning to start buying them. She wants a record player because it looks cool and she wants to be cool. That is in her words, not mine.

What the heck, even I am not interested in having a collection of my favorite albums on vinyl. And I actually have it and have just (this morning) bought yet another copy of Exile On Main St. (half-speed master) on vinyl which is far from my favorite album anyway.

Those youngster LPs will find the way to thrift shops, once the urge to be cool gives way to reality of life and fitting the crib in the room becomes way more important than impressing some new companion.

@maplegrovemusic

Very low distortion in those monitors, Amps built into the speakers , Nice cost savings

Which active monitors are you talking about ?
Genelec, Yamaha, Dynaudio, Adam ?

They are designed to make music, not to listen to the music, not to enjoy the music. These monitors does not reproduce bass and reguired an active sub.

If anyone can make a track sounds good on awful sounding classic Yamaha NS-10 near field passive studio monitors then it will sound good on any speakers. But it’s not easy. For regular listening sessions studio monitors is very bad idea.

Nice bookshelf studio monitors cost more than some audiophile speakers.

I think there is nothing wrong to buy some high efficiency speakers and low power amp even to start with something hi-fi, but not pro audio (if you’re not a music producer).

I’ve been to pro audio myself for years until i re-discovered what is hi-fi and why it’s much better. Some of my friends makes music, but i’ve never found nearfield active studio monitors they are using (like Genelec) to be pleasant for normal listening. Small monitors are just a pro tool for production.

Going the pro audio route to start is pretty smart . Very low distortion in those monitors, Amps built into the speakers , Nice cost savings , For the price of what some spend on wires here,they are full on in the game listening to great sound .