Turntable Decision

Heard all three in the same system - SOTA easily has the most potential, and sounds the best of those 3. Also the isolation from footfalls etc with the Sota is far far superior. Its a no brainer.

My bias is the SOTA because i have ( ugh this dates me… ) something like 35 + years experience, happy experience.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/3803#&gid=1&pid=12

If you are thinking new, best order and get in line. Buddy just ordered w Eclipse and i think it is 5 months or so to delivery.

A used table, i would and did have routed to factory for inspection and a host of potential upgrades. My other table is a Brinkman on a Bardo on an HRS base. 

Anyway i can help, just reach out.

jim

+1, Sota

+4 on the SOTA Sapphire (of course I have one, used).

Having owned turntables from each of the companies you mentioned I am happy to announce that everyone above is absolutely correct. I myself have a Sota Cosmos Vacuum coming hopefully next week. I have waited 8 months.
The Sapphire is IMHO the absolute best value in turntables available today. No other turntable gives you as much performance for the dollar and it will outperform turntables costing 3 to 4 times as much. The only issue with the Sapphire is that tonearm choice is limited. The Schroder CB fits perfectly. Origin Live arms fit but their customer service is not good. The SME IV and V fit perfectly if you can find good used units. Check out smetonearms.com  The Kuzma 4 Point 9 will fit as will the Stogi Ref. 

If money is an issue stick with the standard motor. You can upgrade to the Eclipse drive down the line if you get the itch. You will need a reflex clamp and the dust cover is so good it is mandatory. 

Buy direct from Sota. They will mount your arm for you. Talk to Donna Bodinet. 

The Sota will be fine in either system, your choice. 

Thank you all for such great feedback!

@milostyn -regarding tonearms, I have a supplier offering the Sapphire with a Jelco TS-550S arm. Your thoughts?

Gareents, Donna Bodinet just sent me this very recent review on a Nova which is very similar to the Sapphire.  http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0321/SOTA_Nova_VI_Vinyl_LP_Turntable_Review.htm

The Jelco was a great tonearm for the money. It is quite serviceable and I can not think of a better arm in that price range. But, I is not an arm I would buy. Why? I do not like removable head shells. I want one wire from cartridge to phono stage with two contacts only, one at each end. I prefer a straight vs "S" shaped arm. They are stiffer and have less inertia as a rule. The Jelco is a stable balance arm. I prefer a neutral balance arm as the VTF does not change with elevation. I like to see the vertical bearing at record surface level. This minimizes warp wow and results in more stable pitch. The 4 Point 9 is such an arm as long as you hardwire it's interconnect instead of using the DIN plug. It is quite a bit more expensive than the Jelco but over $1000 less expensive than the Schroder CB or Reed 2G. If you can absolutely not afford more than the Jelco I would give the Rega RB880 a good look. The Kuzma would make a noticeable improvement over either the Jelco or Rega arms. You can always install new arms in the future. You get a new arm board from Sota and start fresh.

the key question is the budget……

Yes the Kuzma is and should be a darling, $$$$$

@gareents

I know @mijostyn does not like removable headshell’s, but I prefer them as I can swap out easily for my mono cart when need be. I bought a Jelco 850 MKII from a recommendation by @noromance here on agon for my Sapphire. The 850 and 950 Jelco’s are much different than the earlier 750/550’s, etc. as they have a balanced ‘knife edge’ bearing. I like mine, and it was about $1,400 new. But, good luck finding an 850 or 950 now. Personally, I would search out a 850/950 before considering a 550/750/etc. arm.

Alternatively, in that price range, there are now better and more available arms, like the Origin Live series, or the others @mijostyn mentioned.

bkeske, I have heard to many stories of bad customer service from Origin Live. I tend to steer people towards Rega arms for that reason. The Jelco 850 is a great arm for the money but the company is out of business. If you have to have removable head shells I think the Kuzma  4 Point 9 offers the best compromise but at a significantly higher price point. I think it is worth the stretch. 

I just collected a movie from Sota showing my table set up at the test station and the read out of it's speed accuracy which was 33.333 +- .0002

@mijostyn

The Jelco 850 is a great arm for the money but the company is out of business.

Yep, unfortunately. They were out of business when I bought mine just last year too. Did not deter me. I was lucky to get mine when I did. When I’ve seen them (rarely) for sale now, many are nearer to $2,000. I found mine to be pretty easy to set up, and just so happened to fit my SOTA premium arm board that was predrilled by the previous owner.

Again, I’m very pleased with my 850 MKII, and snagged a Jelco VTA adjustable base a couple months ago while I still could. A bit quirky, but it works, and makes VTA adjustments easier than manually unscrewing the stock set screw and hoping for the best in a ‘trial and error’ method.

SOTA.  And don't skimp on the arm.  The Jelco TK-850 series of arms is excellent, but I think Jelco might have closed up shop. 

Use the Herron system.  The other system can't make up for the superiority of the Herron phono stage.

Was using a Vertere Phono1, replaced it with the JC-3+   Big improvement in sound overall.  

Having owned a LinnLP12 and an Oracle …. Might I suggest an Oracle Delphi if you want a suspended deck . Sonically much better than gyrodek or SOTA in my opinion

I would love to upgrade from my Rega Planar 3 but some of these prices are way out of my price range! Can someone recommend an affordable plate that coexists with my Denon AVR2700 with an Marantz 8005 powering my LF B&W 601 and center Kef with the surrounds being paradigms? 

Using a PB 1000 SVS sub as well. Willing to forego the speakers if I can get a better combination. But the AVR and Marantz are not going anywhere. Love the musicality of the Marantz and the HT of the Denon. To me it's the best compromise of both worlds. Just want to know the best plate upgrade and suggestions for LRC speakers. I have hearing problems in the midrange, so an efficient center would be advantages. 

@dennis041992, please start a new separate thread with your question instead of highjacking OP's question. No disrespect intended. All the replies will be pointed towards helping you. Cheers,
Spencer

@gareents , 
Another Sota endorsement here. I have a Nova VI, like in the linked review above. It's great, and Donna and team provided a great experience. Jelco's are nice arms, but I share the same concerns with them having shutdown. The 850 was one of those I closely considered, but instead bought an Audiomods Series V with micrometer tower and silver wiring(one strand from cartridge to RCA jacks. The mount using Rega geometry, as they are radically modified from the original Rega designs, in that respect like Origin Live. But Audiomods has great service and support and continue to evolve their products. Donna had no problem providing an armboard for my Audiomods arm. You can see pics of both on my system page. Cheers,
Spencer

@sbank , another happy Sound Labs/ Sota guy! Great minds hear alike:-). 

meldiscman, I owned an Oracle for a year or so. It is a pretty turntable but like the Linn LP12 it has a stability problem and it is not nearly as nice to use as a Sota. They recently added damping wells to the design and this may have improved things a bit. For a similar price you can get a Sota with vacuum clamping which takes everything to the next level. It will not flatten severe warps but most records do not have severe warps. Do this experiment. Put a test record on and place a dime under the edge of the record. Play a 1000 Hz test tone. You will easily hear the tone warble especially if your vertical bearing is above record surface level. It does not take much warping to cause very audible effects. Vacuum clamping pulls the record down onto the flat surface of the platter with rather obvious results. Perhaps sbanks will comment on this as his Nova is a vacuum version. 

of those the Sota for sure, the most neutral sounding of the bunch that will not be too much of a good thing and make for the best synergy with either system.  pick a lively neutral cartridge. 
my personal choice would be a technics G with lyra delos cart.  
the gyro is super cool though, i almost could care less how it sounds.  

Buy a used Gyro or Orbe SE. Apply all the Pedersen mods. Now you're in SME territory at a fraction of the price.

https://www.pedersensgyro.dk/home

Thanks @vinylvalet. As the lone dissenter, do you have a reason you prefer the Michell over SOTA?

Thanks for all the great input on SOTA tables. A question on arms: any thoughts on a Schick or Graham arm on a Sapphire?

gareents, watch this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rgK0YMsJXM   It will demonstrate how a tonearm should be designed and why. The only mistake it makes has to do with anti skating.
Applying this to the the Schick and Graham arms is not difficult. The Graham is out for me because it is a unipivot arm and they are inherently unstable. Graham uses a set of opposing magnets to stabilize the arm and it is most probably the best unipivot arm out there but it is extremely over priced. The Schick is too heavy, is not a neutral balance arm and it's vertical bearing is too high. Both arms have additional contacts. The Schick a removable head shell and the Graham a removable arm wand.
Arms that I really like are the Reed 2G, the Tri Planar and the Schroder CB and LT. I put the Schroder CB on my new Cosmos. Mark Dohmann designer of the Helix displays his turntables with the Schroder CB. Peter Ledermann of Soundsmith fame is big buddies with Frank Schroder who is designing an arm for Soundsmith. 

Have you concidered a Merrill Heirloom with the outer ring clamp
or an AR table ?
Vinyl Nirvana has an upgraded Heirloom for sale , 
there is also an AR that's been upgraded using Merril componets on E-Bay with an extremely  low bid !

I own a Merrill Heirloom that I upgraded the springs and motor , a RB300 arm upgraded with Incognito wiring and Expressimo weight ,
my plan is to replace the arm with an Audiomods ( someday ) .
If I were to replace the table then I'd go with a Sota with the vacuum hold down ( easier to use than the ring clamp ) .

I have owned two out of three of the tables mentioned and would agree that Sota would be the best choice.

I still use a first generation Cosmos in my second system!

Has anyone heard the new entry level SME? SME seems to be the holy grail for a lot of vinylistas.

@gareents, Agree that the Schick arms aren't the best match. I've read many comments implying that the longer versions are much preferred and you'll want a shorter arm with the Sota. The Schicks also tend to be paired with heavier vintage cartridges like the SPU series, or the Denon 103s of any vintage. 
When I discussed arms with Donna at Sota(~12/2019-1/2020 SME and Jelco were the safe/popular matches. But she was comfortable with many others & had made armboards for most.  

I've only heard Graham arms on Basis tables, so no opinion on that. 

Beyond my Audiomods V, the arms I'd consider upgrading to would be the Kuzma 4Point 9" or a Schroeder. 

@mijostyn, no I don't hear any tone warble with my vacuum hold-down, which works great with no fussing required, unlike many fiddly more expensive alternatives. But I can't recall any tone warble when I had SP10MkII w/EPA-250 arm either. I'm not suggesting anyone experiment with dimes to hear something we all want to avoid ;-) I'll take your word for it regarding the theory.
In my head, the vacuum and Reflex clamp combine to contribute to the solid ease, relaxed nature and black background from LP to LP. Hope that helps. Cheers,
Spencer

@sbank , Of course you don't here a warble with vacuum hold down. That is my point. Reflex clamping is a close second. The issue with reflex clamping is, recurrent use may cause cracking of the label and it does not work well with 200 gm records. I suggest the penny or dime experiment with a test record because it is easy to hear the warble. With music things get a lot more complicated. It is harder to hear the speed irregularity but it is there and even worse because warps are more acute than the warp you make with a dime. 

The 4 Point 9 is an excellent arm and I know for a fact Sota has installed one on a Cosmos.

Another vote for Sota. I've had a Sapphire for 23 years, and am upgrading to a Nova VI as soon as they build it. 

I've always thought of the Sapphire as pretty versatile as far as arm compatibility. I've had a classic Well Tempered arm and a Moerch DP-6, and both have sounded great (though there are clearance issues with the Moerch). For years, SME arms were the most popular, not sure if that's still the case.

I've been running a Sumiko Blackbird cartridge for years, and have loved it. It's a great tracker, very musical, and versatile enough to play anything well. 

Michell Gyrodec or if you can afford it Michell Orbe which are evergreens on which Michell always offers effective upgrades.
Moreover, thanks to the customized arms, almost all the arms on the market can be applied, they are easy to adjust and do not require adjustments over time, keeping the calibrations very stable; this is why for over 30 years I have preferred Michell to others.
As for the isolation of the feedback, no problem even installing the turntable a few centimeters from a 15 "woofer