Sadly, this database has not grown to include many samples. Interestingly, it has morphed into a discussion of motor types. And has been pointed out, the Timeline only shows one characteristic of turntable speed, namely average speed. And this may be less critical than other characteristics of speed like consistency over very short time intervals.
Halcro, I'm offering one possible explanation about why the TimeLine dash appears to change in length in the Micro video, ie. f/s speed of the video camera. I don't think of it as making excuses for video evidence. If the result is truly as you describe, do you think Syntax would have posted the video for instant criticism?
Could you explain how you conclude that it is the effect of cogging from the same video evidence, especially since Syntax has explained that the effect on the dash line is different when actually observed by the naked eye?
I have taken about five videos of my turntable and the quality of the laser dash appears different in each one depending on lighting, camera angle to the laser dash, distance etc. It is clear to me that the video evidence with an iPhone is far from a perfect method and I think the Micro video was taken with a SLR still camera that also does video.
The differences between rubber belt and thread/string drive is an interesting topic. The Techdas has a hybrid belt of sorts, which I think is a rubber coated inelastic belt, so very little stretch/creep occurs. |
"We are still hopefully awaiting the promised Timeline video for Mosins turntable
."
The trouble for most members is that they don't own a TimeLine. I do, but I don't own a camera that can video. I'm waiting for my son to retrieve his. He loaned it to a friend, and his Nikon DLSR doesn't do movies. Hopefully, it won't be too long. |
Make that DSLR. LOL
It gets better. I just found out that the video camera is a tape unit.
A promise is a promise, however. |
Hi Harold,
Cool video. Very cool turntable and tonearm. I watched the video on my iPad and I could hear the WOW. I was supposed to be able to hear it, right? I think it was most pronounced when the stylus tracked over the wave in the record rather than the eccentric motion of the record; but hearing it in person would certainly be better. I think we all own a few records like that, unfortunately. Ironically, my test record is one that has an off center hole. So when I play the pure test tones, the WOW is very evident. The WOW caused by eccentric records is not so obvious to me when playing music- as long as the record is not too bad.
And thank you Halcro for that link. Much of what he wrote I already understood; but he gave me some insight into my Sota turntable. I can see his point about how the horizontal axis being unconstrained is a bad thing on a floating sub chassis. I can see how variations in stylus drag will change the belt load/tension which will cause the sub chassis to move in the horizontal direction. That movement, no matter how slight will alter the belt tension some more. Any change in belt tension will affect platter speed. It gave me some ideas. First, I'm going to fix the sub chassis with some rubber shims and see if I can hear a difference in the rhythm and pace. If I can, then I have an idea how I might constrain the horizontal axis without fixing the vertical axis. |
Hi Tonywinsc,
I thought you might appreciate Peter's article if you hadn't read it before?
The impressive thing from my perspective....is that he wrote that article more than 10 years ago.....where visual proof of 'stylus drag' was unavailable....and most 'experts' were still confidently declaring that the sheer mass and momentum of most turntables could never be affected by the small forces of the stylus?!!
Yet Peter Moncrieff clearly declared 'stylus drag' as fact.....
Mosin.....a DSLR might sound tempting for making a video to upload to YouTube.....but a small hint.....an iPhone with direct upload is so much easier :-) |
01-19-14: Peterayer
...If the result is truly as you describe, do you think Syntax would have posted the video for instant criticism?
Could you explain how you conclude that it is the effect of cogging from the same video evidence, especially since Syntax has explained that the effect on the dash line is different when actually observed by the naked eye?
I have taken about five videos of my turntable and the quality of the laser dash appears different in each one depending on lighting, camera angle to the laser dash, distance etc. It is clear to me that the video evidence with an iPhone is far from a perfect method and I think the Micro video was taken with a SLR still camera that also does video.
I did load my very first video at youtube now, the one in the darkness. That one is the one where I thought it is probably too bad from the quality for this Datbase, but here it is clearly to see, that the laser gets the mark in every rotation and another proof of the limit capability of my pocket camera (Canon IXUS) is seen when the Timeline spins and the laser sends the light in the rotation, when the camera get it, it is round of course, but not sharp round, a little bit like an egg from the color light. Anyway, I saw the original Sutherland video, any video from your thread is easily on par with it. Even in the Sutherland video the length of the laser is not always equal in every rotation but after few revolutions it is always in the same area, too. You got it exactly right when you wrote about the camera recording ability. In reality it is even more clearly to see. Micro Seiki RX5000 + HS80 Sutherland Timeline |
laser gets the mark in every rotation Not quite...... Laser starts off under the H in the word FRUHBECK....and ends up under the letter K. Therefore the RX5000 is running fast....and that's in only TWO minutes? By the end of a record.....it would be off the page completely. Hardly competitive with the Raven's performance? And what about lifting the arm off the record to show the performance WITHOUT 'stylus drag' as is shown with the Raven? Is that a bit too revealing........? |
I had a chance to experiment this evening. I used some rubber shims to constrain the sub chassis on my turntable in the horizontal axis. My Sota has the motor fixed on the main chassis while the tonearm and platter float on the sub chassis. First, I put on my test record to check speed with the iPhone app. Speed was 5 Hz high. So belt tension must have changed. I tried to keep the sub chassis in a neutral, level position. I adjusted speed and checked WoW & Flutter with the app. I saw right away that the FFT waveform is a clean sawtooth pattern now. Before the sawtooth pattern had a lot of hitches in it. I think this is already an improvement. Speed is within 0.025%. That is an order of magnitude higher than Peter's turntable; but pretty good I think, for an open loop motor. The timeline laser mark would move around 10X faster on my table than on some others. WoW & Flutter measured 0.02%/0.03%; typical.
Listening: First, I tried "For Duke". This is a technically near perfect direct to disc record and good music too. Rhythm and Pace seemed about the same to me. The bass seems cleaner and sharper. Should I expect that to be the case?
Next, I put on Beethoven's Appassionata. This is another direct to disc cut at 45 rpm. Sounded fantastic as always. Very powerful. I was hearing some micro detail that I had not heard from this record in years. eg. I could hear the pianist take in a breath just before hitting the keys. Would you expect to hear more detail? Again, I think the lower registers of the piano had more power.
I think overall it is an improvement. It was clearly seen on the iPhone app. So next step for me is to come up with a way to constrain the horizontal axis and leave the vertical axis free. |
I just played "Muddy Waters" Original Master Recording. He convinced me. The rhythm and pace was obviously better to me playing this record with the horizontal axis constrained on my turntable. Plus, his voice on the peaks did not break up. I would have never attributed that to speed variation; but I just heard it with my own ears. I would have posted this sooner but when Muddy Waters is playing, I'm glued to my chair until both sides of the record have played out. |
Tony, Those are very interesting observations. As you may know the horizontal movement of the SME upper platter is also constrained with paddles in silicone in the towers. The vertical movement is less so I think due to the direction and design of the paddles. What you have done with the rubber shims may have a similar effect.
Do you happen to know if the last time you played these same cuts whether or not the speed was off by that 5 Hz? I ask because I listen to Muddy's Folk Singer at 45 RMP and I just cleaned the drive and platter pulleys and my rubber belt with lighter fluid and reversed the belt as per SME recommendations and measured the speed. It was off by a fair amount relative to the last speed check. I had to click the speed buttons about 6-7 times (<1Hz per click) and listened again and heard similar improvements to what you describe.
So, my point is that what you are hearing may be either a result of the restriction of horizontal movement, the correction in speed, or a combination of both. But is sounds like things are definitely improving. |
Yes, my speed was within 1.5Hz of 3150Hz before. One thing I can do is recheck speed after I remove the shims and see if it shifts down. The other thing that I found last year with the iPhone app was that the tt must run for a couple of minutes for speed to settle in. I don't know if the motor must warm up, the electronics or the platter bearing lube. |
Tony, From your description, it seems you have an older SOTA tt. So far as I know, all the later SOTA tt's have eliminated the very real problems inherent to a belt-drive design that mounts the motor on the chassis while suspending the platter and bearing. (You've described them well.) You might consult SOTA and let them "fix" it or let them tell you how to do it.
In the 90s, I lived for many years with a Star Sapphire Series III, which is built their "old fashioned" way, with motor mounted to chassis. I thought during that time that it sounded "pretty good", but I was not yet a total analog nut job, as I am now. Words cannot express how much better analog can get compared to what that SOTA SSIII gave me, in retrospect. Even my next tt, the Notts Hyperspace, with its stretchy rubber belt and weak motor, just absolutely killed the old SOTA in terms of pitch stability. The Lenco and all of my dd tt's take that to yet another dimension, adding more drive and open-ness to the music. You've gotta try it. Timeline, Shmineline. |
It is a Series III from the 90s. I think that is good advice. I will check with Sota. I had the impression that only the Cosmos features a sub-chassis mounted motor with the platter and tone arm. I also have some ideas that would be reversible, to try out on my tt to fix the horizontal axis.
This thread has been a good learning experience. I bet a number of people suspected suspended tables didn't hold speed as consistently but didn't really understand why. I knew before that any movement of the turntable due to footfalls or just pulling on the cue lever affected speed; but I didn't realize til now how much the variable drag by the stylus would affect belt tension and ultimately speed. Plus, the improvement in detail and distortion that I experienced with better speed control is an eye opener. |
I used to think it was "normal" for the pitch of a sustained piano note to waver up and down. (After all, my old AR did the same thing.) I thought it was some issue with the master tape, wow or something like that. Not! |
I am convinced that you can improve and stabilize a good turntable by the following measurements:
1) ensure you have separate isolation platforms for motor, table and flywheel
2) use a motor and pully which are in good condition and work absolutely stable (in case of older Micro designs maybe check, lubricate, exchange the transformer and/or capacitors)
3) better go for belts than threads. ensure the belts have the same distance and measure the belt tension. should be the same value for both belts
4) the VPI double motor driven by the SDS is one of the most precise and stable motor/steering combinations on the market today |
Dear Thuchan,
In principle, it might not be a good idea to mount motor, table, and flywheel on separate isolation platforms. Unless you also stipulate that said platforms should be identical in all respects and mounted on a common shelf. The issue is that if the respective platforms resonate at different frequencies, and/or if they are differentially isolated from environmental energy, then there is a risk that the motor and tt will move relative to each other. That allows tension or relaxation of the belt, alternately; not good for speed stability.
Why do you dislike threads vs "belts"? For a belt, do you recommend compliant or noncompliant? Thanks. |
Thuchan, you recommend three separate isolation platforms for motor, table and flywheel. How can one control relative movement between the three? If they move differently, would that not effect belt/thread tension and thus effect speed?
A few posts above this thread discusses the early SOTA tables that have the motor mounted on a sub chassis which is separate from the platter, so they could move relative to each other and according to some users, this caused speed issues. |
Well, not only that but the tension produced by the belt would constrain isolation effectiveness of both platforms. |
I had my turntable dismantled the last couple of days. I found some bushings at the hardware store that slip over the threaded studs supporting the main chassis. The sub chassis has holes for the studs to go through. These bushings that I found were 1mm smaller in diameter than the holes in the sub chassis. This made them a perfect fit. Where the sub chassis used to cycle up and down several times if pushed (underdamped) it now moves back to position in one cycle (critically damped). I was concerned that the sticktion was too much but using a level on the platter; the sub chassis seems to move back to the correct position every time. I have very good isolation of the whole turntable. I had developed the isolation last year which made a considerable improvement. That surprised me since the turntable is a suspended design and I thought was already well isolated.
I put my turntable back together and set it up to play this evening. After dialing in speed I started listening to some records. The iPhone app showed speed was off by 0.1Hz out of 3150Hz. WoW&Flutter at +/-0.02%. After dialing in 33 and 45 rpm I started playing some music. Right away I was bothered by the difference in the highs. I realized that they are cleaner now, which makes the highs like cymbals more apparent. It took me a couple of records to get used to them. The whole character of my turntable has changed. Nothing has been lost as far as I can tell. The soundstage is more airy. The detail and clarity of the highs are startling. Imaging is more focused. I can't say I hear a difference in rhythm and pace. I don't think speed was off by that much before. The improved speed control seems have affected more subtle things about the music. I have now experienced things that several people have said would happen with improved speed control. Constant belt tension even under micro conditions such as stylus drag is critical. I am a believer now. |
I forgot to mention that nearly all play in the horizontal plane has been eliminated. The added bushings took up that horizontal play. Corresponding to this is increased damping of motion in the vertical direction. Like I was saying- before if I pushed on the platter, it would bounce up and down for several cycles. Now it moves back to position in one cycle. |
Dear Lewm, Dear Peter,
I would like to answer you but I cannot. My ideas, thoughts and experimentation results cannot be seen the way I want it.
sorry. |
That is awesome, Tony. Congratulations on your efforts. They seem to have paid off. What you say about the highs frequencies, like what you hear with cymbals, is so true. I too was startled when I added isolation to what I thought was already a well isolation turntable design.
Could you share the information about the iPhone app? And which 3150Hz LP band do you use? I think I've missed this if you discussed it earlier. Thanks. |
It is the Dr. Feickert iPhone app. It requires a test record with a 3150Hz test tone, or now the app will also recognize a 1000Hz test tone. I happened to have a test record with the 3150Hz test tone; but Dr. Feickert's test record can be purchased at their online shop.
I think this app is excellent. Just start playing the test tone and the app will react to the tone and ask to start recording. It plots frequency versus time and has a bar at the top that helps you to dial in speed. Once you save a plot the app analyzes the data and gives you average speed, raw WoW&Flutter as well as filtered Wow&Flutter. It is easy to filter out the record's contribution to WoW&Flutter due to eccentricity of the center hole since the period is 1.8 seconds. But the app does all that for you. The filtered plot shows you raw and filtered frequency over time. For example, my record gives a frequency plot with the peaks going from 3160Hz down to 3140Hz (my test record center hole is not very well placed). The filtered line or the actual tt performance shows shows frequency right on 3150Hz with slight waves about that line. That is the +/-0.02% or -0.6HZ/-0.7Hz variation that the chart shows me.
I tried this app with my CD player too. I had a test disc with a 1000Hz tone. The app showed a perfect flat line at 1000Hz with WoW&Flutter at 0%. |
Just for the sake of argument about calibration of the iPhone's microphone. I downloaded an FFT app a few years ago. FFT is a method of analyzing a noise spectrum. It plots frequency vs. amplitude. I was at an automaker's NVH lab one day a few years back. This is a Hemianechoic chamber for measuring noise levels and frequency on a car. (If you are amazed at how quiet your car is, then I may have had a little something to do with that on one little component. If you are not too pleased with the sounds your car makes, well then someone else must have worked on that model). They had their B&K calibrated test tone source used for verifying microphone amplitude calibration sitting there. It generates a 1000Hz tone. So I turned it on and checked my iPhone's calibration (just for frequency, not amplitude). The app was dead on. These apps utilize the iPhone's internal oscillator/clock for calibration. Frequency accuracy should not be a problem for an iPhone app; but amplitude (SPL) is a different matter. I would not count on the iPhone's mic for exact amplitude measurements. |
I did lose something it turns out. After dark when the ambient noise level was at its lowest, I could hear some rumble. It is faint; but there. So the bushings are transmitting some mechanical vibration from the chasis to the sub chassis. I have some ideas to try out. I can't go back to an unconstrained horizontal axis... |
I overreacted. The last record that I played the other night must have had noisy vinyl. I listened last night and heard no rumble. I cranked up "For Duke" again. This record has dead quiet vinyl. Sounded great- saxophones and trumpets all over the room. |
I think that back in the day, a few tweakers used to disable the suspension on SOTA tt's entirely and then mount them on any of many various isolation platforms. In other words, turn a suspended tt into an unsuspended one. Let the platform do the work. |
Rather than hijack this thread some more (sorry Peter:-) I have done a write up on my turntable mod at my system page. |
VICTOR TT-81This turntable displays the same (if not better) accuracy as the TT-101..... I believe the difference in the speed accuracy and consistency WITHOUT load compared to that WITH load is of some importance....and that's why I like to see the Timeline mark playing the record compared to NOT playing..... The reason I believe it's important is that the musical waveform on the vinyl record can be quite benign on soft unmodulated passages (not to mention pauses in the musical content)...whilst with loud, heavily modulated passages...the stylus drag can be quite severe? If there is a marked difference in a turntable's performance between playing a record and not playing.....there must be a gradient in the speed accuracy when faced with benign passages as opposed to modulated ones? At any rate.....despite what opponents of DD turntables like to say about their sound and 'speed correction seeking'......there is no physical evidence of it with the Timeline which is rock solid. |
Halcro, that's an impressive video which supports your point. Clearly the DD Victors and Technics Sp10s show the best results in this limited database. It makes me wonder why anyone would listen to any other drive types and why there is not more demand for modern versions of the Victor. I suppose many people feel there are other important factors in addition to speed accuracy and consistency.
I would be very interested to see a study which examines how much speed variation is audible and then how much more can there be to become distracting. In my experience, the Timeline can show minute variations to perfect speed which I can not hear. |
Thanks Peter, I share your wonderment........ It's unusual...and refreshing.....to hear someone in the 'belt-drive camp', accepting the superiority of DD turntables...at least in relation to speed consistency and control? Before the visual proof of stylus drag and speed consistency was afforded by the introduction of the Sutherland Timeline...........most proponents of the belt-drive argument insisted that 'stylus drag' was a myth....or at least was rendered mute if the platter of the belt-drive was massive enough to create enough inertia to be unaffected by it. This has clearly been disproven. The argument was also put....and is still....that the speed-correction circuitry of the DD turntables meant that they were NEVER turning at the correct speed....but were always SEEKING and CORRECTING? This argument was a logical (if misunderstood) interpretation of the actual functioning of the correction circuits of the TOTL DD models.....and conveniently overlooked the motor controllers of belt-drive turntables and THEIR similar....but time delayed (by the belt) correction circuitry? Today, still.....you will read from experienced audiophiles how they can "hear" the effects of this speed correction circuitry in DD turntables. Funny how no listeners at my place can point out the DD Victor from the belt-drive Raven under 'blind' testing.....but boy can they tell you which turntable they prefer :-) In my experience, the Timeline can show minute variations to perfect speed which I can not hear. I agree.....but, by the same token.....as my TT-101 began suffering its breakdown this week....I could hear when the speed dropped to 33.32RPM, a speed change of .03%. So the answers to your question may indeed be complex? Ignoring subjectivity......the single most important function of any turntable I maintain.....has got to be speed accuracy/consistency. And for that...on the evidence of the Timeline.....the DD turntables reign supreme. The subjectivists can please themselves :-) |
Halcro, That is interesting. If your blindfolded friends can't identify the DD Victor from the BD Raven, but they have a clear preference for one over the other, what is it that they like? I must not understand your point.
I would also suggest that another primary function of a TT, perhaps equal or even more important than speed is the ability for it to provide a stable platform for the stylus to track the groove. This is so fundamental, that people forget about it or take it for granted. Imagine if the stylus moved relative to the groove. This function to provide the platform for a stable stylus, in conduction with the arm, is fundamental. I would also argue that the turntable must not introduce vibrations or noise to the system AND isolate it from external noise. These three functions are primarily responsible for the superior sonics of my SME and many other fine turntables. |
Peterayer,
Halcros comments are contradictory. On the one hand he believes that DD TT's are inherently superior in timing to Belt Drives. Then he states that no one can hear any difference between his belt drive Raven and the DD Victor. This would only be possible if the system itself has poor timing and cannot demonstrate the superiority of the Direct Drive.
The other contradiction in Halcro's post is that he claims that he can hear the effect of a drop in speed from 33.33 to 33.32rpm. The Raven cannot hold the correct speed as shown in his timeline test above and has a speed error that exceeds the drop from 33.33 to 33.32rpm. Therefore either the statement "no one can hear any difference" is wrong or "I can hear the speed drop from 33.33 to 33.32rpm" is wrong.
The other observation is that Halcro runs different tonearms on the 2 turntables.
Given the level of investment in his system I would not be happy if I could not hear any differences between tonearms.
I can only assume that since Halcro seems happy with the belt drive Raven which cannot hold the correct speed then he must be be a member of both the subjective and objective groups.
Peyerayer, since I prefer my Final Audio Parthenon thread drive to both the SP10mkIII and Kenwood L07D, then by Halcros definition I am a subjectivist. I am quite happy with this, because if I was an objectivist then I would simply read the musical score to attain the perfect performance as no live performance or audio system can be "perfect" and music would only exist in theory.
|
I agree.....but, by the same token.....as my TT-101 began suffering its breakdown this week... ???Say it ain't so, Halcro. I hope there are people you know who can restore it. Or, were you perhaps the one who won the ql10 on the bay last week? |
Alas Banquo......'tis true....
The TT-101 began to develop speed inconsistencies.....to such an extent that 33.33rpm became 35.78 and then 42.21......
45rpm did the same thing......
Tomorrow I take it to my Tech who is really excited having seen my photos of the innards.....
Of course he has never worked on one of these monsters.....but armed with my full manual of circuit diagrams etc from Vinyl Engine......I may get lucky?
If it happens.....I'll have him change all the capacitors as I was waiting for just such an occurrence to afford me the excuse.
It may be that 35 years is the life expectancy of the TT-101......and it's complexity may sound its deathnell?
Meanwhile....luckily....the much simpler TT-81 is standing in its place.....and sounding maybe even better than its big brother?
I will keep you updated...... |
Dear Dover, From my perch, I view the dynamic as follows: Halcro is perhaps guilty of trying to "prove" empirically the superiority of his TT101 (and maybe now the TT81), while you seem to be trying to prove the superiority of belt-drive, at least as represented by your Final Audio Parthenon (which may be one of the best of that breed). (Your puncture wound of Halcro's logic re the Raven is perhaps valid, by the way.) Your both entitled to your opinions, and both opinions are equally valid, IMO. I guess I side with you, however, on the subjectivist side; I will check the speed stability of any tt with the KAB strobe device. If speed is stable with LP in play, that's good enough speed stability for me. Then comes listening, and listening trumps other considerations.
As to your preference for the FAP vs the L07D and MK3, have you heard both of the latter in your current system with same tonearms and cartridges, so as to validate your opinion? If not (and I think not, given that the L07D has its own tonearm, for one example), then your opinion of the relative merits is just your opinion. Which is fine. |
Direct drive is not the only drive system that uses speed correction. Micro Seiki belt drive turntables and some others use speed correction on their motor if not the platter. Either way, it's still servo. Is that always a bad thing?
I don't think one drive system is superior over the others. I just happen to prefer DD for its mechanical (if not electronic) simplicity. The stylus does NOT know nor care what is making the platter spinning smoothly, precisely, and/or consistently. It's just picking up groove informations between rotations. Either way, let you ear decide.
_______
|
But when the Micro is auto-correcting, it is doing so via a mechanical system that has lots more compliance built into it (the belt) compared to any direct-drive system. Thus there is more danger that the corrective action will lag behind the moment of the occurrence of the speed inaccuracy, leading to over-correction, and thus actually contributing to the problem, rather than to ameliorate it. I don't know that this is connected to the fact that others who revere MS tt's have remarked that they do not use the OEM MS motor, preferring other motors instead. |
Syntax, I agree with your last post and do see the seeming contradiction in Halcro's comments. Having a large BD turntable which has a slight speed error which I can not hear, but which is evident with the TimeLine, I guess puts me in the subjectivist camp also. That's fine and I'm happy to be here.
The KAB does show accurate speed for my turntable, but I actually found the TimeLine to be easier and quicker to use. Not a big deal, but I do check speed about once a month, as the belts do stretch.
I am interested in Halcro's response to my my latter point about some turntable functions being of near-equal importance to speed accuracy.
Like so many threads, this one has evolved into a discussion rather than just a database of videos which for which I had hoped. |
Lewm, I dont have any preference as to direct drive, thread drive or rim drive. I prefer to make my decisions based on listening. I have owned all 3 drive types at various stages. Turntables owned and/or used in my own system include - Garrard 301/401, Townsend, Well Tempered, Sota, Oracle, Pink Triangle, Logic, Kenwood DD, Oracle, Goldmund & Final Audio to name a few. TT's with the ET2/Carnegie Model One I have heard include Townsend, Sota's ( many ), Oracle ( several ), Final Audio, Goldmund Studio ( 2 of ). I also own a Dynavector DV501 & Dynavector Nova 13D cartridge ( along with many other cartridges and arms. Incredulous as it may seem a customer here in New Zealand had up until recently a Dynavector 501/Nova 13D combination mounted on an L07D. I have run the Dynavector 501/Nova 13D many times on the Final. The same Nova 13D has since been removed from the L07D/Dynavector 501 and remounted on to an SME20 with SME V arm. With regard to the SP10mk3 I have heard Richarkrebs system many times over the past 30 years which evolved from a Goldmund Studio/ET2 to the SP10mk3/ET2 - I sold him a Madrigal Carnegie Model One for his ET2 years ago. I also have to hand an SP10mk3/Technics EPA100 for extended listening. So the answer to your question is yes and no. I have heard these TT's with the same arm/cartridge combinations many times, but not so in my current system as it is always evolving. If I did not own the Final Audio, I do not know what I would buy as the nearest equivalent is the Kondo Ginga which is a derivative of the Final Audio, although the Kondo has less sophisticated speed control and a much smaller motor than my Final Audio. http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-turntable-ginga-kondo-ginga-2014-02-05-analog-italy-irwin-oh |
Halcro has just proved empirically the superiority of his Victors. His videos with 3 TAs in action at the same/different time is the most beautiful I´ve seen in hi-fi forums so far. Poetry in high fidelity turntables, and that´s pretty extraordinary. Let´s hope he will get soon fixed his good old TT101.
The speed constancy is the most important feature in TTs to produce music.
I changed from belt drive to the Salvation direct rim drive and the difference was like night and day. Mine maintains the speed stability for most of the time but does not pass the TimeLine test though, probably due to mains voltage fluctuations but that´s another thing.
The L07D is a fantastic vintage DD TT, as many here have posted, like the latest review by Dave the Messenger who praises his L07D over his heavily modded TNT.
Back to square one. We want more videos ! There are plenty of other threads for drive method/TT design discussions. |
If your blindfolded friends can't identify the DD Victor from the BD Raven, but they have a clear preference for one over the other, what is it that they like? I must not understand your point. I was referring to my previous statement
. Today, still.....you will read from experienced audiophiles how they can "hear" the effects of this speed correction circuitry in DD turntables. to make the point that hearing the artifacts of DD speed correction circuitry (aka quartz-locked) is not a factor in my listening room? And those who make such claims may be hearing things other than that which they think? :-) To clarify things for Dover
I have written many times that the actual speed of a turntable is not as relevant as the ability to maintain constant speed. Why else would the TT-101 have the provision in its controls to vary the pitch up or down in increments of 6Hz? When I wrote that I could hear the speed WOW from 33.33rpm to 33.32rpm
this was an instantaneous CHANGE in speed. There is no way that I can tell if a turntable is rotating at 33.33rpm, 33.87rpm or 33.25rpm
..as long as there are no instantaneous variations. And thats why I believe that the extent of stylus drag exhibited by a particular turntable is important. Now the KAB strobe is an excellent device and no-one should be discouraged from using one to set the speeds of their turntables. But for Peter and especially Lew (who has been championing the KAB for years now) to suggest that the KAB is as accurate as the Timeline and/or shows the effects of stylus drag
..is simply misleading. HERE is a video showing the KAB on the Raven AC-2 both with and without stylus engaged. The speed (33.33rpm) appears identical under both conditions and could lead one to surmise that stylus drag is a myth? Contrast that to the same Raven AC-2 with the TIMELINE where stylus drag is confirmed and differs to the KAB results? Finally
.like Peterayer
.I am disappointed that this Thread on the Timeline has somewhat been hijacked by those who have contributed nothing utilizing the Timeline
.and who curiously seem to have an agenda against the Timeline? I have nothing against subjectivists (being decidedly one myself)
..but this Thread is designed to remove subjectivism from the subject of turntable speed accuracy
.and demonstrate objectively what has never before been documented? It has not been claimed that perfect speed control produces the perfect turntable
.but to actively bash a scientifically objective tool and database appears suspiciously defensive? |
Halcro, I applaud your efforts to document the effects of stylus drag to support the argument in objective terms. And your last post is very clear and a good explanation of what you are doing and attempting to show. My only criticism is that your hand-held camera moves enough as to be distracting and does make it more difficult to clearly see what is going on. Could you use a tripod to create a clearer video?
Interestingly, when I use the KAB strobe to set speed, it does show a very slight variation with the effect of stylus drag, which is why I have often said, that in my case with the SME 30/12, I set the speed with the stylus in the groove. I do understand your point that even this method does not answer the question as to what is happening with different amounts of drag and perhaps my table can not deal with that as effectively as your Victor does.
But, I will say that the KAB does show on my table the effects of drag as I have to adjust the controller about one click (1 hz or .01% or something for each click on the controller). The Timeline does show this more precisely and you have the added advantage to view the laser dash on a wall 20 feet away for extreme accuracy and the real story. I just contend that the Timeline operates at a level that is greater than the adjustability of my controller and my hearing to detect changes on this scale.
Instantaneous changes in pitch are another matter which I do not think that I hear in my system. Perhaps those with better training or ears could.
The 6Hz pitch increment of your Victor seems a bit course. Are these the increments by which you can adjust speed?
I also wish there were more videos added to this thread. It makes me question the confidence of some of those who criticize the TimeLine.
Accuracy and measurements are not everything, but I learned first hand last night how a speaker movement of 3/16th" away from the listener can alter the sound. |
Lewm, I'm not sure if the MS motor is actually auto correcting anything, but you're right about the belt affecting the sound. Set the tension even slightly too loose and it will lose control over the platter. This isn't much of a problem if you use a rubber belt but critical with thread and even with their SF-1 belt. The speed will still read correctly using a strobe but the platter is slipping undetectably. This results in a lackluster sound, vague image and loose bass, this is why you sometimes see people switching to a different motor using rubber belts. The belt tension will make or break the sound of MS tables. |
I'm pleased at your reaction Harold-not-the-barrel......
This Thread has a few videos of both DD and belt-drive turntables,,,,,enough to form an impression of their performances under load.....
What we have still to see, are Idlers and Rim-drives with the Timeline?
If you have an iPhone....it would really help us to see your Salvation direct rim-drive with the Timeline? You can upload the video directly from the iPhone to YouTube.
It really doesn't matter whether it 'passes' the Timeline test? It would be great to see exactly how it 'fails'.....as this would add significantly to the Database? |
Peterayer, I had several KAB strobe units in the past and noticed sample to to sample variations and locking at a different speed from my AC strobes, so I sopped using them. Only recently we got the battery operated Ortofon units in and again we found the KAB strobes a bit off.
Disclaimer- Ortofon dealer. |
Sorry, Henry. I may have failed to be clear about my opinion on the Timeline vs the KAB. I agree that the former is probably a more demanding standard than the latter. What I meant to say is that when the KAB is "happy", I tend to be happy too, meaning the KAB standard seems to be good enough for me.
Interesting thing happened last weekend. I invited my audiophile neighbor over to my house to listen to the Beveridge speakers I have set up as a second system in my basement. The source was my highly modified Lenco tt (slate plinth, Jeremy Superbearing, Speed dialed in from Walker Audio Precision Motor Controller). When in the course of our listening I played a 45 rpm LP, by switching the Walker from 33 to 45, he remarked that he is cursed with perfect pitch and that the Lenco sounded a tad slow on 45. We checked his judgement using the KAB strobe, with and without the stylus drag. The KAB showed without doubt that the Lenco was in fact running a tad FAST, not slow, at 45. But the speed was "constant", in that the "45" viewed via the strobe, was not wiggling back and forth, but drifting slowly in the direction that indicates overspeed. Anyway, we live and learn. (This guy owns the Timeline that I have been able to borrow on the odd occasion. His own expensive belt-drive tt is revealed by his own Timeline to be wildly variable in speed. The maker is replacing his motor controller and belt in hopes of curing the problem.) |
Lewm,
"a tad slow on 45. We checked his judgement using the KAB strobe, with and without the stylus drag. The KAB showed without doubt that the Lenco was in fact running a tad FAST, not slow, at 45"
The problem is with the KAB strobe and not your friend, it locks in slightly lower than the correct speed. Test it against better units and you'll see. for yourself that its off. |
Dkarmeli, that is interesting. It is the first I've read of variation among samples of the KAB strobe. I don't mean to defend the KAB, but I don't know anything about the Ortofon units. How do you know that the Ortofon is accurate? Have you tested it against a known reference? |
Peterayer, At one point I had 3 KAB strobes that I was using and I use and saw some slight variations of frequency setting with each one. I use an industrial grade voltage/frequency converter to control the speed and since I had AC strobes, I didn't much of it before and the variations were small nothing to be concerned about. I only got the Ortofon unit in recently and compared to the KAB it locks the speed very slightly higher. Then I compared both to the EMT 927's strobe and the Lock speed of the Air Force One and they both fell in between the lock speeds of KAB which is slower and the Ortofon which is faster but dead on with my AC strobes. The speed variations are very small and unlike your friend I don't have perfect pitch and any of those 3 speed settings work for me. |
