I wish my DP45 had speed adjustability. I would have tried to get it a bit more accurate before taking the video. |
My SME has an adjustable motor controller. The SP10 has a controller that is not adjustable. The Denon has no controller and I'm not sure about Halcro's Victor. |
Halcro,
Yes, something must be wrong with the Denon, though it actually sounds pretty
good. Thanks for posting the results of the Raven. It appears to be slightly slow.
One of the design differences with the SME is that the length of "free
belt" between the platter and motor pulley is much less on the SME. Both
tables appear to have heavy platters and robust motors. Is the Raven motor
controller adjustable?
You wrote somewhere that despite the superior speed performance of your
Victor that you do enjoy the Raven for its "musicality." Can you
actually hear a difference in speed between the two tables, or do other factors
like table/arm/cartridge differences make the speed differences too difficult to
single out? Do you hear differences in timing, drive, rhythm, clarity in transients,
etc? Which table do you prefer to listen to overall?
I don't know how many new videos will be added. I hope some are. I've heard of
various TimeLine results with the NVS, TechDas and SP10MK3, but owners may
be reluctant to share these results publicly. I'm particularly interested in results
from the Micros, the TechDas, the Saskia and some of the modern DD tables.
This test really just measure average speed accuracy. It does not tell us much
about what is happening to the platter at the moment of a large transient.
Perhaps some information can be learned from the quality and length of the
TimeLine dash on the wall and how solid and consistent it is. There is also the
issue of the weight of the TimeLine itself introducing a different load to the
system being tested. I've read that this would effect an open loop system on
some belt-drives more than the closed loop system on your Victor and other DD
tables. This is one of the primary criticisms I've read of this TimeLine device. |
Hello Tony, Those were my thoughts also. I'm using an iPhone and I don't know what the fps rate is. I'll look into it. However, I returned the TimeLine to Albert Porter on Tuesday because I had recorded the various turntables around me. I don't really notice this effect when watching live. They just look like red laser dashes blinking along.
I'm sure in a more controlled setting with an excellent microphone and professional camera, one could perhaps even hear slight variations in speed on certain recordings over the video.
I'm just hoping other upload videos to add to this database. |
Thanks Jfrech. I used to clean the belt on my SME Model 10 about once a year. I've just ordered two new belts for my 30/12 which was new in March 2012. I'll clean the belt I have in the next day or two and see if I notice a difference. I sent the TimeLine back to Albert. I just can't see spending $400 on a new one.
Your Grand Prix will be a good addition to the database. Thanks. |
Halcro,
I, for one, do not claim that a belt drive turntable with heavy platter is not subject to stylus drag. I thought I made the point quite obvious in my earlier comments. One can set the speed of the SME with no stylus in the groove. Then when the stylus is playing, the speed slows down slightly. In other words, the SME 30/12 IS susceptible to stylus drag. No one has denied this fact. I would make another video showing this with arm up and arm down, but I returned the Timeline to its owner.
I want the speed to be accurate when I listen to music with one cartridge in one tonearm playing one record. Therefore, I set the speed when the stylus is in the groove, and you see the results of that speed in my video with the TimeLine. It is 0.003% slow according to Tonywinsc who did the calculations in that other thread. The KAB is also designed to be set with music playing. In fact, Sutherland markets this as an advantage to his device, that it can be used while music is playing to check the speed.
One can also clearly see that your Victor with the three tonearms is also slightly slow because the Timeline dash does not stay centered on the blue tack. It in fact drifts to the left by about 3/8th of an inch.
There is no denying that a high torque DD table will not loose as much speed as a BD table with a rubber belt when a needle is dropped in the groove. Therefore, my recommendation is to set the speed while music is playing. |
Ketchup, I'll take you up on your offer. How do I get my email to you so that you can PM me? Thanks. |
Halcro, that new Victor TT-101/3 arms video is quite impressive. My belt
drive could not do that. I do see the value of testing with and without the arm
being in the groove. Unfortunately, my Timeline is gone so I can't retest or
shoot the video.
Your latest video seems to have much less drift than the first one (with 3 arms
but no music) linked in the OP. I wonder why that is. The drift to the left in
the first one looks like half the length of the Timeline dash so I guessed it is
3/8". The latest video drifts much less, but from about 3:15 in the
video to the end, it is clear that the TimeLine dash is no longer centered on
the blue tack but drifts to the left until about 3/4 of it is to the left of center
and 1/4 is to the right of center.
This is very minimal drift over 5 minutes. Perhaps Tony could calculate the
error if you give him the distance from spindle to blue tack and the drift
distance which looks to be about 1/8" or so.
Syntax did post a video of the thread drive Micro. I'd like to see some of the
modern DD tables like the NVS and also the BD TechDas. |
Lewm, I also thought that there is a new version of the TimeLine with more lasers around the perimeter of the device. However, I just spoke to a dealer today who confirmed with Roy Sutherland himself, that there is only one TimeLine version and that the device has not be changed since its introduction. There is only one laser on the device. It flashes at some interval to create six equally spaced dashes around the room. This description is consistent with the unit that I borrowed to make my videos. Apparently, I had the original and only version.
I have tried a digital tachometer and found that I could not get repeatable readings even while I held the device against the edge of a table and pointed the beam toward the reflective tape. It varied by an amount much greater than my KAB and the Timeline indicated, so it must be defective or I was not using it correctly. I will try it again. |
I tried using my Fieldpiece digital tachometer again last night. I tried three l locations and placed the device on a stationary platform. In each test, the device read 33.XXX but the XXX had slightly different values at each location. These speed readings did not change when I introduced stylus drag. In fact, once the 33.439 or 33.352 was fixed I could not seem to get it to change value without turning the unit off and resetting it to zero. Nor could I get it to ever repeat a reading. Both the TimeLine and the KAB show the effects of stylus drag on my turntable. Perhaps the tachometer is just not sensitive enough to tiny changes. |
Halcro, I just shared what Ron Sutherland told my dealer yesterday. I had been under the impression that there was an early version with one strobe and a new version with six strobes. That must be incorrect. So you must be saying that all versions have just one strobe. The difference is that the newer version flashes 6 times per 1.8 seconds and the earliest units only flashed once per 1.8 seconds. Is that correct? That must be why there are six dashes spread out around the room at every rotation. Thanks for clarifying this for me. |
I have just learned that the TimeLine flashes 8 times per 1.8 seconds or 8 times per one revolution. That is why there are eight laser dashes around the room at all times. I had thought it was six. So yes, if you are looking at one dash near the turntable being tested, that one dash is flashed once per revolution as there is only one laser.
Mr. Sutherland could clarify and confirm this if he joined the discussion.
The other criticism that some have raised is the weight of the unit itself. For a low torque motor, if the TimeLine weighs a different amount from the owners clamp, that might effect the speed results. Less critical for a high torque DD motor that could deal with the added or less weight.
I'd like to see more videos added to the database. |
Halcro, I just rewatched Syntax's video of his RX-5000. To be fair, I think the frame speed of his video camera is interfering with the laser flash increments. I think that is why some laser flashes are not even seen and why the dash appears to change in length. This occurs with my iPhone video as well, but to a lesser degree. I don't know the f/s spec. for the iPhone.
I think the scratching/rubbing sound to which your refer is his breathing. Inhale, exhale etc.
This thread is supposed to be a database for Timeline results and if each submitted video is criticize to the extent that you criticize Syntax's video, few members will be encouraged to add to the database. One of the problems I see with this format is that it is hard to find the videos if the links are added somewhere down the thread, but I don't see how this can be changed now. |
Sadly, this database has not grown to include many samples. Interestingly, it has morphed into a discussion of motor types. And has been pointed out, the Timeline only shows one characteristic of turntable speed, namely average speed. And this may be less critical than other characteristics of speed like consistency over very short time intervals.
Halcro, I'm offering one possible explanation about why the TimeLine dash appears to change in length in the Micro video, ie. f/s speed of the video camera. I don't think of it as making excuses for video evidence. If the result is truly as you describe, do you think Syntax would have posted the video for instant criticism?
Could you explain how you conclude that it is the effect of cogging from the same video evidence, especially since Syntax has explained that the effect on the dash line is different when actually observed by the naked eye?
I have taken about five videos of my turntable and the quality of the laser dash appears different in each one depending on lighting, camera angle to the laser dash, distance etc. It is clear to me that the video evidence with an iPhone is far from a perfect method and I think the Micro video was taken with a SLR still camera that also does video.
The differences between rubber belt and thread/string drive is an interesting topic. The Techdas has a hybrid belt of sorts, which I think is a rubber coated inelastic belt, so very little stretch/creep occurs. |
Thuchan, you recommend three separate isolation platforms for motor, table and flywheel. How can one control relative movement between the three? If they move differently, would that not effect belt/thread tension and thus effect speed?
A few posts above this thread discusses the early SOTA tables that have the motor mounted on a sub chassis which is separate from the platter, so they could move relative to each other and according to some users, this caused speed issues. |
Tony, Those are very interesting observations. As you may know the horizontal movement of the SME upper platter is also constrained with paddles in silicone in the towers. The vertical movement is less so I think due to the direction and design of the paddles. What you have done with the rubber shims may have a similar effect.
Do you happen to know if the last time you played these same cuts whether or not the speed was off by that 5 Hz? I ask because I listen to Muddy's Folk Singer at 45 RMP and I just cleaned the drive and platter pulleys and my rubber belt with lighter fluid and reversed the belt as per SME recommendations and measured the speed. It was off by a fair amount relative to the last speed check. I had to click the speed buttons about 6-7 times (<1Hz per click) and listened again and heard similar improvements to what you describe.
So, my point is that what you are hearing may be either a result of the restriction of horizontal movement, the correction in speed, or a combination of both. But is sounds like things are definitely improving. |
That is awesome, Tony. Congratulations on your efforts. They seem to have paid off. What you say about the highs frequencies, like what you hear with cymbals, is so true. I too was startled when I added isolation to what I thought was already a well isolation turntable design.
Could you share the information about the iPhone app? And which 3150Hz LP band do you use? I think I've missed this if you discussed it earlier. Thanks. |
Halcro, that's an impressive video which supports your point. Clearly the DD Victors and Technics Sp10s show the best results in this limited database. It makes me wonder why anyone would listen to any other drive types and why there is not more demand for modern versions of the Victor. I suppose many people feel there are other important factors in addition to speed accuracy and consistency.
I would be very interested to see a study which examines how much speed variation is audible and then how much more can there be to become distracting. In my experience, the Timeline can show minute variations to perfect speed which I can not hear. |
Halcro, That is interesting. If your blindfolded friends can't identify the DD Victor from the BD Raven, but they have a clear preference for one over the other, what is it that they like? I must not understand your point.
I would also suggest that another primary function of a TT, perhaps equal or even more important than speed is the ability for it to provide a stable platform for the stylus to track the groove. This is so fundamental, that people forget about it or take it for granted. Imagine if the stylus moved relative to the groove. This function to provide the platform for a stable stylus, in conduction with the arm, is fundamental. I would also argue that the turntable must not introduce vibrations or noise to the system AND isolate it from external noise. These three functions are primarily responsible for the superior sonics of my SME and many other fine turntables. |
Syntax, I agree with your last post and do see the seeming contradiction in Halcro's comments. Having a large BD turntable which has a slight speed error which I can not hear, but which is evident with the TimeLine, I guess puts me in the subjectivist camp also. That's fine and I'm happy to be here.
The KAB does show accurate speed for my turntable, but I actually found the TimeLine to be easier and quicker to use. Not a big deal, but I do check speed about once a month, as the belts do stretch.
I am interested in Halcro's response to my my latter point about some turntable functions being of near-equal importance to speed accuracy.
Like so many threads, this one has evolved into a discussion rather than just a database of videos which for which I had hoped. |
Halcro, I applaud your efforts to document the effects of stylus drag to support the argument in objective terms. And your last post is very clear and a good explanation of what you are doing and attempting to show. My only criticism is that your hand-held camera moves enough as to be distracting and does make it more difficult to clearly see what is going on. Could you use a tripod to create a clearer video?
Interestingly, when I use the KAB strobe to set speed, it does show a very slight variation with the effect of stylus drag, which is why I have often said, that in my case with the SME 30/12, I set the speed with the stylus in the groove. I do understand your point that even this method does not answer the question as to what is happening with different amounts of drag and perhaps my table can not deal with that as effectively as your Victor does.
But, I will say that the KAB does show on my table the effects of drag as I have to adjust the controller about one click (1 hz or .01% or something for each click on the controller). The Timeline does show this more precisely and you have the added advantage to view the laser dash on a wall 20 feet away for extreme accuracy and the real story. I just contend that the Timeline operates at a level that is greater than the adjustability of my controller and my hearing to detect changes on this scale.
Instantaneous changes in pitch are another matter which I do not think that I hear in my system. Perhaps those with better training or ears could.
The 6Hz pitch increment of your Victor seems a bit course. Are these the increments by which you can adjust speed?
I also wish there were more videos added to this thread. It makes me question the confidence of some of those who criticize the TimeLine.
Accuracy and measurements are not everything, but I learned first hand last night how a speaker movement of 3/16th" away from the listener can alter the sound. |
Dkarmeli, that is interesting. It is the first I've read of variation among samples of the KAB strobe. I don't mean to defend the KAB, but I don't know anything about the Ortofon units. How do you know that the Ortofon is accurate? Have you tested it against a known reference? |
Thanks Richard. If this is using the thread drive and I presume a vey heavy platter, I'm surprised by the result. |
Yes, early on I did receive some private emails suggesting that a few more people would try to upload videos, but this has not happened. I think the test can be quite revealing of one aspect of a turntable's performance, and it is a shame that not more people want to add videos.
I friend just bought an SP10 MK3 and perhaps he will let me film it. I have another buddy with a TW Raven.
The thread drifted into other subjects and became more than just a video database and this might have halted the momentum. |
