Turn down the Volume!

My systems can sound articulate and engaging at extremely low levels and can also play at extremely high levels or anywhere in between without strain thermal compression and with very very low distortion because most are all front horn-based.

@johnk Many with horn systems have said that low volume is still satisfying. I have experienced a horn system that was actually much louder SPL than it 'seemed' - do you measure or go by ear?

I have experienced a horn system that was actually much louder SPL than it 'seemed' - do you measure or go by ear?

for spl’s always measure... the ear can be fooled by small differences

many an a-b comparison is plagued by being sloppy on this front... level matching is essential

@dain +1 on jjss49. I suspect what you heard was superior micro dynamics of horn system at low volumes. Extreme high efficiency of many horns makes them come alive at much lower volumes with extremely low power amps. Amps in sweet zone at amazingly low wattage, and easily moved diaphragms at this same amazingly low wattage in horn drivers are reason for this. My Klipschorns and SET amps excel by leaps and bounds over my acoustic suspension speakers with same amps, in this regard.

Especially at night, I found I often control the volume below 55-60 dbA. With sub turned on, I could even lower the volume down to 50 dbA because the missing low end is mitigated.

Since my home is situated on a 1/3 acre property and there are copious amounts of insulation in the walls and ceiling, I am fortunate enough to need not worry about bothering the neighbors with my music. This was, of course, by design.

When I’m busy with other things, background levels are fine, as lower volumes don’t pull my attention away from whatever task is at hand. But when I’m relaxing in my listening chair and focused on my music, I prefer an average SPL in my room that produces a lifelike representation of the recorded instruments and vocals.

The graphic below is a frame grab of a jazz piece played back at my usual "focused" listening level using Z-weighting (essentially unweighted, so a more accurate reflection of the actual overall volume in the room without compensation for the nonlinearities human hearing). A-weighting would have resulted in values about 20 dB lower.

For those who can’t decipher the banner text in each quadrant of the image:

• Linst = Instantaneous SPL
• Leq = Average SPL during the measurement run
• Lmin = Minimum SPL during the run
• Lmax = Maximum SPL during the run

The dynamic range is indicated by the difference between the Lmin and Lmax values

That’s why they are called loudspeakers!   There are times to listen quietly and times to crank it up!   There you go, 2 sentences. Sorry, three, oops,  now four.  Fuuuuuu#cck!

it's simple - the secret is to use BIG speakers, but listen at a low volume (you need a good active preamp) ... get a powerful rich quiet sound ...

small speakers will not give such an effect - they cannot push air - they "pierce" it like a needle

in audio - everything was invented a long time ago))) there is almost nothing new

(RIGHT ROOM) VOLUME (RRV).
 

Get the volume set right THEN NEVER CHANGE IT  Yup you read that right, once it’s set for a particular source you don’t change irrespective of the type of music.  RRV as I call it should become de facto but if isn’t  

As the OP points out this a rarely discussed issue BUT IT IS CRUCIAL to your listening enjoyment. 

I opened a similar discussion on another forum, which claims to know ‘what’s best’. They piled in. Couldn’t handle my reasoned arguments. The forum owner even challenged me to post some decibel readings coz he wouldn’t accept I was doing it right AND playing at decent sound levels, even in a small room. So I took his challenge posted three readings … and the coward backed down and closed the thread.  What a woos!

So yes RRV challenges the norm. But boy does it work.  Dial in your RRV and never touch that volume button again. Just enjoy the music. 

Even in my twenties I didn't like to have a stereo be so loud you couldn't hear someone else speak. All those decades later, I can't handle loud volume, period. 

Re this: "To me, one of the most important subjective measure of a system is how it sounds at low volume."

@larryi, how right you are! I've listened to low volume music while working in home office for 25+ years. I've had a number of systems over that time. I found that sealed/acoustic suspension designs + a subwoofer play better at low volume than ported designs. Never heard horns, ribbons, or other high efficiency designs, so can't comment on those.

At least in my home office, I get terrific low volume sound from either the ATC SCM 12 Pros or the vintage KEF 103.2s. And with either pair of speakers, on those occasions when I feel like cranking it, the walls shake.

Great sounding low listening levels are desirable if you want to call your system high-end. I'm going to get pissed if I have to play loud levels just to enjoy my music although some music begs to be played louder. Basically it should do both very well.

@mijostyn --

What about the rest? Every little detail is important, some more than others. ...

I didn't address my question about "the rest" to you, but rather aimed it at a general tendency in audiophilia to be less invested in a range of core parameters (i.e.: the rest) like dynamics, scale, size of presentation, ease, etc. 

I stated exactly what accurate is and it is a target to shoot at, a reference point. Although our audio memory stinks those of us who frequent live events on a regular basis and are paying attention usually have a good idea what accurate is even though we can not define it. We know when we hear it. 

You somehow got the derogatory idea about Mr. Turnbull's setup, through Mr. DeVore descriptions, that is was merely "enjoyable" sounding to the ears of a novice audience who were easily impressed, and opposed it with the more desirable high-end trait of "accuracy." I just found it a reductive remark and an odd takeaway from the video. Listen to what John has to say from 10:07:

The interesting observation I have made over the years is most people, even those who are not HiFi addicts know when they hear it.

Exactly; why would the ones who heard Mr. Turnbull's setup be less right in this regard?

@phusis , that is a very valid question which has a very politically difficult answer. Many people already think I am an arrogant SOB and from their perspective I am and nothing is going to convince them otherwise. So, in short,  Mr Turnbull's system is not even remotely close to accurate. This is not saying that it is not pleasing to listen to. I have spent decades listening to my own pleasingly inaccurate systems. The people who are listening are surprised a small system like that can sound so good, the Bose Effect. When presented with a current SOTA system you get comments like "G-d, it sounds like you are there!" "I have never heard anything like this before." I never knew a system like this existed" and so forth. You get the impression of a true sense of wonder. Does a system have to be really SOTA to generate this sort of reaction? No, but it is a good indicator. 

It all comes down to experience. Most audiophiles have not worked in the business and are busy with their own jobs and life. They have minimal exposure and very few systems are capable of the kind of performance I am talking about which again does not mean other systems are not pleasing to listen to. I worked in an ultra high end store and in my own experience I have only heard three systems that reached this level of performance. 

I agree with @mijostyn I OWNED an ultra high end dealership I also produced and mixed multi million selling records.

VERY VERY FEW SYSTEMS come close to conveying the music even remotely accurately, and playing at low volume will not IMO get you there

The RRV needs to be set correctly, that’s a first, then it’s down to so many other factors starting with the amp, the heart and soul of every system

Im fortunate enough to having experienced audio nirvana and I can assure you it’s awesome. Pure utter joy.

@onlyqualityhifi , thank you for responding. It always helps to have backup. People in the business never want to upset people as they might lose business. They won't lie, they just won't tell you the truth. This comment does not apply to the snake oil venders. 

As I have state in the past, every recording has a "right" volume. I have always thought that this had to do with the volume it was mixed at as our frequency response changes with volume. Do you think this is correct? 

The first time I heard a seriously well set up system my jaw must have dropped three feet, frisson every minute. It took me 30 years to better that system and I still have a few problems to solve.

Another note. It is not just the equipment but also how the equipment is use and the room it is placed in. 

@mijostyn Hi, no. Its NOT correct. The RRV when set correctly is right for EVERY recording. Many will disagree. I cant help that. 

Also you cant set RRV accurately with a stepped remote. Its not accurate enough. The RRV needs precision.

I HAVE the best system ive ever heard and boy have I heard a few.  Many are literally reduced to tears when they hear.  Oh and its in a small REALLY crap room. So yes. The room affects but not as much as you may think. Well not in my set up. Certain amps ‘take out’ the room’s affect. 

I HAVE the best system ive ever heard and boy have I heard a few. Many are literally reduced to tears when they hear. Oh and its in a small REALLY crap room. So yes. The room affects but not as much as you may think. Well not in my set up.

Im fortunate enough to having experienced audio nirvana and I can assure you it’s awesome. Pure utter joy.

I OWNED an ultra high end dealership I also produced and mixed multi million selling records.

i think kenjit’s uncle has signed in...

Anything to add to the convo @jjss49 

@onlyqualityhifi , What do you mean by RR Volume?

All recordings do not sound best at the same volume. Playing a string quartet at the same volume as a live rock concert would be a little silly and quite painful.

They do @mijostyn as long as you set the RRV correctly. Yes even a string quartet vs a rock concert.  You just get more headroom. Its revealing to hear but most rewarding 

its the best kept least understood audiophile secret. 

@onlyqualityhifi , I would like to know what RRV means!

Sorry I thought I explained it.  Its the very precise setting for the  volume at which a particular source plays in your listening environment. Once its set you NEVER change it for your chosen source.  All play now at the RIGHT ROOM VOLUME. The RRV. 

@mijostyn 

+1

Thanx @onlyqualityhifi. That might be true for studio monitoring situations. I am no expert in that. But, in home situations that is certainly wrong and it does not matter which source I am using. It is certain that modern recordings are much more consistent than older ones. It is also certain that I listen to much less of the room than is usual. To my ear various recordings sound best at wildly different volume settings especially when jumping genres. If you try to set one volume level, calibrated for each source, some recordings are going to sound dull and others too bright. There are too many variables that play into this for one volume to work, from the mics used to the settings of the recording engineer. Then you are off to the mixing engineer and finally production of the source material, records, CDs and so forth. All involve setting levels.  The quality of the home system including the room also play into this. Systems that tend towards sibilance can be uncomfortable to listen too at higher volumes. 

An interesting aside. In the past I always thought sibilance was just a fact of life and you always had to live with some of it. The instinct is always to turn the volume down. This is not true. Over the years as my system improved sibilance became progressively less of a problem until now when I rarely have an issue with it. My volume levels have also steadily increased. It is not because or presbycusis either although I have a small amount. I certainly hear it in some systems and not others. 

I understand your response and I respectfully and entirely DISAGREE. RRV works for every piece of music from the same source.  ‘Softer’ music if you wish to call it that just has more headroom more room to breath.  
 

I play ALL music at the same volume, the RRV, and the magic is always there. 

@onlyqualityhifi 

I have no idea where you come up with your ideas… but in no system that I have owned in the last fifty years has that been true.

@sns  My favorite time to listen is at 1-2am with snow falling and at least 5" on the ground. Ambient noise is very low and everything sounds fantastic!

@ghdprentice duly noted. And sorry your 50 years quest has failed. I’m pleased to say mine hasn’t. 
 

enjoy the music. 

@onlyqualityhifi 

I think most of us would appreciate it if you would create a system profile and post details and pics.

I'm glad this discussion is still going on, I've learned a lot from you all participating, and after viewing this, I think it explains the entire puzzle of why some recordings don't sound right at whatever volume you choose to listen at. Happy viewing, oh for those in a hurry, everything is due to mastering. 

@ozzy62 I spend most of my time enjoying the music. As you will have noted I don’t post much- anywhere.  Just not enough hours in the day

Suffice to say I have produced mixed and mastered multi million selling records. I also owned multiple high end hifi-home cinema stores. 
 

I spent my life in music and my system has been lauded by many a hifi professional - manufacturers inventors journalists music professors and of course just music lovers. 

I tried explaining RRV buts it’s fallen in deaf ears so quite frankly I’m wasting my precious time trying to convince. 
 

let’s just say IM CONVINCED about RRV and boy have I tried not to believe it so. But it is. So theres. that. 
 

@onlyqualityhifi 

That's all well and nice. But if you make such an assertion as you did, you'll get far more people willing to entertain the idea if they know what equipment you are using for music playback. You might not accept this, but it's true. Everything needs a point of reference.

@ozzy62 , I agree in part but the largest variable in effect is impossible to qualify by description and that is the room. Even if you are totally familiar with the equipment used if you have not heard it in that installation you can have no idea what it sounds like. But yes, if the person is using a Bose table radio things do not sound so hot. 

@mijostyn Agree about the room. But pics of the system AND room could be helpful. I am having a hard time grasping the concept of listening to "girl with guitar" music at the same level as I would The Screaming Females.

@ozzy62 , Me also. 

One of my "pet peeves" is when we go to a venue and the sound reinforcement engineers have the volume so high, that the room won't accommodate it.  You see someone singing into a mike, but can't hear them, you see someone playing a horn into a mike, but you can't hear that either, etc.

I must admit, when some of my music buddies come over to audition my audio system, they DO play the music at a volume level a bit higher than I find "comfortable", but not at the level you find at many live performances.

One of my "pet peeves" is when we go to a venue and the sound reinforcement engineers have the volume so high, that the room won't accommodate it.

Me too.