I just "upgraded" from a Mac SS integrated to a Prima luna dialogue 2 tube amp. The reason that I changed amps was that i assumed that the tube amp would be a better match for my Zu Druid speakers. The amp change was a big improvment for listening through my CDP....but not so when listening to my Rega P9. I had to switch to my spare SS phono stage (Graham slee) to get it to sound right. I was using a tube phono (AES) with my Mac. In Short, my tube amp with SS phono stage is not really an upgrade from my Mac with Tube phono stage. My question is.....should i consider a further upgrade to a better tube phono pre or is it simply that a change from SS to Tube amp is more "pronounced" in digital playback?
My apologies for leaving out some crucial details in my earlier posts. I jumped onto this thread in defense of tubes, but was speaking from a device standpoint. That is, I was not arguing which type of amplifier was best, tube or transistor, but rather from a device standpoint. And with that in mind, my very offensive "blanket statement" that triodes are inherently more linear than transistors as devices still rings true. I'm sorry if that bothers anyone, but it's a matter of physics. And I can't change that. Neither can you.
Now which sounds better? Well, that's up to the listener. Each device and topology has advantages and disadvantages. We just do our best in each design given these certain limitations. In that respect, I can speak with a smidgen of authority as I have designed phonostages with triodes, opamps, and JFETs, in both balanced and single-ended configurations.
Having said that, the inherent linearity advantage of triodes merely allows a higher potential for sonics in an amplifier. Basically, they have a head start.
>>Tube problems my dear Raul are a consequence of bad design<<
I have to agree with both of you here. However, from a device and physics viewpoint, Raul stands on higher ground. Solid state electronics do indeed have a potential* reliability advantage.
(*This does not apply to missile defense radars or radio station transmitters).
The marketplace is speaking. Is the marketplace mad?
Like I said, I am not against tubes but am against using them to mask system anomalies. I think a large portion of tube equipment sales are due to this unfortunate latter use. My system is 100% solid state/monoblock based and my main amps have the 'to die for' midrange and holographic presentation of tubes along with the beef and sonic neutrality of solid state. The subwoofer amps deliver globs of highly controlled current at a very high speed.
At any rate, digital is making great strides and Dan Wright replaced his Atma Sphere amps for Channel Islands digital monoblocks. Hey, it's the 21st century!
OK maybe Atma's comments come off a bit strong, but I recently put into service an older pair of Atma-sphere MA-1's I had stopped using when I lost of bunch of output tubes. I had gone over to an excellent sounding SS modified integrated, that honestly was the most revealing, fully fleshed out and non SS sounding amp I have ever heard (Ps Audio GCC series amp with full ICE Underwood Mod- their excellence is backed up by 10audio's review.)
I retubed the MA1's thinking I should listen to them on my new speakers just for kicks, then sell them. Even though they are older models - several cuircut enhancements behind current refinements, the amps sounded so much better and had more detail than the SS. It was like going from viewing excelllent hi-res 2D image on the SS to a viewing a 3D holograph with the Atma's. A very simple instrument - a kazoo on LP played by Sonny Boy Williamson, clued me into what was happening.
On the SS the instrument was plain to hear in all it's glory, but with the Atma's there was suddenly a man playing an instrument, the skin of the kazoo resonating as a seperate event from the body sound. There were more dimensions to hear, more facets, and being such a simple instrument I believe made it easier to hear and remember the sound, as opposed to a more complex instrument, like a violin. It was quite telling.
And the speaker's impedance isn't even ideal for an OTL's range, being 4 ohms.
I don't know if all tube products possess this level of quality, but I certainly can say that Atma-sphere's do.
Rauliruegas, you can do better than that! First though you are going to have to figure out what the behavior of our amps actually is during a tube failure. So you have some homework to do. Then maybe you'll be able to create a more convincing story.
Here is the post that some of you have been waiting for... Raul did indeed audition Atma-Sphere gear at my home during his latest "American Tour", discussed elsewhere.
Raul did witness a tube failure in one of my MA1 amps; two tubes went down. Unfortunately for me, the amps were purchased second-hand and came with improper 6 1/4amp fuses instead of the recommended 5amp fuses. Additionally, a few of the tubes in the amp were old Ebay-purchased RCAs vs. the recommended Russian 6AS7s. The bad fuses allowed a DC surge to take down a woofer.
I've since replaced the woofer, the fuses, and the two bad tubes. In the interim, one other output tube failed(remember that this is a Mark 2.II amp a number of years old). The proper fuses worked correctly, and no speaker or amp damage occurred. Therefore, the comment, "The amp blew up", or "the amp damaged the speaker" is a distortion of the true cause. Given that Raul left town before I discovered the wrong fuses were in the amps, it's hard to blame him for concluding what he did, however I felt it necessary to clarify in Atma-Sphere's defense. As I type, I'm happily listening to Rob Wasserman's blistering bass work through my happy Atma-Sphere amps. Perhaps we can all get back to the music now...Cheers, Spencer
Seems like this thread really got off track. I hope the original poster got something out of it. I have but not from the original question. Its been fun.
So basically Raul misrepresented the entire episode or at the very least posted sketchy info that he had not verified. This seems to be a pattern. How can we possibly take Raul's comments as true in any of his posts? Claiming an Atma blew up and damaged a speaker when it did not is unforgivable IMHO.
The Atma did blow up the woofer. Problem is/was the Atma was not to spec. as per factory. One needs to make sure about used equipment if one wants to keep the surprise's count down. Even then there can be a surprise waiting. Put yourself in the others shoes. "smoke comes out of a device and then the second device poofs...must be the first device causing the problem." And in this case its reported as what happen by both parties. Its not even an assumption, just an underlying problem. We all need to be careful. Not defending anyone, just an observation. Peace
One of the biggest fears a manufacturer has is that of a used piece of their gear appearing on the market after having been improperly modded.
I've become quite friendly with Mike Sanders of Quicksilver Audio.
Mike is one of the quintissential examples of bullet-proof designs in terms of stability and reliability.
Some of the Quickies he sees returned to him for "minor repair" are not to be believed.
He finds so much unauthorized work having been done on his gear to "improve" it, that the poor unsuspecting purchaser is faced with seeing more work being required to rip out the guts and start from scratch than what would be involved in starting from a bare chassis.
Well, the amp didn't exactly "blow up", but because of the wrong fuses it did take out a speaker(woofer) and I doubt Spencer wanted to continue using it until he tracked down the problem. I thought Spencer's explanation revealed clearly why Raul thought what he did and is understandable. The good thing is that this is not representative of Atma's - because someone had installed the wrong fuses - and explains why Ralph and others didn't believe it. I'm assuming nobody except Spencer knew the real story and from all outward appearances it looked like the Atma's had done something terribly wrong. Thankfully, a properly fused Atma should never exhibit this behavior and I think any rational person would admit that installing the wrong fuses in an amp is likely going to lead to problems that are not inherent to the design and could lead one to think there is something wrong with the amp. So shouldn't this be chalked up as a misunderstanding? It seems to me that Ralphs amps were not at fault and Raul witnessed something that appeared like it was. I imagine they both now understand what happened.
Yes, Mab33 and Carlbecker, I think you guys have summed it up nicely. Never in my wildest dreams did I expect a used pair of well-cared for amps, carefully packed, sold to me w/extra driver tubes, etc. would come to me loaded with the wrong valued fuses. Docsavage, I think you are being a bit harsh on Raul, as he drew a reasonable conclusion from what he witnessed. If Ralph hadn't later mentioned to me the idea of confirming fuse value, I might not have caught it for a while. I apologize to the original poster for contributing to driving this thread further off track! Cheers, Spencer
Raul is as honest as a person can get. This doesn't necessarily mean that he always speaks using rosy words. He just described what he saw from his own perspective, as we have witnessed blown tubes in the middle of a presentation more than once. As Sbank said, one can't draw conclusions about a component's reliability if the design is not in its original form (fuses in this case).
While it isn't clear as to whether or not Raul knew or was made aware that the Atma gear was pre-owned, calling the attempted listening session an "audition" certainly was a bit inaccurate. When I think of an audition, listening to a dealer's properly setup/functioning equipment comes to mind.
It sounds like having Ralph go through those "repaired" and/or altered amps would be a good idea as well!
I enjoyed the tube/ss debate being conducted by manufacturers I admire. However, I disdained the reliability attack hurled at a specific product. It was a cheap shot, in what was formerly a lively debate.
As a consumer, I find it unreasonable and irresponsible to air a products malfunction publicly; unless of course, all private efforts with the producer have failed to resolve the issue. I would have assumed that a neophyte manufacture trying to peddle his wares would be even more reticent to launch a reliability salvo at another manufactures product.
Im sure none of the product purveyors in this thread intend to market anything but robust designs, and if the inevitable problem arises, they will stand behind their products and step up and resolve the issue.
Using a specific product malfunction as an argument against the technologies being discussed was inappropriate, made exponentially worse, when the reason for the failure was revealed.
Judging a specific products inherent design qualities by using a one-off occurrence of dubious derivation was unwarranted and unworthy of the tone of the discussion up to that point!
Was the veracity of one party less than the others? At the time not really! But honesty and accuracy are two different sides of the same coin.
The point remains that the coin should have never been thrown! Sure, one could argue that the coin was thrown to defend a design philosophy and was done in the heat of the moment etc. However, those are excuses for poor taste and for a quick finger on the submit button; both of which are antonymic to the thoughtfulness and the logic I would assume to exist in a designer and manufacturer of the product levels being discussed.
I think its good to talk about equipment success or failure. I think a manufacturer should not release fault prone equipment, I have seen some. I don't like the idea of keeping secrets of issues and I believe ss vs. tube reliability are fair game as well as low level detail or linear response. Its all part of the process of making the decision on which path to take. I prefer tubes so that I may dabble with them. I enjoy the sound of the equipment I have made. I think there is some great SS equipment on the market. I am sure there is shoddy SS and tube equipment out there also. I have also heard only good comments about the manufacturers partaking in this discussion. I would like to listen to all there equipment. IMHO to be accurate is to be honest. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Very good thread. You talk about the technical issue and market. But one thing is missing, that is the belief. If some one think SS amplifier is superior, you can not convince them through technology discuss,or market analysis.
Do not need to change their mind, go to the music and enjoy the music. Time will tell.
I’ve just started writing a book about Docsavage — an homage to a great hero of mine. It has been so interesting/beautiful/emotional to read all his old posts on here. Re: Raul, it sort of (sorry) made me laugh because Doc wasn’t like that. He was a very brilliant, kind, and forgiving man. It’s surprising he would say that on the internet. He was a great teacher though. He once advised me to read the book The Four Agreements. That book changed my life. As he led my horse to water (he might muse), Doc said: “Don’t take anything personally and never make assumptions (pass judgment) because you can’t know the road another has walked.” I think that fits well here, no matter the timing.
And Thom, this might be better suited for a direct message, but I heard a few years ago (2020) you liked some of the same music. In response to ‘Is marketing mad?’, may i suggest some songs/records?
Ben Howard, ‘Small Things’ (I Forget Where We Were)
Maggie Rogers, ‘Overnight’ (Heard It in a Past Life) Esp for Raul ;)
Marc Cohn, ‘Ghost Train’ (Marc Cohn)
Ondara, ‘Lebanon’ (Tales of America)
Van Morrison, ‘Rough God Goes Riding’ (The Healing Game - Doc’s favorite Van record)
Van Morrison, ‘Into the Mystic’ (Moondance)
O.A.R., ‘The Architect’ (The Rockville LP)
City and Colour, ‘Meant to Be’ (The Love Still Held Me Near) — a perfect song on a great record.
Diane Birch, ‘Forgiveness’ + ‘Ariel’ + ‘Rewind’ (Bible Belt — another Doc favorite)
Trevor Hall, ‘Forgive’ (Kala)
Bon Iver, ‘Wash.’ (Bon Iver)
Bears Den, ‘Agape’ + ‘Elysium’ (Islands)
Van Morrison, ‘So Quiet In Here’ (Enlightenment)
Aimee Mann, ‘Lost In Space’ (Lost In Space) - his ultimate.
…in his memory…
Thank you for everything, Thom.
I plan on buying my own Gavia II after I graduate and save up my own money. It’s my main mid-life goal. Truly a special turntable. That system was like a sibling to me. I’ve been on here trying to figure out the amps he had (not the tubes) as I only referred to them as “R2 and D2”.
Mab33, based upon a view of your system you appear to be one of his customers. You have a fiduciary interest in the product so your remarks are tainted.
Can you say "shill" with me?
If this were a correct attitude, the last people to be able to comment on an item would be those who own and know it. I would think them the best able to talk about it, allowing for any dissonance reduction they have to perform to cope with the fact they threw money at it. All the same, shall we listen to the opinions of those who don't own it, or those that do? Seems the latter camp might know best.
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