I just "upgraded" from a Mac SS integrated to a Prima luna dialogue 2 tube amp. The reason that I changed amps was that i assumed that the tube amp would be a better match for my Zu Druid speakers. The amp change was a big improvment for listening through my CDP....but not so when listening to my Rega P9. I had to switch to my spare SS phono stage (Graham slee) to get it to sound right. I was using a tube phono (AES) with my Mac. In Short, my tube amp with SS phono stage is not really an upgrade from my Mac with Tube phono stage. My question is.....should i consider a further upgrade to a better tube phono pre or is it simply that a change from SS to Tube amp is more "pronounced" in digital playback?
Mab33, based upon a view of your system you appear to be one of his customers. You have a fiduciary interest in the product so your remarks are tainted.
Can you say "shill" with me?
If this were a correct attitude, the last people to be able to comment on an item would be those who own and know it. I would think them the best able to talk about it, allowing for any dissonance reduction they have to perform to cope with the fact they threw money at it. All the same, shall we listen to the opinions of those who don't own it, or those that do? Seems the latter camp might know best.
I’ve just started writing a book about Docsavage — an homage to a great hero of mine. It has been so interesting/beautiful/emotional to read all his old posts on here. Re: Raul, it sort of (sorry) made me laugh because Doc wasn’t like that. He was a very brilliant, kind, and forgiving man. It’s surprising he would say that on the internet. He was a great teacher though. He once advised me to read the book The Four Agreements. That book changed my life. As he led my horse to water (he might muse), Doc said: “Don’t take anything personally and never make assumptions (pass judgment) because you can’t know the road another has walked.” I think that fits well here, no matter the timing.
And Thom, this might be better suited for a direct message, but I heard a few years ago (2020) you liked some of the same music. In response to ‘Is marketing mad?’, may i suggest some songs/records?
Ben Howard, ‘Small Things’ (I Forget Where We Were)
Maggie Rogers, ‘Overnight’ (Heard It in a Past Life) Esp for Raul ;)
Marc Cohn, ‘Ghost Train’ (Marc Cohn)
Ondara, ‘Lebanon’ (Tales of America)
Van Morrison, ‘Rough God Goes Riding’ (The Healing Game - Doc’s favorite Van record)
Van Morrison, ‘Into the Mystic’ (Moondance)
O.A.R., ‘The Architect’ (The Rockville LP)
City and Colour, ‘Meant to Be’ (The Love Still Held Me Near) — a perfect song on a great record.
Diane Birch, ‘Forgiveness’ + ‘Ariel’ + ‘Rewind’ (Bible Belt — another Doc favorite)
Trevor Hall, ‘Forgive’ (Kala)
Bon Iver, ‘Wash.’ (Bon Iver)
Bears Den, ‘Agape’ + ‘Elysium’ (Islands)
Van Morrison, ‘So Quiet In Here’ (Enlightenment)
Aimee Mann, ‘Lost In Space’ (Lost In Space) - his ultimate.
…in his memory…
Thank you for everything, Thom.
I plan on buying my own Gavia II after I graduate and save up my own money. It’s my main mid-life goal. Truly a special turntable. That system was like a sibling to me. I’ve been on here trying to figure out the amps he had (not the tubes) as I only referred to them as “R2 and D2”.
Very good thread. You talk about the technical issue and market. But one thing is missing, that is the belief. If some one think SS amplifier is superior, you can not convince them through technology discuss,or market analysis.
Do not need to change their mind, go to the music and enjoy the music. Time will tell.
I think its good to talk about equipment success or failure. I think a manufacturer should not release fault prone equipment, I have seen some. I don't like the idea of keeping secrets of issues and I believe ss vs. tube reliability are fair game as well as low level detail or linear response. Its all part of the process of making the decision on which path to take. I prefer tubes so that I may dabble with them. I enjoy the sound of the equipment I have made. I think there is some great SS equipment on the market. I am sure there is shoddy SS and tube equipment out there also. I have also heard only good comments about the manufacturers partaking in this discussion. I would like to listen to all there equipment. IMHO to be accurate is to be honest. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I enjoyed the tube/ss debate being conducted by manufacturers I admire. However, I disdained the reliability attack hurled at a specific product. It was a cheap shot, in what was formerly a lively debate.
As a consumer, I find it unreasonable and irresponsible to air a products malfunction publicly; unless of course, all private efforts with the producer have failed to resolve the issue. I would have assumed that a neophyte manufacture trying to peddle his wares would be even more reticent to launch a reliability salvo at another manufactures product.
Im sure none of the product purveyors in this thread intend to market anything but robust designs, and if the inevitable problem arises, they will stand behind their products and step up and resolve the issue.
Using a specific product malfunction as an argument against the technologies being discussed was inappropriate, made exponentially worse, when the reason for the failure was revealed.
Judging a specific products inherent design qualities by using a one-off occurrence of dubious derivation was unwarranted and unworthy of the tone of the discussion up to that point!
Was the veracity of one party less than the others? At the time not really! But honesty and accuracy are two different sides of the same coin.
The point remains that the coin should have never been thrown! Sure, one could argue that the coin was thrown to defend a design philosophy and was done in the heat of the moment etc. However, those are excuses for poor taste and for a quick finger on the submit button; both of which are antonymic to the thoughtfulness and the logic I would assume to exist in a designer and manufacturer of the product levels being discussed.
While it isn't clear as to whether or not Raul knew or was made aware that the Atma gear was pre-owned, calling the attempted listening session an "audition" certainly was a bit inaccurate. When I think of an audition, listening to a dealer's properly setup/functioning equipment comes to mind.
It sounds like having Ralph go through those "repaired" and/or altered amps would be a good idea as well!
Raul is as honest as a person can get. This doesn't necessarily mean that he always speaks using rosy words. He just described what he saw from his own perspective, as we have witnessed blown tubes in the middle of a presentation more than once. As Sbank said, one can't draw conclusions about a component's reliability if the design is not in its original form (fuses in this case).
Yes, Mab33 and Carlbecker, I think you guys have summed it up nicely. Never in my wildest dreams did I expect a used pair of well-cared for amps, carefully packed, sold to me w/extra driver tubes, etc. would come to me loaded with the wrong valued fuses. Docsavage, I think you are being a bit harsh on Raul, as he drew a reasonable conclusion from what he witnessed. If Ralph hadn't later mentioned to me the idea of confirming fuse value, I might not have caught it for a while. I apologize to the original poster for contributing to driving this thread further off track! Cheers, Spencer
Well, the amp didn't exactly "blow up", but because of the wrong fuses it did take out a speaker(woofer) and I doubt Spencer wanted to continue using it until he tracked down the problem. I thought Spencer's explanation revealed clearly why Raul thought what he did and is understandable. The good thing is that this is not representative of Atma's - because someone had installed the wrong fuses - and explains why Ralph and others didn't believe it. I'm assuming nobody except Spencer knew the real story and from all outward appearances it looked like the Atma's had done something terribly wrong. Thankfully, a properly fused Atma should never exhibit this behavior and I think any rational person would admit that installing the wrong fuses in an amp is likely going to lead to problems that are not inherent to the design and could lead one to think there is something wrong with the amp. So shouldn't this be chalked up as a misunderstanding? It seems to me that Ralphs amps were not at fault and Raul witnessed something that appeared like it was. I imagine they both now understand what happened.
One of the biggest fears a manufacturer has is that of a used piece of their gear appearing on the market after having been improperly modded.
I've become quite friendly with Mike Sanders of Quicksilver Audio.
Mike is one of the quintissential examples of bullet-proof designs in terms of stability and reliability.
Some of the Quickies he sees returned to him for "minor repair" are not to be believed.
He finds so much unauthorized work having been done on his gear to "improve" it, that the poor unsuspecting purchaser is faced with seeing more work being required to rip out the guts and start from scratch than what would be involved in starting from a bare chassis.
The Atma did blow up the woofer. Problem is/was the Atma was not to spec. as per factory. One needs to make sure about used equipment if one wants to keep the surprise's count down. Even then there can be a surprise waiting. Put yourself in the others shoes. "smoke comes out of a device and then the second device poofs...must be the first device causing the problem." And in this case its reported as what happen by both parties. Its not even an assumption, just an underlying problem. We all need to be careful. Not defending anyone, just an observation. Peace
So basically Raul misrepresented the entire episode or at the very least posted sketchy info that he had not verified. This seems to be a pattern. How can we possibly take Raul's comments as true in any of his posts? Claiming an Atma blew up and damaged a speaker when it did not is unforgivable IMHO.
Seems like this thread really got off track. I hope the original poster got something out of it. I have but not from the original question. Its been fun.
Here is the post that some of you have been waiting for... Raul did indeed audition Atma-Sphere gear at my home during his latest "American Tour", discussed elsewhere.
Raul did witness a tube failure in one of my MA1 amps; two tubes went down. Unfortunately for me, the amps were purchased second-hand and came with improper 6 1/4amp fuses instead of the recommended 5amp fuses. Additionally, a few of the tubes in the amp were old Ebay-purchased RCAs vs. the recommended Russian 6AS7s. The bad fuses allowed a DC surge to take down a woofer.
I've since replaced the woofer, the fuses, and the two bad tubes. In the interim, one other output tube failed(remember that this is a Mark 2.II amp a number of years old). The proper fuses worked correctly, and no speaker or amp damage occurred. Therefore, the comment, "The amp blew up", or "the amp damaged the speaker" is a distortion of the true cause. Given that Raul left town before I discovered the wrong fuses were in the amps, it's hard to blame him for concluding what he did, however I felt it necessary to clarify in Atma-Sphere's defense. As I type, I'm happily listening to Rob Wasserman's blistering bass work through my happy Atma-Sphere amps. Perhaps we can all get back to the music now...Cheers, Spencer
Rauliruegas, you can do better than that! First though you are going to have to figure out what the behavior of our amps actually is during a tube failure. So you have some homework to do. Then maybe you'll be able to create a more convincing story.
OK maybe Atma's comments come off a bit strong, but I recently put into service an older pair of Atma-sphere MA-1's I had stopped using when I lost of bunch of output tubes. I had gone over to an excellent sounding SS modified integrated, that honestly was the most revealing, fully fleshed out and non SS sounding amp I have ever heard (Ps Audio GCC series amp with full ICE Underwood Mod- their excellence is backed up by 10audio's review.)
I retubed the MA1's thinking I should listen to them on my new speakers just for kicks, then sell them. Even though they are older models - several cuircut enhancements behind current refinements, the amps sounded so much better and had more detail than the SS. It was like going from viewing excelllent hi-res 2D image on the SS to a viewing a 3D holograph with the Atma's. A very simple instrument - a kazoo on LP played by Sonny Boy Williamson, clued me into what was happening.
On the SS the instrument was plain to hear in all it's glory, but with the Atma's there was suddenly a man playing an instrument, the skin of the kazoo resonating as a seperate event from the body sound. There were more dimensions to hear, more facets, and being such a simple instrument I believe made it easier to hear and remember the sound, as opposed to a more complex instrument, like a violin. It was quite telling.
And the speaker's impedance isn't even ideal for an OTL's range, being 4 ohms.
I don't know if all tube products possess this level of quality, but I certainly can say that Atma-sphere's do.
The marketplace is speaking. Is the marketplace mad?
Like I said, I am not against tubes but am against using them to mask system anomalies. I think a large portion of tube equipment sales are due to this unfortunate latter use. My system is 100% solid state/monoblock based and my main amps have the 'to die for' midrange and holographic presentation of tubes along with the beef and sonic neutrality of solid state. The subwoofer amps deliver globs of highly controlled current at a very high speed.
At any rate, digital is making great strides and Dan Wright replaced his Atma Sphere amps for Channel Islands digital monoblocks. Hey, it's the 21st century!
My apologies for leaving out some crucial details in my earlier posts. I jumped onto this thread in defense of tubes, but was speaking from a device standpoint. That is, I was not arguing which type of amplifier was best, tube or transistor, but rather from a device standpoint. And with that in mind, my very offensive "blanket statement" that triodes are inherently more linear than transistors as devices still rings true. I'm sorry if that bothers anyone, but it's a matter of physics. And I can't change that. Neither can you.
Now which sounds better? Well, that's up to the listener. Each device and topology has advantages and disadvantages. We just do our best in each design given these certain limitations. In that respect, I can speak with a smidgen of authority as I have designed phonostages with triodes, opamps, and JFETs, in both balanced and single-ended configurations.
Having said that, the inherent linearity advantage of triodes merely allows a higher potential for sonics in an amplifier. Basically, they have a head start.
>>Tube problems my dear Raul are a consequence of bad design<<
I have to agree with both of you here. However, from a device and physics viewpoint, Raul stands on higher ground. Solid state electronics do indeed have a potential* reliability advantage.
(*This does not apply to missile defense radars or radio station transmitters).
Kudos to Dr. Geddes but he has apparently rediscovered what has been the accepted wisdom in audio for probably more than 20 years. The only way to account for the fact that many folks prefer tube preamps and amplifiers despite the fact that they typically have higher measured distortion than SS devises is to posit Dr. Geddes conclusions, and many others have studied this phenomenon and no doubt also presented findings to the AES and like groups. IMO, one of the reasons why SET amplifiers have such a devoted following is that these devices tend to have a very low distortion at low power levels which increases pretty linearly with increasing power demands. PP amps, on the other hand, tend to have higher distortion at the lowest power levels, near the cross-over point, than they do further up the scale.
As far as Atma-sphere amplifiers damaging a speaker, I think it's highly unlikely to occur even if every single output tube were to go sour simultaneously. What is being said, Raul, is that the amp won't damage a speaker, not merely that it will not damage itself. I have a pair of Atmas with an aging output tube set. Consequently, once in a while one of the fuses on the output tubes will blow due to the tube arcing over (each tube is separately fused). This results in a barely perceptible decrease in power and decrease in the wonderfulness of the sound, but not even a hint of anything that could possibly damage a speaker, i.e., no pops, bleeps, ticks, screeches, etc. Nada. So, while I don't mean to infer that you, Raul, are being untruthful, I do think that whatever happened during that listening session to damage the speaker did not occur directly as a result of the amplifier malfunctioning. Something else was going on.
and I'm talking of those tube problems only because Mr. Atmasphere " thinks " that he lives in an " island " where only exist TUBES and where the other technologies are not " up to the task ".
Tube problems my dear Raul are a consequence of bad design and not the nature of tubes.
As far as reliability is concerned, apart from a certain manufacturer in Ralph's home state (hint: it's not Atmasphere, but does begin with the letter "A"), all of my tube gear has been more reliable than my s-s gear.
You may argue about sonics, but tubes have it all over s-s in terms of simplicity, reliability, field serviceability, and immunity from voltage spikes.
As you know all too well, we are all in this business because we love it. Ralph, Jim, you and I don't make design decisions based on the prompting of our corporate accountants, but rather our chosen path is fueled by our passions.
You endorse your design because you love it - as do Ralph, Jim, and I.
Now, I won't deny that some behavior becomes pathological over time, but I contend that we'd be nuts to be in this business if we didn't love it. There are easier ways to pay the mortgage.
We have all in our own way landed on our own island paradise, and I consider it disingenuous of you to single Ralph (Atmasphere) out in this discussion.
As has been pointed out on more than one occasion, the number of companies manufacturing tube gear is growing and not shrinking. This is quite amazing when you take into consideration the marketing blitz from the large corporations.
The marketplace is speaking. Is the marketplace mad?
THD is a meaningless number. The ear is remarkably sensitive to odd-order harmonics - responding rather pleasantly to even harmonics - especially 2nd order.
Keep in mind that 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc. show up as very low numbers, but too much of these small numbers will chase you out of the room.
Some of these odd-order 'nasties' in minute proportions can be perceived as 'sparkle' or low-level detail - much like the trap people fall into when they mistakenly interpret speakers with elevated upper midrange / low-treble as having detail and pace.
This recognition of 'sparkle' and 'resolution' usually comes a few months before you find their latest prized piece of gear for sale on Audiogon.
Dear Audiokinesis: The problem was " more " than a simple single tube: first one tube, few minutes latter a second one and finally damage the speaker.
Atmasphere is right the amp don't suffer a serious damage, but I'm talking of a whole sale tube technology problems when used on audio:
+++++ " You certainly know every single tube technology limitations: very high output impedance, tubes are a noisy device " per nature ", tubes designs have higher distortions level than SS or hybrids one, tubes have heavy problems to reproduce accurately both frequency extremes specially the low bass where ( beteen other things ) does not have control over the woofers like the SS topology, tubes are untrusty: time to time ( very short time ) blow-up, tubes are not performance consistent: almost every single day sound different ( many people don't take in count because every day are in touch with their systems ). Jh you know that we can go on speaking about but this is not the subject: you and me know that there is nothing perfect in tubes or SS electronics.
Jh, the subject is that the " very old myths " about SS designs, fortunately, dissapear. Today we have very good SS designs as we can find good tube designs. The best of all is that today the customers have several choices that in the past don't. " +++++
and I'm talking of those tube problems only because Mr. Atmasphere " thinks " that he lives in an " island " where only exist TUBES and where the other technologies are not " up to the task ".
This is totally untrue there are hybrid and SS designs ( tube designs too ) that not only are very good designs but that outperforms the Atmasphere gear.
I'm friends with a physicist named Earl Geddes who specializes in acoustics and psychoacoustics, has authored books and holds patents in the field, and who not long ago presented several papers to the Audio Engineering Society on the subject of distortion perception. Earl is NOT a tube-o-phile.
Earl's research confirmed that the ear is very sensitive to low levels of high order harmonic distortion (I don't recall whether he singled out odd-order distortion or not), but very tolerant of high levels of second harmonic distortion. He also found that the ear is very sensitive to a rise in distortion at very very low power levels.
After he had completed the study, Earl made this remark to me (as close as I can remember): "Duke, now I see why you and your friends like tubes so much". He also told me that his study indicates a negative correlation between THD and listener preference - in other words, listeners were more likely to prefer the device with the higher total harmonic distortion measurement! The reason is, the THD measurement does not correlate well at all with distortion perception. THE INDUSTRY IS MEASURING THE WRONG THINGS.
Earl Geddes and Lydia Lee have proposed a new distortion metric that correlates very well with subjective listening tests, but it has not been embraced by the industry.
Anyway, my point is that in general solid state devices have lower measured distortion, but the distortion characteristic of tube devices is more in harmony with the way our ears work.
Finally, as an Atma-Sphere dealer, I have never had a customer's Atma-Sphere amp or preamp "blow up". Tube failure is not an amp blowing up, and Ralph's amps are designed so that tube failure does not damage the amp at all. In several thousand hours of listening, I have had one case of output tube failure and one case of input tube failure in an Atma-Sphere amp, both of which were easily remedied by replacing the tubes with no damage to anything. Ralph has never had a case of a customer's amp "blowing up", so I think Raul overstated his experience a bit.
Raulinruegas, I'm not insulting you, but your description of our product just happened to be something that has not been documented in nearly thirty years of business. I had to call you on it plain and simple.
Like anyone else in the business, sure we've had failures. But not 'blowing up' on account of a tube failure! which is the context of your statement. As an OTL manufacturer, we had to face the prior legacy of Futterman et.al. who had convinced the world at that time that OTLs were unreliable. We had created a way to make them pretty well bulletproof, so that a tube failure, speaker short, open input or total overload could not damage the amp.
I'm well-known for doing stunts with the amps at shows- pulling power tubes while the amps are playing, shorting out the output while the volume control is turned up to the limit and other things- things you would expect to damage an amp if you did them.
One time I had a tube arc when I had the speaker terminals shorted during just such a demonstration. No big deal- the amp was playing as if nothing happened when I removed the quarters I was using to short out the speaker terminals.
So you chose to describe the the one thing our amps *don't* do. So of course I had to call you on the carpet. In order for these forums to work you have to stick avoiding misleading comments.
Some Herbie's Audio Labs tube dampers would be a great tweak to try...they will help with your "muddy" bass, as well as "clean up" the sound a bit allowing the low level detail to come through.
Excellent suggestion, and a very quick and easy way to determine if overly microphonic tubes are to blame for the muddy bass.
Reading this thread over the past several days has been entertaining, to say the least. I've learned a few things from all of the technical discussion...mostly that I know very little.
Like a previous poster stated, I'd look to the tubes in the AES unit first. Some tube rolling/upgrading/replacing might be a less expensive way to attack the issue. Some Herbie's Audio Labs tube dampers would be a great tweak to try...they will help with your "muddy" bass, as well as "clean up" the sound a bit allowing the low level detail to come through.
Maybe, as some have stated, the AES and the PrimaLuna will never play nice together.
I found myself reacting much as the first poster when I read this thread,in that cartridge change or upgrade might be your preferred path.With a Planar 9 it's well known that the Rega Exact cart rather than the Elys is the best match.Rega also have a new MC cart in their line called the Apheta now.I have always found it edifying to switch between cartridges and note how my system handled each one differently.Less expensive than switching between gear anyway.
Pualy...thosearenotmywords...I'mnotthatsmart. Just let this guy play audiohile. He's doing good and has $$$. Dealers will love him. It's when people like him hear a system like mine when they have a bad reality check.
I always look good, most always am right yet not always in control. I did figure out big spender's audio problem--unlike the *professionals*...
Mab33's discovery re: the Prima Luna's input sensitivity mirrors what I found (but didn't post, since I wanted someone else to verify it - thanks, Mab33!). There's a case to be made that it's so low that many phono preamps will overdrive it. This can lead to all sorts of audio nasties, and their character will undoubtedly depend on the source doing the overdriving. How to tell? If the sound is especially distorted or unpleasing on dynamic peaks or strong, sustained vocals, your Prima Luna's input sensitivity is probably overloaded.
On "punchy" vs. "muddy" bass...
Have you tried different tubes in the AES? You've got a 12au7 regulating the power supply (I think) and 6SJ7's as signal tubes. Rolling different tubes into either of these locations will provide substantially different sounds. "Muddy" bass is characteristic of some tubes more than others. I don't have any specific recommendations for the tube types your AES uses, but as a rough guideline, look for tubes whose internal structures appear especially robust and "stable", in an architectural sort of way. Tubes built like this tend to have tighter bass than tubes with less solid internal structures.
The Graham slee unit had much more detail across the board...mostly in the lower end. Basically the Graham slee gave me "punchy" base where as the AES tube unit was very "muddy" in comparison. Further, the Graham slee SS unit did not sound dry or lean in any way.
Audiofeil - a "shill" eh? Come on, gimme a break. Who has something to sell here and works in the industry, not me. Perhaps you should look up the definition before you use words you don't understand.
I think Doug's post above may be leading us in the right direction to explain the original posters questions. I looked up the specs on the Primaluna and found that it's input impedance is 100K Ohms which seems unlikely to be the issue, but it's input sensitivity is 270mV. Couldn't find any specs on the AES unit, but wouldn't the Primaluna be easily overdriven with a .27V input sens.?
1. The AES's output impedance might be a mismatch for the Prima Luna.
2. The AES's output level might be too high for the Prima Luna, causing overload distortion.
Either of these is a more likely answer to your question than tubes vs. solid state.
Can you describe, in audiophile terms, HOW the Graham Slee sounds better than the AES? That might help those interested in offering helpful diagnoses or suggestions.
03-25-07: Psychicanimal +++ The three manifestations of the ego are as follows:
1) I'm right. (cause I say so) 2) I'm in control (and don't want to be controlled) 3)I'm looking good (saving face) +++
Psychic, I am not going to say I am not guilty of the above, but having read one or two of your post you really need to heed your own words. Besides, many on this threads raise some very cogent opinions. Something rarely found in yours.
Dear Atmasphere: +++++ " The fact is you did not audition our gear. " +++++
This is totally untrue. Everyone that know me knows that I never ever affirm something that is untrue.
If the owner of that Atmasphere ( preamp and amp ) audio devices give me its Ok ( better yet, if he want too that he post about )I will give you all the info about. I hope he agree because now my word is in " doubt "??????
Now you are insulting me, something that I never believe/wait/spect from you.
Glad to see some people standing up to what are gross misleading anti-SS amp blanket statements. I am ashamed to think that some readers (with less scientific backgrounds perusing audiogon) might take some of these blanket statements at face value and go away and sell a perfectly adequate SS amp and buy a very expensive tube amp and some very expensive interconnects and speaker cables (ending up with 20K of gear & cables) to connect to their $2 K speakers with $50 mass produced drivers (all the while they might be better served by room acoustic treatment, the addition of a sub or upgrading the speakers). The hyperbole of some statements make it seem that SS amps will all sound absolutely terrible by their very nature - I strongly disagree with this belief. (BTW - I agree that tube amps, correctly implemented in a synergistic system, can sound absolutely fantastic....but this does not mean that every SS amp designs is bad - there is good SS sound too)
IMHO, blanket statements and hyperbole is what detracts somewhat from other useful and instructive discussions on these forums. I know everyone is probably guilty of these statements from time to time (including myself) but some persist in pressing their philosophies more than others....
should i consider a further upgrade to a better tube phono pre or is it simply that a change from SS to Tube amp is more "pronounced" in digital playback?
I strongly suggest to get/build a proper rack and address power filtration in its entirety. Me don't trust PS Audio...me trust Sean & Deano. Search the Jedi archives, young Padwan.
Vibrations will transform into digital jitter. This could be a major cause of digital listening fatigue. Although I'm not against tubes I am against using them to mask system anomalies. Poor room acoustics will exacerbate the jitter issue, especially around 3-4 KHz. It will sound very fatiguing. The rear wall desperately needs treatment and so the first reflection points. Bet you don't have slap echo treatments either.
Last but not least: get the sub out of the equation while you fix this. You might find out it's not necessary at all.
Look Mom, what Ralph Atma, Hagtech, Audiofeil & Raoul didn't come up with!
Mab33, based upon a view of your system you appear to be one of his customers. You have a fiduciary interest in the product so your remarks are tainted.
Dear Atmasphere: A well SS design has lower distortion that a well tube design.
In my last trips to USA in three different audio systems: three tube audio devices blow up, one of them was Atmasphere.
Ralph this is not a tournament, you and me like every single music lover are looking for the same: the best quality sound reproduction, you choose to do it through tubes and that's fine other people like me choose doing through SS technology. Ralph, I'm not against the tube technology: the subject is that till today the SS technology help me in a best way to achieve my music sound priorities, if in the future I find that the tubes ( I owned for many years tube electronics ) could help me you can be sure that I will use it, but today they can't in any way. Btw, by design we dissapear those odd harmonics.
Fortunately for all of us the tube and SS designs are " suffering " improvements over " past " designs and that fact has to be a motive of great enthusiasm for all the audio community.
Instead that we use our time speaking about the advantages/disadvantages of either technology IMHO we could use that time trying to improve our designs or better yet try to work " together " for a better future on the quality music sound reproduction.
tubes are a noisy device " per nature ", tubes designs have higher distortions level than SS or hybrids one, tubes have heavy problems to reproduce accurately both frequency extremes specially the low bass where ( beteen other things ) does not have control over the woofers like the SS topology, tubes are untrusty: time to time ( very short time ) blow-up, tubes are not performance consistent: almost every single day sound different ( many people don't take in count because every day are in touch with their systems )
Rauliruegas, I gotta call you on this one. *None* of the above is true. Tubes are *lower* distortion than transistors, noise is a red herring (either are noisy *or* quiet- you know that), the 'woofer control' comment is right out (mythological) and frankly, dealing with the reliability of transistors in the studio the last few days: give me tubes- at least they can be serviced! If a transistor bites you you're down for the count. And finally your comment about tubes being inconsistent is just wrong. I've had the same tubes in my Neumann U67s for the last 20 years and the mics get a lot of use, often on for days at a time. In the same 20 years the transistors in my Mellotron are toast.
OTOH I find that power tubes have variation- but not day to day. Triodes will have very consistent operation right up the end of their service life, which is often 10,000 hours. Pentodes are more variable, but even they will not be different from one day to the next!
I understand that you may think that you are the exception to all this. That's great! Now put yourself on the other side of that *same* coin and realize that there are the same exceptions in the tube world.
Hmmm, Audiofeil, why don't you ask him to explain it rather than using words like crap, BS, ridiculous, etc. You're posts have been nothing but antagonistic for so long it has become tiresome.
You keep attacking Raul like he's trying to sell his preamp, but I don't see you attacking Ralph when he speaks of the virtues of his products. Is this because you sell Atma's??? Why the hypocrisy???
I love it when manufacturers like Ralph and JCarr and Raul/Jose and Hagerman discuss their designs and thoughts here. There is valuable info to be gained from all of them and I hope they all continue to post so that we can benefit from what they have to say.
Unfortunately, Audiofeil, just like Raul has probably turned off many people with his posts, you have made it clear to at least me, that even in your native language you have a lot to learn about earning the respect of others.
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