Tube amps under $7500

@hickamore estimated 1:106 as per spec in its prior and upgraded form following your math ratio approach. While I'm not near the gear or have a means to measure anything, its a guess at best. 

Maybe I should restate this. Whatever is in play for six months (like it is now), is my primary system, LOL.  However, when push comes to shove and I begin parting with my two systems for room and system changes, it's going to be really tough to let go of either of the two sets of amplifiers. Maybe both of them are primary whenever they are in play. :)  Each offers its own enjoyment in different ways.  

@decooney As should be obvious, your secondary system would be my primary. Just one question: what is the O/I impedance ratio of your 6SN7 tube preamp to Pass Forté (as upgraded)? Depending on preamp, with amp change I would be moving from 1:110 down to 1:16 or 1:25.

@hickamore fwiw thought I’d mention that I’m doing what @paulcreed recommended. Currently running a different brand 6SN7 tube preamplifier with a full Class-A 50w Pass Forte’ 3/1A (upgraded) solid state amplifier as my secondary system. Speakers are 92.5db efficiency. Funny thing is I’ve kept this tube pre and ss amp combo in place past six months giving my tube amps a long rest. Or, that’s my excuse, and yet I’ve enjoyed listening to it for while now. Offers a nice hybrid sound and while biased in full Class-A, it manages to hold my attention better than expected. These very long rotations truly allow me to appreciate differences.

@paulcreed You are right in my wheelhouse. Appreciate the reassurance.

Maybe consider a 6sn7 preamp and 250 watt amp that doubles in power. With $7500 you could find a Don Sachs, Supratec type preamp and an older Pass Labs, CJ or others. I tried BAT, ARC, Rogue they were nice but felt they were more in solid state territory, in case that’s what you are trying to avoid. Just make sure impedance matches.

i had a Don Sachs pre and amp very natural with a great layered sound stage, the preamp matched with solid state very well. 

@decooney Much appreciate your thorough review of the entire course of discussion. I will try to clarify my position on each issue.

1) Why focus solely on the amp? Because mine is beyond its ten-year warranty period, long out of production, and frankly losing its grip on challenging material. So, what better time to reconsider tubes before committing to a costly new decade-long companion? Especially considering I changed speakers during that period.

2) Why ignore preamps? Because in my experience, it's the preamp that establishes the sonic signature, but you can't work on that until your output chain (amps/speakers) has become a constant in the equation. A prerequisite, if you will. I am ALWAYS looking at preamps and need no help on that question. Being stable at that position in the lineup at present, I must focus first on the amp, then the DAC, before playing with preamps, which for me is where the fun lies.

3) Why the balanced specification? Because this helps to limit an otherwise boundless field of choice. (Same with my requisite of silver, or at least non-black, finish). In my setup, balanced operation helped with impedance matching, gain, and long-ish cable runs. Not to mention manufacturer recommendations. So I became a "balanced guy," and if that seems arbitrary in one sense, it is surely not irrational in any sense.

4) Why the default position of tube pre + SS amp? Because I can't live without a tube pre (though I also have a fully balanced SS on hand), while my Legacy speakers quite likely can't live with a tube amp, as I have just learned.* Frankly, I am also lazy. Even if the tube amp is self-biasing, amps sit down in a dark corner of a dark room near the floor. Some use three different tube types, requiring matching spares of each on hand. I'm just not the born gearhead obsessive that so many in here are. (No knock on them -- I learn a great deal from the experts, the wizards, just reading their hugely informative posts in here).  

Hope this clarifies where I am coming from. 
*From two different Legacy dealers, one in LA and another in Minneapolis, both of whom also sell plenty of tube gear. ("High current, and running deep in Class A to emulate tube sound").

re: "For pairing experimentally with various tube and SS preamps."

Some members may be running right past this requirement in your original post.

If I were in your shoes [IF  this is truly a requirement] I’d probably be looking at manufactures also offering a nice matching (primary) preamplifier that you’ll enjoy along with your selected amplifier(s). Matching up the right preamp matters too, many will chime in here or just look at old threads on this topic.  Next is your balanced connection requirement, which limits the field as others have already stated. With your stated $7500 budget limit set for the amp(s), does this change overall spend equation some if the budget for the [balanced] preamplifier is also brought into discussion now too?

Mixing and Matching:

Like others here, I too pair up my SS and tube preamps with SS and tube amps. Even with good-full Class A 50w SS, in the end solid state sounds like solid state, and tube sounds like tube. Sure, mixing types of each produces a nice hybrid sound. @hickamore gotta ask, can you see yourself also drilling in a little more on your choice of preamplifiers now too?

While looking at amplifiers, maybe take some time and focus to look at good preamplifiers, before selecting your primary tube amplifier. In my systems, the preamplifier choice has a notable impact on the result and enjoyment. One thing is for sure in my system, when I connect my best tube preamplifier into the mix, something really nice occurs about the sound. Matching with the amp matters. My .02 cents fwiw.

Ask:

Do you also have a sense as to what manufacturer’s PREAMPLIFER and model you might choose as your primary preamp for your system?

So many more fine tube amps out there than I ever dreamed existed. But in order to get their benefit, I would need to change speakers and add subwoofers (which don't augment, but actually constrain, the performance of Legacys in any configuration possible for my space). These are -6dB at 22Hz. Many superb speakers hit -6dB at 30Hz or above. It took the contributions on this thread to make me recall why I had gone with Legacys in the first place. Fully enclosed, can be placed near front wall. High frequency hearing loss and compensatory bias toward low bass articulation. It's a long list.

My personal favorite is Sophia Electric...a number of excellent sounding amplifiers and what you hope for when you go to tube amplification.....

I would stay away from 75 watt tube amp then. I’m using a Reference 3a reflector and Joseph Audio Pulsar. The 3a’s play just fine, sometimes I would like a little more power with the JA. Both are very enjoyable with 50 watts. If you need power and current and want tubes may want a preamp and mono blocks. Tubes can get expensive and heat in summer months can be an issue. Needing big tube power makes it tricky.

@paulcreed the Audio Hungary does sound fascinating, but what speakers are you using with it? Mine need big wattage, big amperage, and only sound good at >80dB.

I have a room with separate and a simple room that I have tried some integrated amps. Right now I prefer the simple room.
 

I stumbled on the Audio Hungary a50i and really love this amp and see no need to move on. It plays any type of music I throw at it. Can’t say that for the Conrad Johnson cav 45s2 even though that is a wonderful amp for certain types of music. I tried the ARC and BAT and others but just wasn’t for me.
 

There is a 75 watt Audio Hungary balanced a75i on US Audiomart for $3800 retail $9000. There is something very special about class A with tubes. 

Balanced is not differentially balanced. I am pretty certain that BAT is differentially balanced and I am not sure about ARC. My guess is not. Only makes a difference if your preamp is differentially balanced. True you can beat some speakers into submission with higher power, but you will not be getting the most from these tubes amps. It is not just impedance but also swings.  

@chenry Unfortunately, this unit is an integrated whose preamp section is not versatile enough for my needs. Also, its tubes won't deliver the current needed to handle the low impedances thrown up by my Legacy speakers. Seems the only tube amps likely to do this are the big ARC separates and the BATs with their monster output tubes. So I will be looking for a deal on one of those while pondering whether to just cave and go SS after all. Some are reputed to sound rather tube-y, or at least will operate in Class A to 40-50W.

Audio Research i/50 meets your requirement for tube with balanced inputs and at the price point you mention.

Points well made and I'm not familiar with Legacy speakers.  However,  I pair a VSi75 with my Dynaudio Heritage Specials and it seems to drive them just fine.  And when playing vinyl have a Ref2 SE phono pre use a LOMC Lyra Delos and again seems to sound fine.  Of course I have a smaller room and moderate volume levels.

@hotei  Integrateds have not ben on my radar, partly because failure on one end renders the other useless until repairs are made. But I must say, ARC for both pre and power at a reasonable price is a serious temptation. But then I wonder whether anyone would seriously recommend this unit with Legacys? 

I'm going to put in a vote for the VSi75 by ARC.  One can probably find it used for under your budget.

@yoder New one to me, like so many tube amps here. Thanks. I am indeed also considering Coda and will check out this one as well before pulling the trigger.

@hickamore Other than silver color, Circle Labs M200 could tick all the boxes if you are considering high current SS route.  It is a great looking amp though.  I believe at the price of the one currently available used, it would be difficult to beat.  This hybrid amp has tube warmth and very good SS bass paired together seamlessly.   I have the integrated version .  Very special amp.  Good tube warmth,  but still accurate and fast.  Coda may also be a good fit for you, but for me this is the only SS ( hybrid) I have heard that hasn't left me wanting for my tube amp.  Review is worth a read.  

I would consider the Coincident 300B Power amplifier monos...single ended for efficient speakers, but with plenty of bass foundation, liquid mids and extended, soft highs.  Israel is a good guy that has been in audio for decades!  P

@mdalton 

Something tells me that's not your first time putting that formula into play. No matter, I couldn't agree more. While price (and resale price) is a consideration, it's a rather distant cousin to the priority of value. At least for me. I'm often surprised by how often people fail to make the distinction.

it’s very much like a net present value calculation of an investment that yields income.  the npv = discounted cash flows + resale value.  so for a piece of gear, the “cash flows” are the annual benefits of enjoying the gear.  so, one piece of gear could have higher annual cash flows (greater enjoyment), but lower resale.  because of those cash flows, it may actually be a much better investment.  In other words, resale value tends to be overrated.  As as with any investment,  it often depends on what discount rate you assume, lol!

@mclinnguy 

RE: McIntosh Resale Value

Like anything, certain models hold more value than others. Rolex is a strong analog for McIntosh in that regard. Undoubtedly which models and how much those models retain in value is impacted by the size and quality of the market in which they are marketed and sold. I just sold an MC302 in less than a week for close to what I bought it for new six years ago. But I'm in the US not Canada.

I certainly agree, however, that McIntosh resale value is often touted as some kind of golden absolute with no wrong choices, when it is anything but.

@audition__audio OTL amps are out of the question for my speakers. I’m sure that with some, OTL amplification would be perfect.

@mdalton @larryi @darkblacksmoke Your insights come as a reminder that I am working with humble $10k speakers plus a modest amp upgrade budget. Need to forget bi-amping, leave my subs offline, choose the best one-chassis solution (more to this decision than pure SQ) and think more about what to do when my DAC dies.

I wished I would had listened years ago when someone suggested to me MCintosh ,ARC or CJ as a preamp. I kiss a lot of frogs on my journey.Listen to the words of wisdom @ghdprentice ​​​​​​he is like the good cool uncle at the bbq .One of my biggest regrets is buying gear thinking that is just as good as what I really wanted . It's a reason why McIntosh,ARC and Cj gear is over 10 years old still demanding a decent price . 

Recently someone was crying about how hard it was to sell a Roque pre amp. Prima luma you see them for sale almost new all the time 

This sounds like a nice testimonial, if it were true. I will just pick on Mcintosh. 

Fact is right now on Canuck Audio Mart there are 27 listings for Mcintosh Pre-amps- just 2 examples for newer preamps:

• 53 day old listing for a C2700: $12000 retail asking $6900
• 153 day old C49 with DAC $9000 retail asking $5500. 

So yes, you are going to get as soaked selling a used Mcintosh pre as much as anything else, maybe more. 

At time of writing there are zero Primaluna Pre amp listings on Canuck Audiomart. 

(Yes, of course Mcintosh have been producing them for many more years and have sold a disproportionate amount compared to Primaluna- just providing a contrary viewpoint in favour of Primaluna)

@hickamore 

one more thought:  in the manual for your speakers, there’s actually a pretty lengthy discussion of biamping, and combining tubes with SS.  In that context it references something called an “amp balancer” available from your Legacy dealer.  I couldn’t find anything else on the www about it, but you might want to reach out to your dealer.  

OP, early in this thread, @bluethinker recommended the Audio Hungary P200.  I’ve heard very good things about this company.  Am not sure their stuff tilts warm, but wanted to make sure it got your attention.  Build quality is superb; friend of mine is a dealer and loves their stuff.  And it meets all of your other criteria - price, balanced out, silver, 100w….

With the correct speaker nothing beats an OTL. I own Atma-sphere MA-1s. The M-60s are also very good at a lower price with less power.

@larryi 

That kind of bass isn't a priority for me either. That said, I have full-range speakers that go down to 17hz so I don't really even need a subwoofer, though I do have some, they just aren't turned on most of the time.

I also don't mess with active crossovers, I let the speakers sort that out for themselves. While I use the low and high pass filters on my MEN2200, my primary goal was simply to take some of the load off of my tube amps by not feeding them any more signal than they needed. So I set the low/high pass filters respectively one octave above and one octave below the speakers existing cross over points. I haven't really touched it/fiddled with it too much since setting it up because it consistently sounds great, at least to my ears.

For me, it is not just that extremely deep and impactful bass is a low priority, I don't like the results I often hear with attempts to achieve such bass.  Often the bottom end sounds "dry" and toneless when that kind of bass is achieved.  I think it is quite hard to do proper active crossovers and bi-amplification and even adding subwoofers properly is tricky.  The bass quality of your speaker system is mostly a property of the speaker, not the amplification.  While it is possible to get some improvement by proper choice of amplifier, and perhaps by expert bi-amplification, I think it would be hard to avoid compromises in other aspects of performance or ease of use of the system.  I know people who constantly fiddle with subwoofer settings, bi-amplification level setting, etc., and that sort of attention to the system is not for me.  Some people enjoy that kind of tweaking, so it is a personal choice.

"Sounds optimal, but how do you manage level matching, etc.?"

@hickamore 

If you're referring to gain matching different amps in a bi-amped setup, I do it with my McIntosh MEN2200 Room Correction System vis a vis its low/high pass filters/outputs as it allows me to adjust output gain between them. 

I'm sure there are all sorts of opinions on the right or wrong way to do this, but thus far it has worked quite well for me.

@larryi I'm told that many tube users are switching to Coda SS amps. Extended bottom end is a necessity for me.
@mdalton Sounds optimal, but how do you manage level matching, etc.?

@mdalton 

Bi-Amping is the way, at least for me.

I have two mono-blocked MC275s (running GEC A2900s and KR Audio KT88s or GEC KT88s depending on any  given day) up top and a pair of Pass Labs xa160.8 mono-blocks down under. I love how they sound together.

Speakers are BW 802D4s.

The MC275 is a great amp once you throw away the junk OEM tubes. Which should he done with immediacy IMHO.

+1 @larryi 

My listening values are pretty much the same.  I have no experience of Legacy speakers but I take the OP at his word that they are non-negotiable.  That’s why I suggested the possibility of bi-amping, as one approach to solving these simultaneous equations.  But for me, with my listening values, if I wanted to experience the magic of tubes, I’d think about easier-to-drive speakers.  Having said that, the OP is taking a nicely deliberate approach and might just be able to get it all with the Legacies and the right tube amp.  And I’m enjoying trying to help. 

@mdalton Ah. That explains everything.  You have scored some truly classy gear at good value. I  admire, but can't emulate. The stoic good humor alone would make all worth reading. See below. 

@larryi Just so. In a perfect world, I would bi-amp with Aric or such on top and Coda or such on the bottom. But I am old, not to mention tech-lazy, and times are chaotic, and 90% of my listening is casual, which leaves me in the usual compromise state, albeit vastly better informed owing to the wealth of information shared here. Thanks to all.  

If bass response, and specifically how the amp handles low impedance (i.e., damping factor) is a high priority, then solid state is the way to go.  Some powerful tube amps with many pairs of output tubes may also have respectable damping factors, but to me, most such amps sound hard and edgy (I prefer solid state to many high powered tube amps).  It comes down to priorities and picking your own set of compromises; nothing is perfect.  My own priorities do place deep, tight bass way down the list.  Getting a rich, saturated sound with good midrange and lively sound at lower volume levels are high on my list which is why I like low to medium powered tube amps.  I sacrifice extreme volume capability, and deep tight bass.

@hickamore 

yeah, vu is not really a distributor, though he’s listed as such by Synthesis.  He’s a dealer - from whom I bought my amp.  One of the reasons Synthesis has been way below the radar screen in the U.S. is that they’ve never had an actual U.S. dealer.  No presence at audio shows, no Stereophile reviews, etc.  The upside is you don’t pay a premium for the brand.

@mdalton Right, I was looking at Deja Vu. Really know nothing about the brand. Maybe @audiotroy will weigh in.

@larryi Whether integrated or separate, my question remains how it handles low impedance at low frequencies.;

@jtcf What speakers are you using with the Transcend?

Late to the party..... but here's another recommendation for the Aric Audio Transcend. I've owned mine for a little over six years now with nary a problem. The bass is excellent,which is really important to me with the types of music I love. It actually can be used without a preamp if one wanted to (gain control). I don't because I like being able to adjust the balance via the pre's remote.If Aric ever decided to close up shop any place that services guitar amps could take care of any repairs easily. The way it's laid out internally is neat and accessible. My two cents:-)

With a lot of tube gear, the difference between an integrated amp and a power amp is surprisingly minimal--if you take the power amp and add input jacks, a source selector and a volume pot, you have an integrated amp.(you probably don't need additional gain of a preamp or the buffering of the preamp).  One is often better off going with a manufacturer's integrated model because it is cheaper, will sound at least as good and will not require a pair of interconnects.

by distributor, if you mean deja vu, pretty sure their website is not up to date.  my understanding is that the Prime series - which includes the Ovation and my Ensemble integrated - has been discontinued.  But @audiotroy will know better of course.  in the meantime, i’d recommend you look at the synthesis site (synthesis.co.it).

Yes, I would certainly like to hear the Synthesis. If it resembles Cary, then I would probably like it. Same, I expect, with Aric. Only question is whether a tube amp (other than Stone Fortress ARC, VAC, etc.) can handle the low frequency impedance dips in my Legacy speakers. 
As for integrated amps -- should I find myself reluctantly abroad and in more constrained living circumstances (per @mdalton) -- then integrated would certainly be the way to go.  

As I stated above, I am suggesting that you hear these amps even though they don't match your criteria and tell us if that is the kind of sound you are after.  If you think they are too warm, for example, you might be a candidate for the Audio Research amps being suggested above.

Also, if you do find it to be as good as I think it is, you might change your plans.  It is an integrated amp, with a first rate DAC that might prompt someone to drop a whole lot of other gear in favor of this amp.  I know of a buyer trading in a Jadis amp, Jadis linestage and a DAC (don't recall what DAC) for the A100 model that costs a small fraction of the gear being traded in.  I had to agree that the A100 sounded better than the Jadis, and Jadis is really nice sounding gear (also spectacularly well built).

@mdalton @larryi @audiotroy I viewed the Synthesis lineup on the distributor's website. Very cool-looking gear but most of these are integrated amps. Ovation is the amp that would interest me. However, Audio Intellect site is not displaying searchable products. At least not to me, at this time.

@audiotroy 

You carry both Synthesis and Legacy, right?  Any experience with the Roma 98dc?

@hickamore 

btw, the Roma line has wood faceplate, but a silver-ish finish is available.  And Synthesis does a beautiful job on their wood finishes.  See picture of my Synthesis integrated under my Big Rig pictures on my systems page.

@larryi 

The Air Tight stuff is so beautiful, and so expensive….I love Synthesis, but I think you already noted that they are almost exclusively integrated amps.  For Synthesis, the only possibility given OP budget might be the Roma 98dc mono amps, which also have balanced xlr input.  Those would be very cool, and they’re not huge.