Tube amps under $7500

@bdp24 Very interesting. A product that came out during my years away from hi-fi. Seems to check all the boxes and I see a MkII on Shark for $3250. Sounds almost too good. Will inquire further and thanks for the tip.

@decooney Much appreciate your thorough review of the entire course of discussion. I will try to clarify my position on each issue.

1) Why focus solely on the amp? Because mine is beyond its ten-year warranty period, long out of production, and frankly losing its grip on challenging material. So, what better time to reconsider tubes before committing to a costly new decade-long companion? Especially considering I changed speakers during that period.

2) Why ignore preamps? Because in my experience, it's the preamp that establishes the sonic signature, but you can't work on that until your output chain (amps/speakers) has become a constant in the equation. A prerequisite, if you will. I am ALWAYS looking at preamps and need no help on that question. Being stable at that position in the lineup at present, I must focus first on the amp, then the DAC, before playing with preamps, which for me is where the fun lies.

3) Why the balanced specification? Because this helps to limit an otherwise boundless field of choice. (Same with my requisite of silver, or at least non-black, finish). In my setup, balanced operation helped with impedance matching, gain, and long-ish cable runs. Not to mention manufacturer recommendations. So I became a "balanced guy," and if that seems arbitrary in one sense, it is surely not irrational in any sense.

4) Why the default position of tube pre + SS amp? Because I can't live without a tube pre (though I also have a fully balanced SS on hand), while my Legacy speakers quite likely can't live with a tube amp, as I have just learned.* Frankly, I am also lazy. Even if the tube amp is self-biasing, amps sit down in a dark corner of a dark room near the floor. Some use three different tube types, requiring matching spares of each on hand. I'm just not the born gearhead obsessive that so many in here are. (No knock on them -- I learn a great deal from the experts, the wizards, just reading their hugely informative posts in here).  

Hope this clarifies where I am coming from. 
*From two different Legacy dealers, one in LA and another in Minneapolis, both of whom also sell plenty of tube gear. ("High current, and running deep in Class A to emulate tube sound").

@decooney As should be obvious, your secondary system would be my primary. Just one question: what is the O/I impedance ratio of your 6SN7 tube preamp to Pass Forté (as upgraded)? Depending on preamp, with amp change I would be moving from 1:110 down to 1:16 or 1:25.

@audphile1 Just learned that user must re-bias ST-100 tubes every 4 months. Hmmm, yeah -- one of several reasons I have avoided tube amps. Current Prima Luna 400 has autobiasing. Not sure how well it works, but if it does .  .  .

@soix, I love the romantic, tube-y sound, with realistic deep bass. Always relied on preamps with class A-A/B amps before, but that could be just habit or bias or maybe I forgot why. Legacies are Signature SE, best bass presentation anywhere near the price; would consider upgrade to Focus if justified; can go no higher given my room constraints.
@ ditusa I found Rogue tube preamps (5 & 7; heard same about 9) rather sterile, so never explored the amps and forgot they were out there. Have you heard Prima Luna also?  

@audphile1  Rogue now definitely on the list. Had forgotten about them but I do know a dealer pretty well.
@biglou13 , If this means I am wasting my time shopping under $15k, well, so much for the experiment. You did notice I am talking amps, not preamps?
@hilde45  Know nothing about Quicksilver; will research & explore before making any decision.

@curtisvill I am not thinking integrateds at this point as I like the flexibility of separates. Maybe when I enter downsizing mode in a few years.

Biasing: thing is, power amps are huge and heavy and live in a dark spot down by the floor where I would need to crawl like a reptile with a flashlight more often than I find comfortable for normal maintenance jobs.

All:  definitely aware of ARC, CJ, BAT, and would not need to ask about those as it is a given they are top-end. Many others mentioned that I don't know much about and will check out. Could be I will end up where I started, which is "if you don't have the time, the money, the obsession, and the right listening space, forget about the true high end and settle back into your comfortable mid-fi-plus zone."

Thanks all for suggesting products I never knew were out there. Will definitely do some homework and see where the needle stops. I enjoy experimenting but perhaps my "end game" system is something just not quite so lofty.

@ghdprentice & others A lightly-used VT80SE on Agon for only $3660. Seller unloading because it won't drive new speakers. Don't know what speakers -- something like Spendor? But supposedly 75 watts can drive Legacies with no trouble; what do you think?

@jetter I thought so too. "What's the catch?" Will explore further when home from travels.
 

@jetter 
"According to hifishark the seller has the amp up for sale on A’gon, USAudiomart and Reverb." 
Plenty exposure, "mint condition," tubes lightly used, wonder why it has not sold in 19 days.

@glennewdick Just saw a near-new MC275 for sale in silver. Never before saw a silver Mac component in 40 years. So that would be a candidate at $5250.

@hilde45 Checked out the Quicksilver and it seems quite the value with legions of enthusiastic fans. I trust their judgment but unfortunately it does not come in silver, has no balanced input, and requires frequent re-biasing. Given those limitations, I have narrowed the search to about three serious contenders and am seeking the best deal within my price range. With different upstream components, different cosmetic requirements, and more enthusiasm for tweaking, it might be another story. Ultimate question to be answered is whether or not I find a tube amp essential for my main system.

@larryi I realize true balanced, end-to-end, is a tough ticket. But I believe DAC & pre both fully satisfy. Phono stage does not, but vinyl use is down to "on request only" at this point. This forum very quickly talked me out of Prima Luna, and I was already inclining against Mac for other reasons. Top choice at the moment is ARC VT80SE but seller may be getting cold feet on that one.

@mdalton Agreed, Suara would be a super-cool piece to look at and play with. Just  not sure it's the prudent one for me.

@ditusa Atma-Sphere definitely in contention. All now comes down to where I find the best deal on a piece that checks the boxes. Appreciate all the thoughtful advice from a forum of experienced contributors.

@bimmerlover LOL, Prima Luna was my OP question and NO ONE before now has even remotely endorsed it. 

@mike4597 Equivalent bass response has been my primary concern with the low-mid-level tube amps I am exploring. The behemoth tube monoblocks can definitely go low with realism, but I will never be in the market for those.

@ditusa +1 Also, mfr of my SS amp recommends balanced, so those are the cables I have and there are enough tube amps in that category that check my boxes.

@akgwhiz Power amp, not integrated; 70+WPC; silver preferred although wood will do. Down to a short list now thanks to many helpful advisors.

@bdp24 Appreciate the warning. At this stage I should focus on amps with dedicated 4 ohm tap.

@passthedutchie Like you I would naturally incline to KT150s and wonder why the unit costs $400 less with these vs. stock EL34. 

@passthedutchie Thanks for correction. I was comparing the $5,715 "sale price" at Upscale against what is apparently their "regular" price of $6,178 with KT150s. You are correct that the price with EL34s is $4,995. And of course I agree that if one is going to buy PL, one should do it at Upscale.

@porchlight1 @yoder  Thanks to this thread I am now an uncommonly well-informed tube amp shopper. Much appreciated.

@mdalton Interesting thought that had never occurred to me. I suppose it is a given that no tube amp in my price range can match its SS equivalent on bass? And if bi-amping with one SS device and another very different tube kit, wouldn't I then get into level controls and active crossovers? Remember, I am a lazy listener, not a gadget enthusiast.

"You can go down a rabbit hole just in what is the best class D amp or if/ when is it better than A or A/B as far as what's best just for SS bass."
@yoder  Wish I knew the trick for highlighting text copied and pasted . . . anyone?)

I was one of those who suckered on Bob Carver's intro product as his own company: a megawatt Bang For Buck Class D stereo amp, perfect for quick money exploiting the hormonal market of the time. Thought this would power the Maggies I was using back then. Um, no. So much for Class D. Sure, it's better 40 years later, but I'm A-A/B all the way now when it comes to SS power.
As for sonic preference in bass presentation: realism is essential, but so is amplitude, and that sense of dynamic headroom still thrills me. Guess you could call me a bassoholic -- my ancient ears gravitate to the bottom frequencies because they're the only ones I can still hear in a "critical listening" way. That's why Legacy, and you're right, that's why SS for the bass, providing it's 5-10 watts of Class A with A/B beyond. 
Given that I'm never spending $30k+ for a Fortress tube amp, we're down to feasible bi-amping. At least I still hear well enough above 400 Hz that the tube glow might be magical and worth implementing if not too fussy.
 

@aricaudio Appreciate the information. You have caught my interest. Two questions:
1) I love 6SN7s as preamp tubes but have never seen them in a power amp before. Can you explain why in a way that a non-engineer can understand?
2) Did not see rated 4-ohm WPC on website. How would bass response compare to Parasound JC5 SS amp? I am not hoping to enter the Bi-Amp Derby.

@laaudionut Really admire the Aric gear but it is not feasible in my installation.

@yoder No trouble copying and pasting text, but it does not appear highlighted when pasted, and the " key seems to have no effect. Hmm. Maybe my browser, maybe my incompetence. Meanwhile,

"What is not feasible about Aric gear?"
Two-chassis, single end input only. 
Equally important, what is your take on Aric bass presentation relative to A-A/B SS gear? 

@aricaudio Everything I wanted to know and more, thanks!

Now I need to ask about price with fully balanced mod. Perhaps beyond my means at present. Choice of finishes? Tubes included or BYO? Are those Tung-Sols in the photo?

@yoder  aric did respond directly and I am now conversing re the Transcend.

Appreciate your report on amps. Sorry I missed your earlier question. Reference(s) are Parasound Halo A21+ and JC5 to which I plan to upgrade if I don't go tube instead. Very pleased with its iron-grip control and musicality on the lowest frequencies. 

@aricaudio Thanks, got it! Will conduct future conversation via website messaging.

@laaudionut Appreciate the encouragement. If Aric is a one-man shop, I hope he is substantially younger than I am. Will inquire about a listening visit before buying as I can get to the Springfield MA area rather easily.

@larryi @vthokie83 Appreciate the reassurance. I am "on the case," as they say.

@mdalton Ah. That explains everything.  You have scored some truly classy gear at good value. I  admire, but can't emulate. The stoic good humor alone would make all worth reading. See below. 

@larryi Just so. In a perfect world, I would bi-amp with Aric or such on top and Coda or such on the bottom. But I am old, not to mention tech-lazy, and times are chaotic, and 90% of my listening is casual, which leaves me in the usual compromise state, albeit vastly better informed owing to the wealth of information shared here. Thanks to all.  

@mikhailark Valid concerns that I have thought about. These would worry me more if I were younger, however. Next amp I buy for keeps will certainly be "end game." Despite occasional enthusiasms, I won't be pulling the trigger before January 20, 2025. One might be best advised to defer purchases of costly, esoteric electronic gear before assuring oneself that the near future will not include a national descent into anarchy. Hobbying is the first casualty of existential crisis.

@mikhailark The only BAT amp in my price range (recently discontinued and now discounted) is unavailable in silver. Anyhow, I have already gravitated to the custom single-chassis Aric which can be fully balanced. Its allegedly "tubier" sound and customer service has made it my tube amp choice. Only question is whether it can deliver enough current for my speakers, which are notorious for huge impedance drops in the low frequency range.

@mikhailark Not the only country that has electricity, but if you are able to buy a house abroad, pay for transport of your many expensive components, and set them up an ocean away, then yours is a more portable lifestyle than mine. Maybe you already have dual citizenship and a second residence abroad. Lucky you. Some of us are a bit short on safety valves.

@mikhailark In truth my own immobility lies in a1.5-acre live-in, finest-and-rarest arboretum created over 40 years. Then there is the 2k-bottle fine and rare wine collection, assembled over the same time, demanding impeccable storage and transit conditions. Unlike amplifiers, trees and wines are living things. I could subsist on everyday wines, but losing the garden would be curtains. So you're right: amplifiers are trifles in the greater scheme of things.
@invalid Indeed, a huge hybrid amp (a one-off T+A) has been recommended to me and there is no doubt it would handle the  bass dips. Still, now is not the time for "business as usual." As dozens of philosophers, from pre-Socratics to Stoics to Existentialists have counseled, prepare always for the worst. And so I do.

@jomonhifi If ARC Reference is where you START, where can you possibly END? One very notable and insightful contributor here has described his 40-year evolution through audiophilia which finally culminated with ARC Reference gear including DAC. Though I just noticed there is a REF 75SE listed on Agon at $5,650. 

@larryi Indeed I would like to see how much a tube amp enhances the warmth, bloom, decay of those same qualities present in preamps. By this I mean something more to the Cary side (if they still made amps) than the ARC side. ALTHOUGH, I have been advised that over time, the ARC presentation will convince just about any ears that they have landed in the right spot. Another bit of advice has been that with my particular speakers (4 ohm with impedance dips in the bass), a high-current SS amp with a tube-like presentation (Coda S5.5, for example) is likely the best match. Also Aric maintains that his push-pull amp can drive Legacys, and many say ARC will drive anything. Since I'm not pulling the trigger before feeling confident that anarchy is not our national future, I hope to audition all serious candidates & am willing to travel to do so. And I realize that sometimes our suspicions or expectations can be overturned by experience. So I will be keeping an open mind.

@mdalton @larryi @audiotroy I viewed the Synthesis lineup on the distributor's website. Very cool-looking gear but most of these are integrated amps. Ovation is the amp that would interest me. However, Audio Intellect site is not displaying searchable products. At least not to me, at this time.

Yes, I would certainly like to hear the Synthesis. If it resembles Cary, then I would probably like it. Same, I expect, with Aric. Only question is whether a tube amp (other than Stone Fortress ARC, VAC, etc.) can handle the low frequency impedance dips in my Legacy speakers. 
As for integrated amps -- should I find myself reluctantly abroad and in more constrained living circumstances (per @mdalton) -- then integrated would certainly be the way to go.  

@mdalton Right, I was looking at Deja Vu. Really know nothing about the brand. Maybe @audiotroy will weigh in.

@larryi Whether integrated or separate, my question remains how it handles low impedance at low frequencies.;

@jtcf What speakers are you using with the Transcend?

@larryi I'm told that many tube users are switching to Coda SS amps. Extended bottom end is a necessity for me.
@mdalton Sounds optimal, but how do you manage level matching, etc.?

@audition__audio OTL amps are out of the question for my speakers. I’m sure that with some, OTL amplification would be perfect.

@mdalton @larryi @darkblacksmoke Your insights come as a reminder that I am working with humble $10k speakers plus a modest amp upgrade budget. Need to forget bi-amping, leave my subs offline, choose the best one-chassis solution (more to this decision than pure SQ) and think more about what to do when my DAC dies.

@yoder New one to me, like so many tube amps here. Thanks. I am indeed also considering Coda and will check out this one as well before pulling the trigger.

@hotei  Integrateds have not ben on my radar, partly because failure on one end renders the other useless until repairs are made. But I must say, ARC for both pre and power at a reasonable price is a serious temptation. But then I wonder whether anyone would seriously recommend this unit with Legacys? 

@chenry Unfortunately, this unit is an integrated whose preamp section is not versatile enough for my needs. Also, its tubes won't deliver the current needed to handle the low impedances thrown up by my Legacy speakers. Seems the only tube amps likely to do this are the big ARC separates and the BATs with their monster output tubes. So I will be looking for a deal on one of those while pondering whether to just cave and go SS after all. Some are reputed to sound rather tube-y, or at least will operate in Class A to 40-50W.

@paulcreed the Audio Hungary does sound fascinating, but what speakers are you using with it? Mine need big wattage, big amperage, and only sound good at >80dB.

So many more fine tube amps out there than I ever dreamed existed. But in order to get their benefit, I would need to change speakers and add subwoofers (which don't augment, but actually constrain, the performance of Legacys in any configuration possible for my space). These are -6dB at 22Hz. Many superb speakers hit -6dB at 30Hz or above. It took the contributions on this thread to make me recall why I had gone with Legacys in the first place. Fully enclosed, can be placed near front wall. High frequency hearing loss and compensatory bias toward low bass articulation. It's a long list.

@paulcreed You are right in my wheelhouse. Appreciate the reassurance.