Yes I saw he has the atlas sl. I also have the atlas SL. I love it. It is my favorite cart of all times. I am hooked on low out put carts.
Tri-Planar Vll "SE Upgrade"
Contemplating sending my Tri-Planar Vll back to Tri Mai for his "SE Upgrade". Essentially, same carbon fiber wand and internal silver wire and leads used in his 12" U12 arm. Anybody done the dirty deed? If so, better, worse or pretty much the same.
I've only seen one post on the subject and that person seemed more than happy.
Thanks to anyone who responds with personal experience. No conjecture please.
I've only seen one post on the subject and that person seemed more than happy.
Thanks to anyone who responds with personal experience. No conjecture please.
107 responses Add your response
@whatthe : Yes the Simplicity: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/sl1200gae-new-tonearm/post?postid=1571957#1571957 R. |
Dear @whatthe : There are only those two kind of design tonearms and maybe a must to own both. I don't have that kind of money but....? ...? Yes, the Schroeder is not the best looking boy but the engeneering behind it is unique/advanced and at its today price and against other normal pivoted tonearms I can say the LT is a true bargain. " Looking forward to confirming the thoughts .." Maybe a dedicated thread about? R. |
I understand how the arms work and for the most part their different approaches to the same problem. I had been close to ordering the Schroeder LT. Just had difficulty getting past it’s appearance. Not that it is ugly. It just does not look like an arm that costs the amount it does. I ordered a Thales Statement 2 days ago. Your statement (no pun intended) made me feel very good about my purchase. I was just trying to understand how you came about your view. Thought maybe you may have had some direct experience with the Thales statement. Downunder seems to own the simplicity ii. Be very interested to here what he has to offer. I do obviously feel the same way you do. Looking forward to confirming the thoughts in a week or so. 🖖✌️ |
@whatthe : Both are pivoted and runs tangentially, so what can makes a differences? The different build materials used overall and excecution quality level of the designs. The only way to compare in between is to have both mounted in the same system with the same cartridges. Btw, it's LT not ST ( I think ? ? ? ). R. |
So you don't have to worry if you choose between Löfgren A or B or Stevenson for the cartridge/tonearm alignment. You don't have to worry about higher distortions at inner grooves. That " unexistent " tracking error means lower distortion levels and higher MUSIC information that means higher MUSIC enjoyment. Pivoted tonearms designs are well know for better bass range quality performance against the tangential tonearm designs and with the Thales you don't lost this important advantage. Yes, it's a true tonearm evolution. Has the best of both tonearm worlds ! ! R. |
Dear @whatthe : Well that's a pivot tonearm design that runs in true tangential way with all its advantages because the tracking error ialmost disappeared as the necessity of antiskating. @downunder that's an owner and a true audiophile can chime here about. Here you can read about: http://www.tonarm.ch/en/products/thales-statement R. |
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Dear @nkonor: """ You thought that I needed to rewire the tonearm with your recommended wire, that I needed to waste my money on multiple headshells. That I needed to do this and waste a lot of time critically listening to all these tweaks to gain the knowledge and only then could I be sure that a better tonearm would elevate the stock Technics to a new level. WRONG !! """ Rewire any stock tonearm as the Technics that was builded at a low price point always is a must to do it. My advise silver wire recomendation was only an alternative for do it that but certainly not the last " word ". A removable headshel tonearm design as the Technics gives to any one the opportunity to really match any single cartridge for its can shows at its best. Choosing different headshells with different build materials, different headshells weigth, different builded shape and even choosing different female cartridge pin connectors makes the difference always. A non removable headshell design can’t do the best for all cartridges and always will puts its " signature " that we can’t change and if some one is deep founded on the ideal resonance frequency it’s extremely more easy to achieve it through a removable headshell design because even that normally a fixed headshell designs comes with different counter weigths it can’t really change the inertia moment due that the counterweigth is so near the tonearm pivot and in a removable headshell design the weigth changes trhough different headshells can do it because are at the farest point to that tonearm pivot. Yes, I still think that you can’t be aware how good is the stock Technics tonearm because you did not give that tonearm to shows it at its best. You said a waste of time and money well I’m in total disagreement with you in this regards because that Technics tonearm is a very well designed and with very high quality excecution of that design at a low price market point. In tonearms like in any audio item always exist trade offs and the success in each one audio systems depends on which trade offs we choosed. I stay with a moded stock Technics for very good reasons against your Triplanar. Btw, I want to let and to be very clear: first I'm not against any person per sé. I'm against any dishonest person, against any person that lie on purpose, against any person that wants to take advantage on the low knowledge level of other persons, against any bia$ed opinion because his comercial bu$$ine$. I respect any single human been but those with that kind of " atributtes " . If you don't care about or are in favor of then is up to you. Btw, are you dishonest or a lier?: I don't think so. Please let me know when J.Carr , or other audio manufacturers that post through internet, posted something in favor his Lyra designs or speaks against the competitions or lied in any way. Well I can tell you that NEVER did it and never will. This is the kind of gentlemans I respect and that's why I respect you too. R. |
Raul, Each post is an opportunity to learn. I have followed your posts and have learned some useful info. I have also followed Ralphs' posts and he too shares a lot of useful info. IMHO; You need to Learn and Think on it. For two years, I thought and learned about the Technics SL1200G and other tonearms. I saved my nickels and finally decided to ask Ralph to mod the Technics with a Triplanar tonearm for me. I did not become aware that Ralph and Tri were friends until months went by and I kept wanting to send Ralph and Tri some money. That's when I learned that they shared the same business address. Both Ralph and Tri would not take any money until the TT / tonearm was ready. You are the one who is upset with Ralph. Myself and many others are thankful for Ralphs' contributions to this Forum. Your posts are also appreciated. Raul, You called me out on a thread and said #@%$ that I would never know how good the stock arm is. Wrong ! You thought that I needed to rewire the tonearm with your recommended wire, that I needed to waste my money on multiple headshells. That I needed to do this and waste a lot of time critically listening to all these tweaks to gain the knowledge and only then could I be sure that a better tonearm would elevate the stock Technics to a new level. WRONG !! I have now had my Technics / Triplanar rig for months and am sure that it was the right decision. Following your advice would have wasted a lot of time and money. Dear Raul, I do not see anyone joining you in calling out Ralph. Learn and Think on it already. Your advice is Not the last word on anything. Again, your thoughts and advice would have cost me time and money. So; Raul at this time I see you as a pompous a** whose ( knowledge ? ) would have cost me, Not benefited me. Dear Raul, Learn and Think on it. Maybe take a course in English and writing. Then and only then will you be able to clearly get your points across without appearing to be a snobbish pompous A**. |
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Dear @jtsnead : Each single post posted by any one ( including me. ) is an opportunity to learn and this learn means different things example: what not to do, what to do or just confirm what we know or maybe a new subject to think on it. Lies, several of them everywhere as this one in this thread: Dear @tri-planar: " and has the lowest friction bearings of any arm made .....""" I’, sorry to disturb you but today that the audio world eyes are in the Triplanar thread could you please share those Triplanar official measurements values of the tonearm vertical/horizontal bearing friction ( and maybe the measurement method/tools used for. ) because not only the Triplanar owners would like to know but many potential audiophiles/customers want it to know too. Information that can confirm what your friend said. """" that " lowest friction " statement is a lie: Triplanar owner just can’t confirm it even that I ask for it and till today not here but not even in the triplanar site exist information that confirm it. Was you not me whom posted that lie. R. |
I have the feeling that when raul is talking about 'lies' he is talking about me; just for the record nothing I've posted on this or other threads about tone arm or LP performance is untrue. Generally, if I don't know the answer I stay silent. If raul is not talking about me, then whoever he is talking about sounds like he's spot on. |
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Dear friends: Not only here but through other threads ( different or similar subjects. ) were exposed/spreaded/posted several lies that per sé is totally dishonest. Lies in favor of what? because here are facts that proved those lies and inexperiences as in other threads too. @tri-planar is not the guilty about but only a " victim ". In the site there is no spec for bering tonearm horizontal/vertical friction and its measurements about. Btw, the AT tonearms came from the 70's and HP started in the early 80's. Whom copy whom on that: " same plane " bearing/Lp surface ".? In reality that copy word exist only on those tonearms I mentioned were a true copies. R. |
Geoffrey Owen uses rubies as the bearings in his fabulous Helius Silver-Ruby Omega arm (the arm Tim de Paravicini recommends for use with his EAR Disc Master turntable), and silica nitride as a more shatter-resistant alternative. Extremely hard and smooth, sn is perfect for use in tonearms. Hard and smooth equals quiet. |
Dear @tri-planar: "
and has the lowest friction bearings of any arm made ....."""
I', sorry to disturb you but today that the audio world eyes are in the Triplanar thread could you please share those Triplanar official measurements values of the tonearm vertical/horizontal bearing friction ( and maybe the measurement method/tools used for. ) because not only the Triplanar owners would like to know but many potential audiophiles/customers want it to know too. Information that can confirm what your friend said. Thank's in advance and again sorry to disturb you but I think is a important Triplanar subject. R. |
Dear friends @tri-planar: Trying to promote everything where tmasphere has intere$t to makes mon$$y from we customers he posted here and elsewhere things that showed his non-expert opinions almost as the one coming from a rookie in these specific regards: Triplanar tonearm. Please read: """ The Reed looks nice but its unlikely to have bearings as hard as those in the Triplanar, ........................................................................ Softer bearings tend to blunt with use; this causes the arm to have a limited lifespan (mysteriously goes out of adjustment over time). """ Wow: I own and owned dozens of tonearms vintage and today ones and in no single one found out that " blunt " or that " limited lifespan " that in this regards all type of bearings has. That those Triplanar bearings " as hards " means almost nothing because that hardness in the bearings is only one part ( important one. ) in the overall builded tonearm. The sum of parts is the key as is the whole excecution quality of any design. Per sé that " hardness just does not make " the difference ". """ The VTA tower on the Reed appears to be a copy of that of the Triplanar, .......... """ a copy? this is an insult to Reed designer coming the post from an audio manufacturer. First than all Reed has at least four different tonearm models. Second the Triplanar is a copy too because is a pivot tonearm design and third a copy is what other very well regarded tonearm manufacturers did it with Highphonic and Audiocraft tonearms. and here discovering the " black thread " shiowing his inexperience about: """ But the thing that bothers me is the location of the bearings- they aren't in the plane of the LP surface, and while this makes the arm easier to build, it also means that tracking force will be lessened with bass notes and warp. """ Obviously that a true expert as @tri-planar designers know perfectly that " new discovery " and here is one of several examples with tonearms coming from the 70's, in this case/regards from Audio Technica: https://www.vinylengine.com/library/audio-technica/at-1100.shtml you only have to make click on " instruction manual " and you will read a complete explanation on that regards 40+ years ago. Here another: https://www.vinylengine.com/library/audio-technica/at-1010.shtml https://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_reviews.php?make=Audio+Technica&model=AT+1010 I owned the 1100 and still own the 1010 and this as the Technics EPA100MK2 and the GST-801 or the Max 282 outperforms in design and performance quality the very good Triplanar. All those vintage tonearms were and are " ligth years " a head its time. Just the best of the best including today top tonearms no matter what and I'm saying all those with first hand experiences and with all my respect to the Triplanar designer. In those named tonearms are at least 5 tonearm important characterisitcs that even today designers not even " dream " with. another untrue history/tale: "" It is the most adjustable arm in the world and has the lowest friction bearings of any arm made .....""" against which vintage or today tonearms? no where exist the bearing friction ( vertical/horizontal ) specs of the Triplanar. I really respect @tri-planar designer because he came here ( Agon. ) to help a customer with a problem with the Triplanar but he never posted his design is this or that or better than..., he is a HONEST manufacturer as is J.Carr Lyra designer that came here several times to help with any trouble in his cartridges but never to promote his Lyra great cartridge designs. Exactly as Triplanar designer: HONEST, They know very well which is their role in the whole audio industry and always trying to help and not looking for money $$$$$$$$$ My hat off for those HONEST audio manufacturers. Btw, as other well regarded today tonearms Triplanar has competition from everywhere coming from Schroeder, Origin Live, Rega, Kuzma, Reed, Thales, SAT, Telos one and many more and of course several vintage ones as the ones I mentioned that I owned or own and yes I have triplanar first hand experiences with. Every single day is a learning day for we audiophiles. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
@atmasphere the two discs you cut, are those available? IF I never hear the cannons again it will be toooooooooo soon....Some of the LPs we cut are on the Nero's Neptune label. The LP I use for reference was not mastered by us- that was done at the Mastering Lab by Mike Reese and Doug Sax. But I have the master tapes- I know what that LP is supposed to sound like. Its called Canto General; a friend of mine came across several sealed copies recently- PM me if interested. that’s untrue for say the least. Resonance frequency between cartridge y tonearm is like any other parameter: something to take in count but cartridge/arm combination out of 8hz-12hz or even 7hz normally has no problems of mistrcking and certainly with " moderate modulation " never happens.This statement is false. Its well known that the resonance target of 7-12Hz plays an enormous role in how well a cartridge will behave in an arm, especially if heavy modulation, warp or non-concentric grooves are involved. Further, the idea that the arm plays no role in the tracking abilities of the cartridge is ludicrous and is easy to demonstrate :) |
Re what Raul said about my experience mating an Acutex LPM320 with compliance = 42, per factory literature, with FR64S using Dynavector headshell which is a bit lighter than a stock FR headshell, it's fantastic, and I hear no bass rumble which you might expect with such a low resonant frequency based on the math. However, the system is on a poured concrete floor in my basement, and the turntable (TT101) is resting on a large slab of very dense styrofoam used for shipping heavy yet delicate objects. (Better than any "audiophile" shelf, IMO.) Plus the tonearm mount board is custom made from about 5 lbs of aluminum and heavily damped, plus the FR64S is sitting in a B60 base that also adds mass. Perhaps this is why I don't have an issue. Add to this the fact that the quoted compliance of 42 is probably referenced to 100Hz; so it would be much lower at 10Hz. And add to that the age of my NOS Acutex which may serve to lower compliance due to stiffening of the suspension. This combo is sounding right now to be very slightly superior to a brand new Audio Technica ART7, running next door on a highly tweaked Lenco with a Dynavector tonearm, into the same downstream system. I agree with Raul's point that the resonant frequency of the system might not be so important at frequencies well above resonance, which includes all of the music. Unless resonance is excited. |
Dear @tomic601 : I don't know what you men from your post. Things are simple: first I hve no theory at all but facts tht any one can attest as @lewm or tht Audio review and second LP grooves tracking belongs to the cartridge self abilities specs and not to the tonearm.. What' the big deal? which your reason to your post?. Sorry, I can't understand. R. |
Dear @tri-planar: """ Thank you Peter at PBN Audio for confirming our measurement. """ as I said that kind of mesurements belongs mainly to the cartridge tracking habilities. I’m not saying that tonearm is not important because it’s. Dear friends, sometimes exist a misunderstood with some audio subjects and especially in analog audio because sometimes in those audio subjects our knowledge level is lower than in others. We all have different ignorance levels in different audio subjects. As reviewers has its own ignorance levels manufacturers too as audio distributors and of course we audiophiles. No one knows all in audio. Some of us could think that a professional reviewer or an ausdio items manufacturer are " experts " in overall audio when it's not that way. Many of you audiophiles knows in some audio subjects more than reviewers, distributors or manufacturers. No one knows all of all. Here is an example that the tracking abilities belongs to the cartridge specs: https://www.ortofon.com/hifi/products/hifi-cartridges/mc-windfeld-ti/technical-data R. |
Dear @tzh21y @pbnaudio friends: """ if the mechanical resonance does not fall within the window of about 7-12Hz, the arm and cartridge combination will mistrack and you may experience breakup even with moderate modulation in the LP grooves. """ that’s untrue for say the least. Resonance frequency between cartridge y tonearm is like any other parameter: something to take in count but cartridge/arm combination out of 8hz-12hz or even 7hz normally has no problems of mistrcking and certainly with " moderate modulation " never happens. Tracking abilities depends more on the self cartridge abilities than the tonearm in which is mounted. @lewm can corroborates that easy because he runs his Acutex very high compliance cartridge mounted in a very high effective mass non-damped tonearm design ( vintage ) with out tracking problems. This combination makes that the resonance frequency stays at 4hz-5hz ! ! Using a Technics Epa 250 ( vintage ) tonearm the magazyne Audio reviewer made a full Ortofon MC-2000 LOMC cartridge that’s a high compliance cartridge. If I remember the compliance was over 30 cu and the resonance frequency between the cartridge/tonearm lower than 5hz ! ! and even that the cartridge plays in clean ways the full cannon shots of the Telarc 1812 and many other " torture " Lp recordings on everykind of kind of music. The reviewer tooks real time measurement through the different analizers and tools under his control. So information did not came from test records or the like but: live real time ! ! Btw, the cannon shots are very demanding but the Carrillon grooves too. It’s a great recording and is a digital recording made it in the years where almost no one understand very clear about digital and its meaning. Telarc is a recording lesson for every one, not only the 1812 but several other Telar recordings are just fasinating and a must to own. Obviously that as everything in analog the tonearm is important but in reality the main task regarding tracking belongs to the cartridge self tracking abilities. Btw, when any one of us read any tonearm specs saying: tonearm tracking: 80 or 90?, never in the other way many of us already read the tracking spec in cartridge specs. """ the Triplanar U12, latest model (1-2017). It tracks 100 u with no issues, """ well, a Rega tonearm or a Jelco one can do it too because that does not depends mainly on the tonearm but in the CARTRIDGE. In my own system and through my analog audio life I tested hundreds of cartridge/tonearm combinations ( with over 130+ cartridges and more than 30 different tonearms. ) and only one time one combination skip LP grooves. Mistraking can occur for different reasons: dirty stylus tip in the cartridge, unclean LP grooves, deffects in the LP pressings, a tonearm out of specs, a cartridge out of specs, to pronounced waves in the LP, a bad cartridge/tonearm set up, a new non broke-in cartridge where the cartridge suspension is not yet settle down, etc, etc. The cartridge is the king the tonearm only a " slave " of it, an important " slave ". Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
I have heard medium mass arms mistrack many records and then here the same records on a mission mechanic arm and they track perfectly.@tzh21y The issue here is something called 'effective mass' which is the combination of the mass of the arm and cartridge, and how that interacts with the mechanical resonance, which occurs when the effective mass interacts with the compliance of the cartridge. Regardless of the quality of the arm and cartridge, if the mechanical resonance does not fall within the window of about 7-12Hz, the arm and cartridge combination will mistrack and you may experience breakup even with moderate modulation in the LP grooves. IOW, 'medium mass arms' has nothing to do with it. What your post suggests is that the medium mass arms you heard were not set up properly. The Triplanar allows some adjustment of the effective mass, and so it can accommodate a fairly wide range of cartridge compliance. |
From my experiences, I would actually believe nandric's comments as many newer arms just do not seem to track as well as the higher mass arms for some reason. I have heard it myself. I have heard medium mass arms mistrack many records and then here the same records on a mission mechanic arm and they track perfectly. I have never heard a FR-64s but it is a high mass arm, just like the mission mechanic. |
Peter, That sounds like a good idea. Stability is always important. I noticed your Triplanar still has the damping trough. If you are not actually using the trough, you should try removing it from the arm. I did that a number of years ago and was surprised by the improvement in sound quality. It was too long ago for me to recall the specifics but it was an easily noticeable improvement. |
Have made a improvement to this otherwise excellent tonearm. I found the VTA/SRA adjustment "tower" did not hold the arm base firmly enough with its single knurled screw attachment especially if one is more than half way up on this adjustment. If your constantly fiddling with VTA/SRA its probably not a benefit, but I don't, so I designed a add on tri-point stabilizing ring for this, see virtual systems page for how it works. Last picture. This adds tremendous stability to the tonearms mounting rigidity. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6431 We can make more should anyone have an interest. Since it a specialized item and probably only to be made in a very small quantity it will not be inexpensive though. Good Listning, Peter |
Got the "Schalplatte2" and finally completed the Turntable for the Triplanar U12, latest model (1-2017). It tracks 100 u with no issues, plays tracks 5 and 6 on side B perfectly - so clearly the OP must have some setup issue with his TriPlanar or very unlikely its defective. The cartridge mounted on the Triplanar U12 is a Lyra Etna. Heres a picture of the turntable / arm used for this simple test. It is the last picture https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6431 Good Listening Peter |
