Love my TP VII UII. It tracks fine with each of my handful of carts: Kiseki Purpleheart, Koetsu Urushi Vermillion, Transfiguration Axia S, Charisma MC2. I do occasionally have a faint but audible hum issue, especially with the Kiseki mounted. It takes some fiddling with the leads and trying different grounding arrangements to minimize this but it never totally goes away. Has anyone dealt with this? I wonder if there is an upgrade that can solve it.
Tri-Planar Vll "SE Upgrade"
Contemplating sending my Tri-Planar Vll back to Tri Mai for his "SE Upgrade". Essentially, same carbon fiber wand and internal silver wire and leads used in his 12" U12 arm. Anybody done the dirty deed? If so, better, worse or pretty much the same.
I've only seen one post on the subject and that person seemed more than happy.
Thanks to anyone who responds with personal experience. No conjecture please.
I've only seen one post on the subject and that person seemed more than happy.
Thanks to anyone who responds with personal experience. No conjecture please.
107 responses Add your response
What is most likely it would appear from all that is written here is that the owner has either badly installed (aligned) tonearm or he has a defective tonearm but either way he can not tell the difference so everyone would agree I think that he needs the services of a qualified dealer in Music Reproduction Systems and should seek one out with particular experience with analogue/vinyl/turntable playback. Some individuals have trouble seeking help when they have a problem but there is no need to feel this way and it is not the owners fault that he is having bad performance even if it is a setup problem/error because that can be extremely difficult because of the tight tolerances required for proper vinyl playback in a Music Reproduction System. It would be best if he simply accepted this situation and then sought/obtained the help needed to resolve the issue and then he can move on to enjoy properly his Music Reproduction System which now is suffering because of this tonearm problem. |
Any arm can do 70 microns or even 80. Its no big deal and Triplanars can do it too no worries. I don't need a test LP; I can perform tests using my lathe. The technical story is easy to understand. I'm sure most that have read this far followed it with ease. The Triplanar is the most adjustable arm in the world. If a person can get it to track at 2 mils but not above that, something is wrong, but given that it can track at 2 mils, probably the setup and not the arm. |
Well I left this forum but I need to react to atmasphere acusation that I ''made up the (whole) story''. I can start with his conclusion(s) which assume some premise. But he traw three conclusions which are difficult to reconcile which each other as conjunctions. So either something is wrong with his premisse or with his logic. However let start with his premisses: ''Folks, just you know, 50 microns is about the same as 2mils... (which) is standard level '' etc,. But Nandric already stated that 50 microns are sufficient for ''normal records'' (aka ''standard level'') and also that his Triplanar can track 50 microns but skips out the groove by 60 microns. Nandric who has no idea how to adjust his Triplanar was somehow able to adjust his FR-64 (also his Reed 3P) such that he got even 80 microns from his Benz LPS. Nandric was surprised with this result and asked other members if their Triplanar's also can't track 60 microns. To his big surprise nobody answered this question because nobody either own's any test record or because they deed not care for such experimente or trial. Even our electonic genius atmasphere does not own any test records among his 4000 records. He was obviously also not able to lend one with tracking ability test from his friends and perform the same test which would take about 5 minutes time. Instead he produced an whole technical story which only few can understad. But this was my request. I stated nothing about other Triplanars so I don't understand what the fuss is about. Well if my Triplanar can track 20,30,40 and 50 microns why should my sample be defective? As I also mentioned I own some low complience carts which can't track more than 50 microns . In my former post I mentioned my Ikeda 9 as example. But I also mentioned my LPS and Windfeld which can track even more than my ''magical 70 micron''. But can atmasphere say where I made this statement about ''magical 70 microns''? I think that my answer to his ''made up stories'' about Nandric is suficient. I only repeated his own (technical) statements. |
Folks, just so you know, 50 microns is about the same as 2 mils (which is how groove deflection is measured in the US if you have American-made LP mastering gear). Many systems use microns these days as many cutter systems are European-made. 2 mils (ever so slightly over 50microns, which is ~1.97 mils) is standard level for 0VU at 1KHz on our lathe and cutter system (Scully lathe with Westerx 3D cutter head, Westerex 1700 mastering electronics with custom tube amplifiers for the cutter head). **3db more is 4 mils.** This is because 3 db more requires double the amplifier power to cut the groove. That would work out to 100 microns. Its really obvious why no-one other than Nandric has reported any tracking issues in this regard. Its because any arm made can track 2 mils (The older Technics 1200 machine we often use to test our cuts has no troubles doing it; we use this machine with an inexpensive cartridge to make sure that a groove we cut can be played by a common turntable). His magical number of 70 microns is about 1.43 db over 0VU on our system. That's not a hard value for most arms (including the humble Technics) to do as well. The Triplanar has no worries doing this- we've brought lathe cuts back to the shop and played them on our system no worries. The big danger in cutting louder tracks is usually overcutting the groove, not the tracking of the playback at this level, so long as you don't have the usual dangers such as out-of-phase bass or the like (out-of-phase bass can knock the stylus out of the groove). Since the groove noise tends to show up in the pressing process and even then is not a great concern if the mastering engineer did his job right, there really is very little call for going over 0VU when making the cut. So even though 70 microns is a very slight increase in volume, its also a really rare thing to encounter (the exception being 12" singles on 45rpm and the like). This is because going over 0VU means that the engineer is likely going to have to take some time to set up the groove cut so no playback problems are encountered. For the most part, mastering houses like to avoid that sort of thing because the typical cost of mastering is about $400/hour. So a mastering operation will take pains to avoid higher levels like that, even though most arms can play it no worries. So the conclusion is one or more of the following: 1) the Triplanar to which Nandric refers was/is damaged 2) he does not know how to set up an arm 3) the story is made up. IOW, the math just does not support his apparently ridiculous story. |
Hi ivanj, I left this forum because of censorship. Four of my posts in this thread are removed without any explantion. I am not aware that I ever insulted any member. I try to use arguments instead of ascriping attributes to persons. As I mentioned before the ''things'' that can be true or false are statements and not persons. It make no sense to say that a person is true or false. You can see in this thread that I am questioned as person and not my statements. This explains my metaphor about strawman. The other is ''shooting at messenger''. This was a prerogative of kings but at present any novice feels entitled to shoot at persons who say something that they not like. You obviously own some test records so you should know how easy is to refute my statement about tracking ability of Triplanar. My statement was made about my own Triplanar . This statement does in no way imply enything about other Triplanars. But nobody in this thread even try to refute my statment by repetition of the same experiment. Instead they questioned my integrity , even questioned if I own any Triplanar, then questioned my capability to adjust whatever tonearm ,etc., etc. Well I am in this hobby for more than 40 years and member of this forum since 2007. The anti-skate is very difficult problem for pivoted tonearms. The problem is the different force by different record radius as well the different stylus shapes. Curiously this tracking ability test which nobody seems to need or use can illuminate the working of anti- skate. The arm/cart combo start to mistrack by certain microns values. It start by the right channel. If,say, the right channel start to ''buzz'' by 60 microns by increasing the anti-skate force this can be corrected such that 60 microns will sound ''pure''. Now regarding Ikedas carts. My champion is FR-7fz. Next to the fz is the Ikeda 9 the cantileverless kind. I don't believe that this cart does not need anti-skate but this cart can't track more then 50 microns on any record. So this cart is very critical in regard to records condition. But its dynamics can only be compared with Deccas. |
Nandric, "I even use the anti-skate test in order to get some impression about the ''inside force'' . One can't get those 80 or 90 microns values without increaising of the anti-skate force . The right channel start with distortion first and need compensation with anti-skate. The German expression is ''Mu'' which means the same as micron." I've had (several) cartridges that need different anti-skating settings in different arms. I don't think that is a sign of a defective arm. Tuning anti-skate is a necessary condition for set up - although I know there are those that don't advocate it. I've also had cartridges that needed an anti-skate force that was less of more than the recommendation. I don't worry. One can also adjust the damping in the Tri-P. What is the recommended order of setting this in the Tri-P arm? I find this a big advantage with some cartridges like the cantilever-less Ikeda. What is your experience? Since I regretfully sold my FR-64(s) what are do you recommend with those wonderful cartridge? Search for Vinyl Aysulm for more specs on the arms - their significant parameters should be listed there. I would call the manufacturer. They seem very approachable. |
Back to our regularly scheduled programming ... |
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@nandric , the above and this: Shows that you are an adept at the Stawman. I never said I don't believe in test records, I just said I don't have any. Generating a false argument and then knocking it down is the very definition of the Strawman. Since you have engaged in logical fallacy, by definition your arguments are false. I don't know why you chose to troll this thread. My theory is you want to add status to your clearly outdated and outclassed older tonearms. That's just a theory though. I don't propose to have any idea what's really in your head, but its very clear that you don't have experience with a Triplanar, at least not one that is undamaged. |
The story about the ''strawman''. The German have this curious saying: ''there is nothing more simple than to refute a philosopher; one only need to read some other''. The case is that philosopher produce a strawman from their opponents and then beat him to death. The ''things'' which can be true or false are statements (propositions, sentences, etc). But even atmasphere who give me the lessons about quantifiers stated : ''I don't believe you''. He deed not quote any of my statements in particular so, obviously , I am a person who has the property of being always wrong. This would include all statements which I ever made. The other participants in this thread also forget to quote any of my statement but assumed that my Triplanar is defective ? Why? I assume because my sample can't track anything above 50 microns. However I wrote that 50 micron is sufficient for ''normal records'' but that I was surprised that my sample was not able to track more than 50 microns. This however does not imply that my Triplanar is defective. If other samples also skip out the groove by 60 microns this should mean that Triplanar has this ''property'' in general. There are low complience carts which can't track more than 50 microns by their design but nobody would qualify them as defective. No tonarm whatever can get 60 microns out of such a cart. My FR-64 was not able to track 90 microns by any cart even the Windefeld which claim 100 microns. So what other deed is ascribing to me things which I never stated which is the same as producing a strawman. |
Thanks mem2112 for your useful comments. I've talked to a few other people who have the TP/Universe combo, all have reported great results. nandric, sorry if I was a bit sarcastic but I still fail to understand your obsession with test records and being able to track 50 microns. If you suspect you have a problem, just send it back to Tri Mai and have him check it out. For the few bucks shipping, you'll have peace of mind and if you're still unhappy, you can sell it with a clear conscience. |
atmasphere, ''it also easily tracks the church Windows LP which has groove modulation well in excess of 60 microns.'' Interesting finding for someone who does not own a single test record and also does not believe in test records. Folkfreak, before sending my sample for repair I would like to know if my Triplanar is defective. But if other samples also skep the groove by 60 microns why should I? Anyway our member pbnaudio owns the same test record so no feelings, imagination, defence of the beloved one, excuses, assumptions ,etc.,etc., will be needed any more regarding the tracking ability of the Triplanar. Or so I hope. |
@nandric, it would appear that you prefer simple statement of facts, thus eliminating any confusion as to the meaning or intent. Please allow me to re-post my observations. To my ears, my Tri-Planar does not mistrack when playing music albums I don’t care if my Tri-Planar can track 50 microns on a test record I have no interest in the Higgs particle I do not like looking up Latin phrases when simple English will suffice I am interested in learning more about Tri-Planar SE Upgrade |
I really hope that you can refute my finding ... then I can sell my Triplanar without any guilt surely you want your findings to be confirmed? Otherwise it is clear your particular Triplanar is defective and hence unsaleable? FWIW I was a long time Triplanar owner and never found it to be a great tracker, it also lost control on complex passages with blown out bass and edgy sound. My current Durand unipivot was a major step up. In other words I suspect that Nandrics findings will be confirmed |
@nandric , I have several LPs which I recorded (the first being Canto General, music of Mikas Theodorakis). For that recording we got the biggest bass drum in the state, which was a good six feet across. I have the master tapes and I know how this recording is supposed to sound. The LP was cut without any processing whatsoever other than RIAA pre-emphasis. This LP does quite well as a test record for me as it has very wide dynamic range and very deep bass. Most arms can't play it right; the Triplanar is one of the very few that can. It also easily tracks the Church Windows LP which has groove modulation well in excess of 60 microns. As others have mentioned, the arm tracks everything you throw at it. In fact this arm taught me that the ability of the arm to track the cartridge correctly is far more important than the choice of cartridge. It is the most adjustable arm in the world and has the lowest friction bearings of any arm made. Regarding not believing you: Being quite familiar with Occam's Razor, right now its suggesting to me that there is a simple explanation here: despite claims of many arms and cartridges, you may not know how to set up a tone arm and/or you don't have and never had a Triplanar. |
pbnaudio, At last someone who is willing to check my finding. BTW this ''Schallplatte 2'' is my ''old companion'' for years. I even use the anti-skate test in order to get some impression about the ''inside force'' . One can't get those 80 or 90 microns values without increaising of the anti-skate force . The right channel start with distortion first and need compensation with anti-skate. The German expression is ''Mu'' which means the same as micron. I really hope that you can refute my finding. Then I can sell my Triplanar without sense of guilt (grin). |
I have the "Schalplatte 2" in route will try it on my 12" Tripalnar and report what it can track, have a choice of Cartridges Lyra Atlas, Etna and Ortofon MC Anna for high caliber MC - any particular combination you'd like to see ? Good Listening Peter https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6431#&gid=1&pid=8 Link to picture of the Denon DN308 rebuild with the triplanar in "fitting" mode :-) |
I purchaesd my Triplanar VII second hand a few years back. It was an 09 vi tage with rca leads. I did send it Tri last year for the se upgrade and maintenance go through. I would say that it is a worthwhile upgrade. Besides the cosmetic improvements with headshell and armtube changes, the arm sounds better. The silver wiring and maybe the arm tube definately improved the soundstage presentation. I have a Graham phantom elite to compare with and prior to the upgrade, The Graham easily had a more 3d presentation. The upgrade put the Triplanar in very similar company in my system. I have been using both a Transfiguration Proteus and Zyx Universe II. I have sttled on the Graham with the Proteus which is a spectacular combo and the Universe II paired with the Triplanar. So I am adding to this thread with my experience as a positive one with the upgrade. Cheers |
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brf, ''a problem which I feel does not exit''. Well existance is not as easy as you think. The most physicist may have believed that Higgs particle does exist but we in Europe spend huge amount of money to prove that this particle realy exist. What you feel is irrelevant for my question. You are entitled to say: ''I don't care about your question'' but you are not entitled to state that there is no tracking issue because you feel this way. What kind of argument is this; ''oratio pro domo?'' For such statement you would need to repeit my experiment and if your result is different you can then say: the issue does not exist because I checked with test records made for this purpose. As I mentiond before Benz LP S claims 80 microns by VTF of 2 g. while Windfeld claim 100 microns by 2,6 g. Do you think that such claims are based on feelings? |
rfogel8, Thanks for your advice but I would also need to ''trade in'' 40 of my MC carts, 30 MM carts and my Kuzma Stabi Reference in order to satisfy your advice. You started this thread with your question about Triplanar. My question is also about Triplanar. Your statement: ''this thread sure got weird'' can only mean that you don't like my question and the possible implication. ''Possible'' because my statement is about my own sample and does as such not imply that other samples also can't track more than 50 microns. But if this is also the case with other samples ??? Syntax is the only member who questioned Triplanar's construction in the other Triplanar thread. According to him the problem with Triplanar is its ''energy transfer''. Herb Papier was a watchmaker and not a mechanical engineer. So it may be the case that he deed not even thought about ''energy transfer'' as a relevant design issue. That my Triplanar skips the groove by 60 microns may be connected with this ''energy transfer'' but also may mean that my sample is a single exception and that all other samples can track 100 microns if the used cart also can. That you don't like my contribution does not imply that my question is irrelevant. Also the fact that most participants in this thread don't own or don't use any test records says something about them and not about the records themself. Every cart producer use test records for at least the measuring of the output as well the tracking capability of their carts. Interesting to know that our amateur members know better. |
This thread sure got weird. Not exactly the type of responses I was looking for when I started it. I've owned my TP for several years now and I can't recall ever playing an album and having a tracking issue. Like Ralph(atma-sphere), I don't own a single test record but I do own hundreds of LP's. Frankly, I'd rather listen to music than test the tracking prowess of my arm/cartridge. I think it's time for nandric to trade in his "record player" for a "perfect sound forever" cd player. |
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We're using English on this website, so despite your belief it was something that needed correction. Deal. I don't own any test records. Not a one. I listen to music, not audiophile records. Just music. This statement is outright false and I find it a bit offensive as I suspect others here do as well. What's really going on in my case is I just don't believe you. I am happy though to obtain the LP but its not available in the US. |
Well nobody (in this thread atmasphere) seem to think that those tracking ability test are of any importance. But some of the members concluded that my Triplanar is defective. Why? Because my sample is not able to track more than 50 microns? But I own MC carts which also can't track more than 50 microns. However nobody (in general atmasphere) would proclaim such carts as defective. Then, regarding manufacturers , why should they publish the tracking ability values in their specs if those are of no importance at all? |
Atmasphre, I don't belive that I need lessons about the use of quantifiers. I addressed the participants in this thread so my quantor ''nobody'' does not include the whole universe but only members who reacted to my post. You are also included because you also deed not answer my question. My question was if the Triplanar can track more then 50 microns on tracking ability test records. Among your 4000 records there should be some of those? In my answer to pbnaudio I mentioned the test records which I used. BTW I deed not say a single word about my Triplanar sound. I only stated to be surprised that MY Triplanar ''refused'' to track ''anything'' (aka ''any of my carts'') above 50 microns. So carts which can track 80 microns with my FR-64 skiped out the groove by 60 microns on the Triplanar. My advice to you is to read careful what other have written and not put your own inventions instead. |
@nandric, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. ’Nobody’ is incorrectly used in your posts so far. ’Some people’ might be a lot more accurate as I suspect that not everyone who has a Triplanar has seen this thread!! I don’t have any of the LPs to which you refer (having heard the 1812 far too many times I hope to never hear it again in my lifetime; I count myself amongst the privileged fortunate who have not heard the 1812 for over 2 decades and I’m going for a third). But I do have an LP mastering lathe and so far no matter the test tones we’ve cut the Triplanar has played them all without complaint and for that matter, every LP I’ve had except for one: That LP has a lot of bass on it and is a recent pop recording. Now I’m used to playing pop recordings with quite a lot of bass, so I was upset that this particular LP was having troubles (although the usual signs of mistracking were not showing up). So I took it to the studio and studied the grooves under the microscope. Its quite obvious that the LP was overcut. That can cause distortion so I have discounted this particular title as not being a contender. The way you’re making it sound is that there are possibly two titles in the world that the Triplanar won’t play. I have only about 8000 titles in my library so its highly likely that I won’t run into these titles (and if one of those involves the 1812 then we’re down to one) given how much music there is. These LPs don’t seem to be in the US for starters- so I would not jump to the conclusions as you appear to be doing! Do you know of a source for this test LP? I’d be happy to give it a shot as long its not cannon shots :) ! |
Elinor, By each cart manufacturer provide specifications among which recommended VTF and tracking ability expressed in microns. Say my Benz LP S claims 80 microns by 2g. My Ortofon Windfeld even 100 microns with 2,6g. On the other side my Ikeda 9 c does not claim anything but can't track more than 50 microns. As I wrote in my previous post 50 microns is sufficient for ''normal records''. But there are records which are more demanding like those Tchaikovski's cannon shots. Raul use this record to judge carts. The most cart/tonearms combos will skip the third shot. The same will happen with cart/tonearm combos by 60 microns if the combo is not able to track more than 50 microns. I see that nobody care to test his own combos but trust their hearing or intuition. Well I check all my (new) carts with my test records first. That is before listening to them. I was not able to confirm Windfeld but well LPS . To be more specific I never got 100 microns ''pure'' nor 90 microns but well 80 microns with 2 g by LPS. I do those tests with my FR-64 because this arm has removable headshell such that changing carts is much more easy then by Triplanar and other tonearms with fast headshells. So I was very much surprised when my Triplanar ''refused'' to track 60 microns and skipped the groove. This btw does no imply that the arm is defective because there are many low complience carts wich can't track more than 50 microns. But if whatever cart can track, say 70 microns , with my FR-64 but the same cart is not able to track 70 microns on my Triplanar I was curious to know why. That is why I posted my specific question. To my surprise nobody try the same experiment but invented all kinds of answers which are irrelevant for my question. |
Nandric I have no fear of trying a test record but honestly if I have a tonearm that tracks every record I own without issue with the exception of records I know to be imperfect so why would I need to resort to a test? This seems to be just another whacky thread which has driven me away from Audiogon forums. Signing off. |
nandric This is called ''testimonium paupertatis'' in old good latin. You don't even own the Triplanar but you pretend to know better than those who know what they are talking about. I assume that this is the influence of the Mexican. In empirical science no proof would be even considered without provision of repertory and controlable experiments. So I am still waiting for someone who checked my statement not by speculation but by testing his Triplanar with tracking ability test. What is curious isthe fact that I need to wait so long. Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. I have extensive experience with the Triplanar arm. That I don't happen to personally own one now is irrelevant. I am not sure what you mean about "influence of the Mexican." Nationality has nothing to do with this. It sounds like you suffer prejudice. Nandric, you're the one with the problem pickup arm. What's curious is that you prefer to complain about it, rather than to return it to the dealer or manufacturer for evaluation. Apparently, your preference is to suffer noisily. So I guess you're a very happy guy. |
Dear cleeds, This is called ''testimonium paupertatis'' in old good latin. You don't even own the Triplanar but you pretend to know better than those who know what they are talking about. I assume that this is the influence of the Mexican. In empirical science no proof would be even considered without provision of repertory and controlable experiments. So I am still waiting for someone who checked my statement not by speculation but by testing his Triplanar with tracking ability test. What is curious is the fact that I need to wait so long. |
nandric03-25-2017 12:13pm Dear cleeds, ''Your arm sounds defective'' is a curious statement. I am not aware that you listened to my arm. But if you performed tracking ability test and your Triplanar got more than 50 microns ''pure'' I will need to agree that my Triplanar is defective. What you've described sounds like your arm is defective, although it could also be a setup problem. I don't know why you think that's "curious." Why you should think that the way my pickup arm performs has any relationship to whether your arm is defective or not is quite curious, however. I don't own a Triplanar, btw. But you should be getting better performance from your arm than what you relate here. It's apparently under warranty - why not take advantage of that?? |
Elinor, ''any record'' should imply also ''test records''. But test records with ''tracking capability'' are made in order to show by which value (aka ''microns'') the arm /cart combo will start to mistrack. It is very curious that nobody is willing to try the same experiment which is very simple to repeat. Fear? |
Addition, I assume that Raul owns just one test record which contains those Tchaikovsky's cannon shots ? If an cart/tonearm combo is not able to track them then such combo's are dismissed. But to track those cannons at least 70 microns tracking capability is needed. That is why he recommends high compliance carts of even the MC ''nature''. Say the Ortofon MC 2000 which can do this jobe but is, alas, impossible to use because of its output: 0,05mV (grin).
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Dear cleeds, I bought the Triplanar VII new in the USA and paid 500 euro import duty. As I understand 50 microns (horizontal and vertical) should be sufficient for a ''normal record''. BTW I own some MC's with pretty low compliance which are also not able to track more than 50 micron on tracking ability test records. But I was surprised that my FR-64 which is at least twice as heavy can track 70-80 microns . However nobody made the same experiment in order to check my finding but persist in the well known ''denial strategy''. I stated that my sample was not able to track more than 50 micron with any of my MC carts and asked others to try the same experiment . Anybody who owns test records with tracking capabilty test can do this in 5 minutes time. If the results are different than my then I will know that my sample is possible defective. |
