Dear dover: I must add that that PURE MUSIC SIGNAL that pass through the internal tonearm wires when " touch " the IC cables that send it to the phonopreamp starts the continuos degradation of that true grooves modulations information all over each single link in the system audio chain.
Now, when any kind of distortions " disappear " in that first link ( cartridge/tonearm/TT ) then all the additional single system links distortions are more evident and we have to fine tune each of those system links and sometimes even change some of those links as cables or electronics even we have to adjust our seat position and the speakers position and a check up that the room treatment is not overdamped even to check the SPL we are listening in this totally new experience.
This check up of the SPL we are listening is important because when the distortions goes lower and lower we think that the volume/SPL of what we are hearing goes lower too but it's not really in that way. What's happening is that you are not hearing to the high distortions you were accustom to.
So, it's not to damp ( in any way ) the tonearm but we have to make and overall adjustment to all the audio system. Not an easy task and very time consuming but the rewards each one of us received are second to none.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
American logician& mathematician Quine wrote a book called ''From a logical point of view''. Talking about ''distortions'' without any specific description about any of them looks like those ''sets of all sets'' im mathematics. Those produced the so called ''set theoretic paradoxes'' of which not only Frege was a victim. I think that our Raul is also a victim of his ''distortions'' for the same reason. |
Raul, you're quite long winded and you bring a novel aspect to technical matters. Thought you might like to know, on another forum you're referred to as the 32 bit Bandito. Due to the length and number of your posts, I think Kraken might be more appropriate. To address your last post, did J. Carr say that all metal arms must be damped? I doubt it, but it doesn't matter. You use that as justification for: *IMHO no one can " to suck life out of the sound or smear it "" by damping a tonearm. You can't overdamp a tonearm.* With all your ear training I'm surprised you can't hear the affect of over-damping a tonearm. One can MEASURE a negative affect on transient response by over-damping. It also tends to kill the natural sustain of acoustic instruments. I agree with Dover, arms are easily over-damped. If it was Dgarretson who said that about vacuum hold down, I tend to agree with him. It's easy to suck the life out of the music by over-damping. I think you might be surprised by the number of people who add fluid damping to their arms. KAB sells a trough and paddle device that is popular, and it's very easy to DIY. Too many words Mr. Kraken, too many words. Sincerely, |
You might not care, but the Kraken was controlled by Poseidon, not Hades. |
Dear dover: """
I see Jonathan Carr uses a wrap on his FR64S arm tube but I do not like damping on tonearms as a general rule as it tends to suck life out of the sound and at worst smear the sound, particularly spongy or soft materials such as rubber, heat shrink, etc. """
first, things are that JC is cartridge designer and if there is a person that knows for sure the cartridge needs is a knowledged cartridge designer like JC. He knows that damping is a strictly necesity on any all metal tonearm ( raw steel or raw aluminum. Magnesium, boron and some other metals are less prone to resonate as steel. ) and that's why he likes that kind of damping with a tonearm non-damped design as 64/66.
I think that in the same thread that JC posted about I posted too ( several years ago. ) that I used a Sumiko set damping items where one of them was a piece of light " polymer " like to use it around the tonearm wand, wraping it.
second: """
I do not like damping on tonearms as a general rule as it tends to suck life out of the sound and at worst smear the sound ... """
years ago in this forum when I was talking of the after market vacuum platter hold down item that one gentleman here posted almost the same of you ""
to suck life out of the sound .. """" and as you he does not like it that item. I already said it: Dgarretson can identify between those distortions but he preffers the " alive " sound.
IMHO no one can " to suck life out of the sound or smear it "" by damping a tonearm. You can't overdamp a tonearm.
Why said I that?.
: in an audio perfect world with out TT/platter/arm board/tonearm/ vibrations/resonances/feedback/generated noise/ system/room air pollution and with perfect LPs the cartridge pick up the information exist in the LP grooves and before and after the cartridge makes its transducer job what we have and pass through the tonearm internal wires is just the recorded grooves modulations with no single added " noises " of any kind and this modulation grooves music information is what you, me and every one want to listen: THE PURE MUSICAL INFORMATION that a well self damped transducer/cartridge gave us. RIGHT?
Now, that is what happens in a non existent analog audio world and no one will listen it in that way never ever.
Things are that all of us for all our audio life were and are listening to many " things/distortions "" and never the pure signal. All of us are accustomed to the non-perfect world and that's why you and many of us do not like that " suck life out/smear/ the like " kind of sound when that sound is nearer to the LP grooves modulations.
We like more alive kind of sound even if it's wrong, as I said we like it because we are accustomed to it.
That's why I posted that we have to give enough time to the totally " new " experience and I mean: months not days or weeks.
Now, I'm talking only of analog rig but a home audio system has other links: electronics, cables, speakers, room, etc. etc where are generated additonal distortions ( every kind. ) that puts all our systems far away of what is in the LP grooves modulations.
That's why I always say ( for years in this and other forums. ) that the difference between a good system and a better system are each one system distortions generated levels and that the main target ( at least for me. ) must be to mantain at minimum those distortions in each link of the audio chain and to do this we have to have the training to identify ( step by step for many self experiences years. ) at least the 80% of those distortions because if we can't do it we can't fix it and we can't know where all they comes.
When you , after listening time, finally are accustomed to that very low system distortions you can't go back: no return. When you there you can in easy way evaluate any system you listen to and even if you don't listen it because you know the system items that are the worst in that system. Here the subject is the 66 but we can talk of other " generators ".
Now, take a look to the " best " tonearm designs: Technics, Lustre, MS, Triplanar, 4P, Schroeder, today DaVinci, etc, etc. where a common characteristic is that all are very well damped, because a dedicated mechanism or the blend tonearm build damped materials. Even the SME V ( with the dynamic balanced " problem ". ) comes with oil damping.
Many of you have the faulty desined 66 and even that's a whole faulty design ( as the MS RX TT. ) you are trying to tweak those items: go figure!!!
I made and make item modifications only if the product is a really good original design and it's worth to make those up-grades. Well, that's me.
Btw, with or with out the 66/64 I do not like the KR. The only K I like is the KRSP and CoralStone but in both cases nothing to die for.
No, I'm not willing to explain in deep about because to understand it I have to explain where ( in a home system ) belongs the music and this subject alone is for a complete thread.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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Dear syntax: """
still writing his ringing nonsense like a broken record. The usual pain for brain. Old men never learn anything I guess. Buy some better electronics. You are not a perfectionist. """
I can't argue on your opinion that it's Your Opinion and I respect it.
As any one else we all are rpoud of what we have in our home audio system.
You are extremely proud of what you own. Any one can " see " it when you took the time to those all system individual items pictures in your virtual system and I can see that you still like the same " noise/distortion generator ""
You own not one FR but both the 64 and 66 and additional you have the RX MS TT that's a terrible one ( yes I own it. ), a design| with several drawbacks: a platter that ring like a bell, motor unit by Technics/Panasonic but very bad circuit parts and circuit board on the motor/control unit, non damped TT design with a terrible mistake because MS choosed to put the four arm boards exactly in the worst place that is where stay the TT foots where all kind of resonances/vibrations pass through each foot and directly are transmited to the all metal arm boards, etc, etc. I can go on on those so many design faults. In those regards the SX version is the same.
Of course, you like tubes and some times SS too and several other " generators .. "
Like you I owned, own or listened almost all the cartridges you have but one of the Koetsu stone version and maybe other 1-2 cartridges you own.
Good for you tha are so proud ( like me. ) with what you have and speaks of what kind of distortions you are enjoying.
Now, please make a favor toall of us and put some light on how the 66 helps a cartridge to it can shows at its best. Why and how? where and which are those 66 advantages or unique atributes that are so good for a phono cartridge?
I already posted why not with a wide explanation here and in some other threads several years ago in the same way I did t with the MS RX/SX TTs.
I'm sure that if you have is because you know for sure those 66 advantages and the whys of each one advantage to fullfill the cartridge needs, so I ask you how the 66 cover each cartridge needs.
If you can do it will be appreciated ( I'm sure ) for all of us and if you stay in silence then for sure you have nothing on hand other that the worst kind of audiophile " runaway ": "" I like it. ""
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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fleib: Maybe I did not explain the right way ( as almost happens. ). What are in " game " here? only the static/dinamic balance design?
no, there are several issues that play an important role about and one of them is the type of tonearm bearing, its quality and its friction levels in that bearing.
The FR tonearms were not designed with today best bearings and certainly not with a friction as low as the one ( example ) by Technics vintage tonearms of 4mg.
This low friction bearings ermit that the cartridge in the crests/valleys tracks in very gentle way putting at minimum the changes in VTF/VTA, these Technics are statics designs and not 12" long.
In a dynamic balanced design with the 66 characteristics the crests pushed harder the cantilever/suspension in the cartridge because the dynamic mechanism always is pushing in the other direction but the LP crest has more force.
Try to find a EPA-100MK2 and make all the tests you want it against the 66 and then return to enlight about.
Btw, any of you 66 owners please go with a good " technician " and ask that he ( in your face. ) open the 66 tonearm bearing case and you will see the kind of tonearm bearing you today are " hearing " and trusting in.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Raul - instead of talking about distortions - it would be more helpful if you simply described your experiences with Koetsu's which is what the op is using, and what differences in sound you heard between various arms. Which arm do you prefer and how does the sound differ in your preferred arm differ from the FR64 with a Koetsu installed in both.
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Fleib -
Just the bit about the spring mechanism & dynamic balance.
I agree that dynamic balance helps to maintain constant track force on warped records, but if you are not playing warped records then static balance should be fine. In my experience dynamic balance can suck life out of the sound. For me optimum for the FR64S is a mix of both. As I said in my post above I have removed the spring mechanism from some tonearms and there has been an audible improvement ( on non warped records ) to my ears.
As far as the ringing goes - its overrated in my view. I have heard in my system at worst a little sharpness in the upper midrange ( this is what they refer to I presume ) but as I suggested in my post above in my experience this can be eliminated by careful set up - optimising the counterweight mass, headshell selection, cable, arm board material etc, getting VTA, azimuth & tracking force absolutely dialled in.
I see Jonathan Carr uses a wrap on his FR64S arm tube but I do not like damping on tonearms as a general rule as it tends to suck life out of the sound and at worst smear the sound, particularly spongy or soft materials such as rubber, heat shrink, etc. |
Dover, Sorry I didn't see this sooner. You accept this nonsense as correct, or just the part about a noisy mechanism? >>additional we have to remember that the 64/66 are dynamic balanced designs and all dynamic balanced designs always generate ringing ( noise/distortions. ) through the dynamic mechanism but two tonearm design: the MAX 237/282 and Luste GST-801. Adding to that problem the micro and macro waves in the LP recorded surface makes that in a dynamic balanced tonearm design the " normal " continuous changes in VTA/SRA/VTF that always exist in any tonearm ( static balanced included. ) been more pronounced do that when there is a crest in the LP surface the deflection in the cartridge cantilever is higher in a dynamic balanced design that in the static balanced one that works with natural gravity where in the dynamic the mechanis always force to mantain the VTF but when is against a crest the cantilever is pushed up making a higher cantilever deflection.
In both kind of tonearm designs exist the problem but in the dynamic one is bigger. Normally when the human been goes against the mother nature fall down.<< These are the ravings of someone who makes things up, or doesn't understand what he reads. When a static balanced cart is riding up a warp VTF is substantially reduced. The cart/arm is accelerating upwards. What happens when VTF is reduced? VTA is steeper angle. At the crest VTF/VTA are more affected with a static balanced cart and it's much more likely to mistrack. Due to the constant spring action a dynamically balanced cart will maintain a more even VTF. Back in the '80s we were setting up dynamically balanced arms by splitting the force. Regards,
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Dear dover: """
I like the "distortions" in my system..."""
I think that everyone likes " the distortions in each one system ". Now and trying to be constructive: in this thread and the one spéaking of tonearms longer than 12" I posted almost all my first hand experiences on the kind of distortions generated by those long tonearms or non-damped tonearms, I talked about specific distortions that today I can detect and I can discriminate between those distortions and music information.
The kind of distortions you are accustom or Syntax or Halcro or other gentlemans here I was accustomed for many years and is extremely dificult to " let it goes ".
I had and have success doing that when I learned to detect/discriminate the diferent type of distortions and very critical issue was that I gave enough time ( lñistening. ) to my brain to LISTEN music with out ( well mantainning at minimum. ) those distortions.
For time I mean months of continuous listening daily sessions and in between making tests with the " old ditortions " till I was sure that those distortions were distortions. This long experiences makes that today I listen to lower distortions and more music information.
If you can't recognise some kind of distotions then you can't do anything about. Btw, it's more easy to do it with SS electronics that with tubes but I don't want to open an additional window for discussion on this topic.
The subject is not: I like my system distortions " but to know how those distortions sounds and if you like your system performance quality level with those detected distortions rthat is another matters.
I think that in this thread Dgarretson posted that he detected the tonearm distortions I'm talking about along the same type of sound through his SS electronics experiences.
The important subject is that " he KNOWS " and he accepted that likes those distortions. I think that he needs to give a longer time to the listenning with out those distortions.
Anyway, as you said mine is only an additional opinion.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear syntax: It’s obvious that with your audio system you can cause impact to audiophiles that could think that a 300K-500K system must performs with the higher quality level ever we can dream.
I experienced not one time but four different times audio systems in that price range and at least in one the quality perfromance did not honored that high price.
In the other side I experienced in dozens of audio systems coming from as low 35K that belive it or not beats that megabucks systems and many of them are very near of those high price systems.
Dover, posted something very important: """ system and how well the gear is set up ... """ and I can add that if the system right set up is important it’s more important the right choices on each single link in the audio chain and this means the right knowledge audio/music level.
IMHO, if you use an all metal non damped tonearm in the analog rig it does not matters how and with which audio chain that tonearm is surrounded. The overall quality performance of that system will be poor due to that weak link.
The same is valid on each audio system link. TTs no exception and you like heavy impressive/good looking weight TT as many audiophiles but you forget that if it’s true that heavy platters helps in BD system to mantain in easy way spinning the platter we have to remember that that heavy metal platter ( it does not matters if it’s air bearing design. ) at the very first time it starts to spin that static mass is coverted in dynamic mass and starts to " vibrates " at micro levels but the cartridge is a very sensitive " microphone "/ vibrations detector and even if we don’t know it the cartridge knows about those vibrations generated in that heavy mass platters in any TT.
As this " phenomenon/curiosity " are all what I posted here and elsewhere that makes distortions.
That you like it is fine with me. I learned and you will sooner or latter. Knowledge level and not the money is what counts to have the best the audio system quality performance.
Knowledge level, skills, set up and some kind of money. In that order.
I know for sure the kind of distortions you like it ( your system speaks it self, I don’t need to listen it ) that are worst than mines.
Anyway, I still learned from this thread including your post. As I said, a thread is not a contest in between participants and exist no challenge or challengers but people like me trying to learn. Got it????
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Ps: " I hope you can learn on what Dover posted:
"""" you are correct in your comments about the dynamic balance mechanism ( which is a coiled spring ) used for setting the vertical tracking force.... """, these are tghe kind of distortions you loved, good!.
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Syntax, I’m a bit more relaxed around Rauls posts. At the end of the day opinions are only in the context of the rest of the system and how well the gear is set up. I like the "distortions" in my system...I try to get them close to the distortions I hear at our local concert hall, not quite the poise and balance of the magnificient Berlin Philharmonie hall, but not too bad.
As far as the FR's go - I have found the set ups recommended by yourself and Dertonam been invaluable. The FR's are capable of going from 0 to 100 very much depending on how well they are setup. This is probably true of other much maligned gear - it is unfortunately a common audio hazard. |
Well, Raul is still writing his ringing nonsense like a broken record. The usual pain for brain. Old men never learn anything I guess. Buy some better electronics. You are not a perfectionist. You love yourself. That's the difference you never got. A time waster who never got the ability to combine the strengths of different designs. Stop declaring yourself as an expert. It is a slap into the face of everyone who tries to push the sonic curtain. |
Raul - you are correct in your comments about the dynamic balance mechanism ( which is a coiled spring ) used for setting the vertical tracking force. I have removed the dynamic balance mechanism from some tonearms and you can hear a cleaner sound with less distortion. Removal is hazardous and not for the faint hearted as it is imperative that the bearings are not disturbed.
I have a couple of FR64S’s - here are a few tips that may apply to the FR66 as well -
I use a combination of dynamic and static balance to set tracking force. Basically what I am doing is putting a minimal amount of dynamic force to load the spring to reduce noise in the mechanism and then use the counterweight to set tracking force ( static ). Typically for my Koetsu I would dial up between 0.5 and 1g of dynamic balance and then adjust the counterweight to bring the tracking force up to 1.9gm or whatever.
Optimising the counterweight ( I have multiple counterweights for the FR64S, each of different mass ) is also an effective tool with the FR64S. Optimising the counterweight/reducing the headshell mass and using a combination of static and dynamic balance can improve the resolution and speed of this arm quite substantially in my experience.
I have also made a metal jig to ensure that the FR64S's that I use are installed with a 231.5mm pivot to spindle distance. It is accurate to 0.1mm and this pivot to stylus distance recommended by Dertonam makes for a considerable audible improvement over the factory recommended 230mm.
The other tip I found quite by accident. My Final Audio VTT1 only has facility for 1 tonearm, and having owned a Platine Verdier as a second deck I decided to sell it as the performance of the Platine Verdier was so far below the Final Audio I never used the Platine in practise. So I made a cantilevered pod to mount a second arm on the Final. This was constructed from a laminated crosscut bamboo block and a panzerholz arm board. I chose these materials simply because I had them in my workshop and they are easy to machine at home. The main arm pod on the Final is a gunmetal cylinder and gunmetal arm board. When I mounted my FR64S on the panzerholz/bamboo pod the upper midrange sharpness was gone. There appeared to be no downsides. Previously I had mounted the FR64S on the gunmetal pod and the upper mid sharpness is exposed. With the removal of this resonance peak I can hear more into the midrange and seemingly more depth to the soundstage.
The only other comments I would make is that the headshell leads, headshell, arm board material, cable & setup make a massive difference in the perceived performance of these arms. I agree with ct0517 that the Dynavector ( I also own a Dynavector 501 ) is a flatter and more even response with most cartridges but the bass issues that he alludes to is his post with the FR64S can be easily dialled out with careful set up.
As others have noted in the thread there are better arms - I personally prefer my Eminent Technology ET2 linear tracker and Naim Aro unipivot but the FR64S is a very good match with the Koetsu range in my experience and "the best arm" can be variable depending on cartridge. For example the Naim Aro destroys the both the FR64S and Dynavector 501 with my Dynavector Karat Nova 13D ( medium compliance LOMC ). On the other hand the Koetsu’s sound fragile on the Naim Aro and I prefer the FR64S with the Koetsu even though I lose a little speed and resolution through the midrange.
In my view the FR’s design goal is to provide a stable platform for the the FR7 low compliance cartridges and Ikeda cantilever-less cartridges. I also own an Ikeda Kiwame - you need an arm with exceptional gimbal bearings and structural stability to get the best performance out of this cartridge. The designer has chosen to trade off other parameters such as high effective mass and in the case of the FR7 a suboptimal alignment in order to achieve the stability he requires for his cartridges. Isamu Ikeda eschews the use of unipivots and jewelled bearings for this reason.
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Dear analogluvr: " pretty good for a 300$ cartridge ", yes for that money is good because it makes sounds but that cartridge is part of the low-fi items where the Rosewood belongs to the mid-fi audio items. Your nsx is better performer ( I owned ) and the Fe5 is even better and as you know these Audioquest designs were manufactured by Scan-Tech ( same as Lyra. ) to the Audioquest specs/characteristics. Btw, as all the gentleamns here that " D4 the 66 noise/distortions generator " you only said: " keep it " but as the other persons give no single reason why that tonearm can fullfil the cartridge needs and makes the cartridges really shines. Could you put some light about? Seems to me that I was and am the only one that make a wide explanation why not keep that tonearm and here more about that long tonearm: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/tonearms-longer-than-12-inches/post?postid=1289088#1289088additional we have to remember that the 64/66 are dynamic balanced designs and all dynamic balanced designs always generate ringing ( noise/distortions. ) through the dynamic mechanism but two tonearm design: the MAX 237/282 and Luste GST-801. Adding to that problem the micro and macro waves in the LP recorded surface makes that in a dynamic balanced tonearm design the " normal " continuous changes in VTA/SRA/VTF that always exist in any tonearm ( static balanced included. ) been more pronounced do that when there is a crest in the LP surface the deflection in the cartridge cantilever is higher in a dynamic balanced design that in the static balanced one that works with natural gravity where in the dynamic the mechanis always force to mantain the VTF but when is against a crest the cantilever is pushed up making a higher cantilever deflection. In both kind of tonearm designs exist the problem but in the dynamic one is bigger. Normally when the human been goes against the mother nature fall down. I hope you will be the person that can explain that " keep it ". regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Crazy bill if you have a 66S keep it! Also have to agree with another poster that you may be well served to audition some other phonostages, no insult intended. If I could humbly recommend the Herron vtph2. Also agree with atmasphere regarding the triplanar.
A while back I bought a 103r to see what the fuss was about. Had it on an et2 and it is pretty good, just under my reference audioquest 7000nsx. Then I mounted it to an et1 which is a massive affair. Now it matches my reference which was around 3k 25 years ago. Pretty good for a 300$ cartridge. |
Crazy Bill,
I also have a Sonic Frontiers phono signature. What tubes are you using? I recently upgraded to Mullard 6DJ8's (from Sylvania) & am impressed with the change. It's always thrown a huge stage, now it has that with more presence and definition. I've been running Mullard 12AT7's for years now & will have to be making a change there soon. Thinking about Bugle Boy's. Looking for your opinion.
Thanks, Tim |
Crazy Bill, The choice of headshells makes a significant contribution to the sound of a particular cartridge/arm combination. I find it pointless to waste time on ’theoretical’ speculation on this subject when it is so so easy to experiment. I have tried every type of available headshell in my FR-66s (except for the Arche) including the FR3, FR5, Yamomoto HS1-AS, Ortofon HS-8000 and various aluminium and magnesium ones. They can all sound well with the appropriate cartridge. FWIW I have found a rule of thumb to work most of the time... - Metal-bodied cartridges sound rather better with wood shells
- Plastic-bodied cartridges sound rather better with metal shells
- Wood-bodied cartridges sound rather better with metal or ceramic shells
Have fun..... |
Hello all,
I'm keeping the FR66s. Many, many thanks to those who have offered advice in this endeavor. Much appreciated.
Just a little more advice please. I have three headshells in house.
I've got the Arche w/ the aggelos leads, an LP Gear Zupreme with 1877 Phono Devils Hair leads, and a NOS Supex ( I think ) headshell that my buddy who gave me the FR66s and the Koetsu used to mount it.
I'm a little worried that the effective mass of the Arche w/ the FR66s would be too high to mate OK with the Koetsu, and maybe I should procure a lighter headshell, maybe a Ebony or other wooden Yamamoto.
Those of you who have any experience here, please advise.
As always, thanks in advance for any advice.
Cheers, Crazy Bill
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Dear Fleib, I may have missed some of those metaphorical ''stairs'' involved by Raul's ''learning curve'' but I also believe that he missed the first ''stair'' in logic. From my study of logic I learned that the neccesary condition to express a thought clearly is to have one. One would think that languge is the added condition. But consider those international gatherings of scientist. ''Our own'' Lewm visited many so he is the right person to explain the issue. Those gatherings imply many peoples from different countries all speaking different languages. The known fact is that, say, Chanese and Japanese are not ''masters'' in English language which is considered to be standard. How then are those scientist supposed to understand each other? Well the answer is that they have the same terminolgy belonging to their specific science. One can also say ''the same vocabulary''. Thst is all they need in order to understand each other about their own subject matter. But we also have some kind of ''common terminology'' for our analog hobby. In our forum it is ''not done'' to criticize anybodies English but it is obvious that Raul is difficult to understand despite of his ''long term'' use of this language. Anywy this is assumed by ,at least, some members. But I think that the reason is not the languge but the lack of clear thoughts. |
Dear dgarretson: """
The Kuzma is absolutely free of HF noise artifacts. Its spooky calmness suggests either a slight HF roll-off, or if not roll-off, then damping at a threshold that might be confused by "uneducated" ears as a roll-off or loss of air or extension. As I have the same reaction to very low-noise SS electronics like my Pass XP-25 phono stage or XA-160.8 monoblocks, I’m coming around to the idea that my ears have been reeducated to listen for what’s missing(distortions) as much as what’s included(music). """
Exactly, that's what I'm talking about. In the other side I agree about your tonearm bearing explanation because aditional we have to think that always exist feedback through those bearings.
"""
partly by virtue of its particularly open and alive sound-- similar to what Raul alludes to as favorable to Japanese audiophiles of the vintage era. If these be distortions, then at this level of performance I’m willing to accept even subtle distortions into the realm of taste. """
of course that that that " realm of taste " is what normally moves our actions through the audio " road ". Now, all of us are accustomed for " hundreds " of years to higher distortions that can be tolerated when we learn about and be aware of those distortions. I can't " blame " you or any one to like some kind of reproduced sounds only to encourage any one that want to do it to start a voyage to learn for through the time self experiences ( like yours. ) can discern/be aware of those distortions distortions that does not exist in the recording ( as Chris detected through the same master tape/LP comparisons. This is clear evidence and no one needs to prove anything else about. ) and that were generated ( in the tonearm uner " eyes " in this thread. ) by the tonearm. What we like is not enough argument but try to reproduce the recording LP mantaining distortions at minimum and the tonearm is a critical link in that desired target.
Dgarretson, I can tell you that because you know very clear the live music sound if you give time to that "
slight HF roll-off, or if not roll-off, then damping at a threshold that might be confused by "uneducated" ears as a roll-off or loss of air or extension ..""" you will take in count that that is the right and natural way how that LP recordings has to sounds. We have to give that time because each one of us ears has 30-50 years accustomed to very high distortions. Thank's to enlight and enrich that main and critical audio/music subject.
Regards and enjoy the music, R.
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Raul, You're trying to win an argument instead of making a recommendation or two. That was the request of OP. It's all right to support what you say with technical information, but if the only way you can do that is by insulting others, you're not going to win the argument you started. You seem to assume you're the only one who can hear (discern audio differences). You assume too much. If I may suggest, discuss something like the amplitude of resonance and ways it can intermodulate and affect the sound, and refrain from saying you can hear it and someone else can't. That last part is implied and saying it will only alienate others. You seem all wound up and out to prove something. Why don't you give that TEA BS a rest, and lighten up? Regards,
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Well, Raul can certainly speak for himself. Except I'm afraid when he does it sometimes throws more kindling on the fire.
So consider this, English is not his native language. And to make matters worse I suspect he does not review his own posts closely so that typos or spell-check sometimes alters what I assume may be his intent.
I had the chance to meet Raul when he visited the US some years ago. I found him to be a gracious and considerate person. And obviously one with deep passion for music and the home reproduction of recorded examples. This passion results in his having direct experience with more different audio components than most us have had or likely ever will have.
So you can read his comments/suggestions and take them to stimulate your own experiments, or dismiss them as you see fit. There are posters here and on other sites who I simply skip over because I've learned we are too far apart in our perspectives that my reading would be of any value. Maybe a few here could do that with Raul if that's how you feel. Peace! |
Dear stringree: Appreciated.
The ignorance in the people makes that when any one shows them something they are ignorant at once puts at defensive and if they can't understand it then go inside in a deep frustration like almost all the gentlemans here.
They have no real arguments other rthan express their deep frustration. Additional to that they are not willing to " hear " and are so frustated because their high ignorance level on the subject that even fall in insults.
Other problem is that they want to beat me in the discussion and because they can't do it and never will and not because I'm right ( because I can be wrong. ) but because they don't understand the overall subject and have no arguments to " fight ".
Understand northing about even with facts and clear evidence that all of them are wrong with the CT0517 ( Chris. ) post where he made the comparison to find out those distortions through the master tape recording and he detected those distortions and not only him but the gentleman experience I posted and even Dgarretson did it it does not matters if he likes those " alive " distortions because I'm not talking here what we like but what is right, that's way diferent.
Again your post appreciated.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Nandric
Dear Chris, You provoke me with your Slivovitz I provoke Stringreen with his violin. No disputes without provocation
and no intersting discussion without disputes. BTW what kind of (ex) Balkanese are you when you don’t
drink this stuff (aka ’’plum brandy’’) ? Dear Nicola I think you missed a few provokes here .. 8^0 regarding violins and your mention of the guitar and harmonies. My daughter plays piano and my son the acoustic guitar. They are both amazing instruments, but this violin that you described as anemic, shrill and shabby looking... has the power to make me fall to my knees and cry. http://ultraanaloguerecordings.com/wpsite/sample-tracks/listen to the Vitali Chaconne sample track - 7th from the bottom. 25 seconds in. I guess it all depends on who is playing it and where on the chin it is being held ? re; Slivovitch - you make it sound so sweet. Are we talking about the same thing? the stuff I am talking about can clean out your veins. If I wasn’t enjoying the endorphins high from running, I would just not run and drink that colorless looking water instead. My knees are now my biggest liability. (Achilles Knees ?) Red Wine goes well in winter. Beer in summer. sorry for off topic post Crazy Bill. |
Hello Testpilot,
I am keeping the FR66s, and I do like my SF. But I'm always willing to try other things. I've got a Fully balanced op-amp kit from Twisted Pear in house that I'll be building w/ battery PS when I find the time to do that.
Got any recommendations on a different riaa. As long as I've got an audition period w/ return, I'll try anything reasonable.
thanks, Crazy Bill |
There is a world of difference between the SFP-1 in any version and my unit, the Phono 1. In addition, I have the SE+ upgrades, which includes new PS lytics, new Vishay resistors, and New V-Cap TFTF and OIMP coupling caps.
It appears my budget has been increased to the 10K area, so I'm sure this is going to murky the waters somewhat. I had the Sonic Frontiers Phono 1 and I put every shade of lipstick on that Pig and even sent to Chris Johnson for cosmetic surgery with every upgrade possible. Countless dollars spent, dozens of tubes rolled and in the end, it still was a just a Pig. With a budget of $10K, I would highly recommend investing some of that money into a new phono stage as that will give you a greater return on sound improvement than changing out the excellent FR66s. |
Dear wrm0325: """
I won't respond to his gibberish in the hopes he just goes away. """
That has no sense because was you who ask and made me specific question and in my last post to you I try to gave a wide explanation for each one of your question and now you posted that????
Make sense to you?, maybe your moniker is not really a moniker.
In the way that a shooter wears his weapons you know if it's Billy The Kid and you want to be a shooter but things are that you have not weapons: go figure!
It's obvious that if any one like you ask through a thread for help ( like you. ) is because you are not prepared and have not the knowledge level to take the right choice for your self and this talks per se that you are not only over the average step in the ladder audio knowledge lever but way down that average step . At least is what you already showed here as other gentlemans in the thread.
Nothing wrong with that, sooner or latter you will learn. Have faith on that.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Chris, You provoke me with your Slivovitz I provoke Stringreen with his violin. No disputes without provocation and no intersting discussion without disputes. BTW what kind of (ex) Balkanese are you when you don't drink this stuff (aka ''plum brandy'') ? |
You know, during my Audiophile Turntable Bedlam phase -
I found differences between idler, belt, thread and DD in my room.
Halcro - And you don’t find that concerning?
Please explain to me what a cartridge knows about ’drive-type’? C’mon Henry, don’t you remember Goldilocks and the Three Tables ! https://goo.gl/photos/doHmVDbzSDaEHMqh9You know I remember you gave me some really nice feedback on my system thread about the review ? Let me go try to dig up some info. Unfortunately this new A’gon format conversion has has not been completed to the virtual pages. I did a search for Goldilocks. Here it is. Hi Chris,
I really enjoyed reading your Goldilocks and the three turntables.
You have reached some informative opinions after conducting thorough and useful in-loci experimentation.
I value your methodology and the conclusions you have assembled here.
Regards
Henry
halcro June 21, 2012 07:03 You may see the review again for the details you are looking for. It’s all there. The pic I linked in my google is one of 39 on my new AudioGon virtual system slide show. A picture of Goldilocks is there too :^) You know, that was some crazy shite (sic) back then..... I mean since I consider myself a full time music lover, and only part time audiophile. So I agree with you Henry - it was very concerning but relatively safe. Safer than racing anyway. It was therapeutic, took my mind off of some bad stuff that was happening during those times. @Nandric re: your comment to Stringreen Now considering your violin ’’argument’’. I never understood why all those composers wrote for this anemic, shrill and shabby
looking and sounding instrument in any orchestra? As you confessed yourself the ’’thing’’ sounds different everywhere
and even under your own chin. lol - looking forward to Stringeen’s response. Nandric
One should listen to the guitar music instead. The strings are fast the fundamentals as easy to hear as the
harmonics an ideal instrument to judge any system. Even better to judge carts. Nicola - so what happens to your carts after they have been judged ? Very good to hear you are doing well.... like my Slivovitch. (grin) @Crazy Bill - regarding headphones. I am about to turn 54 next month. Have had my own space for listening since I was a kid (bedroom) I still remember my first TT in there. Think I was 12? A heavy white kenwood. marbly looking thing with a belt like my mom’s hoover. I think I tried to swap them one time. anyway. no headphone use. had a pair. Didn’t like them. Koss? When I met my wife she moved in with me and and we used to entertain so the gear was always there in front. No headphones yet. In ’94 our fraternal twins were born and I really did try headphones and wanted them to work. I really wanted them to work ! ! No luck. So I started building out the 1st panic room in our basement. Cheers Even Crazier Chris :^) |
john tracy,
Not on topic but...What phono do you have that beat the sonic frontier? Just curious, I've been thinking about replacing mine at some point.
crazy bill,
Thanks for the topic, very entertaining. |
You know, during my Audiophile Turntable Bedlam phase - I found differences between idler, belt, thread and DD in my room. And you don't find that concerning? Please explain to me what a cartridge knows about 'drive-type'? |
" flieb "
" Who unleashed the Kraken ? "
Couldn't have said it any better.
well done.
I won't respond to his gibberish in the hopes he just goes away.
There are some other things I wish to address, but it will have to wait until later on, as the NFC title game is about to begin.
Cheers for now, Crazy Bill |
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Crazy Bill,
We should all have friends like you do...😜
You have a great arm and in the future, with its detachable headshell....you may like to explore other cartridge options.
For now at least....do what Harry suggests and drive a car or even better....Enjoy the Music.
Regards
|
Who unleashed the Kraken? |
Dear wrmo325: "" You are quite the PIECE OF WORK. And that’s not a compliment. """ That’s not my target here or in any other internet audio forum. """ "Are your ears trained in a specific way to discriminate subtle distortions ". No. Of course not. Are YOURS ? And if so, who trained you and what are their qualifications and what is their methodology ? I doubt you’ll have an answer ... """" yes mine are. No one can gives you that kind of trining other that by your self if you know what you are looking for by your experiences and sometimes by " accident ". I say by accident because with some kind of distortions/anomalies I discovered the diference ( on reproduced sound. ) between a error on cartridge mount overhang: Things were that I mounted a cartridge and did not re-check ( as usually do and not used my evaluation methodology neither. ) the overhang set up and during playback ( that was a very good cartridge performer. ) everything " sounds " good but next day my felling was that even that I listen a good performance quality " somethimng " din not made click in my brain and started my evaluation methodology ( a well proved and repeatable " bullet proof " method. ) and then I knew that really was a wrong set up and when re-check the overhang it was out of position by more than 4 mm. I followed making tests with diferent overhang errors till was clear for me how to detect that kind of errors against other kind of distortions. """ And THAT is the basis for my judgements on what sounds like real instruments and music when reproduced, ... """ as you my reference is live music. I still attend each month to at least 4 live music events that helps me not only to know the real sound of any instrument but that helps me to understand the differences between that live music experiences and a home audio system experiences why and what to do to improve our home experiences. """ " because I know people in this thread that can’t discriminate the IMD " Really, name them. Tell us who they are so they can either confirm your accusations that they’re stupid or defend themselves against them. I’m going to guess that no names will come forth, .... """ Year ago when I already had connected two subwoofers in true stereo fashion in my system I gave an advise to that gentleman in this thread. I told him that due that the crossover frequency in the woofer speaker is to high he had higher IMD that what he can imagine. His answer was a precise NO and explained to me that his marvelous speakers are custom made by " God " and needs nothing at all. Time later I started a thread about and posted this: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058after that some one ( latter ) told him again about subs and he followed in that road and even that he knew all the thread information ( by me and other Agoner’s. ) he took a bad choice of subs that he can’t connect in true stereo fashion ( latter he had to bought and additonal kit to do it. That additional kit means additional distortions because was not in the sub opriginal design. ) and that has higher distortions that what we recomended in that thread and then he choosed a " weird " room position for those subs that as Chris posted here ( i told him that problem with. ) not the best place to do it. Obviously for this gentleman the overall sound in his system is " out this world ". In those " old times " I made several advises to him in cartridges ( MM/LOMC ) but he always said no. Even I told him here in Agon the advantage with similar TT as my Denons to try the naked/no plinth in similar TT as the JVC and others. As always negative answer. Time latter because other Agoner that follows my advise told him that really works he started about. I think that like amonth he posted that he " discovered " a better way to the JVC naked set up and things are that years ago I gave to him ( I posted . ) that same way to make the set up that he " discovered " after all those years. Years ago he posted: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/why-the-sudden-popularity-of-12-inch-arms/post?postid=340132#...and my answer to that was this post: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/why-the-sudden-popularity-of-12-inch-arms/post?postid=340140#...and this gentleman is the same that today " dies for those " distortion’s generators. "" wrm0325: do you know whom speaked ( seriously speaking ) for the first time about those AC,FR, SAEC, MAXs, etc. tonearm or the real DD alternative through Technics/Denon and the like or a real alternative to LOMC cartridges named MM/MI cartridges or about the real necesity to use in any audio system, with pasive speakers ( where their woofers crossover 150-hz-200 hz and up ), active subwoofers or the DD TT set up with out plinth or to stay away from 12" and upper tonearms or non-damped tonearms ? IMHO was me and in all cases I gave wide explanations about as I always do. In each Agoner's laughed of me in my face with their posts and I'm not talking ( example: DD TT advise by me. ) of Rega owners ( no offense to Rega or its owners. ) but Walker TT owners, Ravens and other remarkable BD TTs of this level that today use DD Technics and other DD designs instead the big BD names. As I said the DD is a real alternative. Btw, " my superhero " is always MUSIC and LOW DISTORTIONS and learn how to mantain it at minimum. In the other side, I own 6-7 diferent headphones sets including Stax and I learned throught it and through the listening of live music and other experiences that the right way to listen music at home is through sopeakers because things are that the human been listen and capture the sounds through all its BODY not only ears. We " hear " sound frequencies through our head hair and whole body hair and through our skin and bones. Sop the headphones is an incomplete experience that preclude you can detect some kind of distortion and music information. I’m not douing a critic for your way of listening, so stay calm about and make a research for your self and if I’m wrong I appreciated return and share with all of us. Enough for now. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
I think I have a sense of what Raul is talking about. He has mentioned that he has or is familiar with and likes a Kuzma 4P. I have one of these on a restored and modified Luxman PD444, mounted together with two vintage SME 3012R 12" arms. This SME has the heavier stainless steel wand that improves significantly on performance and versatility with MC cartridges compared to aluminum wanded 3012s. Within the SME hierarchy I much prefer the 3012R over an SME IV. This three-armed PD444 has had a rotation of MM/MI and MC cartridges of widely varying compliance, to the point that each tonearm has revealed a few personality traits that are independent of cartridge compliance. Except for these consistent traits, I don’t hear much difference between these arms across a wide range of cartridge compliances. The Kuzma is absolutely free of HF noise artifacts. Its spooky calmness suggests either a slight HF roll-off, or if not roll-off, then damping at a threshold that might be confused by "uneducated" ears as a roll-off or loss of air or extension. As I have the same reaction to very low-noise SS electronics like my Pass XP-25 phono stage or XA-160.8 monoblocks, I’m coming around to the idea that my ears have been reeducated to listen for what’s missing(distortions) as much as what’s included(music). I don’t much miss an all-tube system. I suspect that one reason the 4P is so good with both low- and medium-compliance cartridges is its exceptionally smooth but tight bearings. I don’t think it’s really possible to separate the contribution of tonearm effective mass from the variable of bearing friction(which presents resistance to inertial mass), or to consider resonance independent of bearing design. Point bearings may be particularly good in dissipating vibration into heat in ways that balls in races are not, and in an arm with point bearings, four points may be better than one. It may even be true that approaching SOTA in a modern tonearm, a relatively frictionless bearing could force us to rethink the inertial mass problem. I’m inclined to consider the 3012R as more neutral than the 4P, partly by virtue of its particularly open and alive sound-- similar to what Raul alludes to as favorable to Japanese audiophiles of the vintage era. If these be distortions, then at this level of performance I’m willing to accept even subtle distortions into the realm of taste.
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Hi Stingreen, Any discussion should result in at least some dispute to be interesting. Otherwise ''it'' will be boring. Now considering your violin ''argument''. I never understood why all those composers wrote for this anemic, shrill and shabby looking and sounding instrument in any orchestra? As you confessed yourself the ''thing'' sounds different everywhere and even under your own chin. What about our expensive speakers and the rest of our equaly expensieve other gear? Well independent from the amount of money spend I have never heard any violin sounding well. Or , to be more pricise, as it should in the so called ''reality''. One should listen to the guitar music instead. The strings are fast the fundamentals as easy to hear as the harmonics an ideal instrument to judge any system. Even better to judge carts. That is anyway what I do. |
Why is everyone so much against Raul's opinions. This site is for interested parties to discuss...not to degrade others or their views. Let Raul tell us of his findings, and spur us to examine .....accept or reject those findings to satisfy our own selves. This place suppose to be fun. I'm a violinist, and I know my violin sounds different everywhere I go...and different the way I hear it under my chin, or on recordings. Let everyone relax and enjoy the value that music brings to us.
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Who would take as serious any adjustment advice from a lawyer? The enigma is this. Nobody trust lawyers except when one needs one. But then the one who needs one hope that his is omnipotent. This fact encourages me for the following suggestions for the FR 64/66 adjustments: 1, The lateral balance should be 100% level in order to keep the pressure on both bearings equal; 2, The anti-skate should be at its minimum with the small weight; 3, The original headshell should be substituted for ,say, Orsonic (the heavy kind), Sumiko or Arche (the best); 4. One should experiment with dynamic and static VTF. One third dynamic two third static. Dover suggested this method to me.
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Look, this thread has become ridiculously long over what is in reality a very simple subject.
Having both the 66 and the Jelco (and 26 other tonearms that are not VPI's)and way more than 71 cartridges I can say that the 66 is better in so many ways it is ridiculous, that was the question. Go out and drive a car, have some fun, the question is answered. The real question is why would a dealer sell a table with a Jelco arm as a high end product??????????
The biggest problem I can see in this thread is customers buying stuff that a dealer recommends because you can't get it discounted. Dealers are for the most part full of crap and would sell lettuce if they could make a living at it. It amazes me that after 50 years of high end audio anyone believes what a dealer tells them!!! VPI has the only table in Class A+ and three tables in Class A and yet dealers will push items you cannot get anywhere else, simply so they do not have to discount it.
Being retired I can say whatever I want to say and about whoever I want to say it, great feeling because I really know this business. Half the turntables and arms are grossly overpriced, be careful out there, you are paying for a dealer markup, importing fees, shipping, distributor costs, and the pricing based on what they can get from some dummy with a million dollars.
Like that Jelco arm, if you knew what that cost you would puke.
Yes, I will be making the Lineage gimbaled 3D printed arm, it is amazing, and it will be reasonably priced.
The ET is one of the best arms ever made, even today it is still world class.
HW |
Dear Chris, There is this German life advice or advice for life: ''Wein, Weiber und Gesang''. I only substituted ''wein'' for Slivovitz and ''Gesang'' for the more general expression ''music''. However my FR-64 addiction is caused by the so called ''German group'' of which Raul is /was so fond. BTW don't worry ; Slivovitz get better with age. Like your former compatriote. |
Halco and Nandric,
Thank you both so much for your advice. It is greatly appreciated and listened to. Your ( and others ) experience far exceeds my own.
Halcro,
I can assure you that your original assessment of my intent is completely correct. A little history, I guess.
Bought my first real audio system back in 2000 when I got divorced and finally had a little freedom in my life. The analog front end consisted of The VPI Aries MK1, VPI JMW 10, VPI Synchronous Drive, and Grado Statement feeding the Sonic Frontiers Phono 1. I also started buying a lot of vinyl to listen to, mostly older classic rock ( have a GREAT local place w/ extensive used vinyl for sale ), and the re-issue stuff ( MoFi,DCC,etc ). I was in complete audio bliss for about 5 yrs until my audio world was turned on its head.
Turns out that a member of our golfing group that I had just met is a complete audio nut. He also has deep pockets. After we finished playing golf one Sunday morning, he convinces me to follow him to his home about 1/2 hr. away. Upon arrival, we go to a storage area under the stairs, and inside is a Mitch Cotter turntable and his record collection. They had been stored there for 15 yrs. These records are the under 20 cuts I mentioned before, and obviously the source of the FR66s. I still wouldn't have a clue about any of this stuff had I not received these gifts. I started doing some studying because I now possessed them.
I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. Purchased the PHONO1 based upon positive reviews and that fact that a local dealer who was a friend carried the SF line. Purchased the VPI and the Grado from an internet retailer based upon reviews and the salesman's recommendations. The fact that everything went together so nicely was just luck, as I certainly had no idea what was going on.
Fast forward a few years, and the Denon part of the Mitch Cotter dies. After extensive efforts to find a repair place and many conversations w/ potential repairers, I decided to abandon repair of the Denon DD. The owner of the now defunct Choir Audio kindly built for me the platter, bearing,motor and speed control from his Choir One table. His website is still up if anyone cares to see what that is. I abandoned the spring loading of the Cotter, but I used the top plate mounted on a bunch of Vibrapods and fastened the bearing assembly to it, hooked up a makeshift motor mount, and now had a belt driven high end turntable mounted to the Cotter baseplate and still using the FR66s. ( I had since sold the VPI stuff. Don't need two tables ) Sounded absolutely glorious, but sure looked like, much to my wife's chagrin, a crude Rube Goldbergh affair.
Well, fast forward some more and my golfing buddy and I have remained best friends since then. I go to his place as often as possible to listen to his headphone based SOTA digital system, and he comes here sporadically to listen to vinyl ( btw, I still get his hand-me-downs, of which the Stax gear I listed is to be included ).
A while back, while here, he said he was tired of looking at my turntable contraption and he wanted to put a new table in my house. He has bought most of his stuff from a dealer in NYC, and since he wanted to buy from him out of loyalty, the Blackbird w/ the Jelco arm and Arche headshell ended up in my living room. Otherwise, w/o question, a new VPI set-up would be here instead, but that dealer did not carry VPI.
The Denon DL103r is my cartridge. I procured the Midas body and fitted it. The Koetsu is from my buddy from the original gift of the records and Cotter. After a couple of years of use on the Cotter, the suspension collapsed. It was from the 80's and was built by the old man. It sat there while I used my Denon until the search for the new table began, when it was sent back to Koetsu for a total rebuild at my friends expense.
So here we are. I compared both arms and the rest is history.
Were it not for the generosity of my friend, I still wouldn't have a clue about the FR,Cotter, or any of his other hand me downs. I'm semi-retired now, and certainly can't afford this kind of stuff and would never have been exposed to it were it not for him.
So, you see, I certainly have a very limited knowledge base compared to you guys, which is why I came here to ask the question.
Regarding that question, it's time to put this to rest. The new tonearm was also going to be courtesy of my buddy. I've informed him that I'll be keeping the FR66s. It's time to get off this bandwagon and spend what little spare time I have listening to music, and not studying what may be a new acquisition instead.
So to all who contributed, my sincerest thanks for your input and advice.
The FR66s stays.
Cheers, Crazy Bill
P.S. Still would like to get a copy of that old thread I mentioned before if anyone may have it.
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Halcro
The Dynavector is a monster of an arm (1.5Kg) and does not fare well mounted on sprung turntables or those with flimsy armboards. A massive separate armpod is ideal for this tonearm....and is recommended by Dynavector themselves.
I don’t know whether you mounted both arms identically Chris....but if you did, perhaps there is a fault with one or both arms? No faults worked as designed Henry. My DV505 and the FR64s was mounted on a 100 lb Jean Nantais TT. but you already knew that. Halcro - I find no significant differences in the frequency response (from top to bottom) between the two.. Interesting - did you not also say in another forum that you found no differences between your Belt and DD turntables too? You know, during my Audiophile Turntable Bedlam phase - I found differences between idler, belt, thread and DD in my room. All I can say Henry would be what I already said on your virtual page - look to your speaker placement. btw - I did not say or refer to frequency response (top to bottom) in my last post. I was discussing differences in DB levels at low frequencies (45 to about 70 hz) with the 57’s. nandric - Well I nearly forget how those work because I use (one of) my FR-64 continual. It is more than a tonearm it
is a love affair. I think Nicola likes his FR64 so much because when he lets the cuing lever down, its slow movement before it touches the vinyl, gives him time to top up with Slivovitz (grin) Nicola - that bottle I told you about containing what looks like water is still untouched. Does it age well ? |
Well there are few rich people like Thuchan who can afford whatever he wants. But the most of us are poor in comparison so we need to be smart. Now regarding the choice between the FR-64 and FR-66 the choice is very easy and obvious. First the FR-64 is the most beautiful tonearm ever made. The FR-66 is too rough in comparison with possible afvantange for one's defense but for this kind of monay one can buy 10 Kalashnikofs. Some Aussie stated that FR-64 is a bargain in general which imply tremendous advantage against the FR-66. My good friend Dertonarm stated that the FR-66 is (only) SLIGHTLY better. So, obviously, those who own the FR-66 want to pretend to be rich. I own 3 x FR 64 + Ikeda 345 (for comparison sake) but also Triplanar VII and Reed 3P. Well I nearly forget how those work because I use (one of) my FR-64 continual. It is more than a tonearm it is a love affair. |
OK Crazy Bill....you've piqued my curiosity.... I originally took your Thread at face value as someone, although not at novice stature....seeking the advice of more experienced audiophiles. But your answers on this Forum, and your descriptions of your equipment and experiences display the fact that you are way beyond novice stature and appear in fact. just as experienced as those to whom you address your query... And then the question arises.....who on this planet owns a Fidelity Research FR66s tonearm (which today, costs in excess of $8,000 used...if you can find one) other than an experienced audio connoisseur..❓👀 Are you having a lend of us...because if you own an FR-66s, you KNOW how good it is⁉️ Despite my doubts....I will still continue to treat your Post as legitimate for the time being 🤓 It is impossible today, to audition all the equipment one is considering purchasing, in one's own system. This is especially so with tonearms and cartridges, and we all become more reliant on Reviews and others' experiences to help guide us to a 'Short List'. The problem with Reviewers is that with Analogue in particular...there are only one or two who have heard the very best turntables, tonearms and cartridges in their reference systems. And even then.....it is only the latest and current equipment which they have heard because of their employment conditions with Audio publications. This means that the great vintage analogue equipment of the past 40 years is generally unheard by these two reviewers...and let there be no mistake....the greatest turntables of the past (like the Garrards and Thorens, the EMT idlers, the Micro Seiki heavy belt-drives and the classic uber Japanese direct drives) have not been bettered by modern decks. The same situation exists for the great vintage Japanese tonearms and also the great vintage cartridges like the Ortofon SPUs, EMTs and Fidelity Research FR-7 series but especially the MMs which reached their zenith 35 years ago and are generally forgotten....not only by reviewers...but also by the great unwashed masses 😂 So who can one rely on for advice about tonearms and cartridges...? A successful professional tonearm designer/manufacturer would be one I would heed, as he would have listened to many in his pursuit for excellence. That's why Harry Weisfeld's advice to keep the FR-66s speaks volumes despite his understandable attachment to his own brand. Another course...and one I have followed....is to find an audiophile so dedicated and unrestricted in his pursuit for the 'best'..that he has listened to (and owned) ONLY the very best audio equipment from every age and manufacturer ever made 👅 And if you find two or three such fanatics via the Internet, you will see a general thread of agreement in their ultimate choices. http://audiocirc.comThis is the Blog of Thuchan who is a Bavarian audiophile who currently owns 71 cartridges, has literally owned dozens of tonearms and even dozens of turntables. A close examination of the equipment he owns (and has owned) is convincingly mind-boggling. He has no agenda other than the pursuit of excellence....and as far as I am concerned, he has done a lot of my audio 'sifting' for me. There is no possibility that I will ever have the opportunity to hear all the tonearms and cartridges that Thuchan has...so why not take advantage of his experiences. If you want good objective experienced advice Crazy Bill....you should find yourself a Thuchan 👍 |
Another example of Raul's inexhaustible supply of EGO.
You seem to have ALL the answers.
The rest of us should just go home.
For the record, I find my FR66s to be the easiest tonearm to set up that I have ever used. AAMOF, I don't see how it could be easier. Everything just snaps, STS, into place. My JMW-10 and Jelco arms were significantly different and more time consuming.
Isn't it funny ( actually, it's not ) that Raul quotes one example of someone whose experience supports his mantra ( and this is nothing against ct0517 ) and he declares it the law of the land. Well Raul, if we were to take a poll on the way you call this issue, I'm going to guess the numbers would not be to your liking.
WHO CARES ? We all judge things by what our ears tell us. The problem is, when our ears don't agree with yours you call us WRONG and you are automatically right.
You've made your point, you don't much care for the steel versions of the FR series of arms, so unless you wish to CONSTRUCTIVELY add some thoughts to my next paragraph., please stay away.
OK guys, I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. Very, very much appreciated. But the story goes on.
It appears my budget has been increased to the 10K area, so I'm sure this is going to murky the waters somewhat. But that budget increase opens up a whole new world, STS, of tonearms available to my use. The Durands, Reeds, and others come to mind. Since I'm getting old, and this will be my last analog purchase ( probably except maybe for a cartridge change ), I want to get it right.
So, given the increase in the ceiling of my budget, any new thoughts on whether to keep the FR66s or go with a modern arm w/ the budget topped at 10K ? Linear trackers, of course, would be considered, as long as they can be mounted on the Blackbird w/o difficulty. Also, the ultimate arbiter is the sound quality, not ease of set-up or changing cartridges or anything else. Just the sound quality of the arm and its ability to get out of the way for the cartridge to do it's thing, STS.
Again, many, many thanks, and enjoy the music.
Cheers, Crazy Bill
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Dear ct0517: Your self experiences about needs no further explanations and as you said that FR ( worst in the 66 because its higher non damped mass. ) showed that LF resonance ( read: DISTORTIONS. ) and that’s was what you was more sensitive aware but that kind of distortions happen in all the frequency spectrum alongn its harmonics distortions in a non damped tonearm.
In can bring now another " fatal " experience through an agoner that I did not want it to post because in this thread are at least to gentlemans that because they feel not good enough builded a " superhero " ( that’s what ignorance can makes when we have not self arguments. ) that is that FR seller.
In this agoner experience this gentleman the in good faith audiophile not only bought the FR tonearm but it boughts a new cartridge and tonearm cable under that " superhero " advise to make in the audiophile system a test to prove that the FR tonearm makes dust the ET2 tonearm that the agoner owned in those times and not only that but this gentleman followed any single advise from the " superhero " to make the set up. Here it’s the final result posted by the ET2 owner who invested big dollars to made that test:
""""" First of all, I want to say thanks to Dertonarm for starting me on this journey and all of the help he gave me in setting up my arm. As some of you recall, I purchased a Fidelity Research FR64s, a NOS Orsonic headshell, and an AQ LeoPard tonearm cable. This was all mounted on a new armboard on my VPI TNT table. After I had removed the ET-2 from the TNT and while I was waiting for the new arm and all of the other parts to arrive, I went ahead and did some maintenance to the TNT. I removed the bearing assembly and took it to a machinist for inspection. He didn’t like the fact that there was .004 clearance between the spindle and bushing. He pressed out the old bushings, machined new ones, line bored them, and pressed them in. There is now .001 clearance between the spindle and the new bushings. The machinist also micro polished the spindle, cleaned all of the remaining parts, put in new oil, and declared it finished. Dertonarm was emphatic that I install the FR64s 231.5 mm from the spindle to the center of the bearing instead of 230mm as the manual recommends (as well as the template FR provide with the arm. The machinist made a tool from barstock that fits over the spindle of the TNT and has a hole drilled at the other end with the center at exactly 231.5mm. He machined a tramel point that fits in the hole so you can mark the armboard with the exact spot for the correct distance. This tool was used on my new armboard and the hole was precisely drilled for the FR64s. I used the Dennesen Soundtracker to set up the cartridge as recommended by Dertonarm and VTF was set using a digital scale. I have the SDS for my TNT and speed was checked and set using the KAB strobe. I am telling you all of this so that you understand that I went through great pains to install this arm correctly. The cartridge I used during this time was my almost new Benz Glider SL.
I found the FR64s much more difficult/time consuming to set up compared to other pivoted arms I have used over the years. Some of you may disagree, but this is my experience. Most pivoted arms, once you have the cartridge installed, you slide on the main counterweight, make sure the anti-skating is set to zero, move the counterweight until the arm floats level, set the counterweight scale to 0, and then turn it until you have the correct VTF and bingo-Jed’s a millionaire. Then you set your anti-skating for whatever makes your socks roll up and down, and your pretty much done. After that you just start dialing your cartridge alignment in with your favorite alignment jig and readjust your VTF. Not so with the FR64s. The FR64s has a main counterweight, a dynamic stabilizer weight, and an anti-skating weight that all must be installed. I am not going to go through all of the necessary steps to get this arm set up, but trust me, if you have never set up a FR64s, it is more difficult than your average pivoted arm that I am used to. Again thanks to Dertonarm for all of the help during this process and Syntax offered some help to me as well which I also appreciate.
Before I removed the ET-2 I broke out a NOS Maxell UD 35-180 tape (I love this tape by the way). I recorded a selection of songs (at 15 ips 2 track on my Otari MX-55)that would showcase the FR64s arm’s ability to boogie in the bass as well as track the many dynamic swings that many of these cuts have. I recorded the following songs:
Lyle Lovett-My baby don’t tolerate
Lucinda Williams-Righteously
Herb Alpert-Rotation (from the MoFi version)
Talking Heads-Burning down the house
Herbie Hancock-Rocket (from the 12" single)
After I had the FR64s installed for about a week and had it as tweaked out as I knew how to make it, I re-recorded the above selections in reverse order on the same tape. That way at least I had one cut that would play back to back.
Now some of you had sent me emails asking if I had any preliminary findings to share and I demurred. I never claimed to have the fastest ears in the west so I like to take my time and make sure I know what I am talking about so I don’t have to eat a plateful of crow later (which I have certainly done before). Well, the jury is in for me, and it is my opinion that the ET-2 is much the better arm. The only thing the ET-2 gives up to the FR64s is a bit of bass punch, but I don’t think the bass from the 64s sounds as natural as that from the ET-2. The bass from the 64s almost seems detached from the rest of the music if that makes any sense. There is a myth that linear tracking arms don’t have good bass or can’t reproduce the bottom octave at all. This is nonsense in my opinion. I can speak for the ET-2 and tell you confidently that it reproduce great bass............--.-..........-.-..
In closing, I know that the FR64s is not the most expensive pivoted arm in the world and some of you may sniff your upturned nose and say I should have used a "better" arm. I am really not going to listen to any of that drivel. I spent around $3K setting up this experiment and I know that the FR64s is considered a damn fine tonearm which is why I bought it. ..............
I reinstalled my ET-2 last night and I haven’t stopped grinning since. .....
I stayed up until way-late o’clock last night because I just didn’t want to stop listening to music. Over and out . """""
Chris, there is no doubt that a non damped or not well damped all metal lon tonearm can’t be a " DISTORTIONS GENERATOR ".
That some persons like it is only because they are not trained to discriminate about. That’s why the post answering you where that that LF resonance does not exist in his experiences with. So what is happening with that gentleman, easy: his ignorance level is way diferent from yours or the other agoner experience I posted here and diferent from my ignorance level.
Sad to say it but for me it's clear that wrm0325 can't discriminate about distortions.
Your ET is a champ and as I told you in your thread an icon in the tonearms history.
Regrads and enjoy tyhe music,
R.
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